Does FM need a Match Engine?

[pcws1979]

I have been playing SI developed Football Management games for 27 years (yes since CM2), I never wanted or expected a comprehensive match engine for the game, other aspects of the game interested me more, the day to day running of the club, building squads, tactics etc, when the Match engine was introduced, I saw it as a gimmick, to add to the match day experience, all it needed to do was show match highlights, incidents, in no way do you need to watch the whole match, a FM season takes long enough to complete anyway. Unfortunately with every new FM release a improved match engine becomes a more important  part of the new features of the game, meaning that it gets more attention from the community, as it is generally not as impressive as the rest of the game and for some reason every new edition of the game starts with the same match engine bugs, as the previous edition started with, not developed on from the latest update of the previous edition (this has always puzzled me),  people end up reporting the same bugs after every new release. I for one would be happy if SI decided that the ME was only for highlights and match incidents and concentrated on making other areas of the game more in depth, i.e day to running of the club, player interactions (which up to the announced changes for FM21 had the same issue for around 4 editions), staff interactions lots of things can be added or fleshed out, the ME needs to be a side aspect of the game, not a main feature.

 

[bielsadidnothingwrong]

yeah, it does.

[ChelseaFan]

Watching the game, and seeing your tactics play out is the best part of the game...

P.S It's also the most frustrating.

[pcws1979]

@bielsadidnothingwrongDoesn't have to be the main aspect of the game though.

 

 

[FrazT]

1 hour ago, pcws1979 said:

I have been playing SI developed Football Management games for 27 years (yes since CM2), I never wanted or expected a comprehensive match engine for the game, other aspects of the game interested me more, the day to day running of the club, building squads, tactics etc, when the Match engine was introduced, I saw it as a gimmick, to add to the match day experience, all it needed to do was show match highlights, incidents, in no way do you need to watch the whole match, a FM season takes long enough to complete anyway. Unfortunately with every new FM release a improved match engine becomes a more important  part of the new features of the game, meaning that it gets more attention from the community, as it is generally not as impressive as the rest of the game and for some reason every new edition of the game starts with the same match engine bugs, as the previous edition started with, not developed on from the latest update of the previous edition (this has always puzzled me),  people end up reporting the same bugs after every new release. I for one would be happy if SI decided that the ME was only for highlights and match incidents and concentrated on making other areas of the game more in depth, i.e day to running of the club, player interactions (which up to the announced changes for FM21 had the same issue for around 4 editions), staff interactions lots of things can be added or fleshed out, the ME needs to be a side aspect of the game, not a main feature.

 

An interesting point that I had not considered at all.  It would certainly cut down on the level of frustration for sure, but I suspect that it has gone so far that it couldn't really be allowed to regress at this point

[pcws1979]

@ChelseaFan My issue is that every new edition of FM has the same ME bugs as the previous edition began with, i.e FM21 ME will begin with more bugs then FM21 ME finished with. if they cannot improve on every update then turn your attention to something else.

[pcws1979]

4 minutes ago, FrazT said:

An interesting point that I had not considered at all.  It would certainly cut down on the level of frustration for sure, but I suspect that it has gone so far that it couldn't really be allowed to regress at this point

Yeah, I guess if the ME aspect of the game was reduced the same people who moan about it would complain about it's reduced influence.

[Tony Wright 747]

42 minutes ago, pcws1979 said:

Yeah, I guess if the ME aspect of the game was reduced the same people who moan about it would complain about it's reduced influence.

Absolutely

[Lord Rowell]

@pcws1979Intersting posts and point, though as has already been said, it would be a massive u-turn.

I think ultimately, what you probably want is a game that isn't FM, there are others out there that might fit what you're looking for - can't personally comment on quality though as FM is the only footy sim I play.

[TokyoWanderer]

Unless I'm understanding what OP is saying incorrectly, this may be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read here. The whole point of everything you do off the field is to win football matches. If you don't have a match engine, how exactly are you deciding the result of matches? A probability-based result generator based on squad quality? Ridiculous. The match engine will always be the most important thing about the game because everything you do off the field is to achieve results on the pitch. If you get bored by the matches you can already watch only the highlights.

Also @pcws1979, you talk about the development of the ME as if you had a clue about what is going on behind the scenes, but you clearly don't.

[steam just is]

All the aspects of running a club are designed to culminate in that 90 min experience. I’ve played CM/ FM since the 90s. Even when it was just text it’s the match which gave the adrenaline (and your imagination was allowed to run riot). I remember being delighted that SI had the creative brilliance to make the match come to life. It’s a game about football so show us the football.

I can’t imagine a real life football manager saying the match is the least interesting part of management. It’s when they all come to life.

obviously it’s all about opinions and each has their merits but I really don’t understand someone playing a football game not caring about the match.

[FlorianAlbert9]

I'm sure the OP is a sarcastic way to tell US what SI really care about.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, pcws1979 said:

My issue is that every new edition of FM has the same ME bugs as the previous edition began with

Or rather, people tend to make the same kind of tactical mistakes all the time, and then blame their tactical failures on the ME, simply because it's more convenient than admitting one's own lack of tactical knowledge and/or taking time and patience to learn how tactics work. I am not saying it's easy to master tactical creation (both in FM and real-life football). It definitely is not. But we all were beginners at some point. So if you really want to learn and become good at something, you'll do it sooner or later. Allegations of ME bugs - even though some of those bugs do exist - are for the most part just an implausible excuse IMHO. I've never ever even thought about blaming the ME when I had tactical problems, and every time it really turned out to be my mistake/misconception and nothing else. 

P.S: I am under no illusion that people who have been complaining about the ME will stop doing that just because of what I wrote above, just sharing my own experience in the hope that different opinions are a welcome part of any discussion 

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 hours ago, pcws1979 said:

when the Match engine was introduced,

 

There has been a match engine in every CM/FM game ever released, starting with the very first one. How else do you think the results are calculated?

Are you mixing this up with the graphics engine? 

[goranm]

56 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Or rather, people tend to make the same kind of tactical mistakes all the time, and then blame their tactical failures on the ME, simply because it's more convenient than admitting one's own lack of tactical knowledge and/or taking time and patience to learn how tactics work. I am not saying it's easy to master tactical creation (both in FM and real-life football). It definitely is not. But we all were beginners at some point. So if you really want to learn and become good at something, you'll do it sooner or later. Allegations of ME bugs - even though some of those bugs do exist - are for the most part just an implausible excuse IMHO. I've never ever even thought about blaming the ME when I had tactical problems, and every time it really turned out to be my mistake/misconception and nothing else. 

P.S: I am under no illusion that people who have been complaining about the ME will stop doing that just because of what I wrote above, just sharing my own experience in the hope that different opinions are a welcome part of any discussion 

I don't understand your reply at all. How is this a "rather" to what you've quoted? What OP is saying is fact, not an excuse: FM20 ME at its launch had some of the same bugs that FM19 had at its launch and at its final version. The next iteration of FM does not fix all bugs of the previous, nor is it reasonable to expected such a thing. Allegations of ME bugs? No, these are well documented in the bugs forums, that's why we have a bugs forum specifically for the ME. How can such a dismissive reply come from someone with a SI badge?

Edited October 26, 2020 by goranm

[DementedHammer]

I understand where the OP is coming from (I think). I grew up in a world where there were dozens of football manager games available. In those times, probably mostly down to the technological limitations at the time, the match experience was no more important than any other part of the game, and you could fly through seasons at a million miles an hour. I still go back and play some of those games if I have a spare hour or two and I want to play though a couple of seasons and let my imagination run wild, filling in the blanks about how the games were won or lost. 

However, I think that way too much water has passed under the bridge for FM to go back to that model now. Personally, FM as it is today, is the game that I wish I had back in the late 80s and early 90s. I used to play The Double back then because it involved players with multiple attributes and having to scout players to determine their attributes. But, there was only one formation and no tactics whatsoever. 

When I discovered CM I was absolutely blown away by how detailed the game was, and I was drawn to the game by the level of detail and the micromanagement. It was about this time that I began to realise that many many different things combine to make a successful team, and the CM franchise was the only franchise that came close to replicating that. 

I remember being ecstatic when the 2D match engine was first introduced, as it let me see how my tactics were actually played out and it gave me a whole new area to focus on, rather than just buying the best players and watching the results come in. 

I fell in love with Fm06 and I played it for years, right up until finally switching to FM18. As much as I loved Fm06, and it will forever have a special place in my heart, it was very difficult to replicate many styles of football, and some modern formations just didn't really work. 

I was blown away by the improvements in FM18 - I found the new roles and positions extremely easy to pick up and I was immediately able to reproduce different styles of football to get the best out of my players. From this point onwards, I started watching full matches, and now I couldn't play FM on any other detail level. 

These days, I pretty much play as the manager. When I take over a team, I give the existing players at least half a season to prove themselves before looking to replace them and I try to find a system that gets the best out of the existing players. I rely on the scouts to find and suggest players to me. (although if a player plays well against me, I'll ask the scouts to take a look at them.) I'll make decisions based on feedback from my coaches and medical teams around the selection of players, but it is during the matches where I have to prove my worth. 

I love watching the complete matches, analysing the turnovers and trying to spot things that I can do to try and turn the game in our favour. Where do we have numerical advantages? Why isn't my playmaker getting involved? What can I do to address it? 

If FM went away from the current levels of realism and details in the match engine, it would be a very sad day for me. As much as the match engine isn't perfect, if someone else started from scratch making one, it would be many many years before it could be on par with the current FM match engine. 

To me, FMs competetive advantage is their player scouting, their match engine and the level of micromanagement that a manager is able to do. The latter is the easiest for a competitor to reproduce. The match engine and the level of the scouting network is what makes FM truly unique and special. 

Sorry about what turned into a super lengthy post. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by DementedHammer

[Experienced Defender]

28 minutes ago, goranm said:

I don't understand your reply at all. How is this a "rather" to what you've quoted? What OP is saying is fact, not an excuse: FM20 ME at its launch had some of the same bugs that FM19 had at its launch and at its final version. The next iteration of FM does not fix all bugs of the previous, nor is it reasonable to expected such a thing. Allegations of ME bugs? No, these are well documented in the bugs forums, that's why we have a bugs forum specifically for the ME. How can such a dismissive reply come from someone with a SI badge?

Because I play the same game with the same ME as you and all other FM players, and no ME - or a ME bug, whether actual or just perceived - has ever prevented me from creating tactics that work. And I have never used any plug'n'play/exploit tactics that break the ME, so I can say with confidence that most ME "bugs" that have been complained about are in fact not bugs. Those that are bugs are dealt with in the ME bugs forum by relevant SI staff. 

Plus, whenever someone claimed in the tactical forum that the ME was to blame for their team's poor performance and/or results, I would ask them to post a screenshot of their tactic. I can't remember a single one of those tactics that was designed in a sensible and balanced way (they all contained either some sort of tactical overkill or contradiction or even both). 

But of course, I am fully aware that I won't change anyone's opinion and perception, including yours, so there is no point in arguing further (as far as I am concerned) 

[Shenmue-X]

I don't think it's true.

Most of the match engine improvements year after year are rather cosmetic, tending to prove that match engine is not the SI's priority. I don't think more than 3 developers are actually working on the match engine.

[goranm]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because I play the same game with the same ME as you and all other FM players, and no ME - or a ME bug, whether actual or just perceived - has ever prevented me from creating tactics that work. And I have never used any plug'n'play/exploit tactics that break the ME, so I can say with confidence that most ME "bugs" that have been complained about are in fact not bugs. Those that are bugs are dealt with in the ME bugs forum by relevant SI staff. 

Plus, whenever someone claimed in the tactical forum that the ME was to blame for their team's poor performance and/or results, I would ask them to post a screenshot of their tactic. I can't remember a single one of those tactics that was designed in a sensible and balanced way (they all contained either some sort of tactical overkill or contradiction or even both). 

But of course, I am fully aware that I won't change anyone's opinion and perception, including yours, so there is no point in arguing further (as far as I am concerned) 

What the OP is saying doesn't have anything to do with creating tactics that work. It's about the depth of the game outside the ME. You're dismissing what they're saying by framing it as complaining, when they're not, and not knowing how to play the game, when you have no idea how good they are at the game, all under an SI badge. The ME has bugs, it has some bugs that get fixed and it has bugs that have been around for a while and continue to pop up. No matter how well you know the game, that isn't going to change e.g. the inability of strikers to convert clear cut chances. This is the most obvious bug that has been reappearing for the past couple of years, but not the only one.

Edited October 26, 2020 by goranm

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 1 hora, Shenmue-X dijo:

I don't think it's true.

Most of the match engine improvements year after year are rather cosmetic, tending to prove that match engine is not the SI's priority. I don't think more than 3 developers are actually working on the match engine.

You are wrong, the ME team is bigger than 3 people. And they usually try to introduce new things to the ME every year, which is what breaks everything and makes it difficult to get linear improvements.

[ferrarinseb]

Does FM need a new ME it does.

The ME either getting too complex to manage to get best out of it with out having issues else where or it was getting close to its limit in terms of Features it can add / build / Develop. A New ME might be required not right away but soon. 

[Amarante]

1 hour ago, ferrarinseb said:

Does FM need a new ME it does.

The ME either getting too complex to manage to get best out of it with out having issues else where or it was getting close to its limit in terms of Features it can add / build / Develop. A New ME might be required not right away but soon. 

Yes but a building a new one is gonna take time and no doubt SI could already be working on one. 

[ferrarinseb]

14 minutes ago, Amarante said:

Yes but a building a new one is gonna take time and no doubt SI could already be working on one. 

It does take time. But as i said not right now but soon they need a New ME. The current one might not have enough in tank in the future. Its also delicate balance though as changing a New ME might / will result issues so fixing them and bringing as much good as it was as old (Current) one will be the tricky job. We often think the ME is bad but to bring a new one from scratch to current level is tough task. But i trust SI make the right decision if and when they decide to go for new ME. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

6 hours ago, Shenmue-X said:

 I don't think more than 3 developers are actually working on the match engine.

And what do you base this startling level of insight on? 

[Wavelberry]

Couple of interesting points here especially @Experienced Defender's about most issues being to do with mistakes and misconceptions, however, I would argue that SI really don't help themselves here with a fair few different aspects of tactical creation actively encouraging misconceptions due to the way they're worded etc. Also, while a lot of real life football knowledge can easily be translated into successful and easy tactics some of the things you have to do sometimes appear, on the surface, counterintuitive. It's an age old FM problem.

[Wavelberry]

8 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And what do you base this startling level of insight on? 

Social distancing rulez innit 

[Shenmue-X]

2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And what do you base this startling level of insight on? 

Developers generally prefer small teams for sensitive coding (racing game engine, sport game), I believe to keep tracking of what they're doing exactly and fast debugging after issue spotting.

Since SI staff is big but not enormous considering how complex FM is, and the few number of significant evolution each year (it's more tweaking than innovation), I don't think the physic team is wide. It's possible that the team is split to work on a future new engine though.

[themadsheep2001]

The last time I checked, and this was over a year ago, that ME team was at least 8 people, and that's not counting it's support or QA

[Tony Wright 747]

10 minutes ago, Shenmue-X said:

Developers generally prefer small teams for sensitive coding (racing game engine, sport game), I believe to keep tracking of what they're doing exactly and fast debugging after issue spotting.

Since SI staff is big but not enormous considering how complex FM is, and the few number of significant evolution each year (it's more tweaking than innovation), I don't think the physic team is wide. It's possible that the team is split to work on a future new engine though.

You appear to have a remarkable insight into the workings at SI

[forameuss]

I'm never one that considers the ME to be near the top of any of my own personal desired feature lists, but the answer to the original question is a resounding yes.  The alternative is just some simplistic tombola of generating results, and in that case, who cares how good the rest of the game is if it's all feeding into a terrible version of Top Trumps?

1 hour ago, Shenmue-X said:

Developers generally prefer small teams for sensitive coding (racing game engine, sport game), I believe to keep tracking of what they're doing exactly and fast debugging after issue spotting.

Since SI staff is big but not enormous considering how complex FM is, and the few number of significant evolution each year (it's more tweaking than innovation), I don't think the physic team is wide. It's possible that the team is split to work on a future new engine though.

Whole load of assumptions here, layered around small kernels of...well, something approaching fact.  Everything has its pros and cons.  Smaller teams are great for some things, problematic in others.  You could leave all the ME coding to a handful of people, and that's great from a collision perspective, but not so great when, say, an entire team comes down with something and can't work.  Siloed knowledge is rarely good.

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, goranm said:

What the OP is saying doesn't have anything to do with creating tactics that work. It's about the depth of the game outside the ME

While the OP really did not mention tactics that work, he/she did mention the ME and asked for it to be a "side aspect" of the game (rather than a main feature): 

 

17 hours ago, pcws1979 said:

I for one would be happy if SI decided that the ME was only for highlights and match incidents and concentrated on making other areas of the game more in depth, i.e day to running of the club, player interactions (which up to the announced changes for FM21 had the same issue for around 4 editions), staff interactions lots of things can be added or fleshed out, the ME needs to be a side aspect of the game, not a main feature

Which is exactly what prompted my reaction, because FM would make no sense at all and would no longer be what it has always been about if the ME was no longer its key feature. 

 

10 hours ago, goranm said:

You're dismissing what they're saying by framing it as complaining, when they're not

 

Sorry, but the OP did mention the alleged ME "bugs" as a source of complaint: 

17 hours ago, pcws1979 said:

Unfortunately with every new FM release a improved match engine becomes a more important  part of the new features of the game, meaning that it gets more attention from the community, as it is generally not as impressive as the rest of the game and for some reason every new edition of the game starts with the same match engine bugs, as the previous edition started with, not developed on from the latest update of the previous edition (this has always puzzled me),  people end up reporting the same bugs after every new release

So next time please read other people's posts with more attention. 

 

10 hours ago, goranm said:

No matter how well you know the game, that isn't going to change e.g. the inability of strikers to convert clear cut chances. This is the most obvious bug that has been reappearing for the past couple of years, but not the only one

If something happens only to some people (FM players), whereas others do not have any issues with that, then it obviously is not a bug. Because if something is a bug, then it logically must affect everyone playing the game.

Unless we actually play entirely different games that only share a name (this was an irony, of course). 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

however, I would argue that SI really don't help themselves here with a fair few different aspects of tactical creation actively encouraging misconceptions due to the way they're worded

This is something I can strongly agree on 

[phnompenhandy]

OP - options. You can always holiday through the matches or use an 'instant result' add-on, and concentrate on the stuff you enjoy.

[Keyzer Soze]

Not trying to simplify too much the work that football managers have, to me there are 3 main areas: transfer market (and everything that is related with it), training and match day experience (in here i'll place all the stuff related with tactics and match preparation).

If FM wants to be a proper football manager game must nail all these 3 areas, and imho at the moment the one that it's more advanced and perhaps closer to "reality" is the transfer market.

Training is something that really puzzles me how neglated is in this game: you set up some training programs in the beggining of the save... and that's it. When you have such a huge part of the game, or at least it should be a huge part, that you can get taken care in the beggining of the save and never think about it unless when you buy a new player, then something is really missing there.

Finally the match day experience, and in here a place the ME and the AI: it's still pretty basic. Almost all saves that i start in FM goes the same way: first 2 or 3 season presents some dificulties (more or less depending on the team i choose) and from the fourth season on, it's gets really easy. We, human managers, get almost all the good players, the AI managers make really strange buys and sells, and theres no really need to adapt the tactic because ypu easily win almost all games.

So, regarding the topic, to me FM needs a new ME. If it's one completly new, or an upgrade from the one that exist, i dont know, but it's cleary a area of the game (like training) that is still miles away from a "real life" simulation.

In any case, and looking how the game developed since the early days of CM93/94.... it's great to see how the game grow.

 

[Marko1989]

Of course it does. 

When they introduced 2D ME I was so excited. I could finaly see my fast striker outpacing defenders, I could see Recoba scoring long shot goals, I could see my target man winning aerial duels. Then attributes really started to matter and you could see a representation of that. 

Until, these new match engines. And then boom - Header goals from tiny wingers, constant long shot goals from players with 5 for long shots, 30 goals per season with central defender as a striker and so on. 

Match engine made me love this game and then match engine made me hate this game. Of course FM needs ME. I just hope SI will finaly make a good one after 3 absolutely terible versions. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Marko1989

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If something happens only to some people (FM players), whereas others do not have any issues with that, then it obviously is not a bug. Because if something is a bug, then it logically must affect everyone playing the game.

 

I've banged this drum for many years. Still people will deny it.

[forameuss]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If something happens only to some people (FM players), whereas others do not have any issues with that, then it obviously is not a bug. Because if something is a bug, then it logically must affect everyone playing the game.

I'm not sure that's entirely true, exactly the way it's been put.  With the complexity of the game, it's very possible that two users can completely disagree on bugs.  One's style of using the game can mean they encounter a "bug" many times over, while the other never sees it.  The latter doesn't mean the former doesn't exist.

Of course the waters are muddied by people screaming bug when it's user error, just like when people deny the existence of clear bugs just because they haven't seen it.  It's nowhere near as simplistic as saying that if someone doesn't have any issues with something, then it can't be a bug.  That's not how development is going to work, outside of very narrow circumstances that won't apply in the majority of cases.

[CalumF]

The match engine isn't perfect. But you have so many options available to you, on how you want to play the game. Either playing the full 90 minutes, or just old school 2D. I would like to see more controversy in the game. More off the field issues that are happening every other week. Like Foden and Greenwood getting into trouble. Having a player like Ozil in your squad and having to deal with that. VAR issues that will drive you mad. Clear penalties not given.  Red cards. Your player losing their cool at the end of a game and having to manage the situation at full time and in the press the following day. More. 

[ajt]

I have come to the conclusion that part of the problem is the minimum system requirements.

For fm21 you need an Intel Core 2 processor. Now last year I had a 2500k (rip baby) and it still ran FM fine. That processor was bought in 2011 and was probably released in 2009 or 2010.

For other games it doesn't matter so much as you are usually bottlenecked by your GPU for FPS, but in FM I think it's the complete opposite.

Until we get to the stage where 6/8 core 3ghz is the minimum (which at this pace could be 2030) I don't see how we can get vast improvements in me, AI, etc. I haven't mentioned graphics as I still play in 2D mode.

I do think that FM30 will be a seriously great game though!

[goranm]

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If something happens only to some people (FM players), whereas others do not have any issues with that, then it obviously is not a bug. Because if something is a bug, then it logically must affect everyone playing the game.

Unless we actually play entirely different games that only share a name (this was an irony, of course). 

The low conversion rate of strikers converting CCC's and otherwise close range shots literally has the tag known issue in the bugs forum, hence a bug recognised by SI devs. I find it very bizarre that any mod, let alone a mod for the tactics forum, would deny this. It's one of the most reported bugs in the forum as well.

Quote

Which is exactly what prompted my reaction, because FM would make no sense at all and would no longer be what it has always been about if the ME was no longer its key feature. 

It would not make sense to you, but it's not non-sense. Plenty of players are playing the game in the way that OP is describing, i.e. they only view the key highlights of a match. The OP is essentially saying to not prioritize the ME over other aspects of the game. And they have a point, some of the aspects of the game are in my opinion of higher priority than tweaking the ME and in dire need of improvement, for example AI transfers and in general AI squad building. AI matchday selection as well, so that we don't see Salah or Messi playing in their preferred position but in a role that doesn't play to their strengths, and end the season with 7 goals. Yet you pigenholed OP as a whiner over tactical issues when tactics are not mentioned at all.

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Sorry, but the OP did mention the alleged ME "bugs" as a source of complaint:

No, they're not mentioning alleged bugs. They aren't actually mentioning any specific bugs, just bugs in the ME in general that pop up with every new iteration, which do exist. If you want to say that the ME has no such bugs, you're denying reality just so you can frame OP for whining. This is pretty much verifiable with experiment: wait for FM21 release and pay attention to the reported bugs on release. Some of them will be the bugs of FM20 or FM19 that reappear because something was tweaked that causes them to reappear.

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

So next time please read other people's posts with more attention. 

I suggest the same to you. Also, please browse the ME AI & Tactics bugs forum for a bit, maybe sort by most viewed or most replies to get an idea of the bugs that are present in the ME, so that in the future you don't claim that known issues aren't issues at all.

Edited October 26, 2020 by goranm

[Experienced Defender]

23 minutes ago, goranm said:

The low conversion rate of strikers converting CCC's and otherwise close range shots literally has the tag known issue in the bugs forum, hence a bug recognised by SI devs. I find it very bizarre that any mod, let alone a mod for the tactics forum, would deny this. It's one of the most reported bugs in the forum as well.

No, they're not mentioning alleged bugs. They aren't actually mentioning any specific bugs, just bugs in the ME in general that pop up with every new iteration, which do exist. If you want to say that the ME has no such bugs, you're denying reality just so you can frame OP for whining. This is pretty much verifiable with experiment: wait for FM21 release and pay attention to the reported bugs on release. Some of them will be the bugs of FM20 or FM19 that reappear because something was tweaked that causes them to reappear.

I suggest the same to you. Also, please browse the ME AI & Tactics bugs forum for a bit, maybe sort by most viewed or most replies to get an idea of the bugs that are present in the ME, so that in the future you don't claim that known issues aren't issues at all.

Okay, I give up. You are right. The ME is full of bugs and the game is horrible and completely unplayable 

[HUNT3R]

Keep in mind, the ME is not the visuals. The ME is a giant (2-3 million lines of code) calculator. That's doing it a disservice by reducing it to something so simple, because it isn't, but that's an easy way to visualise it. Then there's the graphics engine that processes all the graphics. Then there's the lighting, physics, animations, graphics etc

-------------------------

3 hours ago, forameuss said:

I'm not sure that's entirely true, exactly the way it's been put.  With the complexity of the game, it's very possible that two users can completely disagree on bugs.  One's style of using the game can mean they encounter a "bug" many times over, while the other never sees it.  The latter doesn't mean the former doesn't exist.

 

I agree with this and some of @goranm's points.

There are issues in the FM20 ME. There are in every ME. It will never be perfect, which is good and bad. A perfect ME would be great, but we don't have that. It does mean that SI won't ever stop improving it.  

 

So, as I mentioned, there are issues in the FM20 ME. Not everyone experiences the same amount of issues or to the same frequency. As @forameuss said, they still exist. It doesn't necessarily mean we're helpless, as I think @Experienced Defender was trying to say. Apologies if I misunderstood.

 

Are there issues with finishing? Definitely. Does that mean we're helpless? Definitely not. There are too many 1 v 1s generated. The conversion rates aren't good enough. Result is that we can still get realistic numbers. My best striker scores 1 in 4 or 5 shots. That's good and in line with real life. He scores ±1 goal / match, roughly. That's great. My team scores 3+ per match. That's great. I am creating from everywhere - wide, middle, deep, open play, set pieces, etc. My conversion rate is usually between 11% and 15%. IIRC, that's pretty accurate too. This is across multiple seasons.

Are there issues with defensive teams keeping possession in their half too easily? Yes. Can we do something about it though? Yes. In my case, I have the 3rd highest possession average (and I don't really focus on possession) at 56%. It's rare that I don't have the most possession against a defensive team. I saw the issues that I had against a defensive team and as the manager, I did something about that. Should we be expected to? I can't answer that. What I do is see an issue in a match and I attempt to fix it as logically as possible with the tools I have.

I am able to get my front players all scoring and assisting. I am able to win most of the matches against weaker teams. etc. Does that mean there aren't issues? Don't be silly. Of course there are still issues. As with most arguments where two parties or on either extreme end, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. 

There are issues. SI is aware of them. Let us hope FM21 sorts out all (or the majority) of them, but keep in mind, it still won't (ever) be perfect.

 

 

[goranm]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

 Okay, I give up. You are right. The ME is full of bugs and the game is horrible and completely unplayable 

Clearly you have not understood anything I wrote because this is not what I'm saying at all. 

Edit: I find it a bit troubling that a mod or an admin edited my post and removed the two sentences in which I criticize a moderators dismissive tone and SI's standards for appointing mods, without notifying me that they've edited it. As far as I know, I was not breaking any rules, and as far as I know, mods are not beyond criticism.

Edited October 26, 2020 by goranm

[JordanMilly]

@goranm- If you've got an issue with a moderator decision (I wasn't the one to remove that part of your post, fyi), what you should do is use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the forum to speak to the forum admins who work at SI, rather than post issues on the forum.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

4 hours ago, goranm said:

Also, please browse the ME AI & Tactics bugs forum for a bit

I like this line, because you're replying to someone who's written like 25% of the guides over there. :P

 

21 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

and no ME - or a ME bug, whether actual or just perceived - has ever prevented me from creating tactics that work.

Actually, in my experience it has helped me win more and then as a result, suffer badly because to me, I found something that worked.

What was annoying for me, bare in mind, I didn't know I was using bugs/exploits, is that I would come on here and then have my experience dismissed out of hand because I had unintentionally landed on an exploit. What's more, I did it twice!

I think the first was FM12, I had great fun with that game, I was winning everything and I used a 4-2-4 (Brave? Suicidal?) and obviously I struggled massively with 13 and was told I was only that good at FM12 because of the lack of collision detection and that you could basically cheese things with fast players up top because no collision = ghosting through for easy chances. You might imagine how my morale dropped to Abysmal over that. :P

I don't have a point btw, just waffling a little story. >_>

[Dagenham_Dave]

I haven't seen this 'Experienced Defender' chap in here before, but I have to say I like his style. 

Ok, carry on. 

 

[goranm]

3 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

I like this line, because you're replying to someone who's written like 25% of the guides over there. :P

There are no guides in the ME AI & Tactics bugs forum.

[Spanner]

On 25/10/2020 at 20:51, pcws1979 said:

I have been playing SI developed Football Management games for 27 years (yes since CM2), I never wanted or expected a comprehensive match engine for the game, other aspects of the game interested me more, the day to day running of the club, building squads, tactics etc, when the Match engine was introduced, I saw it as a gimmick, to add to the match day experience, all it needed to do was show match highlights, incidents, in no way do you need to watch the whole match, a FM season takes long enough to complete anyway. Unfortunately with every new FM release a improved match engine becomes a more important  part of the new features of the game, meaning that it gets more attention from the community, as it is generally not as impressive as the rest of the game and for some reason every new edition of the game starts with the same match engine bugs, as the previous edition started with, not developed on from the latest update of the previous edition (this has always puzzled me),  people end up reporting the same bugs after every new release. I for one would be happy if SI decided that the ME was only for highlights and match incidents and concentrated on making other areas of the game more in depth, i.e day to running of the club, player interactions (which up to the announced changes for FM21 had the same issue for around 4 editions), staff interactions lots of things can be added or fleshed out, the ME needs to be a side aspect of the game, not a main feature.

 

I completely agree with you and i can only assume that they made the ME (graphics) to help 'catch' a new segment of gamers.... For them it seems to be the main feature which is very apparent on forums.

It was not necessary before and i like the idea of having a little highlight option but nothing more.

I have never watched a game and you give good alternatives that SI could use their resources on.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Spanner

[Tony Wright 747]

48 minutes ago, Spanner said:

I completely agree with you and i can only assume that they made the ME (graphics) to help 'catch' a new segment of gamers.... For them it seems to be the main feature which is very apparent on forums.

It was not necessary before and i like the idea of having a little highlight option but nothing more.

I have never watched a game and you give good alternatives that SI could use their resources on.

The ME is not graphics.  The ME has always been there graphics came later

[Spanner]

8 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

The ME is not graphics.  The ME has always been there graphics came later

Hence the reason why I put graphics in brackets.

As I read the OP there seems to be a miss-use of ME. 

As I understand it and read, the old skool gamer is staying that the graphics is a 'waste of resources ' (that is a very quick and brutal para-phrasing).

I agree, all you need is some text at the bottom of the screen and SI could better re-deploy the resources saved.

Of course a match engine has always been there. Not the graphics part though.

The ME is divided into many parts.