Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?

[SebastianRO]

39 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

Out of interest, do you win lots of trophies/promotions?

It depends on the team I start with. I have a few teams that I play with every year because these are my fav clubs:

AC Milan - my favourite team - If I just play (like most people play the game), then yes ... I do win competitions, cups, etc. But most of the times I play with AC Milan I don't play like that. I challenge myself with either: having a squad with 100% italian players, or recreating some revolutionary tactic from the past (like Catenaccio, or total football or smth), etc. This is normally the way I play with AC Milan. Even when I do win cups and competions every season, I still don't think the game needs to be harder because this game is played on multiple fronts: finance, squad building, matches (results), staff. Football Manager simply isn't just about results.

Dynamo Dresden - a club I like and a city I love - When I play with them, the game isn't easy by any standard, so no, I don't win many things with them for the first few seasons. Given the fact that they now start in 3.Liga it would take me about 4 years at least before I can consider challenging for the German Cup.

I am not a lower league type of player as I never found much enjoyment there, but I do play with teams that are considered "weak", like Dresden or Monza, etc and I stand by what I said: the game doesn't need to be any easier or any harder. I personally never thought "This game is too easy". It is natural and normal to have an easier time when playing a big club. You can't just choose playing AC Milan, but at the same time expect to be challenged by the likes of Pescara and Monza. You will simply crush those teams 95% of the time. The challenge for this type of team would be when playing in UCL and balancing the squad. Good luck.

Edited November 17, 2020 by SebastianRO

[dannysheard]

3 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

It depends on the team I start with. I have a few teams that I play with every year because these are my fav clubs:

AC Milan - my favourite team - If I just play (like most people play the game), then yes ... I do win competitions, cups, etc. But most of the times I play with AC Milan I don't play like that. I challenge myself with either: having a squad with 100% italian players, or recreating some revolutionary tactic from the past (like Catenaccio, or total football or smth), etc. This is normally the way I play with AC Milan. Even when I do win cups and competions every season, I still don't think the game needs to be harder because this game is played on multiple fronts: finance, squad building, matches (results), staff. Football Manager simply isn't just about results.

Dynamo Dresden - a club I like and a city I love - When I play with them, the game isn't easy by any standard, so no, I don't win many things with them for the first few seasons. Given the fact that they now start in 3.Liga it would take me about 4 years at least before I can consider challenging for the German Cup.

I am not a lower league type of player as I never found much enjoyment there, but I do play with teams that are considered "weak", like Dresden or Monza, etc and I stand by what I said: the game doesn't need to be any easier or any harder. I personally never thought "This game is too easy". It is natural and normal to have an easier time when playing a big club. You can't just choose playing AC Milan, but at the same time expect to be challenged by the likes of Pescara and Monza. You will simply crush those teams 95% of the time. The challenge for this type of team would be when playing in UCL and balancing the squad. Good luck.

So just to confirm, when you play with Milan, who are probably the 5th or 6th best club in the league, and play normally, you did win lots of stuff?

[Broken_Record]

5 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

So just to confirm, when you play with Milan, who are probably the 5th or 6th best club in the league, and play normally, you did win lots of stuff?

With team like AC Milan (or any other) you should not be forced to "sabotage" your own gameplay or invent challenges to yourself. The game should be difficult enough to provide a good challenge, no matter what team you pick. This is a simple thing that the game developers will also hopefully see at some point. 

[SebastianRO]

Just now, dannysheard said:

So just to confirm, when you play with Milan, who are probably the 5th or 6th best club in the league, and play normally, you did win lots of stuff?

You are asking the wrong question @dannysheard, but to answer it, yes I do. The right question is " When do you start winning silverware ?" or "How quick do you become the most dominant team in the league?". I am going to repeat myself and say it again: this game is not just about the results in one season. I find this game to be like a war on multiple fronts and overall I think it's well balanced.

[dannysheard]

7 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

With team like AC Milan (or any other) you should not be forced to "sabotage" your own gameplay or invent challenges to yourself. The game should be difficult enough to provide a good challenge, no matter what team you pick. This is a simple thing that the game developers will also hopefully see at some point. 

This. When did we reach the point where, in a football management simulation, the advice for any half-decent player is that you need to sabotage your own game if you want a realistic save?

Does the game need a disclaimer after the features list? Please be aware that using these new features, or any of the old ones, will cause you to massively overachieve and the game won't be challenging.

[dannysheard]

6 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

You are asking the wrong question @dannysheard, but to answer it, yes I do. The right question is " When do you start winning silverware ?" or "How quick do you become the most dominant team in the league?". I am going to repeat myself and say it again: this game is not just about the results in one season. I find this game to be like a war on multiple fronts and overall I think it's well balanced.

Do you win the league in the first season if you really try?

[IrrelevantLion]

1 hour ago, Broken_Record said:

Well, take a look at the most popular FM streamers for example. Most of them don't have a clue what they are doing, are only watching games on key highlights and not paying attention to any details or features. And how are they doing with the game: well quite well, I would say. 

That for me is quite good indication about the level of difficulty and it also shows that by having the game as it is, it's not attracting large amount of people to try and learn the features of the game. 

Simply put, all this is encouraging lazy gameplay and making the game basically an arcade. 

You're also once again missing the point in here. One of the main questions that I'm trying to ask is that "is the game supposed to be easy for anyone?". In my opinion no, because this kills the whole idea of the game. 

Loki Doki? 

[SebastianRO]

Just now, dannysheard said:

Do you win the league in the first season if you really try?

It happened a few times, but normally I don't. In the first season I try to get the squad right and in the second season I really go for it, but realistically I only win it in my 3rd season. Yes, it can be different each time, as AI decisions are something I cannot control and sometimes they do make better decisions which makes it very hard for me to win the league or it can make it very easy. As an example, I am playing AC Milan right now in the beta and I am now finishing my 3rd season. Won the league in my 3rd season by 2 points against Juventus. Inter was 3rd, 2 points behind me. I also got as far as the quarter finals of UCL. For me, this is exactly what I would expect from the game.

To quote you "if you rally try" ... My approach towards each save is the same and that includes sacrificing some results if I have to for the greater good like selling a top earner and promoting a youngster in which I believe, or saacrificing the league for the european competition, etc. I NEVER go just for the result in front of me. That would be my 1st choice if I would play journeyman (which I haven't done in 7 years, since FM14). My approach is always long term. I am not trying to convincee you @dannysheardthat the game doesn't need any tweaking with regards to the difficulty level. I am just saying that for me it's perfectly fine and I feel strongly about this. I guess it depends on how you play it.

[FlorianAlbert9]

In my opionion, if FM would call itself simulation, then be the Liverpool (or any other top club) manager should be the hardest playing level, not the easiest.

 

Said that, the other problem is that in every league, even in poor nation, once you become the best, you will remain the best forever and with very high margin

Edited November 17, 2020 by FlorianAlbert9

[Broken_Record]

4 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

In my opionion, if FM would call itself simulation, then be the Liverpool (or any other top club) manager should be the hardest playing level, not the easiest.

 

Said that, the other problem is that in every league, even in poor nation, once you become the best, you will remain the best forever and with very high margin

Agree on these also. And a majority of managerial careers should be failures instead of the certain success stories that the game is at the moment offering us. 

I honestly don't see the point of this game with this kind of difficulty level. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

31 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

With team like AC Milan (or any other) you should not be forced to "sabotage" your own gameplay or invent challenges to yourself. The game should be difficult enough to provide a good challenge, no matter what team you pick. This is a simple thing that the game developers will also hopefully see at some point. 

”The game isn't easy, I only sign youth academy players” 

[Broken_Record]

16 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

”The game isn't easy, I only sign youth academy players” 

"Try doing it with York City, it takes 10k more continue clicks". 

Seriously speaking: are there any clear/good reasons why Football Manager should not be a challenging game for all of us? Losing audience won't do as this is not a children's game. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the main audience of Football Manager are us grown ass men and absolutely 100% of that customer base should be able to accept that:

A) You're not going to win always. 

B) It takes a bit of work and effort to do well. And even then it's not guaranteed. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Broken_Record

[craiigman]

I would prefer it to be on the easy side so it’s more open to new players. Make the learning curve too difficult and you’ll stop getting new players.

I agree with the sentiment that you shouldn’t need to add your own challenges to make the game more difficult. However if the game was realistic no one would play it anymore. There’s a reason why clubs like “generic league one/two club” won’t win the champions league in 5 years. But it being possible and maybe a “bit easy” is that appeals to people playing FM, and it’s what would keep a new player playing.

[Gah Rii]

5 hours ago, harrycarrie said:

Nah its hard enough

 

 

 

 

what tactic did you possibly use to do this?

[dominoes012]

I'm a Barcelona fan so I usually like to play my first save of the year and the last save of the year with updated rosters as my favorite team. I like to play until I win the champions league and have a season where I can go for all 6 trophies at the same time which inevitably ends up happening because it is Barcelona and you are able to buy the players you want to fit your tactics. However this usually takes a a couple of transfer windows minimum especially with the current Barcelona roster and normally in the first year you run into some kind of trouble, mainly Liverpool in the Champions League. However after playing this year's beta I am dismayed at how easy the competition seems to be as with a young roster as I managed to break records in goals scored in La Liga, points obtained in La Liga, wins recorded in La Liga, highest goal scorer in La Liga, highest goal scorer in Champions League. most goals overall in a year and won every single trophy I could excluding the Copa del Rey where I did lose and managed to exit the competition early. 

In general, it's pretty disappointing to hear from developers towards those that want to play as their favorite team even if they are one of the big clubs that it "sucks for you" when you want a bit of a challenge before you inevitably move on to lower league saves or a slightly more challenging save. I do agree that the game indeed might be easier for some than others, however should it not be the case that those who find it harder should find a way to improve whether tactically or by having a better understanding of how the transfer market works etc. Let's face it as the game progresses to having regens and you have a decent understanding of how scouting works or have good scouts, the game gets progressively easier as some of the wonderkids that you can get from regens are absolutely amazing at an extremely cheap price. Shouldn't it be that everyone should have to improve, sometimes from their own failures rather than having just an overall easier game? Don't get me wrong the match engine for FM21 is absolutely amazing as you see things defensively and offensively that haven't been seen before, however there is a combination of overtuning of offense or the undertuning of defense that currently makes the game a bit too easy in my opinion. 

 

https://gyazo.com/6540a3a4bda5389374bf0177d8e5898a

https://gyazo.com/765f5bd8755a88c879df69a65025d649

 

[dannysheard]

29 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

It happened a few times, but normally I don't. In the first season I try to get the squad right and in the second season I really go for it, but realistically I only win it in my 3rd season. Yes, it can be different each time, as AI decisions are something I cannot control and sometimes they do make better decisions which makes it very hard for me to win the league or it can make it very easy. As an example, I am playing AC Milan right now in the beta and I am now finishing my 3rd season. Won the league in my 3rd season by 2 points against Juventus. Inter was 3rd, 2 points behind me. I also got as far as the quarter finals of UCL. For me, this is exactly what I would expect from the game.

To quote you "if you rally try" ... My approach towards each save is the same and that includes sacrificing some results if I have to for the greater good like selling a top earner and promoting a youngster in which I believe, or saacrificing the league for the european competition, etc. I NEVER go just for the result in front of me. That would be my 1st choice if I would play journeyman (which I haven't done in 7 years, since FM14). My approach is always long term. I am not trying to convincee you @dannysheardthat the game doesn't need any tweaking with regards to the difficulty level. I am just saying that for me it's perfectly fine and I feel strongly about this. I guess it depends on how you play it.

Thanks for the answer, and I'm glad that this discussion topic has been pretty friendly this year 😃

From what you're saying, even when you're really trying, you're still doing things that aren't really going all out to win every match.

If you did really try to win, you probably would in the first season, and that's too easy for me.

It might be that lots of players are really happy with the difficulty, but this poll shows lots of us find it way too easy.

Difficulty levels would give something for everyone.

[FlorianAlbert9]

10 minuti fa, craiigman ha scritto:

I would prefer it to be on the easy side so it’s more open to new players. Make the learning curve too difficult and you’ll stop getting new players.

I agree with the sentiment that you shouldn’t need to add your own challenges to make the game more difficult. However if the game was realistic no one would play it anymore. There’s a reason why clubs like “generic league one/two club” won’t win the champions league in 5 years. But it being possible and maybe a “bit easy” is that appeals to people playing FM, and it’s what would keep a new player playing.

And is for that reason that should be a sort of real level of difficulty. 

And, yes, of course, if FM replicate perfectly the real world there werent funny.

But one thing Is to make for user more possible the Mourinho's Porto, another thing Is to make that the normality

[BuryBlade]

I haven’t played a great deal of the BETA yet as I can’t bring myself to invest any real effort before the game is patched upon or after release and I have to start over.

That said, I sunk over 1000 hours into FM20 and I agree with other posters who have said it’s all about self discipline. I played my main save as FC Midtjylland and refused to use gegenpress tactics, despite seeing everywhere how overpowered they were. I only used my own 5-3-2 tactic and tried to play defensive football. It took me until 2035 to finally win the Champions League. Could I have done this earlier? If I’d used a gegenpress tactic then almost certainly but this is a game where you are in control of your game world. The only person affected by what you choose to input into your game world is you. I chose to limit my tactical input options to only my own tactic to make it more difficult for myself. I also felt a greater sense of achievement when I finally won the champions league because I had used my own tactic.

People are free to play how they want. It’s a single player game at the end of the day but I would be against the difficulty being changed or levels of difficulty being added because I believe the user is already in control of how difficult they want to make the game for themselves. Anyone who thinks otherwise just needs to head over to the Youth Academy Only Challenge threads on this forum.

[dannysheard]

14 minutes ago, craiigman said:

I would prefer it to be on the easy side so it’s more open to new players. Make the learning curve too difficult and you’ll stop getting new players.

I agree with the sentiment that you shouldn’t need to add your own challenges to make the game more difficult. However if the game was realistic no one would play it anymore. There’s a reason why clubs like “generic league one/two club” won’t win the champions league in 5 years. But it being possible and maybe a “bit easy” is that appeals to people playing FM, and it’s what would keep a new player playing.

They can do both I think, with difficulty levels.

[dannysheard]

2 minutes ago, BuryBlade said:

I haven’t played a great deal of the BETA yet as I can’t bring myself to invest any real effort before the game is patched upon or after release and I have to start over.

That said, I sunk over 1000 hours into FM20 and I agree with other posters who have said it’s all about self discipline. I played my main save as FC Midtjylland and refused to use gegenpress tactics, despite seeing everywhere how overpowered they were. I only used my own 5-3-2 tactic and tried to play defensive football. It took me until 2035 to finally win the Champions League. Could I have done this earlier? If I’d used a gegenpress tactic then almost certainly but this is a game where you are in control of your game world. The only person affected by what you choose to input into your game world is you. I chose to limit my tactical input options to only my own tactic to make it more difficult for myself. I also felt a greater sense of achievement when I finally won the champions league because I had used my own tactic.

People are free to play how they want. It’s a single player game at the end of the day but I would be against the difficulty being changed or levels of difficulty being added because I believe the user is already in control of how difficult they want to make the game for themselves. Anyone who thinks otherwise just needs to head over to the Youth Academy Only Challenge threads on this forum.

You're basically equating self-discipline to not playing a modern, exciting style of football.

It's like playing a Star Wars game and not using The Force or a lightsaber because it's overpowered.

[dominoes012]

2 minutes ago, BuryBlade said:

I haven’t played a great deal of the BETA yet as I can’t bring myself to invest any real effort before the game is patched upon or after release and I have to start over.

That said, I sunk over 1000 hours into FM20 and I agree with other posters who have said it’s all about self discipline. I played my main save as FC Midtjylland and refused to use gegenpress tactics, despite seeing everywhere how overpowered they were. I only used my own 5-3-2 tactic and tried to play defensive football. It took me until 2035 to finally win the Champions League. Could I have done this earlier? If I’d used a gegenpress tactic then almost certainly but this is a game where you are in control of your game world. The only person affected by what you choose to input into your game world is you. I chose to limit my tactical input options to only my own tactic to make it more difficult for myself. I also felt a greater sense of achievement when I finally won the champions league because I had used my own tactic.

People are free to play how they want. It’s a single player game at the end of the day but I would be against the difficulty being changed or levels of difficulty being added because I believe the user is already in control of how difficult they want to make the game for themselves. Anyone who thinks otherwise just needs to head over to the Youth Academy Only Challenge threads on this forum.

You're kind of making the point though of making the game a bit harder though. Having an easier time playing the game doesn't only apply to those who play with City Liverpool PSG Madrid Barca. It applies to everyone no matter the save as your 1000 hours put into your save will inevitably be shortened because it will be easier to win. I totally get how satisfying it was to win the champions league finally after thousands of hours of playing and that time will be cut down because at the moment it's not only affecting people with high reputation teams but those who play lower league teams as well because they are being promoted faster than previous FMs. I want the exact same thing you do 

[FlorianAlbert9]

2 minuti fa, BuryBlade ha scritto:

I haven’t played a great deal of the BETA yet as I can’t bring myself to invest any real effort before the game is patched upon or after release and I have to start over.

That said, I sunk over 1000 hours into FM20 and I agree with other posters who have said it’s all about self discipline. I played my main save as FC Midtjylland and refused to use gegenpress tactics, despite seeing everywhere how overpowered they were. I only used my own 5-3-2 tactic and tried to play defensive football. It took me until 2035 to finally win the Champions League. Could I have done this earlier? If I’d used a gegenpress tactic then almost certainly but this is a game where you are in control of your game world. The only person affected by what you choose to input into your game world is you. I chose to limit my tactical input options to only my own tactic to make it more difficult for myself. I also felt a greater sense of achievement when I finally won the champions league because I had used my own tactic.

People are free to play how they want. It’s a single player game at the end of the day but I would be against the difficulty being changed or levels of difficulty being added because I believe the user is already in control of how difficult they want to make the game for themselves. Anyone who thinks otherwise just needs to head over to the Youth Academy Only Challenge threads on this forum.

I usually play in Hungary. So a similar level of Midtjylland. 

you are confusing the time you need with the difficulty. 

Of course you need more time to win the CL with such team, but it is not 'cause the AI manager are stronger, but 'cause you need wait to have your League at a reasonal level to attract decent players. 

But i bet that:

You win with a weaker starting 11 than top teams 

And

You starting dominate the nation league after 3/4 years. 

And 

You probabily reach to have a U19 team that Is stronger than other senior team of the nation

And 

Your senior team could be U22 and you would win the same

[Mars_Blackmon]

8 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

They can do both I think, with difficulty levels.

i honesty don't think difficulty levels would be the answer. i personally just want them to fix the exploits lol.

The exploits are what's making the game easy. Whether it's paying a guy installments or match engine AI just sitting back and defending all game and etc...

 

i was for difficulty levels that would increase/decrease fatigue and injuries but it seem like they upgraded in this area overall. It may need fine tuning but it seems to be a step they want to take with the game.

[Mars_Blackmon]

4 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

I usually play in Hungary. So a similar level of Midtjylland. 

you are confusing the time you need with the difficulty. 

Of course you need more time to win the CL with such team, but it is not 'cause the AI manager are stronger, but 'cause you need wait to have your League at a reasonal level to attract decent players. 

But i bet that:

You win with a weaker starting 11 than top teams 

And

You starting dominate the nation league after 3/4 years. 

And 

You probabily reach to have a U19 team that Is stronger than other senior team of the nation

And 

Your senior team could be U22 and you would win the same

I agree. Last year i played with a tier 10 league team and got promoted every year. I eventually got bored of it. I was destined to eventually win the EPL, it would just take me 10 seasons to do so instead of one...

[dannysheard]

3 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

i honesty don't think difficulty levels would be the answer. i personally just want them to fix the exploits lol.

The exploits are what's making the game easy. Whether it's paying a guy installments or match engine AI just sitting back and defending all game and etc...

 

i was for difficulty levels that would increase/decrease fatigue and injuries but it seem like they upgraded in this area overall. It may need fine tuning but it seems to be a step they want to take with the game.

For me as a player, I totally agree about fixing exploits as the best solution.

I think the issue would then be that there are clearly a lot of players who don't find the game easy like we do, and fixing exploits would possibly turn them off as it would have a negative effect on them as well.

Maybe not as much as the good players as we're maybe inadvertently exploiting more things than most, but it would probably have some effect on them.

[BuryBlade]

12 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

You're basically equating self-discipline to not playing a modern, exciting style of football.

It's like playing a Star Wars game and not using The Force or a lightsaber because it's overpowered.

But how many teams in real life actually play the way Liverpool play, and are successful with it? The issue with FM20 was you could plug gegenpressing in with any team and get them to be successful pretty quickly. The lack of stamina drain was a big issue in this regard. But I understand your general point. Maybe I’m confusing difficulty and discipline issues.

5 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

I usually play in Hungary. So a similar level of Midtjylland. 

you are confusing the time you need with the difficulty. 

Of course you need more time to win the CL with such team, but it is not 'cause the AI manager are stronger, but 'cause you need wait to have your League at a reasonal level to attract decent players. 

But i bet that:

You win with a weaker starting 11 than top teams 

And

You starting dominate the nation league after 3/4 years. 

And 

You probabily reach to have a U19 team that Is stronger than other senior team of the nation

And 

Your senior team could be U22 and you would win the same

You’ve explained this quite well. Maybe I’m getting things somewhat confused. I always considered the difficulty to be directly proportional to the time required to achieve a certain goal (eg winning the Champions League - less time for Liverpool, more for Midtjylland) But the way you and others have explained, I can see how you can look at this differently.

[Icy]

The difficulty on managing big clubs should come from the board, press and fans giving you a lot of troubles and demanding a lot from you, and the players bitching all the time and having ego wars between them. That is the difficulty on managing a big team, not choosing who overlaps etc, but I guess that king of game would be more like the sims than what we expect from FM. Yes, SI can make the board, playes and fans much hared on you, but I'm sure the forum will be full of complains about the interactions outside the match.

If you think that Zidane is a great manager because his tactics... he is good at managing the Real Madrid players and he would probably fail with a lower league team. Guardiola is maybe a different kind of manager, much more tactics oriented than man management, but I'd like to see hm at the lower levels trying to use players out of position without them being top stars, or to see Klopp trying to gegenpress with an unfit semi pro team so yes all these managers have an easier time managing the top teams than they would in the lower leagues if we are thinking about wining, then managing pressure and top players is a different story, but again that would be the sims, not what we expect from FM. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Icy

[Broken_Record]

I think I've shared my views quite widely already but just to summarise it in a simple way: in my opinion, when you start a career, there should be a considerably high possibility that you will not be successful or that you will fail. At the moment, for me, there is absolutely zero chance for this to happen if I do not purposely sabotage my own gameplay in many different ways. 

In my opinion the game should no way be like this and this is basically the only clear weakness that FM has. 

BTW: #stopthecounting 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Broken_Record

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, dannysheard said:

This. When did we reach the point where, in a football management simulation, the advice for any half-decent player is that you need to sabotage your own game if you want a realistic save?

 

You don't want a realistic save, you want players fitness and morale artificially altered. What's the difference between SI doing that and you doing it yourself?

[Junkhead]

I'll be quite honest, I've not played much of FM21 yet - only 4 competitive games, in fact. I've won three of them, but as a team expected to come third in the league, I am third in the league. I did mess about another team before starting this save, and they were awful, got beaten soundly across a couple of friendly games, including a 3-0 defeat to my under 19s.

I've also not read every post in this thread, but I did read most of the previous one where people said it was too easy which was closed. The vast majority in there who mentioned who they were playing with were using large clubs. There was even someone who said that they were actually finding the game hard, and someone responded basically telling them what tactic to use.

Not sure picking massive clubs with huge transfer budgets, snatching up wonder kids and telling people who are finding things challenging to use a certain tactic works alongside saying the game is too easy. As a long term player using LLM rules, I generally don't find any of the games in this series easy. The only top leagues I've won in 25 years of playing this game are Haiti and Australia. But then I only sign scout recommendations, don't use player search, don't download tactics or training schedules, and don't go near wonder kid shortlists. I also try and keep my transfer activity realistic by signing 4/5 players per season rather than taking  over a conference north club and signing 30 players before a ball is kicked.  I'm not saying everyone is successful because they do these things - I don't believe that's the case. I'm also not having a go at those that don't play the same way as me, by the way. And I am sure there are some examples in this thread of people doing very well playing with much smaller clubs. What I'm saying is that there is an element of challenge in games like this that need to be user defined. 

That all being said, I appreciate that a longer period of time with the game may lead me to believe it's too easy. I just honestly think that if the game is played as intended and decisions reflect what you might do in a real situation, it will generally offer more challenge. It's always been that way for me and that's how I expect Fm21 to be to be honest.

And for anyone who says that I must be poor at the game because I haven't got a heaving trophy cabinet, you are no doubt correct - but at least I'm having fun 😁

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Junkhead
Spelling

[harrycarrie]

39 minutes ago, Gah Rii said:

 

what tactic did you possibly use to do this?

4123Sirjur - its my own and you can find it on FMBase.

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

 in my opinion, when you start a career, there should be a considerably high possibility that you will not be successful or that you will fail.

Sounds like every save I start. 

[emil_sbn]

Am I the only one with players needing a rest after almost every single game playing the gegenpress tactic. Dont get me wrong it seems kind of op but fitness wise SI have replicated it much better this year! 

[forameuss]

2 hours ago, dannysheard said:

This is a 3-second thought on this, but would immediately make the game a whole load more enjoyable for the better players... In games just against me, so it doesn't throw the rest of the game out, the AI teams gets, for example:

 +5 or +10 on fitness at the start of the match

 Boost to morale

Boost of +1 or +2 on all their attributes

And that sort of stuff might fly for EA trying to make Squad Battles more unfair, but doesn't really work for a game that can at least attempt to call itself a simulation with a straight face.

[dominoes012]

11 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

You don't want a realistic save, you want players fitness and morale artificially altered. What's the difference between SI doing that and you doing it yourself?

That really seemed like a suggestion or an idea of perhaps how to make games a bit more difficult. I don't think anyone here who thinks the game is a bit easy exactly knows the fix or even if people agree with them hence the thread. It seems most people who do agree that the game is a bit easier this year have just seen a difference between previous FMs and FM21 

[KlaaZ]

What this game needs is an ironman mode, curious how everyone complaining would perform if there's no possibility to reload. 

[waldywaldy]

8 minutes ago, KlaaZ said:

What this game needs is an ironman mode, curious how everyone complaining would perform if there's no possibility to reload. 

 

An Ironman mode is not stopping anybody from savescumming

[dannysheard]

11 minutes ago, KlaaZ said:

What this game needs is an ironman mode, curious how everyone complaining would perform if there's no possibility to reload. 

This is one of the main reasons these discussions don't go anywhere, because the not-so-good players say the better ones must be cheating.

Why would we ask for the game to be harder if we just want to win?

Think more.

Edited November 17, 2020 by dannysheard

[KlaaZ]

1 minute ago, dannysheard said:

This is one of the main reasons these discussions don't go anywhere, because the not-so-good players say the better ones must be cheating.

Why would we ask for the game to be harder if we just want to win?

Think more.

I'm doing plenty fine, thanks. 

I just find some people's results fairly conspicuous, that's all. I'm not saying they are reloading games, but an ironman mode would rule that out. Although you can even work around that in paradox games by creating a physical copy of your save game somewhere else and ALT-F4'ing. 

[Nahuelzn]

Yes. The game needs to be harder. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be winning the CL with an icelandic team. Every game should have an end point. But it has to come with a sense of achievement.

And after playing some more matches, FM21 seems easier than FM20, but I don't think it's actually ME related. It's about how the AI opponent plays against you. Make the AI managers a little more aggressive, make it a little more difficult to play with young players and you have a great game with a decent level of difficulty. As long as I have the in game editor I can make the other teams to remain competitive. I know the game itself should do it, but having the AI to manage 5000 teams at the same time it's an atrocious task and a difficult one to balance.

[craiigman]

46 minutes ago, harrycarrie said:

4123Sirjur - its my own and you can find it on FMBase.

Have just had a look and downloaded to try - but on face value it's not a realistic tactic, it looks like has been made to exploit the ME and results suggest it does just that. @Rashidion his stream came to conclusion 3 ST systems are OP, so think will be adjusted for full release.

[dannysheard]

6 minutes ago, KlaaZ said:

I'm doing plenty fine, thanks. 

I just find some people's results fairly conspicuous, that's all. I'm not saying they are reloading games, but an ironman mode would rule that out. Although you can even work around that in paradox games by creating a physical copy of your save game somewhere else and ALT-F4'ing. 

Would you say you overachieve? What are your results like compared to real life?

[Dagenham_Dave]

The irony of all this talk about making it more difficult is if that happened, you'd get just as many people, if not more complaining the game is broken or rigged against them. 

[Lempicka]

2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The irony of all this talk about making it more difficult is if that happened, you'd get just as many people, if not more complaining the game is broken or rigged against them. 

... and people complaining that the game is supposed to be fun.

I think most casual players want to play the game and be successful. If they're losing all the time, they'll bin off the save and start a new one.

[KlaaZ]

1 minute ago, dannysheard said:

Would you say you overachieve? What are your results like compared to real life?

I overachieve slightly. Finished two seasons with FC Kobenhavn, won the league twice, the cup once (lost the other cup final on penalties iirc). Went unbeaten in the league in the second season. 

Finished third in a very heavy Euro Cup group with Real Sociedad and Leicester in my first season, almost managed to go through to the knockout stage of the CL in the second after leading with 9 points from four games in a group with Real Madrid, Juve and Hoffenheim, but managed to blow it by losing the final two games. Went on to the Euro Cup knockout where I wipped Besiktas on a 5-0 aggregate and then almost finished Sevilla. Lost 1-2 at home, went 0-2 ahead in Spain but threw it away in the 88 and 93d minute.

Currently in my third season in another hellish group with RB Leipzig, FC Porto and AS Monaco. I actually could have had 7 points from three games but, if it wasn't obvious yet, I can't hang on to a lead against the bigger teams. Blew a 1-0 lead against Porto to draw and a 1-0 and 2-1 lead against Leipzig. And I threw away a draw in Monaco with a French winner in the 86th minute. 

[dannysheard]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The irony of all this talk about making it more difficult is if that happened, you'd get just as many people, if not more complaining the game is broken or rigged against them. 

I agree with this entirely.

There are clearly a lot of different levels of ability on this game (as there are every game and every part of life) and that's why I'd say difficulty levels are the only way to go.

Going back to your realism question earlier, I fully accept that no solution is perfect - overachieving every season is boring and artificially boosting the opposition when they play me is not ideal either.

For me, I know in the game I can get Liverpool to a 9 out of 10 level (players, fitness, morale) very easily but the AI version of Pep, for example, can only get City, even with all the extra money, to an 8 out of 10. I'm happy for the difficult mode to artificially bridge that known, and universally accepted, AI shortfall by boosting their stats when they play me. That's not perfect, but it would make the game a whole lot more realistically challenging for decent players at decent teams.

 

[StatboySpurs]

In my first season as Rangers, I'm at about +85 in goal differential with about 10 matches to go.  I beat Celtic 6-1 ON THE ROAD, and I beat them 4-0 in the League Cup Final.  I doubt I'm a tactical genius either.  And I disabled the first window transfer activity, and in fact didn't make any moves in January, either.  My only loss all season was to Wolfsburg 1-0 in Europa League qualifiers.  It looks like I'll probably go unbeaten in the league in my first year.

So yeah, I'd say it's a bit too easy.  But I've only played with Rangers, so maybe I'm off base.

[Gah Rii]

7 minutes ago, StatboySpurs said:

In my first season as Rangers, I'm at about +85 in goal differential with about 10 matches to go.  I beat Celtic 6-1 ON THE ROAD, and I beat them 4-0 in the League Cup Final.  I doubt I'm a tactical genius either.  And I disabled the first window transfer activity, and in fact didn't make any moves in January, either.  My only loss all season was to Wolfsburg 1-0 in Europa League qualifiers.  It looks like I'll probably go unbeaten in the league in my first year.

So yeah, I'd say it's a bit too easy.  But I've only played with Rangers, so maybe I'm off base.

what kind of tactic? gegen-press high line?

[swippy]

Maybe this is all the consequence of high press tactics being vastly overpowered and easily implementable with any kind of players. You can pick the worst team in the lowest division of a country and just click "Higher LOE", "Higher Line of Defense" and "More Urgent pressing". And you will overachieve massively.

[harrycarrie]

43 minutes ago, craiigman said:

Have just had a look and downloaded to try - but on face value it's not a realistic tactic, it looks like has been made to exploit the ME and results suggest it does just that. @Rashidion his stream came to conclusion 3 ST systems are OP, so think will be adjusted for full release.

I wouldn't say its designed to exploit mate