*Official* FM 13 Update 13.2.3 - Match Engine v1339 Constructive Discussion & Feedback

[SRL88]

Oh okay so this just changes the match engine and all that sort of stuff? Have they said around about what time the transfer update will be released? and will it automatically install in steam? Thanks.

Basically everything which is listed in the OP of this Feedback thread and the other one are the changes which were made.

As for the transfer update, I honestly can't give you a date. I don't know, neither will anyone else until it is actually released. It will be automatically updated via Steam though.

[Jordannn]

Basically everything which is listed in the OP of this Feedback thread and the other one are the changes which were made.

As for the transfer update, I honestly can't give you a date. I don't know, neither will anyone else until it is actually released. It will be automatically updated via Steam though.

Ahh okay then! Thanks for answering my question.

[DuncanBarr]

For those who say that ME errors such as players running into each other, unforced errors and the ball hitting players is down to peoples tactics ask yourselves this: would professional players of any standard do such things depending on tactical instructions? Of course they wouldn't!!! All this does is highlight that if it IS tactics then FM has got to the point where tactics are definitely more important to how a team or player plays than in real life if poor tactical choices result in players running into each other etc.

Agree with those who also point out that complaints about the ME are not necessarily down to poor results. Ive taken Bishops Stortford to League 1 and soon to be theChampionship, but find the ME unwatchable. Its simply awful to watch. I think this is a key point that the "its your tactics" crowd fail to realise that win, lose or draw watching the FM13 ME is a joyless experience, the amount of stupid things players do in unforced situations is unbelievable.

This for me is the biggest problem in that its not like watching a real game, I had hoped that this was all down to playing in the lower leagues but watching some AI CL and Premiership games I see the same.

[screen]

ALL this is fine for me, everything. apart from injures.

+1 cant play a decent game with all those injuries..

[Tubey84]

Better SI! Massive improvement on the travesty of a patch that was 13.2.2 anyway. Much fewer complaints from me.

The ME is the best it's been this year, which was predictable. The challenge is for FM14 to not be in Beta stage for the first four or five months after release. I personally will be waiting until February to buy FM14 for the first time unless I hear very good things about the game out of the box, and I suspect an increasing number of people will do the same.

But that's for the future. As it stands, long shots are better, the physics seem more fluent, free kicks are hit with purpose, animations match the movement of the ball on most occasions... Everythings fine.

Just two small issues. Injuries need tweaking possibly, but I can live with that as it's universal across the game so effects all squads, and it's not that far off anyway. Bigger issue is the random "stupid" passing in defence, usually involving the 'keeper, but it's not too bad. Compared to 13.2.2 it's a different world, so even with these small faults I'm just thankful it's been fixed!!!

Good job; now work on FM14 to be this stable in November 2013, not February 2014!!!

[Thierry Henrhys]

For those who say that ME errors such as players running into each other, unforced errors and the ball hitting players is down to peoples tactics ask yourselves this: would professional players of any standard do such things depending on tactical instructions? Of course they wouldn't!!! All this does is highlight that if it IS tactics then FM has got to the point where tactics are definitely more important to how a team or player plays than in real life if poor tactical choices result in players running into each other etc.

Agree with those who also point out that complaints about the ME are not necessarily down to poor results. Ive taken Bishops Stortford to League 1 and soon to be theChampionship, but find the ME unwatchable. Its simply awful to watch. I think this is a key point that the "its your tactics" crowd fail to realise that win, lose or draw watching the FM13 ME is a joyless experience, the amount of stupid things players do in unforced situations is unbelievable.

This for me is the biggest problem in that its not like watching a real game, I had hoped that this was all down to playing in the lower leagues but watching some AI CL and Premiership games I see the same.

And with that, I will not be playing FM13 anymore.

I'm currently managing Crewe and it's 2023. I've not managed in a top league year because I've just spent my time going to clubs for a little bit, getting a few promotions and then leaving before I get too attached. Highest league I've managed in was the champioship. Anyway, the point is that I was hoping that if I stuck it out and got to the top leagues these errors would disappear but it would seem that they do not.

To quote Duncan Bannatine, I'm ooouuut.

See you for FM2014

[Sussex Hammer]

Couple of things I have noticed after playing longer :

*** Full backs are still making unrealistic mazy dribbling runs at times the length of the pitch. Mine and the AI.

***There is a real delay in central midfielders tracking back. They at times start at walking pace and then suddenly go into full sprint like the coding has just kicked in.

***Long shots are better but still too many from wingers and full backs, even though all players are on rare.

However generally I think it's a major improvement on the previous patch, personally I haven't experienced any major increase in injuries or cards.

Can I just add my two pennyworth on the "it's your tactics" argument. Whilst the ME does need some more work, I'm sure all will agree it's not 100% perfect, it is quite possible that certain tactics made for the previous patch may struggle in some areas with the new one. Think about it logically. The previous patch was overloaded with too many long shots and too few through balls, that I think most would agree on. Some may then have decided, and quite understandably to tinker with their tactics and say reduce long shots and increase through balls. Now those two areas have been improved it may have a knock on effect at previous tactics. A player on often through balls may now be actually playing them often and that could mean a more regular loss of possession. It stands to reason. Try more risky passes you may lose it more often especially if your player trying that is not a good passer.

Same with tackling. To try and make your players tackle more you may place them on hard tackling. However if they are not good tacklers they may miss more tackles or make more fouls, hence an increase in cards. The problem is that the ME graphics probably don't show that it just shows up on screen as what looks like a silly mistake that shouldn't happen.

I'm playing with a basic classic tactic with a standard creative freedom and for all players bar centre backs and keeper I use mixed settings for most players. It's far from a super tactic but it seems to play quite well. My players do alright, nothing special but no real bizarre issues. The reason I say this is that maybe if you are experiencing some extreme bizarreness then maybe try an experiment with a very bog standard tactic set up and see if those issues continue. If they do then obviously there are ME issues to address. If they don't then possibly things are due to for example a poor dribbler with run with ball often set or a poor passer with often through balls set up. Just an idea.

[smdw2008]

I think this update is better than before

[sevra]

My friend, I think you have managed to point out all the wrong things I have seen since the update. I will add one more thing about through balls. In my experience they are either underhit or overhead, in which case the attacking player tries to intercept the ball in flight, rather then chase it and not lose momentum. The underhit ones basically ruin the potential of the attack. And The players that do them have passing of 14 or above.

That's definetely what I am experiencing and I believe to be written into the ME codes. As I already ponted out in this post: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/346752-*Official*-FM-13-Update-13.2.3-Match-Engine-v1339-Constructive-Discussion-amp-Feedback?p=8544871&viewfull=1#post8544871, better players should be able to choose wisely between a chipped (underhit) kick or a plain kick to release a through pass, however ALL PLAYERS PREFER A CHIPPED (UNDERHIT) KICK REGARDLESS ALL CIRCUMSTANCE in the current ME. They are not even 50%-50% randomized. So SI plz take a look at it.

[NesaStrah]

Guys, can anyone tell me, where can i post a feedback about FM 2013 as game?

I am frustrated for no more "LAN mode" and i want SI to know that

[Zaltys]

Same with tackling. To try and make your players tackle more you may place them on hard tackling. However if they are not good tacklers they may miss more tackles or make more fouls, hence an increase in cards.

Except it affects the AI too. As I mentioned previously, I've seen several AI players get five red cards in a season. That'd be enough to propel them to the Top25 of red card stats in one season and to the top spot in two.

To put it into perspective: the record number of red cards in Premier is eight, currently held by Patrick Vieira, Duncan Ferguson and Richard Dunne. That's the number of Premier reds over their whole careers. There's something wrong if a player can top those records in just two seasons.

[Shakes]

Except it affects the AI too. As I mentioned previously, I've seen several AI players get five red cards in a season. That'd be enough to propel them to the Top25 of red card stats in one season and to the top spot in two.

To put it into perspective: the record number of red cards in Premier is eight, currently held by Patrick Vieira, Duncan Ferguson and Richard Dunne. That's the number of Premier reds over their whole careers. There's something wrong if a player can top those records in just two seasons.

This has to be a league specific issue or something then, as I'm seeing completely the opposite in my just completed season in the Portuguese second tier. No team got more than 4 red cards with about half the league on 0 in a 42 game season, and no team averaged even 1 yellow a match. The real life stats show the leading teams with 96 yellows and 10 reds already this year!

This is despite tackling stats being absurdly high, 30+ tackles by every team, leading teams on 40+ and leading players on 8+. The guy leading my tackles per game put in over 100 tackles per yellow, he must be the cleanest player on earth.

[Herbert Fandel]

For those who say that ME errors such as players running into each other, unforced errors and the ball hitting players is down to peoples tactics ask yourselves this: would professional players of any standard do such things depending on tactical instructions? Of course they wouldn't!!!

If your tactic sees 3 or 4 people occupying the same space on an attack, and then someone on the edge of the box pinging off a shot having had it passed back to them, they might not have much choice...

I agree with you its still not much like real football, but I don't see anything like the amount of stupid decisions you claim to.

[Ivo-BG]

for me the previous ME was the most fun to casually play, since the latest patch the fun has been destroyed.

is there anyway to roll back the patch? thought i'd ask here instead of making a new thread

There is and it's pretty easy actually.

[Govnar1]

The only way SI will consider making changes this late in the FM13 cycle is if people provide enough examples of these consistent & unrealistically frequent issues, looking in the ME bugs forum there has hardly been what you could call a massive surge in activity.

You mean something like: twice as many tackles and interceptions in game compared to real life. If this is not a major ME issue I don't know what is.

[Govnar1]

...And regarding the collision detection, I have seen two players stuck inside a third player during a corner I then forth player emerged from the goalkeepers back run straight through them and scored! This things don't happen that often but players still can run through each other.

[Guest]

You mean something like: twice as many tackles and interceptions in game compared to real life. If this is not a major ME issue I don't know what is.

Yep, if you see it report it.

[Govnar1]

Yep, if you see it report it.

I did page 7 - post 618:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/346752-*Official*-FM-13-Update-13.2.3-Match-Engine-v1339-Constructive-Discussion-amp-Feedback?p=8541922#post8541922

I reported this issue for one of previous patches as well but neither developers nor community seem to consider it a problem.

[Herbert Fandel]

I did page 7 - post 618:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/346752-*Official*-FM-13-Update-13.2.3-Match-Engine-v1339-Constructive-Discussion-amp-Feedback?p=8541922#post8541922

I reported this issue for one of previous patches as well but neither developers nor community seem to consider it a problem.

Did you submit it as a bug report?

[Guest]

Unfortunately things can get missed is threads of this size, to ensure that an issue is looked at it should also be raised in the ME bugs forum, that's not to say what you've raised hasn't been looked at as I see that one of the SI bods posted shortly after your post.

tbh I am not a fan of these feedback threads as some very valid & useful information can be drowned out by a whole lot of noise & we can all be as bad as each other on that issue.

[Govnar1]

Did you submit it as a bug report?

No I didn't, as it is not really a bug like players sticking together on corners. This is official feedback tread so I hoped developers are reading it. If it will be of any help I can upload save later. I merely holidayed trough half a season to see if SI fixed the issue in latest patch.

[Govnar1]

tbh I am not a fan of these feedback threads as some very valid & useful information can be drowned out by a whole lot of noise & we can all be as bad as each other on that issue.

You are absolutely right, moderation is far too "soft" in my opinion.

Report in ME bugs forum: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/347458-Too-many-tackles-and-interceptions-in-game-compared-to-real-life-numbers?p=8553948#post8553948

[luka_zg]

Having to change at least one player every game due to an injury (either serious, or green cross or knock where fitness goes below 70%) is not realistic. It is really annoying.

[fmFutbolManager]

Having to change at least one player every game due to an injury (either serious, or green cross or knock where fitness goes below 70%) is not realistic. It is really annoying.

Every single game you're picking up a knock. EVERY single game without fail you're forced into a substitution?

[luka_zg]

Every single game you're picking up a knock. EVERY single game without fail you're forced into a substitution?

well, out of 34 league games, roughly I'll say in 30 games I am. My team was ravaged by injuries last season, I had like 8 players out on 2-3 month long injuries in the middle of a season, and all players were injured in like 5,6 games!!..That's only red cross injuries. My training is average intensity, I have 6 physios with 17+ physiotherapy..

[marsbar06]

I have given the new patch a good go now without major success and a few dismissals along the way but now after feeling really frustrated and getting close to snapping the disc with previous patches I am FINALLY getting some enjoyment. This is not to do with a sudden streak of form, I have gained promotion from Ligue 2 (only to be sacked) but ultimately I always fail with bigger clubs as I cannot get consistent results. The way I have started to enjoy again is by stepping back and reminding myself that this is a computer simulation, FM12 was a one and this is a completely different beast, so I may be a 7 times champions league winner with Brighton in my FM12 reality but unfortunately i'm unemployed and without a club most days in FM13 life. I will get there in the end i'm sure by exploiting some weakness in the AI like everybody else, trying to remember this game is not football as we know it and all of the clubs and people within it are not real is important - I found a quote which seems apt

The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails

[scott MUFC]

try having a player with 14 injury proneness

first time i have got them to play 2 games in a row without a stupid knock. they usualy last under 45 minutes.

most frustrating thing i am seeing currently is, creating multiple chances all on target, all headed or shot, directly at the keeper time and time again.

[fmFutbolManager]

well, out of 34 league games, roughly I'll say in 30 games I am. My team was ravaged by injuries last season, I had like 8 players out on 2-3 month long injuries in the middle of a season, and all players were injured in like 5,6 games!!..That's only red cross injuries. My training is average intensity, I have 6 physios with 17+ physiotherapy..

Is this 8 first team players out in the middle of the season for 2-3 months, or are you including reserves? How big is your squad and what competitions are you in?

I ask because a small squad playing >1 game a week can fatigue quickly unless you rotate and use your reserves in smaller games. Using fatigued players will almost definitely result in injury to them.

Picking up knocks is part of the game and will happen. I watch a lot of football to see in almost every game players take knocks. They either dust themselves down and get on with it or they come off.

[Zaltys]

Having to change at least one player every game due to an injury (either serious, or green cross or knock where fitness goes below 70%) is not realistic. It is really annoying.

That is, in fact, completely realistic.

What's not is the length of those injuries. I don't think FM simulates faked injuries at all...and the average length of the injury seems to be longer than in real life. Furthermore, AI seems to have some issues with it. Such as that Macau national pool that I mentioned: third of the players were out at once. It evened out afterwards, but I have wonder what caused it...

(If one more goalkeeper had got injured, I don't know what would've happened in the national team selection. Because there were only two fit goalies left in the whole country and you're required to have three in the team..)

[Kriss]

You are absolutely right, moderation is far too "soft" in my opinion.

We can't moderate how people think, only how they put it across and we have been far more hardline this year than ever before.

This kind of thread is of course frustrating because of all the dross but the fact is it's incredibly useful to SI who know exactly what's valid and what isn't.

What never ceases to amaze me is the extent to which it shows how little so many people know about football, software and its limitations and especially the computers that they use to play it on.

People my age are supposed to be technophobes but I snort in disbelief at the ignorance of some allegedly tech age people where computing is concerned.

[SRL88]

And Kriss is old, like, very old .

[Govnar1]

We can't moderate how people think, only how they put it across and we have been far more hardline this year than ever before.

This kind of thread is of course frustrating because of all the dross but the fact is it's incredibly useful to SI who know exactly what's valid and what isn't.

What never ceases to amaze me is the extent to which it shows how little so many people know about football, software and its limitations and especially the computers that they use to play it on.

People my age are supposed to be technophobes but I snort in disbelief at the ignorance of some allegedly tech age people where computing is concerned.

Deleting all the posts starting with variation of "This game is sh_t my team has lost a game...", ""This game is so unrealistic my players occasionally pick up an injury...", "It your tactic my L2 team just won fifth CL title in row..." and "This game is best ever SI can't do no wrong..." would help a lot .

[SRL88]

Deleting all the posts starting with variation of "This game is sh_t my team has lost a game...", ""This game is so unrealistic my players occasionally pick up an injury...", "It your tactic my L2 team just won fifth CL title in row..." and "This game is best ever SI can't do no wrong..." would help a lot .

Posts along these lines are moderated in the correct and appropriate manner, but moderators can't see everything so sometimes things can slip past us. The moderators here especially have a very tough job, and do a fantastic one at that.

[forameuss]

The moderators here especially have a very tough job, and do a fantastic one at that.

Says the mod

On topic, although I was never one for claiming the previous ME was particularly bad, I can see the improvements in this one. Given my first game playing with it was the 2054 World Cup Final with Scotland against Spain and I won (maybe I'm just biased) but it seems a lot more "real". And before anyone responds to that with "How can you think this ME is more real?" or whatever other rubbish, I think your expectations are too high. I don't think we will ever see an FM ME (or any other ME for that fact, have you seen FIFA? It's an absolute travesty) that will properly model a game of football. It simply can't be done. I understand the frustrations when "stupid" things happen, but these issues are all looked at and addressed and thrown into a pile of issues that may end up conflicting with each other once fixed. It's never going to be perfect, but it's pretty damn good.

[SRL88]

Says the mod

This isn't a forum I moderate so I consider myself blessed sometimes .

[milnerpoint]

This isn't a forum I moderate so I consider myself blessed sometimes .

Makes two of us

[SRL88]

Makes two of us

Marked as one to watch.

[milnerpoint]

Marked as one to watch.

Hahahaha

Im sure that mark was made a while ago now

[SRL88]

Hahahaha

Im sure that mark was made a while ago now

Haha, you are probably right .

[sirgiorgio]

I totally disagree that fitness/condition has no effect. I make a real effort at squad rotation, and ensuring I always have 11 players starting a match at 93% condition plus, where the players are not rated by the game as tired. I often notice my team taking control of a game at the end, and certain don't have the problem with conceding late goals that other players do. In the second half of my current season, the teams in and around me have been playing a lot of matches with players in the 70/80% range and I have pulled away in the league. At the start of January I was neck and neck with my closest rivals, with a couple of games left in the season I'm 25 points clear. I believe this is largely due to my playing week in, week out with a fully fit team.

That's what I thought and what I did. But apparently I was wrong.

First of all, I don't think the effects in the short run can be reduced to "late goals". In fact, I have the opposite problem: sometimes, when I see a tired player and I make a substitution, it's a matter of minutes before I concede a goal… But in any case, I should be able to "see" the difference between a tired or lightly injured player and a fully fit one. In terms of performance and movements on the pitch, at least. My rule of thumb now is: don't do anything unless you see a clear mismatch or something you can exploit.

As for the effects in the long run, tbh I could easily reverse your reasoning: if you didn't rotate the team in the first part of the season, then maybe "at the start of January" you would have had a considerable advantage over your rivals. It all depends, I guess: I like to be the rabbit, you like to be the turtle…

Anyway, it doesn't take a certified fitness coach to say that:

1. A twentysomething, fully fit professional player needs no more than 24-48 hours to fully recover his condition after a match;

2. For a twentysomething, fully fit professional player, fatigue is a factor only after the 60th minute;

3. It is relatively easy to determine if, how and when you want your twentysomething, professional players to be at their top form. Squad rotation is one factor, but not the major one: specific training regimes are much more important. And that's something you can't do in FM.

[fmFutbolManager]

On the subject of fatigue, AI managers seem reluctant to withdraw their players that are <70% condition. I've noticed games where players are into the 50/60% condition and still being on the pitch.

[AllUrBase]

I tend to see this thing whenever I start a season in a league there wasn't running in full detail the previous season (usually due to promotion).

The thing is when I go into a team report to prepare for the next game I usually look at how goals are scored and conceded. Sometimes there will be an inordinate amount of overhead kicks scored and conceded. Despite playing hundreds of hours I have yet to see an ingame goal scored or even attempt at goal with an overhead kick. It therefore seems quite odd that a team would have scored 2 goals on overhead kicks and conceded 6 in the last 20 games.

I think this could have something to do with how matches are simulated when not on full detail, since the last 20 games wouldn't have been running full detail.

[johnhughthom]

Having to change at least one player every game due to an injury (either serious, or green cross or knock where fitness goes below 70%) is not realistic. It is really annoying.

You do realise those knocks where the fitness drops, but the player doesn't get a cross aren't permanent? The player's fitness will start to rise again, and quite often they can play the full 90 minutes.

Whether that's a realistic and intuitive way to show the effects of a knock is another story altogether...

[Adam Dunbar]

The glaring one for me after a couple of matches is (as many have mentioned) the ball not slowing down and racing away like it's on ice or like there's a tornado blowing.

It's a shame cos it impacts on every pass not just the long ones, and as a result effects the whole feel of the match negatively imo.

After a few more matches, you do actually get used to this - is not a game-breaker for me now, could be better but the more I'm playing, the less I'm noticing it personally

[Duro]

After a few more matches, you do actually get used to this - is not a game-breaker for me now, could be better but the more I'm playing, the less I'm noticing it personally

To me is important to know if SI will fix this problem. It´s so evident and a major problem, that take me the joy of playing.

[Herbert Fandel]

Could one of you post a video where you feel it is evidently displayed? SI have stated that they think it isn't inaccurate, and I wouldn't say that I ever see it. This has led to some theories where people think it shows up differently on different machines or whatever.

The amount of people who mention it suggests that there is at least something worthy of mention, but having never seen it myself I really can't imagine what it looks like.

I'd be interested to see whether people see the same as me, but consider it too unrealistic, or whether people are indeed seeing something different.

[Emmeth]

Yesterday I gave my first try to the new ME, I have played around 20 matches.

I have to say the new ME is great, much much better than the previous one. No more stupid moves of players, no more silly long shots and a general overall improvement.

I had some mid term injuries but it seems they are not different from the previous version so, till now, I would like to express my appreciation to SI, it took long time but the final ME result is great.

[Keyzer Soze]

There is a big difference in the ball physics from FM2012 to FM2013, and because of that it's kinda hard to get used to the new ball.

First time i play FM2013 i thought the ball was too fast, and at time seems that the players had no control over the ball.

Now, when i play FM2012 the game just feels so slow... like all games are played in a puddle of mud.

I'm not saying the the ball from FM2013 is perfect and that people that think there are issues are wrong. I'm just saying that, we all play many years with a ball physics that was very different... perhaps we just need to be accustomed to the new ball.

[Rashidi]

And Kriss is old, like, very old .

Kriss was moderating when I first joined the forums, he was moderating when I got married, he was moderating when I got divorced, he was still moderating when I took 5 years off from the game, he was moderating when i was moderating, I come back and he's still here. Damn hes an FM ICON even :-)

On a note thats a bit more offtopic, I kinda think that teamtalks may be having too much of an effect on the game atm, its just a feeling and I need more games to affirm this, and will post more if I can get a better correlation

[dazbowski]

I genuinely think this ME is much better, however the lack of productivity from wingers is ruining it. Any sort of wide play is stiffled and it's very difficult to get first time crosses in even with hit crosses early shout enabled. Also the amount of headers infront of goal missed is way too high.

The other niggles are dawdling players getting robbed of possesion, silly backpasses and the amount of undefendable IDFK's/