Group B - Slovakia V England & Russia V Wales

[pearcey_90]

Expect to see that come last 16 game, but it won't.

Then it's if it's diamond with Lallana behind a Kane/Vardy, or 4-3-3 with one from Kane/Vardy/Sturridge outwide.

[Mr Adam]

God that was terrible.

Henderson is a shockingIy bad footballer.

This is such an easy opinion to have it seems. Think he was one of England's better players tonight.

Can't see anyway at all he can be described as "shockingly" bad.

[Rebs]

I thought Henderson was good.

[Mr Adam]

Despite some of the hilarious over reactions in here, I think we will be much, much better against better teams. We are very poor at breaking down teams that sit back, but will be decent on the counter. We just haven't had the chance to counter.

[Darren Moores Mum]

Seriously don't know how anybody can say Henderson was anything but awful tonight. His delivery was frankly embarrassing. He had 4 or 5 corners that hit the first man and 3 or 4 crosse that sailed clean over every single player on the pitch. Dreadful for an international footballer.

Offered entirely nothing that anybody else of a supposed international level footballer could do at his best, and at his worst he was shocking.

[Mr Adam]

Seriously don't know how anybody can say Henderson was anything but awful tonight. His delivery was frankly embarrassing. He had 4 or 5 corners that hit the first man and 3 or 4 crosse that sailed clean over every single player on the pitch. Dreadful for an international footballer.

Offered entirely nothing that anybody else of a supposed international level footballer could do at his best, and at his worst he was shocking.

He created our 3 best chances

- over the top ball to Vardy - should have scored

- chipped cross to Alli - should have scored

- through ball to Clyne - cross should have been converted.

But lets ignore everything decent he does

[toon_84]

You just know Roy is pleased with the clean sheet and the fact we kept Hamsik quiet.

[Pukey]

Despite some of the hilarious over reactions in here, I think we will be much, much better against better teams. We are very poor at breaking down teams that sit back, but will be decent on the counter. We just haven't had the chance to counter.

The one time we properly countered, Sterling blew the chance (vs Wales) We sorta half countered a couple of times vs Russia but kept slowing it down (Sterling again mostly )

Agree overall. This isn't some massive crisis. Not saying there's not criticisms to be had but people are really massively overreacting. My Facebook feed is just impossible to look at atm. Any team other than Portugal from Group F is likely to play the same way though and we'll come up against the same problems. Still don't think teams massively want to play us though.

And I'll join in the bemusement at the Henderson complaints. Utterly dreadful at set pieces but other than that he did well. More than happy with him being a squad player.

[ajw10]

He created our 3 best chances

- over the top ball to Vardy - should have scored

- chipped cross to Alli - should have scored

- through ball to Clyne - cross should have been converted.

But lets ignore everything decent he does

People decided before the match that Henderson was going to be rubbish

[DeafParrot]

Hart

Clyne

Smalling

Cahill

Rose

Dier

Henderson

Rooney

Alli

Kane

Sturridge

Would be how I start next game. Clyne over Walker just personal preference, Walker will play though.

[Darren Moores Mum]

He created our 3 best chances

- over the top ball to Vardy - should have scored

- chipped cross to Alli - should have scored

- through ball to Clyne - cross should have been converted.

But lets ignore everything decent he does

Likewise, let's ignore the dreadful passing he made as well. You're actually using a through ball for a cross as an example where he was good, yeah? He gave the ball away, he hit the first man at every set piece, he over hit every single cross he had. But yeah, I'm the one ignoring things.

I reiterate, he offered absolutely nothing that I would expect from another player in his position at his best. At his worst he was appalling and couldn't deliver even a half decent ball.

[Mr Adam]

Likewise, let's ignore the dreadful passing he made as well. You're actually using a through ball for a cross as an example where he was good, yeah? He gave the ball away, he hit the first man at every set piece, he over hit every single cross he had. But yeah, I'm the one ignoring things.

I reiterate, he offered absolutely nothing that I would expect from another player in his position at his best. At his worst he was appalling and couldn't deliver even a half decent ball.

Wow:

The Telegraph

Jordan Henderson

Another selection headache for Hodgson. Played some superb defence-splitting passes, particularly for Vardy’s early chance. Also a major goal threat with two shots blocked. 8

The Guardian

Jordan Henderson 7

Had two shots blocked after arriving late in the box and his passing was crisp and probing. Blew away doubts about his fitness and offers Hodgson the option of extra running power.

.

They were watching something else as well then? Both gave most England players a 6 - 6.5.

[BoroPhil]

Henderson was abysmal. Every time something bad happened, it was him. A number of occasions we got into a good position, and he just played it first time without actually putting his head up and thinking about it. I don't think he is a bad player, but he is lucky to be in the squad and was poor tonight.

As for England overall, 2nd place is fine and we've dominated this group. We can consider ourselves unlucky not to finish top but you have to take your chances.

[Pukey]

Likewise, let's ignore the dreadful passing he made as well. You're actually using a through ball for a cross as an example where he was good, yeah? He gave the ball away, he hit the first man at every set piece, he over hit every single cross he had. But yeah, I'm the one ignoring things.

I reiterate, he offered absolutely nothing that I would expect from another player in his position at his best. At his worst he was appalling and couldn't deliver even a half decent ball.

73 out of 80 passes is not "dreadful" passing whichever way you look at it

[Rebs]

Henderson was more mobile than I've ever seen him before...he was the only midfielder from us in the first 60 minutes who was forcing the play and dragging Slovakian players back towards their goal. His passing was sometimes hit and miss, but he did create the chances that Mr A has listed...overall I thought he was our best player...his crossing was probably his worst play tonight, but we never really played a crossing game where there would be chances from where he was crossing it from. I think the word you use for his game tonight is 'tidy'...but then I just remember that being used in a welsh accent in a tv show for some reason and so that isn't a good thing

[Pangaea]

What did people make of Vardy? Actually thought he had been subbed off, because he was completely missing in the 2nd half. Lively in the first, but when there isn't room to exploit, he's much less effective.

[BoroPhil]

tbf Mr.Adam, I googled England player ratings, and I found 4 others straight away that gave him 6-6-5. you've just picked the best 2 there.

[BoroPhil]

What did people make of Vardy? Actually thought he had been subbed off, because he was completely missing in the 2nd half. Lively in the first, but when there isn't room to exploit, he's much less effective.

yep.

same with Lallana, some of them faded badly 2nd half.

[Pukey]

What did people make of Vardy? Actually thought he had been subbed off, because he was completely missing in the 2nd half. Lively in the first, but when there isn't room to exploit, he's much less effective.

Quiet second half. His game is about pace and when teams play as deep as Slovakia, it's very difficult to use his best asset.

[toon_84]

What did people make of Vardy? Actually thought he had been subbed off, because he was completely missing in the 2nd half. Lively in the first, but when there isn't room to exploit, he's much less effective.

When your A game is running in behind and nobody is playing those balls then youre ****ed. Vardy was never going to do well with Roys tactics tonight.

[Mr Adam]

tbf Mr.Adam, I googled England player ratings, and I found 4 others straight away that gave him 6-6-5. you've just picked the best 2 there.

Ok fair enough but genuinely they're the only 2 I've read

[Rebs]

Vardy maybe is best used as an impact sub really - Kane and Strurridge are probably a better partnership to start.

[Darren Moores Mum]

73 out of 80 passes is not "dreadful" passing whichever way you look at it

Is making passes equal to incisive or decent passing? Knocking the ball sidewards or (as in the last few minutes) backwards when there are other options doesn't = good passing.

Maybe I made up the numerous set pieces hit straight at the first man, as well as the number of crosses that were hit way over everybody's head. I don't know.

Both Henderson and Wilshere were poor and should not have been in the first XI.

As a team though, I go back to the view that I'd actually rather we played an attacking side like Portugal or France. We appear to be very weak at breaking negative sides down. Hungary or Iceland isn't an 'easy' draw for us. We may actually improve playing against a side that isn't afraid to attack us.

[Mr Adam]

Maybe I made up the numerous set pieces hit straight at the first man, as well as the number of crosses that were hit way over everybody's head. I don't know.

No, you haven't made them up, but "numerous" is maybe 3 or 4? But everybody was doing it. Clyne overhit quite a few and by most consensus (including mine) was our MotM. He overhit a few because he made so many attempts at crosses, as all our play came down the right, usually via Henderson to Clyne I will add. It's just for some reason whenever Henderson does it everyone notices, probably because they had doubts about him before the game even started.

What I will say is he shouldn't be taking corners - he's pants at them.

[Pukey]

Is making passes equal to incisive or decent passing? Knocking the ball sidewards or (as in the last few minutes) backwards when there are other options doesn't = good passing.

Maybe I made up the numerous set pieces hit straight at the first man, as well as the number of crosses that were hit way over everybody's head. I don't know.

Both Henderson and Wilshere were poor and should not have been in the first XI.

We're probably just never going to agree on this. I thought most of his passes were forward thinking and as incisive as any other player on the pitch. The backwards pass in the last second made no sense, I'll grant that. And I've already said his set pieces were **** so at least we can agree on that He did overhit a couple of crosses but also played a brilliant one to Alli who should have scored.

Not advocating Henderson starts other games but I'm happy with him being in the squad if suspensions/injuries mean it's necessary.

[Darren Moores Mum]

Perhaps. Woy has form in giving the wrong player the set piece duty.

I don't understand the change for Clyne anyway. Walker did nothing wrong against Wales, in fact he was one of the best players for me. It was a bizarre move. I understand Vardy and Sturridge. I don't understand Clyne, Henderson and Wilshere.

[craigcwwe]

What did people make of Vardy? Actually thought he had been subbed off, because he was completely missing in the 2nd half. Lively in the first, but when there isn't room to exploit, he's much less effective.

Actually forgot he was playing in the second half. He doesn't really get involved in the game too much.

[craigcwwe]

Vardy maybe is best used as an impact sub really - Kane and Strurridge are probably a better partnership to start.

Yeah I'd agree with this.

I think with the way England play, control the game, plenty of possession, play high up the pitch, pretty much the complete opposite of Leicester then you lose something with Vardy. Bringing in on late in a game to harry the opposition or to try and get a goal would perhaps be better than starting him. Sturridge has a better all round game compared to Vardy and links up better.

[aggressive minor]

So as people have said, Kane should start and Vardy should come on as sub.

[Baptista_8]

Henderson was good overall and he did create our best chances. Crossing was terrible though.

[Hom3r]

Only properly reading through the thread now, baffled by the Henderson criticism. Created our best chances (Vardy, ball for Clyne outwide to whip in, Kane) and was our one midfielder so far who has got into dangerous positions in the box and moved the ball a bit quicker when Dier/Rooney/Wilshere were making really short passes between themselves. Made himself undroppable for me especially as Alli was **** again.

Sure his final ball wasn't always there but it seemed more likely to click than the rest of them just lining up outside the box not doing anything with it.

[Sheps.]

Guess that's football, different people see different things, but I genuinely thought Henderson was one of, if not the worst performer on the pitch. He had two great chances to pick someone out in the box and failed to deliver a good enough ball - one of them was outrageously poor, think it was on the half volley? I'm not one to unfairly call out players either, I just don't think Henderson is good enough (or ever has been) and he did nothing to disprove that tonight. His link up play with Clyne was encouraging, but it lasted all of 5 minutes before he went back to being utter dross.

Also, no more Sturridge out wide please. He doesn't have the discipline to stay wide, and he's much more effective in the centre with his movement anyway. In fact, no more shoehorning strikers into wide positions in general. If we wanted to play with wingers, we should have brought some.

[Guest]

Henderson was fine, and the comments that his passing % was good because he knocked em sideways or backwards are obviously glossing over the fact he created two clear cut chances and another good chance.

Bodies in the box was an issue again tonight, the amount of times again tonight that crosses came in and there were just two players in the box was noteciable again.

[chopra_hill]

**** me the fans of Wales 'B' are an angry lot tonight :D

[daylight]

Err' date=' that is inevitable. We eventually are going to have to play someone good.

Going 'ugh NOW we have to play portugal in the QFs' is like getting to the final and saying 'OH FFS now we have to play spain, france, Germany' etc[/quote']

You asked a question and you got an answer.

Also you said Portugal were pony so it's not like playing Spain in the final right?

[Wiggins Top Boys]

It's the equivalent. You expect to play a team like portugal in the QFs because they should be making them, they're just not as good as people seem to think, although i appreciate opinions in here are massively biased towards the negative for some reason

[pearcey_90]

Despite some of the hilarious over reactions in here, I think we will be much, much better against better teams. We are very poor at breaking down teams that sit back, but will be decent on the counter. We just haven't had the chance to counter.

Worry against the better teams is then our defence. Go one behind which can easily happen we'll find ourselves against a similar tight defence, just sides better on counter. All tournament, when a ball has gone in or around our box we've looked like ******** out and that's happened only once each game. Yesterday it only happened once when Smalling decided to chest it back to the keeper but killed the ball dead, striker throws himself at the ball more its 1-0. We always have something like that in our locker which is my concern against better sides.

[Baptista_8]

**** me the fans of Wales 'B' are an angry lot tonight :D

England B works as you have 9 is it? English players in your squad. We have 0 Welsh players mate.

[Bliss Seeker]

I swear we're the only team that looks at QF and SFs and say "ohh we might get them".

We qualified. Despite coming second England were easily the best team in the group, by quite a distance. I'm optimistic.

Well done Wales happy for you guys

[themadsheep2001]

I agree with a lot of this...too many past competitions has seen us out at this stage and look very inept in our play. Overall we have controlled each game and could have walked away with 3 wins...the whole tournament hasn't really seen anyone score massively in each match, so the lack of goals doesn't worry me, I'd be more worried if we couldn't hold on to the ball and create chances...and we've shown we can do that in 3 games now. Now it's on to the knockouts then it just becomes a lottery...we play like we have and we give ourselves a chance...and that is against anyone I've seen so far...we might not win, but we'll give it a good shot I bet.

It's definitely not doom and gloom, it's just frustrating that we are not playing to our own strengths. We want to play through the middle with balls around the corner and using full backs as high support, we should be playing a diamond, we'd create ourselves better sustained opportunities. Best bits of play came when either Lallana or Sturridge were in the pocket. It would also allow us to move the ball more quickly to Vardy through Lallana at 10. Hopefully we will make that change if we get Hungary.

[foofighter23]

just go back to basics lads, 4-4- ****ing 2

the hendo hate is really poor though, could have had 3 assists and a goal or 2, what did the rest do exactly? golden boys kane and vardy? wilshere and rooney...?

get a grip.

[Wiggins Top Boys]

People always focus on the **** bits though. personally i thought Henderson wasn't great but he did provide a few good chances. Wilshere was probably our least effective player but he wasn't that bad. anybody using the words awful, shocking, terrible etc right now needs their heads examined.

[ajw10]

I swear we're the only team that looks at QF and SFs and say "ohh we might get them".

We qualified. Despite coming second England were easily the best team in the group, by quite a distance. I'm optimistic.

Well done Wales happy for you guys

We struggle to create chances against teams that sit deep and we are shaky at the back. We're not that good.

If we get Hungary we might break them down before the 120 minutes are up, but we'll get beat by France in the quarters anyway.

[foolsgold]

We struggle to create chances against teams that sit deep and we are shaky at the back. We're not that good.

If we get Hungary we might break them down before the 120 minutes are up, but we'll get beat by France in the quarters anyway.

This is what I mean about the English mentality though, we're no different to the top teams in the world in this respect. Germany actually lost to Slovakia in May, Spain lost to Georgia, Portugal lost to Cape Verde Islands ffs. Any team would have struggled to break them down last night. The comparison with Wales isn't fair as both Slovakia and Russia will have set up to win the game against Wales, whereas they simply set up to not lose against us.

I'm not worried, though I don't think we're gonna win the damn thing. People just come out as overly critical of England when they want to. Fact is, we've looked solid and completely and utterly controlled each game so far. We've conceded just 2 goals, one of which was a blunder by our keeper from miles out which wouldn't happen on other days.

We shouldn't judge England on these games. The judgement should come when we actually play teams who want to beat us, as that is when it matters.

[Wiggins Top Boys]

This is what I mean about the English mentality though, we're no different to the top teams in the world in this respect. Germany actually lost to Slovakia in May, Spain lost to Georgia, Portugal lost to Cape Verde Islands ffs. Any team would have struggled to break them down last night. The comparison with Wales isn't fair as both Slovakia and Russia will have set up to win the game against Wales, whereas they simply set up to not lose against us.

I'm not worried, though I don't think we're gonna win the damn thing. People just come out as overly critical of England when they want to. Fact is, we've looked solid and completely and utterly controlled each game so far. We've conceded just 2 goals, one of which was a blunder by our keeper from miles out which wouldn't happen on other days.

We shouldn't judge England on these games. The judgement should come when we actually play teams who want to beat us, as that is when it matters.

agree completely. start complaining if we get trounced in the last 16 or QFs without giving it a good shot.

moaning that we couldn't score against teams desperate not to lose and that now we're going to face hungary instead of albania (woe is us) is pointless.

[Darren Moores Mum]

I don't think using friendly results is a fair comparison either though. We've struggled to break down 3 sides this tournament that have been negative in their approach. I don't think Germany or Spain would have had the same issues. Portugal are probably a better comparison but they created a lot of chances in both their games, so I dunno. We'll probably struggle against Hungary or Iceland in the same way, but I'd be more confident playing Portugal as they'll be more open.

I think we'll beat Iceland or Hungary. It'll probably just be very scrappy.

[Baptista_8]

It's a mental thing on the big stage IMO. We didn't fail to break anyone down in qualifying.

[Smiley Dan]

Probably get sticks thrown at me but that first half performance of England was getting close to how I want to see them play. Patient, slowly turned the screw. It helped that Slovakia had zero ambition to retain possession themselves, of course.

What was off was Henderson's over and under hit crosses (he otherwise had a decent game I thought), Wilshere's few small mistakes and the fact we couldn't find that killer ball, or really unlock things.

What's worrying is that this was against Slovakia, not Italy.

It all fell apart as predicted when Wilshere was subbed for Rooney because the midfield ground to a halt with fewer outlets and dumbass cross field balls Rooney insists on playing. Thankfully he gave up after a few overhit ones and just decided on some long range wasted shots instead. Sturridge remains probably the main creative/flair threat upfront.

It's not really running for Alli.

Thought Lallana was excellent again.

             Vardy    
 Lallana                 Sturridge

   Wilshere         Rooney/Henderson          

             Dier
Rose                              Walker

       Smalling  Cahill  

[themadsheep2001]

Probably get sticks thrown at me but that first half performance of England was getting close to how I want to see them play. Patient, slowly turned the screw. It helped that Slovakia had zero ambition to retain possession themselves, of course.

What was off was Henderson's over and under hit crosses (he otherwise had a decent game I thought), Wilshere's few small mistakes and the fact we couldn't find that killer ball, or really unlock things.

What's worrying is that this was against Slovakia, not Italy.

It all fell apart as predicted when Wilshere was subbed for Rooney because the midfield ground to a halt with fewer outlets and dumbass cross field balls Rooney insists on playing. Thankfully he gave up after a few overhit ones and just decided on some long range wasted shots instead. Sturridge remains probably the main creative/flair threat upfront.

It's not really running for Alli.

Thought Lallana was excellent again.

             Vardy    
 Lallana                 Sturridge

   Wilshere         Rooney/Henderson          

             Dier
Rose                              Walker

       Smalling  Cahill  

We didn't have the outlets first half either. We got away with because Lallana is just as comfortable drifting into the pocket as he is wide, things got worse once he was off. We are not a million miles away, but diamond was a much better alternative shape, if we get Hungary who will sit deep, that's the shape we need.

[Cougar2010]

I don't think using friendly results is a fair comparison either though. We've struggled to break down 3 sides this tournament that have been negative in their approach. I don't think Germany or Spain would have had the same issues. Portugal are probably a better comparison but they created a lot of chances in both their games, so I dunno. We'll probably struggle against Hungary or Iceland in the same way, but I'd be more confident playing Portugal as they'll be more open.

I think we'll beat Iceland or Hungary. It'll probably just be very scrappy.

Thats just not true though.

Against both Russia & Slovakia we had more than enough chances to win the game. Its not that we aren't creating them its just that we haven't put them away in the group games.

If you want to compare it to Germany or Spain then lets do that:

Germany v Ukraine - Germany in exactly the same position that England were against Russia except they broke from a Ukraine corner and scored a second deep into injury time.

Germany v Poland - Germany couldn't find the net just like England v Slovakia.

Spain v Czech Rep - Spain scored the only goal of the game on 87 mins.

Spain v Turkey - One of the few games where a dominating side took their chances and were out of sight before the last 20 mins.

So Germany are having just as many issues as we are, maybe they'll find a cutting edge tonight against NI, maybe they won't while Spain seemed to click against Turkey but will it continue?

We've also seen plenty of other teams struggle to break down more defensive sides in the tournament, in fact its become a feature with late goals deciding a high % of games.

Overall we just need to be a bit more clinical when the chances are created.