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Cleon

Meet The Deep Lying Forward

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This is taken from my blog www.sisportscentre.com

When playing FM I like to think outside of the box and I follow no rules or patterns about anything tactical related. So when I am searching for a player I tend to think differently and focus on attributes rather than the position someone plays. This can throw up some very interesting results, it’s not unusual for me to take a striker and make him a fullback or take an attacking midfielder and make him a ball playing defender. It’s part of something I’ve done for as long as I can remember when I play long term games and squad build. With this in mind, I thought I’d share my thinking and show you more about what I’m talking about. I know some people already do similar things but I’ve spoken to a lot of people who would never consider this too, so hopefully this can show you just how beneficial it can be.

In the tactic I use, I plan to make the most of the deep lying forward role. Not only that but I’m ignoring the games recommended attributes needed for the role and going for what I want and need from the role instead. The deep lying forward role is everything the target man role should be imo. The roles aren’t actually that different apart from the deep lying forward being more creative, but he doesn’t need to be. When I want to use a target man I always use this role instead because it offers so much more but is still as useful and will do everything you’d expect the TM role to do. So what I do is breakdown the things I need the role to do and base the attributes the player needs off that. In this case that would be;

Pace/acceleration - The player will be deep and bursting forward.

  • Strength - As I play in England I suspect most teams will have a defensive midfielder. So I need someone who can handle himself if the game becomes physical which I expect it will.
  • Work Rate - He’ll need to work his socks off.
  • Team Work - I need him to understand that he isn’t an individual and that he does have team mates and should work with them as much as he can.
  • Composure - I need someone who won’t get flustered when on the ball and rush his decision making as he’ll be in important areas of the pitch. So it’s vital he can hold his nerve when being bullied physically or when he gets close to goal etc.
  • Vision – The player needs to be able to see all available options currently on for him.

That’s all the things that I need, these are what I call vitals and the player I look to buy should have the majority of the attributes listed above over all the others he has. If he doesn’t then he won’t work like I need him to.

Now you’ve got to remember I’m down in League One and don’t have much money available. If I sell all the clauses currently active then I have around £1 million to spend. So immediately this limits who I can afford to bring in and who actually wants to join me.

With all this in mind I set up some filters on the player search to see if I could find the player I was looking for; I decided to search for all the attributes I mentioned and set the filter to be 13 minimum for each attribute.

I found these 35 players;

(Click images to enlarge)

Attributes.png?resize=300%2C154

None of these are ever going to join me, they’ll beg me to join in a few seasons when I’m winning titles but not yet! So now I had a dilemma and had to change my approach. I decided I’d untick one attribute at a time and see if that brought up any interesting players. First up I did the search without work rate and it threw up no results.Second I searched for for all the attributes excluding teamwork and this time, to my surprise, I had a hit;

Attributes-2.png?resize=300%2C154

I immediately looked at his profile and this is what I saw;

Player-attributes.png?resize=300%2C149

I was pleasantly surprised as he ticks all the boxes I want but his teamwork is lower than I’d have liked. Was this an issue? Not really as his other attributes are far greater than I was expecting and due to the level I play at I’m not going to find the perfect player unless I’m lucky. What you have to do at these levels is make sacrifices and get players who have some or most of the requirements you need. So in a nutshell he was more than perfect for what I was looking for. There is a major drawback though;

Position.png?resize=300%2C252

He’s a leftback!! Is this a major issue? Not at all and isn’t something that would ever stop me buying a player. You can always retrain them. It’s not unusual for me to retrain people to positions you’d not normally expect them to play. Ganso on FM14 I turned into a ball playing defender/Libero and I’m always retraining newgens who are strikers to be full backs, deep-lying playmakers or something similar. So this isn’t off-putting at all.

Now I’ve identified the player I want I need to bring him to the club. Palace want 750k for him which I don’t have at this minute but will in a few days when I shift people on. So what I did was place a bid for him but to get him on loan. Getting him on loan is better than missing out on him completely for now.

I actually posted a picture of this player on Twitter a few weeks ago and said I saw him as my ideal striker and a lot of people mocked me and picked up on things like his off the ball, decisions, technique, passing, agility etc was all low. It’s true they are, but it doesn’t always matter if the player can do the job you require of him. I felt he can do that easily even though he isn’t the world’s greatest player. Plus if he was any better he’d not be willing to come to me would he? He’s still 19 so should have room to improve and tide me over until I can afford and attract better quality. I think people miss this point at times and always look at players being the complete player already and dismiss other players due to what his attributes are like even if he excels at a particular area like the above player. In fact I actually only ended up getting him in the end because the negativity I received spurred me on and made me want to show people just how good he could be doing the things I need. Hopefully I can show that a little further in the article icon_smile.gif?w=474

Within a few days of getting him on-loan I was able to shift some deadwood and raise the funds I needed (it was actually more a wage problem than the transfer fee) and bought him straight away while he was already on loan with me. Once I’d purchased him that’s when the real work starts by training him in a new position and developing his attributes to further the demand I have for the role he’ll be playing at the club.

This is how I decided I’d train him;

ind-training.png?resize=300%2C124

The focus is set to that of a target man as that’s how I want him to act, so this schedule will further work on the attributes needed overall. The attributes this role works on are;

training-attributes.png?resize=300%2C110

Some of those attributes are already high so long term I may find myself changing it again or even in a few months time once he’s accomplished as a striker. I could then focus on individual attributes on a three month rotation for a while. But for the immediate future this is what I’ve chosen especially as most of the training time I allocated to positional training instead to try and make him a striker as quickly as possible.

Role Analysis!

Some of you will probably be wondering why I want to use a deep lying forward who is different to the normal and what benefits it can bring. So let me show you a few examples of what I expect from the individual and what he actually delivers during a match.

Movement

This screenshot shows why I value a more physical type of player rather than a creative minded one for the deep lying role. Ideally the perfect player would be creative and strong.

move.jpg?resize=300%2C149

He is occupying two defenders here in this screenshot so his strength and physicality will help here. It means he should be able to hold his own and not be bullied too badly off the ball compared to someone more dainty!

This is him during the same move a few seconds later;

move2.jpg?resize=300%2C126

He’s about to dart to where the arrow is pointing to in the hope he gets on the end of the cross that’s just happened. This is where his acceleration comes into play and gives him the initial burst of speed he needs, pace would be used if the run was long distance but over short distances it’s acceleration that counts the most.

And this is him about to tap it into the net;

move3.jpg?resize=300%2C125

He has to deal with the challenge of the keeper and the two defenders covering here. So again he needs to be physical to be able to win the ball and get to it in these situations. This was also a reason why I needed someone who was composed and not panic or get flustered in these situations, meaning he wouldn’t rush his decision making or be put off by the keeper and defenders.

stats.jpg?resize=300%2C60

Not bad for a rubbish left back eh?!! icon_smile.gif?w=474

The above sort of move happens a lot. I was going to add a lot more analysis but then I had the idea of doing this for every single player in my squad to give a real sense of what players do during the game, how they all link up and what jobs they really do. So these will be part of a more detailed analysis series at a later date and will feature a lot more about this player too.

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Great stuff and gives me a few ideas. I am looking to develop a Bergkamp clone and one of the great things about Bergkamp was his strength and size, he had all the technique in the world but was physically strong too. I would never have thought of using a LB to develop, but hey if you get good base attributes what's wrong with a bit of molding!

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you sir, are a genius. fair play to you, i need to look at doing this kind of thing
Great stuff and gives me a few ideas. I am looking to develop a Bergkamp clone and one of the great things about Bergkamp was his strength and size, he had all the technique in the world but was physically strong too. I would never have thought of using a LB to develop, but hey if you get good base attributes what's wrong with a bit of molding!
This type of threads give me a boner. Urghhhhh.

Thank you all, with exception of the last one :D

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I really like this approach. It makes a load of sense but sometimes it's easy to get caught up using the scouting system to search for "a midfielder" or a "striker" or "a defender". The person with the perfect blend of attributes could be right under your nose, but you're missing out if you set a position too. In my opinion it's way easier to retrain a position than it is to lift a positionally competent players' attributes up to scratch :thup:

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I would never have thought of this even though its right there in front of our eyes. Very nice approach.

I'm quite intrigued also by the use of a DLF but as a target man. I really liked the target man in fm14, in fm15 I haven't had much luck yet, simply because everyone and his mother seem to throw caution to the wind to get the ball to the TM. So it is interesting to use a DLF as a target man.

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I always play a 4-1-2-2-1 and my front man is always a DLF with a support duty. I totally agree with the whole 'players with target man attributes' working well in this role. It's something I've done on previous saves. Especially more so on LLM saves where you don't always have the funds to go out and buy a really creative DLF.

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I've done this kind of thing a lot over the years, although I must admit my players usually move down the pitch as a rule I have never made a left back a striker. Beautiful post. Just starting my yearly Walsall save down in league 1 I am sure this will be a lot of use to me. You actually make the game more fun to play, I must thank you for all your time and effort.

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Might try looking again at trying out Andy Carroll (if he ever gets fit) in the DLF role after reading this. Excellent stuff Cleon. Couple of questions though. Say if I were to try and use Carroll as a DLF I assume :

a. Less dribbling as a PI? Sounds obvious but I have always wondered with a role when you have the extreme options such as "dribble more" and "dribble less" as an option you are better leaving it at the default? The reason I ask is that Carroll has 11 for dribbling, the same as your player and most big, strong players aren't usually particularly hot on dribbling and I do wonder if the extreme of "dribble less" may actually hamper performance.

b. Also assume a DLF would be better either at default of on "hold position" rather than move into channels? Or do you believe that makes the player too static?

c. With this role how do you utilise runners? If I am right in thinking that you want your midfielders to get beyond the DLF how do you manage that as I find it difficult without using players in the AM roles.

d. Another thing I struggle with when playing with a supporting solo striker is getting him into the box on the end of crosses. With Carroll in any role seemingly he seems by the penalty spot when crosses come in rather than attacking the ball. As a TM A in the past I had him where I wanted him some of the time but others he was isolated. I need a support/attack hybrid role for him!!!! Just interested how you get your supporting strikers into the box and on the end of crosses.

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This reminds me of when Dion Dublin converted to being a centre-back for Aston Villa as he got older.

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This reminds me of when Dion Dublin converted to being a centre-back for Aston Villa as he got older.

To be honest few would have foreseen how well Ryan Giggs would have played as a deep lying central midfielder in later years as well, maybe they should add yoga to the training in FM !!

Also Geoff Hurst started out as a wing-half and was pretty hopeless by all accounts. Ron Greenwood moved him to centre forward and the rest is history. Good god I am showing my age. Most on here would probably have absolutely no idea who Geoff Hurst is!!!

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Malcolm MacDonald was another converted player - full back to striker

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To be honest few would have foreseen how well Ryan Giggs would have played as a deep lying central midfielder in later years as well, maybe they should add yoga to the training in FM !!

Also Geoff Hurst started out as a wing-half and was pretty hopeless by all accounts. Ron Greenwood moved him to centre forward and the rest is history. Good god I am showing my age. Most on here would probably have absolutely no idea who Geoff Hurst is!!!

This reminds me of when John Barnes was converted to a similar role in his Liverpool twilight. Sure he could play incredible through ball, but he literally couldn't run anymore, like a certain other current Captain :lol: Moral of the story? Be careful of remoulding legends :lol:

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Might try looking again at trying out Andy Carroll (if he ever gets fit) in the DLF role after reading this. Excellent stuff Cleon. Couple of questions though. Say if I were to try and use Carroll as a DLF I assume :

a. Less dribbling as a PI? Sounds obvious but I have always wondered with a role when you have the extreme options such as "dribble more" and "dribble less" as an option you are better leaving it at the default? The reason I ask is that Carroll has 11 for dribbling, the same as your player and most big, strong players aren't usually particularly hot on dribbling and I do wonder if the extreme of "dribble less" may actually hamper performance.

b. Also assume a DLF would be better either at default of on "hold position" rather than move into channels? Or do you believe that makes the player too static?

c. With this role how do you utilise runners? If I am right in thinking that you want your midfielders to get beyond the DLF how do you manage that as I find it difficult without using players in the AM roles.

d. Another thing I struggle with when playing with a supporting solo striker is getting him into the box on the end of crosses. With Carroll in any role seemingly he seems by the penalty spot when crosses come in rather than attacking the ball. As a TM A in the past I had him where I wanted him some of the time but others he was isolated. I need a support/attack hybrid role for him!!!! Just interested how you get your supporting strikers into the box and on the end of crosses.

A -The rest of his attributes should be fine for the role, I don't see the need to add a dribble less PI at all even though his dribbling is 11. He should still be able to run with the ball quite fine for most parts.

B - God no. Then he would basically be a static TM which isn't good, leave him default.

C - Well he has a partner playing along side him and a raumdeuter. Plus in midfield he has a roaming play maker busting a gut to get beyond him too. I don't need players going beyond him as such, I just need people to keep up with him and give him the support he needs.

D - Supporting strikers don't really get on the end of the crosses, the whole idea is them being deeper with initial play and attacking later or arriving in the box late. So he's not expected to be high up the pitch to get on the end of crosses regular. Playing a crossing game with a striker who drops deep is kind of pointless imo (in lone striker systems). The 2 ideas just don't go together. If you play a crossing game then your striker should be attack minded like a CF A, AF etc.

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I really like this approach. It makes a load of sense but sometimes it's easy to get caught up using the scouting system to search for "a midfielder" or a "striker" or "a defender". The person with the perfect blend of attributes could be right under your nose, but you're missing out if you set a position too. In my opinion it's way easier to retrain a position than it is to lift a positionally competent players' attributes up to scratch :thup:

Totally agree. Plus it can be a lot cheaper to do if cash is tight.

I would never have thought of this even though its right there in front of our eyes. Very nice approach.

I'm quite intrigued also by the use of a DLF but as a target man. I really liked the target man in fm14, in fm15 I haven't had much luck yet, simply because everyone and his mother seem to throw caution to the wind to get the ball to the TM. So it is interesting to use a DLF as a target man.

I always have done. I find the TM role far too static and the lack of movement is a real killer imo

I always play a 4-2-2-1 and my front man is always a DLF with a support duty. I totally agree with the whole 'players with target man attributes' working well in this role. It's something I've done on previous saves. Especially more so on LLM saves where you don't always have the funds to go out and buy a really creative DLF.

:)

I've done this kind of thing a lot over the years, although I must admit my players usually move down the pitch as a rule I have never made a left back a striker. Beautiful post. Just starting my yearly Walsall save down in league 1 I am sure this will be a lot of use to me. You actually make the game more fun to play, I must thank you for all your time and effort.

Thanks, I really appreciate comments like this as it makes it all worthwhile for me :)

Wow, that was inspiring as always, Cleon! :thup:

Thank you ::)

This reminds me of when Dion Dublin converted to being a centre-back for Aston Villa as he got older.

It also reminds me of Paul Warhurst who Sheffield Wednesday (can't believe I've typed that without saying anything bad about them!) bought as a defender but due to an injury crisis made him a striker for 12 games and he scored 12 goals. He then got a call up for England as a striker :D

To be honest few would have foreseen how well Ryan Giggs would have played as a deep lying central midfielder in later years as well, maybe they should add yoga to the training in FM !!

Also Geoff Hurst started out as a wing-half and was pretty hopeless by all accounts. Ron Greenwood moved him to centre forward and the rest is history. Good god I am showing my age. Most on here would probably have absolutely no idea who Geoff Hurst is!!!

I think its quite common for players over their career to be moved into other positions more regular. I've seen it happen a lot over the years.

Showing your age :D I thought you was around my age 33?

Doing this kind of stuff is half the fun of FM for me. :thup:

You need something to keep you entertained right? I know I do. Player development is all I care about these days on FM as the tactic side of the game bores me to death. Which seems kind of weird to most as I'm always writing about tactics but that's purely just to help people out, I don't actually enjoy it. I'd much rather write about players and their development or other stuff related to squad building. So when I do play the game I'm always looking at ways of playing differently or experimenting. :D

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You need something to keep you entertained right? I know I do. Player development is all I care about these days on FM as the tactic side of the game bores me to death. Which seems kind of weird to most as I'm always writing about tactics but that's purely just to help people out, I don't actually enjoy it. I'd much rather write about players and their development or other stuff related to squad building. So when I do play the game I'm always looking at ways of playing differently or experimenting. :D

I like the tactics, but once it's built, I'm done unless I'm job hopping and have to rebuild to suit each squad, which I don't really do much. Then it always comes down to finding wee gems, and youth development.

I think my proudest moment in FM 14 was finding a young DM and converting him into probably the best RB in the world, not that it was too difficult, as they usually share some key attributes.

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Brilliant thread!

I've retrained a DM to a sweeper / libero in the past but never a left back to a striker!

I agree with one of the posts above that we can get too caught up in what the game decides the best position is rather than what our eyes tell us. I'm gutted I never thought of this myself - how many potentially great players have I missed out on?

Like you, I enjoy the training and development side of the game and was particularly inspired by one of SFraser's threads from an earlier version. I think it's still in one of the stickies so well worth reading for anyone who hasn't read it before.

I'm sure as a blade and no doubt being fond of my beloved Leeds United you'll remember that Howard wilkinson changed Gary Kelly from a striker to a right back. We also signed Carlton Palmer as a midfielder and transformed him into a centre back. Sadly he was equally bad there - as Ron Atkinson once said "he can trap a ball further than some people can kick it!"

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Bale is basically a sticker now anyway despite being an average at best left back, I wonder what he'd be like at left back now?:D

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Brilliant thread!

I've retrained a DM to a sweeper / libero in the past but never a left back to a striker!

I agree with one of the posts above that we can get too caught up in what the game decides the best position is rather than what our eyes tell us. I'm gutted I never thought of this myself - how many potentially great players have I missed out on?

Like you, I enjoy the training and development side of the game and was particularly inspired by one of SFraser's threads from an earlier version. I think it's still in one of the stickies so well worth reading for anyone who hasn't read it before.

I'm sure as a blade and no doubt being fond of my beloved Leeds United you'll remember that Howard wilkinson changed Gary Kelly from a striker to a right back. We also signed Carlton Palmer as a midfielder and transformed him into a centre back. Sadly he was equally bad there - as Ron Atkinson once said "he can trap a ball further than some people can kick it!"

I'd honestly forgot about Gary Kelly :D

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SI gave this a shout out on Facebook/Twitter yesterday, my blog went crazy :D

If I ever get the time I might write about the long term save I have where 7 of the first 11 all play in a lot different positions to what they started out as.

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I noted this thread with interest, as I agree in principle with the notion of a hybrid deep-lying forward with target-man atts. I had already used Giroud in this role almost throughout my opening season at Arsenal. He is an exact match for what I needed, with 15+ in all five of the key atts outlined by Cleon. Most managers seem to sell him on their Arsenal files, conversely he was the best player at the club for me; 22 goals, dominant aerially and with the right blend of physicality and vision to link the midfield and attack.

I am also a big fan of retraining young personnel, though suspect Cleon is far more involved in this respect. Fond memories of developing deadly poachers from former wannabe leftbacks!

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cleon, forgive my stupidity.

if im playing a DLF on support does it make sense to use and inside forward on attack? im considering using an IF on one side and RANDOMDAUGHTER on the other? would this make sense?

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cleon, forgive my stupidity.

if im playing a DLF on support does it make sense to use and inside forward on attack? im considering using an IF on one side and RANDOMDAUGHTER on the other? would this make sense?

Well that's very black and white. The question you should ask yourself is 'If I play like this then how can I fit this all into a system and get the players around them to make the most of it' rather than asking me if it makes sense or not.

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Shouldnt you look into becoming a real life coach Cleon?

Your passion for this an knowledge could be used in real life instead mate!

Take on coach license courses and start out as an assistant somewhere

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Shouldnt you look into becoming a real life coach Cleon?

Your passion for this an knowledge could be used in real life instead mate!

Take on coach license courses and start out as an assistant somewhere

I'm already a fully qualified coach, been taking my badges over the last few years :). I doubt I'll progress it any further though as football isn't my passion boxing is and I already do coaching/promotion side for that.

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So I try doing a search similar to yours Cleon and a few players pop up but none on a free and I can't afford any transfers at all. Then I untick my "Exclude Antwerp Players" and low and behold I am trialling a kid who I wanted to try out for the roaming playmaker role but he is actually perfect for the role described.

Another great thread.

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Cleon, when the player your are retrainig becomes accomplished in his new position. Do you then remove him from position training or leave him training the new position until he is natural.

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Cleon, when the player your are retrainig becomes accomplished in his new position. Do you then remove him from position training or leave him training the new position until he is natural.

Accomplished is enough for me.

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Nice thread and good explanations of they key attributes and why - It is so easy to either a) Get caught up in Finishing and Composure for any "striker" or b) get caught up in the games advised attributes (many of which are either very generic, or just impossible to reflect the needs of each system).

I was looking for a DLF myself as i read this, looking to put together a tactic in LLM using somewhat of a TM/DLF hybrid who brings others into play but is capable of a turn and run himself. Tricky to find in the Danish second division, but its all relative.

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Excellent thread that has given me a complete brainwave - I picked up a 20yr old Polish striker last year with 20 teamwork and workrate and respectable stats on dribbling, pace and stamina - I call him Kuyt Deluxe (partially because I can't pronounce his real name). However I already have a quality centre forward and only play one striker.

In the meantime I have been scrabbling around for a good defensive winger on the right to cover my marauding full back and at the moment am still playing a 37 year old James Milner - but of course! This is the role Kuyt Deluxe was born to play! How did this never occur to me before?

One question - if a player has no ability to play in a certain position is it pointless playing him there until he has built up a certain competence? Those stats posted above for Binnion-Williams - were they in his first season playing as a DLF or is that later in the game once he is more familiar with the position?

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Excellent thread that has given me a complete brainwave - I picked up a 20yr old Polish striker last year with 20 teamwork and workrate and respectable stats on dribbling, pace and stamina - I call him Kuyt Deluxe (partially because I can't pronounce his real name). However I already have a quality centre forward and only play one striker.

In the meantime I have been scrabbling around for a good defensive winger on the right to cover my marauding full back and at the moment am still playing a 37 year old James Milner - but of course! This is the role Kuyt Deluxe was born to play! How did this never occur to me before?

One question - if a player has no ability to play in a certain position is it pointless playing him there until he has built up a certain competence? Those stats posted above for Binnion-Williams - were they in his first season playing as a DLF or is that later in the game once he is more familiar with the position?

Dunno about Cleon, but I'd throw them in straight away, if they have the attributes they should preform anyway.

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Great cheers - 3 month injury to my centre forward means I've had to bung Kuyt Deluxe up front for now but will get him trained in the position and try it out when my striker is back

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Excellent thread that has given me a complete brainwave - I picked up a 20yr old Polish striker last year with 20 teamwork and workrate and respectable stats on dribbling, pace and stamina - I call him Kuyt Deluxe (partially because I can't pronounce his real name). However I already have a quality centre forward and only play one striker.

In the meantime I have been scrabbling around for a good defensive winger on the right to cover my marauding full back and at the moment am still playing a 37 year old James Milner - but of course! This is the role Kuyt Deluxe was born to play! How did this never occur to me before?

One question - if a player has no ability to play in a certain position is it pointless playing him there until he has built up a certain competence? Those stats posted above for Binnion-Williams - were they in his first season playing as a DLF or is that later in the game once he is more familiar with the position?

Those stats are from the first season. I play someone in the new position instantly, it helps them learn it faster.

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What ppm are good for a dlf would play one twos better? ( I have sturidge he has run more with ball) im thinking of teaching him play one twos or shoot with power will it work?

I got balotelli up front (we all know his long range kickppm) maybe I could use him as poacher or TMa im not really sure (will teaching him tries to break offside trap help this combo with sturidge).With low workrate and teamwork will learning the pm help the combo?

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So my DLF who had no ability at all as a striker has 1 goal and three assists in six games. You can see there is a cracking striker ready to burst out and when he is better trained at the position he will be excellent.

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Sorry to drag this up, I've only just noticed one of the details in the opening post - why are you only training this guy lightly and not heavily?

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So he doesn't have an heavy workload while retraining for a new position, it decreases the chance of training related injuries.

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Brilliant thread! I am kinda (having) to do something similar with Oxford City due to the lack of available players!! Seems to be working but i've not actually trained the players in the new positions so they are still unnatural...

Reminds me of Kyle Walker - was at Sheff Utd as a striker, and was about to be released until the coach at that time gave him a go at RB.

The rest, as they say, is history :)

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So he doesn't have an heavy workload while retraining for a new position, it decreases the chance of training related injuries.

Thanks. Much appreciated

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Just wanted to report back on my DLF. So I am Antwerp with no money and a paper thin squad. Used the filter as you described and the number 1 guy was a BWM who surprising was trialling with me, I signed him, retrained him and developed his attributes and during season one(When he was re-training to play as a DLF) he had 10 goals and 3 assists in 36 games although a few games he was having to play in his natural role.

Second season which I am into now he has 17 goals and 12 assists in 29 games. Top notch stuff again Cleon.

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hi Cleon!

really good thread , u're a absolutely fm master

one question:

what PPM are good for a DLF , like this player

thx!

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hi Cleon!

really good thread , u're a absolutely fm master

one question:

what PPM are good for a DLF , like this player

thx!

I'm Going to pre-empt cleon, (possibly incorrectly) and say that the DLF was the one he mentions in his other thread and which he includes the PPM's on post 16 of this thread:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/403153-Building-A-Tactic-From-The-Beginning-And-Maintaining-It-Long-Term

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