Football Manager 2014 - Update 14.2.2 - Feedback Thread

[balldoktor81]

I've been watching some full matches using the 3d view to experiment with tactics and I have a few observations.

Currently the match engine does not produce anything resembling actual football. Games don't flow properly.

There are far too many tackles and fouls and players don't seem to be able to produce anything if another player is within ten yards.

There are too many successful last ditch challenges in the box, too many blocks.

Players often just shoot directly at players who are right in front of them. First touch is terrible even for great players.

Dribbling is utterly ineffective. It very rarely results in a successful take-on even if the player has lightning pace and great dribbling, if they are anywhere near another player then they will lose the ball.

I often see tackling tennis where a player from one side will win the ball back and then immediately be tackled by a player from the other side who is then tackled himself by the same player. Or one player will tackle 2 or 3 players in succession after losing the ball after each successful tackle.

Attributes don't seem to have any influence on the chances to make a successful tackle. Strikers are often 100% successful with tackles despite a tackling attribute of 3 or 5.

It's very hard to tell a brilliant player from an average one by watching them during a game. There's very little skillful attacking play, dribbling or clever passing. Passing is particularly poor and there seems to be no real difference between my defender with a passing attribute of 9 and my playmaker with 17.

It's a mess and it's not acceptable for a game that isn't in beta. I'm not complaining about winning or losing or failing to score, this is about the kind of football I see when I watch a full match involving Premier League teams. It looks like the worst kind of amateur

football.

Exactly!!!

[Sussex Hammer]

Also just had my team playing in an away kit at home.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Teams occasionally wear their 2nd strip at home. The team I support IRL has worn our away kit in three home matches this season. It usually means there will be some sort of clash with both the away team's kits.

[SkinningForumVisitor]

Also just had my team playing in an away kit at home.

No problem...

[Chris21]

I'll tell you something I'm loving this version. I remember this time last year I was in here (well not here the FM2012 equivalent) like a lot of you moaning and complaining because I hated it so I know how frustrating it can be. But honestly this game and this version of the game is a million times better than last year. Remember how awful the ME was because it was the first time SI had tried the new ME? Shocking. This years is so much better and this current patch is fantastic, not perfect (it never will be) but very good.

Only issue I'm having is the defending corners bug that everyone is talking about which is annoying but by no means annoying enough to make the game unplayable. Compared to last year that's nothing. I'm just trying to find a way of combating it. Anyone found a way yet actually?

[jac4121993]

Despite following Cleon's descriptions to the letter, my tactical familiarity after pre season is barely even competent. I assume this is intentional. Of course, my team also, immediately as the season starts, become completely unable to defend corners so I might have to switch to defend set pieces on match prep.

Ah, and I honestly thought FM14 would improve on the FM13 shambles. How incredibly wrong I was.

[petergoddard]

Just re. your screenshot, I'm assuming you are Boavista?

You mentioned abandoning a possession-based style. A general thought, I wonder how many players have been trying to adopt a possession-based style and failing in the game? I have to confess at times I've been guilty of this myself. Perhaps Barcelona and Spain have so inspired us that we naturally try to imitate them on FM? Problem is that whether you're playing FM, or managing a football team IRL, there's another team that wants the ball, or is at least hell bent on stopping your team having it.

One thing I've learned relatively recently re. FM14 (not IRL I knew these things already) is to just focus on what my players can do, and what they can't do. Then, build my formation and my instructions around those things.

You assume right, fortunately for me

Yeah, I gave up for now and got tired of being annoyed with my self and since I'm managing another team that is also winning, I decided to give it a try with FC Porto. Much more happier now

Completly agree with your idea and I might add that contrary to what happened with teams playing against Barcelona that immediately would drop very deep, this is something that just doesn't happen in FM. Most teams might start very deep, but if they need to turn a result they will come over you. Considering this and some other details, it's impossible to imitate corretly.

Same here, there must some capacity of our own not to ask our players to do impossible things.

[jac4121993]

I should give up on trying to create a possession tactic. My players ignore my team instructions anyway and seem to prefer aimlessly smashing the ball out for a goal kick. I reported it a while ago, I doubt SI consider it a bug.

[petergoddard]

I've been watching some full matches using the 3d view to experiment with tactics and I have a few observations.

Currently the match engine does not produce anything resembling actual football. Games don't flow properly.

There are far too many tackles and fouls and players don't seem to be able to produce anything if another player is within ten yards.

There are too many successful last ditch challenges in the box, too many blocks.

Players often just shoot directly at players who are right in front of them. First touch is terrible even for great players.

Dribbling is utterly ineffective. It very rarely results in a successful take-on even if the player has lightning pace and great dribbling, if they are anywhere near another player then they will lose the ball.

I often see tackling tennis where a player from one side will win the ball back and then immediately be tackled by a player from the other side who is then tackled himself by the same player. Or one player will tackle 2 or 3 players in succession after losing the ball after each successful tackle.

Attributes don't seem to have any influence on the chances to make a successful tackle. Strikers are often 100% successful with tackles despite a tackling attribute of 3 or 5.

It's very hard to tell a brilliant player from an average one by watching them during a game. There's very little skillful attacking play, dribbling or clever passing. Passing is particularly poor and there seems to be no real difference between my defender with a passing attribute of 9 and my playmaker with 17.

It's a mess and it's not acceptable for a game that isn't in beta. I'm not complaining about winning or losing or failing to score, this is about the kind of football I see when I watch a full match involving Premier League teams. It looks like the worst kind of amateur football.

The bold part

Managing two different teams, whose players have very distinct attributes, it's frequent to see players who have the weakest attributes of my lower league team shooting a lot better than the other players of my top team with a lot better attributes. go figure this :confused:

[Blueflash]

Is this the worst corner ever?

[video=youtube;eYjaTB9t3lw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYjaTB9t3lw

Wow, that's one crappy corner. I mean, i've seen bad corners, but that one...

[Dagenham_Dave]

It looked ten times worse in 2D mode when I watched it live!

[Blueflash]

I've been watching some full matches using the 3d view to experiment with tactics and I have a few observations.

Currently the match engine does not produce anything resembling actual football. Games don't flow properly.

There are far too many tackles and fouls and players don't seem to be able to produce anything if another player is within ten yards.

There are too many successful last ditch challenges in the box, too many blocks.

Players often just shoot directly at players who are right in front of them. First touch is terrible even for great players.

Dribbling is utterly ineffective. It very rarely results in a successful take-on even if the player has lightning pace and great dribbling, if they are anywhere near another player then they will lose the ball.

I often see tackling tennis where a player from one side will win the ball back and then immediately be tackled by a player from the other side who is then tackled himself by the same player. Or one player will tackle 2 or 3 players in succession after losing the ball after each successful tackle.

Attributes don't seem to have any influence on the chances to make a successful tackle. Strikers are often 100% successful with tackles despite a tackling attribute of 3 or 5.

It's very hard to tell a brilliant player from an average one by watching them during a game. There's very little skillful attacking play, dribbling or clever passing. Passing is particularly poor and there seems to be no real difference between my defender with a passing attribute of 9 and my playmaker with 17.

It's a mess and it's not acceptable for a game that isn't in beta. I'm not complaining about winning or losing or failing to score, this is about the kind of football I see when I watch a full match involving Premier League teams. It looks like the worst kind of amateur football.

Got to say i agree wholeheartedly with this. I've tried, i have a decent amount of hours played, but no where near the near monopoly FM had on my free time in the past.

[zeeriboy]

Not constructive I realise, but I have to say lolz to the xenophobia accusations.

[griff24]

Dagenham_Dave...that corner is feccin hilarious. Think I'd cry if it happened, but hilarious to watch! haha

[edk77]

I've been watching some full matches using the 3d view to experiment with tactics and I have a few observations.

Currently the match engine does not produce anything resembling actual football. Games don't flow properly.

There are far too many tackles and fouls and players don't seem to be able to produce anything if another player is within ten yards.

There are too many successful last ditch challenges in the box, too many blocks.

Players often just shoot directly at players who are right in front of them. First touch is terrible even for great players.

Dribbling is utterly ineffective. It very rarely results in a successful take-on even if the player has lightning pace and great dribbling, if they are anywhere near another player then they will lose the ball.

I often see tackling tennis where a player from one side will win the ball back and then immediately be tackled by a player from the other side who is then tackled himself by the same player. Or one player will tackle 2 or 3 players in succession after losing the ball after each successful tackle.

Attributes don't seem to have any influence on the chances to make a successful tackle. Strikers are often 100% successful with tackles despite a tackling attribute of 3 or 5.

It's very hard to tell a brilliant player from an average one by watching them during a game. There's very little skillful attacking play, dribbling or clever passing. Passing is particularly poor and there seems to be no real difference between my defender with a passing attribute of 9 and my playmaker with 17.

It's a mess and it's not acceptable for a game that isn't in beta. I'm not complaining about winning or losing or failing to score, this is about the kind of football I see when I watch a full match involving Premier League teams. It looks like the worst kind of amateur football.

Agreed

Together with the amateur mistakes made by the goalkeeper and defenders happened so frequently made this the first FM patch i have stop playing completely.

[scott MUFC]

yup and these defensive and keeper mistakes are creeping into my preseason now, it would be great if this happened less frequently

2-2 draw with Houston... defenders didn't tackle. they score, and a shot through the keeper..

and i scored from one in a 4-0 win keeper walks his ball out of the area, gets tackled, cross and a goal.

these need sorting out, because it is impossible to assess players when the ME is making assessing players difficult

[daoan]

I've been watching some full matches using the 3d view to experiment with tactics and I have a few observations.

Currently the match engine does not produce anything resembling actual football. Games don't flow properly.

There are far too many tackles and fouls and players don't seem to be able to produce anything if another player is within ten yards.

There are too many successful last ditch challenges in the box, too many blocks.

Players often just shoot directly at players who are right in front of them. First touch is terrible even for great players.

Dribbling is utterly ineffective. It very rarely results in a successful take-on even if the player has lightning pace and great dribbling, if they are anywhere near another player then they will lose the ball.

I often see tackling tennis where a player from one side will win the ball back and then immediately be tackled by a player from the other side who is then tackled himself by the same player. Or one player will tackle 2 or 3 players in succession after losing the ball after each successful tackle.

Attributes don't seem to have any influence on the chances to make a successful tackle. Strikers are often 100% successful with tackles despite a tackling attribute of 3 or 5.

It's very hard to tell a brilliant player from an average one by watching them during a game. There's very little skillful attacking play, dribbling or clever passing. Passing is particularly poor and there seems to be no real difference between my defender with a passing attribute of 9 and my playmaker with 17.

It's a mess and it's not acceptable for a game that isn't in beta. I'm not complaining about winning or losing or failing to score, this is about the kind of football I see when I watch a full match involving Premier League teams. It looks like the worst kind of amateur football.

That. I wish we get more people who point these out and more Staff who take notes on that.

I love this game and really want it to step onto the next level (graphics wise & the whole managing experience).

[Preveza]

I've been watching some full matches using the 3d view to experiment with tactics and I have a few observations.

Currently the match engine does not produce anything resembling actual football. Games don't flow properly.

There are far too many tackles and fouls and players don't seem to be able to produce anything if another player is within ten yards.

There are too many successful last ditch challenges in the box, too many blocks.

Players often just shoot directly at players who are right in front of them. First touch is terrible even for great players.

Dribbling is utterly ineffective. It very rarely results in a successful take-on even if the player has lightning pace and great dribbling, if they are anywhere near another player then they will lose the ball.

I often see tackling tennis where a player from one side will win the ball back and then immediately be tackled by a player from the other side who is then tackled himself by the same player. Or one player will tackle 2 or 3 players in succession after losing the ball after each successful tackle.

Attributes don't seem to have any influence on the chances to make a successful tackle. Strikers are often 100% successful with tackles despite a tackling attribute of 3 or 5.

It's very hard to tell a brilliant player from an average one by watching them during a game. There's very little skillful attacking play, dribbling or clever passing. Passing is particularly poor and there seems to be no real difference between my defender with a passing attribute of 9 and my playmaker with 17.

It's a mess and it's not acceptable for a game that isn't in beta. I'm not complaining about winning or losing or failing to score, this is about the kind of football I see when I watch a full match involving Premier League teams. It looks like the worst kind of amateur football.

I dont agree. I believe you are just frustrated that you can't win . All jokes aside, I believe this patch to be one of the best thus far for a long time mate

I was very disappointed with the initial release, but I recently installed the game again, and 14.2.1 is very playable and actually very enjoyable for me mate. I rekon its your tactics no doubt. This patch is great. Well done SI

[SkinningForumVisitor]

Why news box tell what players I can loan from my feeder club?

Why does example Man utd want to know what players he can loan from example Dover?

[Tot]

Also just had my team playing in an away kit at home.

Yeah this happens every now and again, played in yellow a few times at the Emirates with Arsenal. In fact, in the season and a half i've been managing them i've actually had a couple of games where we played in our 3rd kit at home .

[Svenc]

You mentioned abandoning a possession-based style. A general thought, I wonder how many players have been trying to adopt a possession-based style and failing in the game?

From my experience going team instructions such as "retain possession" and "play short" are very "en vogue" and applied across all teams regardless of players. And then people complain about barely crafting out chances against opposition they should do such, as all it leads to is Kiki-kaka, that is lots of possession and barely a single pass penetrating the box, such as here:

Is it really a wonder that the AI with lesser time on the ball during the match manages to do so, given it isn't above average passing players for their level giving instructions to pass their way to high bliss heaven?

This match ended 1-1 on home soil against a team that should have been beaten. It naturally was made worse as the user didn't recognize what was happening, simply insisting that against inferior opposition this should have been a win by default. Such possession play works, has been working at least as far back as FM 2011/2012. I've had teams build around physical players and direct play with lots of crosses and long balls booted in the general direction of gigantic players as well as technical sides with possession based play. However, even a better Barcelona side would eventually adapt after suffering a surprise 2nd half equalizer by trying to more aggressively penetrate the box rather than stubbornly insist on playing ping pong in nowhere land until the whistle is blown and rage quit is due.

[samdiatmh]

From my experience going team instructions such as "retain possession" and "play short" are very "en vogue" and applied across all teams regardless of players. And then people complain about barely crafting out chances against opposition they should do such, as all it leads to is Kiki-kaka, that is lots of possession and barely a single pass penetrating the box, such as here:

[pictures of passing styles here]

This match ended 1-1 on home soil against a team that should have been beaten. It naturally was made worse as the user didn't recognize what was happening, simply insisting that against inferior opposition this should have been a win by default. Such possession play works, has been working at least as far back as FM 2011/2012. I've had teams build around physical players and direct play with lots of crosses and long balls booted in the general direction of gigantic players as well as technical sides with possession based play. However, even a better Barcelona side would eventually adapt after suffering a surprise 2nd half equalizer by trying to more aggressively penetrate the box rather than stubbornly insist on playing ping pong in nowhere land until the whistle is blown and rage quit is due.

how did that end 1-1? the 2nd team got robbed

I count 9-11 passes that were involved with the area in the first one (and even then, no where close to being remotely threatening)

and then the 2nd one gives lots of threatening deliveries, and heaps of chances for the team

interesting that you point it out though, I've never really paid much attention to tactics (since I developed a pretty good one in FM10 and kept it)

but if i'm having no threat when playing with "work ball into box", "pass shorter" and "retain possession" then maybe it needs a few tweaks

but i think that's a problem with the engine though, I want a slow build up, but then becoming more direct when an opening is spotted (kind of like how Barcelona do it IRL - a slow passing build up, a flagging defender and BAM! aggressive run, ball given in, goal)

I also find that teams aren't as easy to wear out with that philosophy now, they're a lot more compact and fitness-preserving (always used to get a lot of late goals with this, but not really finding that on FM14)

[BiggusD]

From my experience going team instructions such as "retain possession" and "play short" are very "en vogue" and applied across all teams regardless of players. And then people complain about barely crafting out chances against opposition they should do such, as all it leads to is Kiki-kaka, that is lots of possession and barely a single pass penetrating the box, such as here:

Is it really a wonder that the AI with lesser time on the ball during the match manages to do so, given it isn't above average passing players for their level giving instructions to pass their way to high bliss heaven?

This match ended 1-1 on home soil against a team that should have been beaten. It naturally was made worse as the user didn't recognize what was happening, simply insisting that against inferior opposition this should have been a win by default. Such possession play works, has been working at least as far back as FM 2011/2012. I've had teams build around physical players and direct play with lots of crosses and long balls booted in the general direction of gigantic players as well as technical sides with possession based play. However, even a better Barcelona side would eventually adapt after suffering a surprise 2nd half equalizer by trying to more aggressively penetrate the box rather than stubbornly insist on playing ping pong in nowhere land until the whistle is blown and rage quit is due.

Well, what is worse, then - having pointless passing like that, or panicked attacking which ends in rushed shots as soon as there is a millionth of a chance of the ball going into the net. The reason I apply all those possession-granting instructions is not to play Tiki-Taka football but to avoid aimless shooting and ridiculously selfish decision-making, as well as to avoid wild clearances under no pressure and my players wearing blinders. My interpretation of Attack as a strategy is not route-one punting and wingers crossing into the box asap, and SI's wasn't either, in FM13 and earlier. Apparently, I am not the only one thinking Attack should generate attacking football either - the AI is also surprisingly easy to overcome when they are the favourites and do not have vastly superior players. They are for me and they are for other AI teams going for the counter against me, and they are in AI vs AI matches too; and all this generates weird tables full of draws and surprise losses in the top half.

If I want the kind of urgency you get with an Attack strategy with no other instructions, I should have to go Overload+.

Yep as you can see I am arguing for a toning down of the effects of Mentality as well as a large bump in Composure across the board. More specifically, on Fluid/Very Fluid and Attack, the creative freedom should lead to a decision-making to keep possession and try again rather than to shoot or cross just for the sake of it. Unless you use tools to increase urgency, of course.

[OPAgusta]

This match ended 1-1 on home soil against a team that should have been beaten. It naturally was made worse as the user didn't recognize what was happening, simply insisting that against inferior opposition this should have been a win by default. Such possession play works, has been working at least as far back as FM 2011/2012. I've had teams build around physical players and direct play with lots of crosses and long balls booted in the general direction of gigantic players as well as technical sides with possession based play. However, even a better Barcelona side would eventually adapt after suffering a surprise 2nd half equalizer by trying to more aggressively penetrate the box rather than stubbornly insist on playing ping pong in nowhere land until the whistle is blown and rage quit is due.

You have your point, but in this game if you do not use 'retain possession' and 'work into box' shouts then your players are going to keep on shooting the ball which makes me wanna pull my hair, even with 'shoot less' instruction used especially when you use big team (I use Barcelona). So, some people say that maybe I should not use too attacking a mentality so I switched my mentality from Control to Counter, drop deeper, stand off opponents as my starting tactic. Basically I want to give up some percentage of possession with hope that opponents will open up and attack me and I can launch counter attack. Guess what? same thing happens, I end up with 60+ percent possession and lot of shots. So it is still the same inefficiency. I guess that no matter what your mentality if your players' individual quality is more superior than your opponent then you are going to end up with more possession and more shots. Yes I do not have problem winning but I have problem with efficiency. The more inefficient you play in a match (more shots no end product) the more difficult it will be for me to score as players' composure seems to take a dip which lead to even more shots and chances being wasted.

Look at how Barcelona played under Guardiola, if the players could not find opening they will keep their patience and not force 20+ shots in a game.

[Ackter]

Scott - please, have you reported any​ of the things you keep raising in the bugs forum?

[Svenc]

Look at how Barcelona played under Guardiola, if the players could not find opening they will keep their patience and not force 20+ shots in a game.

This can be also influenced by tactics, obviously. If there are no options a player is more prone to shoot (arguably players in FM too prone to do such in general). The number of overall shots can be fairly high (in the patch prior it could borderline on the outright absurd). However, if you take a look at FM 2014's Barcelona, even that managed by the AI and their 20+ shot games, such as this one, you'll then often notice that 1) but a fraction are actually from outside the box.

And 2) A good number of those can come from free kicks after the players were fouled just outside the box (in this case at least 3). That is, if you look beyond the numbers and check what these shots are actually like that then get accumulated in the statistics. I don't see those numbers alone as hugely unrealistic, it could be compared to the late CL stages in the 2012 season against Chelski, for instance. It's not as if there hadn't been any attempts and a team would just pass the ball around endlessly, even Barca, in particular not against a team sitting this deep: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/17817584 Or the CL matches against Celtic, in which they had around 25 shots each also. To keep the shot count super low and only have attempts when you think it to be a 90% chance on target is just not football reality. In particular coupled with "shoots from distance" PPMs, this can be infuriating, and sometimes look bad, but still. That these matches happen so often in FM is likely as related to the occasional bad decision as it is to AI dropping super deep against superior teams by default. Against teams of calibre, this is different. That said, FM has been prone to creating situations in which bad shooting decisions are taken in general, but in my opinion such sometimes is also a little exaggerated. This is an attempt to recreate a football match genuine on your computer, that is the entire 90 minutes of it as opposed to FIFA. Watching two AI teams in FIFA already has a few howlers in two by six minutes of play, even if it all remains end to end stuff by very definition.

If the play is too urgent or not is up for debate, and everyone will have a different opinion and outlook on that which has got to be respected. As the game is being developed in GB, play is obviously influenced by the football being played there. However far less than was the case in earlier iterations, imho. Go back and download a demo of earlier iteratioins, the difference is huge. I'd argue it is possible to play a patient game (and vice versa), however, it remains unclear as to whether the AI is sophisticated enough to utilize the tactical tools given to its to full effect (or the traits and style preferences given each AI manager in the databse). Each of the mentalities can be tweaked into different directions, as the styles of play aren't fixed to any mentality. Yet for possession based play and keeping the ball deeper, it doesn't make much sense in going with the most aggressive mentalities such as attack, for instance (or not actually having the players that stay deep). Too many balls foward, and players pushing up early. My other argument was about players not adopting and not recognizing when their passing around proves problematic or their squads aren't suited fully, and rather going with instructions just because they think it sounds fancy (or put too mush value on a few statistics in isolation, which mean little without context -- but then FM has an entire culture of players who put their sole focus on dominating isolated numbers, such as possession statistics and shot counts).

Out of that focus the many claims of cheating AI and super keepers are born. If you build a tactics that dominates play and encourages going forward, you'll never see it happening that you're being outplayed "statistically" but still come out with a win after getting battered the entire game but hitting onto something on a successful break. The AI is always going to have a better shot conversion rate by default. Luckily there are many ways to winning a match, and FM would be a poor sim if all you had to every game was keeping the ball and getting shots going.

[jac4121993]

Does anyone know why my striker keeps coming short for throws in when he's not set to do so? Is it because he's set as a DLF? Or is it a bug I should be reporting?

Edit: Just scored a goal that I don't think should be happening. Opposition kick the ball out because of an injury. We throw the ball back but one of their defenders just heads it straight to one of my wingers 10 yards away who crosses to my other winger who scores. I think I'll be reporting that in a bit too.

[forameuss]

Does anyone know why my striker keeps coming short for throws in when he's not set to do so? Is it because he's set as a DLF? Or is it a bug I should be reporting?

Edit: Just scored a goal that I don't think should be happening. Opposition kick the ball out because of an injury. We throw the ball back but one of their defenders just heads it straight to one of my wingers 10 yards away who crosses to my other winger who scores. I think I'll be reporting that in a bit too.

I'd always report these things, even if they seem frivolous. You might get a dev saying "not an issue", so great, but you might have stumbled across something that hasn't been seen yet. Always worth a try.

[themadsheep2001]

Just deleted 57 posts. For those of you who just spent the last 2-3 hours being hopelessly off topic and derailing the thread, you've wasted just your time.

[Beestonite]

It isn't intended as 'derailment'. Just a bit of passion on both sides of the argument.

[themadsheep2001]

It isn't intended as 'derailment'. Just a bit of passion on both sides of the argument.

Maybe not, but that is exactly what it achieved. I also have to say passion doesn't excuse some of the comments flying from both sides. Everyone needs to be a lot more civil. I'd really rather not hand out infractions and such, so everyone please consider the house rules.

[Beestonite]

Maybe not, but that is exactly what it achieved. I also have to say passion doesn't excuse some of the comments flying from both sides. Everyone needs to be a lot more civil. I'd really rather not hand out infractions and such, so everyone please consider the house rules.

No problemo.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I wish I had a picture of Novak Djokovic doing a 'facepalm', it would be strangely appropriate here.

As for feedback to keep it on topic, as much as I'm loving the game overall, I'm a bit dismayed with something I tried last night.

For ages, I've been trying to construct a decent tactic for my teams. I have followed the advice from wwwfan's 12-step guide, and extensively read the 'pairs and combinations' guide in that section too, but despite this, I'm still struggling with it.

I was recently sacked as Hibs boss, but I had saved it just before, so last night I loaded the game from that point, and done a wee test. Having fiddled for forever to try and get a tactic to work based on the revision above, I decided to try this...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/381334-Finding-Diablo-Tactic

I almost never use downloaded tactics or copy other peoples, but I looked at the basic shape of that guy's tactic and immediately thought, 'that could never work'. Using the sensible logic explained in the rest of the tactics forum, that tactic looks disastrous. But on implementing it to my Hibs team (on FM Classic so no worries about familiarity), I won five games on the bounce with it, with my top scorer in that period being my wing-back Alan Hutton.

And there lies my disappointment. Why should a sensible, well thought out tactic perform so badly, yet one that's essentially a mess and would never in a million years work in real life be so successful? I won't be using that tactic again, as it feels too much like cheating, and I've half a mind to raise it in the bugs forum, but I guess that would further enhance my reputation as public enemy number 1 around here

Seriously though, I find this a much bigger issue that any moaning about corners and own goals. Others won't see it that way as it'll get their team winning, which often blinds people of the real problems in the game.

And yes, sort it out SI !

[Qwqwqw]

I wish I had a picture of Novak Djokovic doing a 'facepalm', it would be strangely appropriate here.

As for feedback to keep it on topic, as much as I'm loving the game overall, I'm a bit dismayed with something I tried last night.

For ages, I've been trying to construct a decent tactic for my teams. I have followed the advice from wwwfan's 12-step guide, and extensively read the 'pairs and combinations' guide in that section too, but despite this, I'm still struggling with it.

I was recently sacked as Hibs boss, but I had saved it just before, so last night I loaded the game from that point, and done a wee test. Having fiddled for forever to try and get a tactic to work based on the revision above, I decided to try this...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/381334-Finding-Diablo-Tactic

I almost never use downloaded tactics or copy other peoples, but I looked at the basic shape of that guy's tactic and immediately thought, 'that could never work'. Using the sensible logic explained in the rest of the tactics forum, that tactic looks disastrous. But on implementing it to my Hibs team (on FM Classic so no worries about familiarity), I won five games on the bounce with it, with my top scorer in that period being my wing-back Alan Hutton.

And there lies my disappointment. Why should a sensible, well thought out tactic perform so badly, yet one that's essentially a mess and would never in a million years work in real life be so successful? I won't be using that tactic again, as it feels too much like cheating, and I've half a mind to raise it in the bugs forum, but I guess that would further enhance my reputation as public enemy number 1 around here

Seriously though, I find this a much bigger issue that any moaning about corners and own goals. Others won't see it that way as it'll get their team winning, which often blinds people of the real problems in the game.

And yes, sort it out SI !

The tactic is probably using an exploit. You can either win by looking for exploits (and I'm guessing that there will always be exploits), or by trying to play 'real' football, though, in that case, you are actually playing against whoever designed the game and his/hers idea of 'real football'.

[Beestonite]

I wish I had a picture of Novak Djokovic doing a 'facepalm', it would be strangely appropriate here.

As for feedback to keep it on topic, as much as I'm loving the game overall, I'm a bit dismayed with something I tried last night.

For ages, I've been trying to construct a decent tactic for my teams. I have followed the advice from wwwfan's 12-step guide, and extensively read the 'pairs and combinations' guide in that section too, but despite this, I'm still struggling with it.

I was recently sacked as Hibs boss, but I had saved it just before, so last night I loaded the game from that point, and done a wee test. Having fiddled for forever to try and get a tactic to work based on the revision above, I decided to try this...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/381334-Finding-Diablo-Tactic

I almost never use downloaded tactics or copy other peoples, but I looked at the basic shape of that guy's tactic and immediately thought, 'that could never work'. Using the sensible logic explained in the rest of the tactics forum, that tactic looks disastrous. But on implementing it to my Hibs team (on FM Classic so no worries about familiarity), I won five games on the bounce with it, with my top scorer in that period being my wing-back Alan Hutton.

And there lies my disappointment. Why should a sensible, well thought out tactic perform so badly, yet one that's essentially a mess and would never in a million years work in real life be so successful? I won't be using that tactic again, as it feels too much like cheating, and I've half a mind to raise it in the bugs forum, but I guess that would further enhance my reputation as public enemy number 1 around here

Seriously though, I find this a much bigger issue that any moaning about corners and own goals. Others won't see it that way as it'll get their team winning, which often blinds people of the real problems in the game.

And yes, sort it out SI !

I can relate to the point you make about tactics which appear to look ridiculous yet work. I struggled with Fm12 and downloaded a tactic for a few games. I had the same results as you, yet strangely like you, I felt like it was cheating so stopped using it.

FM14 is a similar experience for me, yet after reading the post by cleon, I found it really helped. Not the pairs one, the one after where he shows replaying the game and pausing it to see where his players are in the pitch. That really helped me. Have you tried doing this?

[forameuss]

I wish I had a picture of Novak Djokovic doing a 'facepalm', it would be strangely appropriate here.

As for feedback to keep it on topic, as much as I'm loving the game overall, I'm a bit dismayed with something I tried last night.

For ages, I've been trying to construct a decent tactic for my teams. I have followed the advice from wwwfan's 12-step guide, and extensively read the 'pairs and combinations' guide in that section too, but despite this, I'm still struggling with it.

I was recently sacked as Hibs boss, but I had saved it just before, so last night I loaded the game from that point, and done a wee test. Having fiddled for forever to try and get a tactic to work based on the revision above, I decided to try this...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/381334-Finding-Diablo-Tactic

I almost never use downloaded tactics or copy other peoples, but I looked at the basic shape of that guy's tactic and immediately thought, 'that could never work'. Using the sensible logic explained in the rest of the tactics forum, that tactic looks disastrous. But on implementing it to my Hibs team (on FM Classic so no worries about familiarity), I won five games on the bounce with it, with my top scorer in that period being my wing-back Alan Hutton.

And there lies my disappointment. Why should a sensible, well thought out tactic perform so badly, yet one that's essentially a mess and would never in a million years work in real life be so successful? I won't be using that tactic again, as it feels too much like cheating, and I've half a mind to raise it in the bugs forum, but I guess that would further enhance my reputation as public enemy number 1 around here

Seriously though, I find this a much bigger issue that any moaning about corners and own goals. Others won't see it that way as it'll get their team winning, which often blinds people of the real problems in the game.

And yes, sort it out SI !

I think this is an issue, but it's something that will probably affect every ME there ever has been in different ways, and becomes pretty difficult to fix. It's the age old "put rubbish in get rubbish out" method. The ME is written from the perspective of trying to mirror real football as closely as possible. As such, there is a weakness there for things that are way off the reservation. I'm sure some things are covered, but, looking at that tactic in particular, this is not something standard being thrown at the ME. There's probably several situations where that tactic confuses the opposition so much that it becomes successful.

I remember in CM01/02 (I think), the original Diablo was prevalent. You set your center mid to charge forward to your front-line, and the opposition defence just couldn't do a thing. In FML it was the 4-1-2-3, so much so that there were guides written on how to counter it, and when you did...God what a feeling.

Every ME update is probably going to expose one of these things - the good thing is that being a single player game, if you stop yourself using these kinds of tactics, then the AI certainly won't. If this was FML...that would be a nightmare.

[jac4121993]

@Dagenham, I'd have to agree with your post, that formation looks disastrous and incredibly unbalanced. Perhaps some sort of exploitation of match engine flaws?

Edit: I've reported that giving the ball back to the opposition after an injury stoppage issue to the bug forum. If anyone spots something similar in matches please post it on that thread!

[Fluisterwoud]

Is it just me, or are the 'instant results' usually biased towards your opponent. I like to hit the 'instant' button when playing friendlies, secondary cups or that few last games at the end of a season when nothing is to be won or lost anymore. But I rarely win those games. Being Wycombe Wanderers, 2nd in the league after 31 games, playing Eastleigh, rock bottom with only 4 wins: 5-1 defeat. I reloaded the game 9 times, I lost 6, drew 2 and won 2. After that, I managed that game myself, did not chance anything during the match and won 5 out of 5: 0-3, 1-3, 1-4, 0-3, 1-3.

So, is the 'Instant result' actually a punishment for laziness?

[themadsheep2001]

I can relate to the point you make about tactics which appear to look ridiculous yet work. I struggled with Fm12 and downloaded a tactic for a few games. I had the same results as you, yet strangely like you, I felt like it was cheating so stopped using it.

FM14 is a similar experience for me, yet after reading the post by cleon, I found it really helped. Not the pairs one, the one after where he shows replaying the game and pausing it to see where his players are in the pitch. That really helped me. Have you tried doing this?

I think one of the weaker points of FM is actually something that I have barely seen raised in and amongst all the corner stuff: Analysis and explanation of concepts. What I would love to see when you created a tactic, is the attacking phase of your formation.

For example, when I create my 4-4-2, the roles and philosophy I use means the attacking shape is actually 2-1-4-3. So I can work out straight away where my likely attacking passing options and moves are, AND also see where I am weak should it break down ( in this case, quick long balls into the channels).

[Dagenham_Dave]

@Dagenham, I'd have to agree with your post, that formation looks disastrous and incredibly unbalanced. Perhaps some sort of exploitation of match engine flaws?

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. I'm not having a go at the chap who constructed it or anything, I'm more disappointed this still exists as the game seemed to be tightening up in regards to those type of tactics sneaking in. I guess there'll always be ways and means though. It's just frustrating that I spent so much time reading about how to construct a 'proper' tactic and am still struggling with it, and then this pops up. It's almost like trying to smash a wall with a sledgehammer to no avail, then someone comes along and knocks the whole thing down with a feather.

Bad analogy aside, that's how I feel.

[Svenc]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/381334-Finding-Diablo-Tactic

I almost never use downloaded tactics or copy other peoples, but I looked at the basic shape of that guy's tactic and immediately thought, 'that could never work'. Using the sensible logic explained in the rest of the tactics forum, that tactic looks disastrous. But on implementing it to my Hibs team (on FM Classic so no worries about familiarity), I won five games on the bounce with it, with my top scorer in that period being my wing-back Alan Hutton.

I've recently seen a similar one going places. The entire key to these kind of tactics is a purely numbers game. It's no magics. Simply lots of roles/duties with players rushing into the opponent's area from deep as quickly as possible. The AI doesn't recognize it as such and as such it can be fairly effective.

This one looks more effective than the one I have seen as there is a back three and an anchor man, meaning that whilst everyone is pushing up like headless chickens, four always staying behind guarantees some stability at the inevitable break. The tactics I saw had two CBs and and anchor man staying behind. It also didn't work very well unless you had the players, apparently.

Coincidentally or no, AI breaking tactics (if this is one) seem to be always of this kind. It's all about having man advantage somewhere sometime the AI doesn't cope with and adapt (anybody remembers the Farrows of old or the 2011/2012 tactics that just kept 6, 7 men back without the AI adapting whilst funneling TBs to a lone forward). In an online save that'd look a tad different, I reckon.

[HUNT3R]

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. I'm not having a go at the chap who constructed it or anything, I'm more disappointed this still exists as the game seemed to be tightening up in regards to those type of tactics sneaking in. I guess there'll always be ways and means though. It's just frustrating that I spent so much time reading about how to construct a 'proper' tactic and am still struggling with it, and then this pops up. It's almost like trying to smash a wall with a sledgehammer to no avail, then someone comes along and knocks the whole thing down with a feather.

Bad analogy aside, that's how I feel.

The testing team should actually test these types of tactics to see why they're successful. It must be exploiting something.

[Beestonite]

I think one of teh weaker points of FM is actually something that I have barely seen raised in and amongst all the corner stuff: Analysis and explanation of concepts. What I would love to see when you created a tactic, is the attacking phase of your formation.

For example, when I create my 4-4-2, the roles and philosophy I use means the attacking shape is actually 2-1-4-3. So I can work out straight away where my likely attacking passing options and moves are, AND also see where I am weak should it break down ( in this case, quick long balls into the channels).

I think what you're saying relates heavily to what I read in an interview in the first edition of the magazine Cleon (again) writes. He interviewed a real life coach, who gave his view on how FM is compared to real life.

He basically said that the tactical side of the game doesn't have enough depth. Apparently, in real life there are four (if I remember correctly) phases of play.

Your problem will be solved if these are all implemented into FM. Basically the game shouldn't be as simple as attacking and defensive instructions. There is far more to a game of football than just that, such as how your team reacts in the situation you give.

Without it I feel users will always 'struggle' to control every aspect within the FM world.

Back to my original point, I found it amazing just how much I noticed the difference in simply changing an instruction from support to attack. The players general position would be changed quite significantly, giving the desired effect. Without pausing, I doubt I'd have noticed either the need, or the change.

[HUNT3R]

I think one of the weaker points of FM is actually something that I have barely seen raised in and amongst all the corner stuff: Analysis and explanation of concepts. What I would love to see when you created a tactic, is the attacking phase of your formation.

For example, when I create my 4-4-2, the roles and philosophy I use means the attacking shape is actually 2-1-4-3. So I can work out straight away where my likely attacking passing options and moves are, AND also see where I am weak should it break down ( in this case, quick long balls into the channels).

I did mention it somewhere (probably an earlier feedback thread), but I would like this too. Your tactic will be played out (see it as the team practicing maybe?) by giving the ball randomly to a defender and from there your team attacks. There should be dummies or fake defenders (defenders that hassle but don't tackle) so that it would at least reflect how your tactic might play out in a game.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I think it'd be good if the AI could, in time, learn the tactic you're playing, and counter it, depending on the skills and attributes of the AI manager/coaching staff at various teams. The human player can get a team report and study an opposition formation, and use that to decide how best to approach games, but according to the devs/mods on here, the AI never learns your tactic, they merely change how they approach playing you based on your reputation.

That way, even the most exploitative tactics could be countered by an AI team whose staff have some tactical savvy. That would put more onus on the user to concentrate what's happening in game, rather that just press continue for the win. I daresay that wouldn't be particularly popular, however...

[HUNT3R]

I think what you're saying relates heavily to what I read in an interview in the first edition of the magazine Cleon (again) writes. He interviewed a real life coach, who gave his view on how FM is compared to real life.

He basically said that the tactical side of the game doesn't have enough depth. Apparently, in real life there are four (if I remember correctly) phases of play.

Your problem will be solved if these are all implemented into FM. Basically the game shouldn't be as simple as attacking and defensive instructions. There is far more to a game of football than just that, such as how your team reacts in the situation you give.

Without it I feel users will always 'struggle' to control every aspect within the FM world.

Back to my original point, I found it amazing just how much I noticed the difference in simply changing an instruction from support to attack. The players general position would be changed quite significantly, giving the desired effect. Without pausing, I doubt I'd have noticed either the need, or the change.

While I agree with what you're saying and would love to see the four phases in FM, I don't think it should be added. Based on this version's feedback threads (I haven't even looked in the tactics forum) there are a lot of users struggling. Maybe even more than previous years. Complicating things further by adding another two phases, might lose these people completely.

Not to mention the added difficulty for SI of balancing the ME with 4 input screens.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I did mention it somewhere (probably an earlier feedback thread), but I would like this too. Your tactic will be played out (see it as the team practicing maybe?) by giving the ball randomly to a defender and from there your team attacks. There should be dummies or fake defenders (defenders that hassle but don't tackle) so that it would at least reflect how your tactic might play out in a game.

Yeah, it would really take the game to the next level if training could be done interactively on a training pitch through the week, where you could properly test out formations and see for yourself the positioning of your players in phases of attacking/defending, rather than try to work it out when you're in the middle of a must-win game!

[YKW]

Yeah I've made needlessly long posts about something like that being needed.

[milnerpoint]

The testing team should actually test these types of tactics to see why they're successful. It must be exploiting something.

How do you test this kinda thing tho? And should they spend time testing the ME against unrealistic inputs? Lets be fair, these kinda tactics are not created to play good football, or to get a striker scoring, they are built purely for one thing, exploiting the ME to win. Which is up to the person using it, if all they care about is winning, then fine let them use tactics like this. I personally think SI should spend very little time looking at tactics like this, and concentrate on making sure when logical situations are put into the ME, that logical things come back out.

[Qwqwqw]

The return of with/without ball positions on the pitch would be awesome, too