*Official* FM 13 Update 13.2.3 - Match Engine v1339 Constructive Discussion & Feedback

[Shakes]

Nothing on whether or not teams in South America can register for the Copa Sudamericana? Kind of a key feature to playing those leagues.

That isn't a match engine issue, you're in the wrong thread.

[CityAndColour]

Only one strange thing happens on my game a lot... Goal kicks. When a goal kick is kicked long 50% of the time a striker or midfielder brings it down unchallenged. I have tried to stop this a few ways (tight marking, adding a 'stopper' CB, playing with an anchorman but it happens a lot. In a real game from a goal kick, I think 99% of goal kicks long result in headers.

I had this problem on previous patches too. Can't work out how to make my centre-half follow the striker up the pitch, which results in long goal kicks being taken down by the striker on his chest, while the defender stands off.

[luka_zg]

Injuries are a massive problem. every game I have to make at least one sub due to injury. I'm sorry but that is just not right. Also, anybody managed to get their wingers to actually do what wingers usually do, hug the touchline and cross the ball?? They always cut inside to have a inasanely stupid attempt on goal which ends up like 20 yards off target or ends up being blocked by defenders.

"Scored a total fluke" is also a problem, happens much to often.

And Mario Gotze for me went from the team's superstar on 13.2.2 to an average squad player on 13.3.

[nonleague]

Injuries are a massive problem. every game I have to make at least one sub due to injury. I'm sorry but that is just not right. Also, anybody managed to get their wingers to actually do what wingers usually do, hug the touchline and cross the ball?? They always cut inside to have a inasanely stupid attempt on goal which ends up like 20 yards off target or ends up being blocked by defenders.

I'm also experiencing high numbers of injuries whether it be in the match or training. My training is set to average, rest both before and after a match and I am playing non-aggressive tactics.

This winger problem that you've mentioned I am also experiencing and it's so frustrating. Currently my player whether it be he plays in ML as Wa or as AML as a winger or inside forward will always dribble inside and shot almost always hitting the corner flag. For what it's worth, he does not have 'Cuts Inside' as a ppm.

[stevemc]

I've noticed strikers getting alot of pointless bookings, for unsporting behaviour, which to me looks like diving?

[OldSwanner]

FM is totally accurate for last nights Bernabeu, but perhaps not for tonight's Zenit pitch. Maybe too many pitchs are in too good condition.

I disagree .. a perfect condition pitch is crafted to have enough height on the grass to hold the ball up when it bounces. in FM it's as if every pitch is a block of baked hard mud, where the ball rolls without impedance. On such a pitch, good players would impart backspin on long passes to make the ball hold up, but this doesn't appear to be modelled in FM.

Accurate ball physics should be the foundation of the ME, and IMO, as long as they are flawed the game cannot achieve what we'd like it to.

[taytopcuoglu]

It's not normal so many injuries. I hope ıt'll be fixed in next update

[Herbert Fandel]

pitcure

It's not normal so many injuries. I hope ıt'll be fixed in next update

If your picture is your evidence, then you are 100% wrong, there is no other way to put it.

http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/epl_injury_table.php

[Emmeth]

I disagree .. a perfect condition pitch is crafted to have enough height on the grass to hold the ball up when it bounces. in FM it's as if every pitch is a block of baked hard mud, where the ball rolls without impedance. On such a pitch, good players would impart backspin on long passes to make the ball hold up, but this doesn't appear to be modelled in FM.

Accurate ball physics should be the foundation of the ME, and IMO, as long as they are flawed the game cannot achieve what we'd like it to.

I still have to try the latest patch but I remember that f.i. when the pitch was snowy the ball didn't care about the snow on its rebounding physics. It is not a big issue but it would be cool if the ball rebounded depending on rain and/or snow conditions in a different way compared to hard dry or soft grass standard conditions.

[Kriss]

It's not normal so many injuries. I hope ıt'll be fixed in next update

Errrm, hate to point this out but this is the current real world Physioroom list http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/epl_injury_table.php it was worse in May too.

Bugger Herbie got up early

[Emmeth]

Errrm, hate to point this out but this is the current real world Physioroom list http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/epl_injury_table.php it was worse in May too.

Bugger Herbie got up early

If FM injuries are equal or close to the real ones ratio, well, FM is perfect on that.

[Herbert Fandel]

Agreed, from what I can see they're mostly tweak jobs rather than wholesale changes so hopefully can be ironed out relatively easily.

I actually disagree. There has been a lot of talk about how this new ME is totally different to FM12, and lots of people trotting out cliches about how we are beginning to see its true potential (I may have even said it myself months ago) but I now disagree completely.

I like the FM13 ME, and I find it more enjoyable than ever before, but I think the recent update has shown the limits of it more than ever.

I don't know enough about how it works to suggest improvements, but the biggest things that reduce the realism for me are the way it works. The way it seems to be pre-decided who will get the ball as it bobbles down the pitch closer to other players, the way that if the ME has calculated a player won't tackle the ball-carrier in that highlight he just walks alongside him encouragingly, and so on.

For me the FM13 ME is the best so far, but given how much better than FM12 it is following the re-write, and how visible the limits are, personally I would be in favour of another complete re-write to address those limits (obviously not knowing how much work that would take) rather than just continuing to fine-tune the very limited ME.

Of course, given the amount of abuse SI took off of certain people this year, and the amount of other more reasoned criticism they took of other more sensible people too, I don't think there is any chance of another major re-write in the immediate future. FM15 maybe?

[themadsheep2001]

I actually disagree. There has been a lot of talk about how this new ME is totally different to FM12, and lots of people trotting out cliches about how we are beginning to see its true potential (I may have even said it myself months ago) but I now disagree completely.

I like the FM13 ME, and I find it more enjoyable than ever before, but I think the recent update has shown the limits of it more than ever.

I don't know enough about how it works to suggest improvements, but the biggest things that reduce the realism for me are the way it works. The way it seems to be pre-decided who will get the ball as it bobbles down the pitch closer to other players, the way that if the ME has calculated a player won't tackle the ball-carrier in that highlight he just walks alongside him encouragingly, and so on.

For me the FM13 ME is the best so far, but given how much better than FM12 it is following the re-write, and how visible the limits are, personally I would be in favour of another complete re-write to address those limits (obviously not knowing how much work that would take) rather than just continuing to fine-tune the very limited ME.

Of course, given the amount of abuse SI took off of certain people this year, and the amount of other more reasoned criticism they took of other more sensible people too, I don't think there is any chance of another major re-write in the immediate future. FM15 maybe?

Why on earth would they do another re-write? And what makes you so sure that it needs one?

[Herbert Fandel]

Why on earth would they do another re-write? And what makes you so sure that it needs one?

Nothing makes me sure, as I don't know how it works, so I'm only guessing.

I just guess that, now that most of the silly flaws are gone, the problems that really stand out for me are ones that, in my limited knowledge, wouldn't appear to be fixable with fine-tuning or dialling up or down. Examples would be the way that the ME seems to always know who the ball belongs to in advance (I guess related to the fact it is always showing highlights of what is already calculated), meaning that the ball can go down the pitch within a metre of a number of opposition players who just watch it go by to its intended recipient. Other thinks like I described above.

I wouldn't imagine the ME calculations are wrong, but the biggest flaws for me now are the way these are represented. This kind of things is for me the biggest thing that stops it looking like football.

[BiggusD]

Why on earth would they do another re-write? And what makes you so sure that it needs one?

That's an easy answer: the FM ME is not a mechanism that runs an open-ended, free-flowing simulation of 25 individual participants reacting and proacting to whatever happens on the pitch. Everything is scripted. The football being played is an illusion.

You see, when a winger runs down the flank past a full-back who fails a tackle and crosses to a striker who loses his marker and heads the ball in behind the keeper, that is not what you saw. What you actually saw was a goal that was scored that necessitated the keeper to not save, the central defender to not mark properly, the cross to not be imprecise and the full-back's tackle to be missed. That is one event with a calculated end result, not several incidents leading up to a goal. The fact that it looks like the latter is a matter of video editing skills.

This is all fine, since the evidence shows it is the best that can be done at the moment. Of course, 25 independent but interdependent actors in an open-world physics engine is better and it is also necessary in order to take the next step into realism.

[themadsheep2001]

That's an easy answer: the FM ME is not a mechanism that runs an open-ended, free-flowing simulation of 25 individual participants reacting and proacting to whatever happens on the pitch. Everything is scripted. The football being played is an illusion.

You see, when a winger runs down the flank past a full-back who fails a tackle and crosses to a striker who loses his marker and heads the ball in behind the keeper, that is not what you saw. What you actually saw was a goal that was scored that necessitated the keeper to not save, the central defender to not mark properly, the cross to not be imprecise and the full-back's tackle to be missed. That is one event with a calculated end result, not several incidents leading up to a goal. The fact that it looks like the latter is a matter of video editing skills.

This is all fine, since the evidence shows it is the best that can be done at the moment. Of course, 25 independent but interdependent actors in an open-world physics engine is better and it is also necessary in order to take the next step into realism.

I'm pretty sure that's not how the match engine works.... Although if PaulC is around and says otherwise I'll stand corrected

[Guest]

Every second on the pitch is fully simulated (it could actually be a smaller unit of time) & involves every player on the pitch, each match is calculated for the full 90 or 120 minutes, there is no time filler or guess work.

[nonleague]

Errrm, hate to point this out but this is the current real world Physioroom list http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/epl_injury_table.php it was worse in May too.

Bugger Herbie got up early

If you take a closer look you will see that a high % of those Real Life injuries are short term, ie, 1 week or less, where as in FM the greater proportion of injuries are long term.

[PaulC]

That's an easy answer: the FM ME is not a mechanism that runs an open-ended, free-flowing simulation of 25 individual participants reacting and proacting to whatever happens on the pitch. Everything is scripted. The football being played is an illusion.

You see, when a winger runs down the flank past a full-back who fails a tackle and crosses to a striker who loses his marker and heads the ball in behind the keeper, that is not what you saw. What you actually saw was a goal that was scored that necessitated the keeper to not save, the central defender to not mark properly, the cross to not be imprecise and the full-back's tackle to be missed. That is one event with a calculated end result, not several incidents leading up to a goal. The fact that it looks like the latter is a matter of video editing skills.

This is all fine, since the evidence shows it is the best that can be done at the moment. Of course, 25 independent but interdependent actors in an open-world physics engine is better and it is also necessary in order to take the next step into realism.

Haha, very amusing.

( And absolute nonsense, of course, but you knew that didnt you? )

[themadsheep2001]

If you take a closer look you will see that a high % of those Real Life injuries are short term, ie, 1 week or less, where as in FM the greater proportion of injuries are long term.

I think FM has the injury rates right, not so sure about the injury modelling though. Going to spend my next season detailing to see if I'm right, or if its merely perception bias on my part. Would also like to see more in game injury information.

[johnhughthom]

Looking back in my current save, I've had a tough run of fixture, with 2-3 games every week over a long period. I would have expected to pick up a number of niggly little injuries over that period, forcing my hand in team selection, but I've been able to rotate the team and keep my squad fresh as I simply haven't had any injuries. This is probably a lot more unrealistic than the number of injuries other people are complaining about, but we only complain when it goes against us, don't we...

[pewa2303]

there are still too many woodworks.

its annyoing. new match engine, same problem. in FM 2012 the average was 1.0. == too high.

any woodwork stats at hand? in my save: 1.0 per game

P

[Herbert Fandel]

Haha, very amusing.)

If Biggus is indeed wrong, which of course I defer to your knowledge on, then you need to improve the ME to make that show in matches. The current ME looks 100% like what he and I have described.

Of course I still find it hugely enjoyable, and always have, which has led to many a pointless argument on here, but I still think there is plenty of room for improvement, as you note yourself. Given that of course there is room for improvement in absolutely every technology in the world, I don't expect our opinions differ too greatly, and I am not at all suggesting the improvements I am after are easy or realistically attainable.

[Kriss]

If you take a closer look you will see that a high % of those Real Life injuries are short term, ie, 1 week or less, where as in FM the greater proportion of injuries are long term.

Only sometimes, I currently have 6 injuries and only one is more than a month.

It would take a great deal of analysis to see if the average save game equates to rl in terms of type and length of injury, I do think there are often discrepancies but I don't think they're as pronounced as some people claim.

[wally13]

I think the injury situation with fm as always been same, when you get them they come in clusters then you can go a fair few weeks without any and it seems an issue to some people when you get 3-4 in a week or 2

[Kriss]

If Biggus is indeed wrong, which of course I defer to your knowledge on, then you need to improve the ME to make that show in matches. The current ME looks 100% like what he and I have described.

Of course I still find it hugely enjoyable, and always have, which has led to many a pointless argument on here, but I still think there is plenty of room for improvement, as you note yourself. Given that of course there is room for improvement in absolutely every technology in the world, I don't expect our opinions differ too greatly, and I am not at all suggesting the improvements I am after are easy or realistically attainable.

Do remember that you're all talking about the 3D representation here, which has obvious limitations in it's ability to translate the match events into visible events.

2D and stats oriented managers have non of the problems you do because in 2D and stats the end product produces pretty accurate and believable information on the match events.

This was always going to be a problem when 3D was introduced and people opted to make their analysis and management decisions based on it's limited ability to portray the match events.

[Mons]

In my opinion, I think one of the bigger problems in the ME (apart from the GKs being absolute idiots at times) is the fact that the range of animations is a bit limited. This leads to instances where what is being conveyed on the ME is not exactly what is happening. For example, when a cross comes in irl, the first defender often tries to jump or extend a leg to block it but this is not necessarily succesful. In FM, it just hits his midriff or leg and it's not immediately clear whether it's a poor cross or whether it was a good defensive block.

GK animations are also particularly poor in this regard. You rarely feel that the keeper made every effort to save the shot, but rather that it's a token attempt. There's also hardly any technique-related tricks, or passes/shots played with the outside of the foot. Adding all these, and more, would help to give the ME a more immersive and realistic feel. I often find myself thinking that an animation is particularly poor and unrealistic, although most of the time I can understand what it is intended as displaying, which is what makes it so frustrating.

That said, by all accounts, this version of the match engine is the best one yet. Looking forward to more improvements thereof, however.

[Herbert Fandel]

Do remember that you're all talking about the 3D representation here, which has obvious limitations in it's ability to translate the match events into visible events.

2D and stats oriented managers have non of the problems you do because in 2D and stats the end product produces pretty accurate and believable information on the match events.

This was always going to be a problem when 3D was introduced and people opted to make their analysis and management decisions based on it's limited ability to portray the match events.

Yeh I know, I didnt repeat it in that post, but in an earlier one I said I was sure the underlying calculations were fine, just the 3d visualisations were odd. Although some of the things that trouble me, like long through balls seemingly being ignored by all execpt their recipient (on the occasions where they are calculated to make it) will surely manifest in 2d as well.

At the end of the day my main point is that the already good ME should be made better, not exactly controversial and surely in line with SI's own view.

I was just pointing out that my view had changed from the cliched "we are only beginning to see the true potential of this ME", to one of what I unknowledgably consider to be its understandable limits being apparent, as a result of its improvment in other areas.

[NorthernGooner]

Don't really know where to put this so thought I would just put it in here, Steam downloaded the patch for me, how come when I go to start a new game it still says version 13.0.0?

[wally13]

Don't really know where to put this so thought I would just put it in here, Steam downloaded the patch for me, how come when I go to start a new game it still says version 13.0.0?

Because the database has't been updated yet, once your in game you'll see it says 13.2.3

[taylorsmen]

Don't really know where to put this so thought I would just put it in here, Steam downloaded the patch for me, how come when I go to start a new game it still says version 13.0.0?

Look in 'Game status' to check your version is 13.2.3

[Dagenham_Dave]

game is 2 easy for me. and AI dont have chances at all. usually i have 15-20+ shots per game and AI maybe 2-5. Anyone else dont have challenge against AI? i was playing with Bari, Arsenal and Everton. WHen i buy few good players game becomes no brain game, i just click and win.

P.s. Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain is scorining like crazy playing inside forward on right W. he scored 20 goals from 21 game. and he has only 13 finishing. in real life, he would need 5 seasons to score 20 goals in premiership. Something is wrong, game needs bigger challenge , i mean im playing premiership, its the best league in the world. shouldnt be so easy.

Can you share your tactics then please, as I'm struggling badly across all my teams.

[CityAndColour]

First time in my entire CM/FM career that I've managed to get a back three, wing backs and an AMC co-existing in the same tactic. My front three are playing some stunning combination football.

Lucky enough too as my trusty 4-4-2, which has worked across all match engine builds to date, crashed and burned with the update.

[CityAndColour]

Also, the number of corners seems to have increased ten fold on my save.

[timbo1983]

Do remember that you're all talking about the 3D representation here, which has obvious limitations in it's ability to translate the match events into visible events.

2D and stats oriented managers have non of the problems you do because in 2D and stats the end product produces pretty accurate and believable information on the match events.

This was always going to be a problem when 3D was introduced and people opted to make their analysis and management decisions based on it's limited ability to portray the match events.

Hi Kriss,

I am new to these forums but read ALOT of them trying to get my head around this years ME prior to this patch. So alot of the stuff I am reading on here is new to me.

You're comment here seems to be contradictory to alot of advice from other moderators in tactical help sections I have spent some time in. They consistently recommend for players to watch matches in "full match" highlights to try and determine where there tactics are going wrong. But your comment above reads to me as though watching the match in "full match" mode makes no difference.

I am not having a dig at yourself or any of the other mods, however I am now confused as to why one would need to watch their match in "full match" highlights to see where their tactic is going wrong, when you are saying that due to the limitations of the 3D representation, what we are seeing has little to no bearing on what is actually happening tactically?

[dking]

I'm noticing my CB's more often than not stand around and do nothing when the ball is crossed into the box. I seem to be conceding a lot of goals because of awful defending from supposedly very good defenders. They just don't pick seem to pick up players properly.

Anybody else noticing this?

[themadsheep2001]

Hi Kriss,

I am new to these forums but read ALOT of them trying to get my head around this years ME prior to this patch. So alot of the stuff I am reading on here is new to me.

You're comment here seems to be contradictory to alot of advice from other moderators in tactical help sections I have spent some time in. They consistently recommend for players to watch matches in "full match" highlights to try and determine where there tactics are going wrong. But your comment above reads to me as though watching the match in "full match" mode makes no difference.

I am not having a dig at yourself or any of the other mods, however I am now confused as to why one would need to watch their match in "full match" highlights to see where their tactic is going wrong, when you are saying that due to the limitations of the 3D represent, what we are seeing has little to no bearing on what is actually happening tactically?

Watching a match in full doesn't mean you have to watch it in 3D, you can watch a match in full in 2D. 3D does give you a good representation, but its also limited by the number of animations. At no point is it suggested that watching the match in full match mode makes no difference.

I personal do watch it in full on 3D, and its (personally) easy to follow and interpret, but it certainly could do with more animations, especially goalkeepers.

[CityAndColour]

I'm noticing my CB's more often than not stand around and do nothing when the ball is crossed into the box. I seem to be conceding a lot of goals because of awful defending from supposedly very good defenders. They just don't pick seem to pick up players properly.

Anybody else noticing this?

Was constant with my 4-4-2. The ball would often hit them in the back too.

[Lawlore]

Isn't that a bit apples and oranges? Although I'm not a frequenter of the Tactical forum, presumably the point they are making is that seeing more of how your team are playing, in Full Match, will help you better assess than in Key or Extended? In that respect, it makes no difference if it is shown in 2D or 3D- indeed, because of the animation limitations Kriss is talking about, 2D may give a better idea.

[dazbowski]

Anyone got 352 working since the update?

[dooro23]

Some thoughts after playing a whole season with the new ME:

- Dwelling on the ball seems a bit odd and happens more often than in the previous ME. You can really tell in situations once this dwelling thing kicks in and know you're gonna lose the ball with seemingly no action or intent to by the ballhandler. Those are mostly situations where the player stands still or walks slowly until he gets closed down, he then doesn't try anything that might be down to him wanting to keep the ball or it's not where he's paying the price for holding the ball too long and being unaware of the closing down. It's not those situations that are in fluid play. I said odd and strange, because like I also said, you can tell when it happens and it feels somewhat out of place. I have no problem with it happening more often (which might well be subjective perception), but there is no shielding the ball, losing it due to a dribbling attempt or something like that or being unaware of the incoming "steal". Those happen too and blend in with play, the other dwells don't.

- I noticed something in the earlier ME, but I put that down to the already acknowledged through ball issues: First, I have no problem with the offensive minded through balls that directly create chances, those work again nicely. But now I notice an issue with more casual passes even more than before. It seems like players often don't play a simple pass in the run (rather jog, I don't mean the fast through balls) of another player like it would be natural in no pressure situations. If my DC has the ball, the opposition is in their own half and there is no pressure from them, then my full back is jogging a few yards slowly and the DC tries to shift the build-up to the FB's side, he'll often pass the ball right to the guy's feet, not in his (slow) run. It's happening in the opponent's half too, but mind, I'm talking about the plain and normal passing, not when the speed of play picks up or through balls get played. Not conclusively every time, but it's awkward too when it happens and the frequency suggests not just bad passing by the player.

- Closing down: I noticed defending player's keeping the same distance once they closed down the ballhandler, regardless of the location of the attacker/defender "pairing" on the pitch. the closer they get to goal, the weirder it is, like the defender being unaware of being in the penalty area already. It's nice how they throw themselves in last ditch tackles now, but this same distance keeping holds it back by quite a bit.

Overall I really enjoy the new ME, despite the above issues, which are holding it back. Only thing that actually bothers me is, IF there are proven (not just perceived ofc) bugs it's very daft to not fix them until FM14, IF that's what earlier statements by PaulC meant. (Obviously I'm not talking about juggling, balancing, optimising the ME or working on things we dislike or want to get changed, which is fair enough.)

[dking]

Was constant with my 4-4-2. The ball would often hit them in the back too.

I must say, I'm pretty sick of the ball hitting my own players. I was hoping it might be fixed but it hasn't been.

[Loversleaper]

I think that the ME is pretty balanced in terms of settings and strategies - except the Overload area. It seems impossible to go to a 4-2-4 All Out Attack in the last ten minutes as it once was in the FM series...

[Suzie MUFC]

I must say, I'm pretty sick of the ball hitting my own players. I was hoping it might be fixed but it hasn't been.

I've been having that all the time since the game's release. Really annoying, thought it would've been fixed by now.

[scott MUFC]

4-2-4 worked in FM12 for 90 minutes.

you need 4-4-2 with left and right midfields set to wingers.

[Kriss]

Watching a match in full doesn't mean you have to watch it in 3D, you can watch a match in full in 2D. 3D does give you a good representation, but its also limited by the number of animations. At no point is it suggested that watching the match in full match mode makes no difference.

I personal do watch it in full on 3D, and its (personally) easy to follow and interpret, but it certainly could do with more animations, especially goalkeepers.

Clarified it for me I do watch full matches very often, but in 2D because that enables me to see movement on and off the ball and how the ball gets worked from back to front better.

I judge how my individual players are performing based on their stats rather than a few inadequate 3D animations.

[Lord Rowell]

Haha, very amusing.

( And absolute nonsense, of course, but you knew that didnt you? )

PaulC - genuine question, how does it work?

I was under the impression from something I read many moons ago, that the ME calculated events first, with the 3D/2D/Commentary illustrating that sequence of play afterwards. Am I correct with that, or not?

[Kriss]

PaulC - genuine question, how does it work?

I was under the impression from something I read many moons ago, that the ME calculated events first, with the 3D/2D/Commentary illustrating that sequence of play afterwards. Am I correct with that, or not?

It does, you're actually watching highlights of a match already played but which gets replayed from any point when you change things so new highlights are generated for the remainder of the match or until you make further changes.

[Lord Rowell]

It does, you're actually watching highlights of a match already played but which gets replayed from any point when you change things so new highlights are generated for the remainder of the match or until you make further changes.

Thanks Kriss

[Herbert Fandel]

It does, you're actually watching highlights of a match already played but which gets replayed from any point when you change things so new highlights are generated for the remainder of the match or until you make further changes.

Thats what I thought too, based on PaulC's previous comments over time, but then PaulC called it nonsense today? I realise it isn't worded the same as what Biggus D said, but I understand them to mean the same thing. Will quite happily have someone explain to me the difference though.