broken game engine

[themadsheep2001]

16 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Mentality's not just about transitions though afaik, but about how many risks they take to try to score. Pretty common to have sides which are rushing desperately to score who also start everything by playing out from defence and pass mostly short, and sides which counter attack and even hit long direct passes, but will also happily play keep ball when risk free passing options exist. In theory you could decouple that from all the other settings 'mentality' also affects a bit like tempo and defensive line, but I think most people choosing it want global changes to their style of play.

Plus it's also a damn sight more intuitive and closer to the real world managers shouting simple instructions to switch to 'cautious' or 'very attacking' than change half a dozen other settings that amount to the same thing. And I say that as someone that does bother clicking all those buttons at least as often as I change mentality...

 

And we all know it's all slider variables under the hood anyway, 'mentality' just changes a lot at once  

I'd argue there needs to be more explicit transparency in how it effects players movement. Still firmly believe that the game needs to show you an estimated idea of where your players will move to in attack and where they engage defensively. The line of engagement is one of my favourite things about the tactics creators. Also think work ball into box is too all encompassing. I actually don't use, choosing instead to tell all my players to shoot less

[CM]

For me it's not about missed on 1v1s or long range shots. Even overpowered free kicks are acceptable until some point but the thing with match engine is that it heavily favours favourite teams and it at times feels like match engine does everything to help favourite sides win particularly with penalties and free kicks. Not saying it's only AI teams thing. When I play with better teams it happens to me as well. Some dodgy penalty, some indirect free kicks have helped me win games which I played pretty badly and didn't deserve all 3 points. In my Champions League knockout stage game against PSG with Leeds I lost 4-3 away from home and conceded 3 goals coming from indirect free kicks. Bringing this as an example because it happened recently. When I play against top 6 teams away from home games feel like a free kick and corner kick contest. I'm all for losing games and don't believe anybody plays FM series to win every time but the way you lose games and the way you concede goals is more than annoying to say the least. When you play with Leeds or any mid-table teams against top 6 you accept that you are probably going to lose in the end. But when the game starts and you concede 3rd minute goal from some free kick, all your tactics and other things mean nothing. How could I watch highlights of the game like this and see weaknesses of my tactic? I didn't experience this in FM 19 or 18 which I also played over 1000 hours but FM 20 feels all big free kick contest which you can't do anything about.

Edited June 28, 2020 by CM

[steam just is]

On 27/06/2020 at 09:33, Pasonen said:

The more complex tactical features come in match engine the more it will eat away players individual freedom. Especially if strict real life statistics are pursued. 

Why is that the case? I just played a match where Ndombele was a deep lying playmaker in the anchor role for 60 mins and he was replaced by Eric dier as a ball winning midfielder for last 30 mins. The ONLY pass they Both played in the last third of the pitch was a looped pass out to the overlapping FB. With so many options why does the ME make them play this same stultifying pass all the time in EVERY game. Why do 2 players with different traits and instructions play the same pass. Why, after I begged lo Celso to only play killer balls does he play the same pass?? Einstein as we all know said the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again. Playing FM this year is madness. I watch every match hoping it will be different but it never is 😂 😂 😂 

its genuinely appalling. 
 

 

[FMunderachiever]

I just feel the creators of the game struggle to capture real football within the game.

There is too much repeatable stuff in how goals are scored, patterns of play, but theres also far too much really silly stuff. Players firing into the side netting for no apparent reason, defenders running off the pitch and letting an attacker have the ball unopposed, wingers dribbling past 4 men and then literally passing the ball to the goalkeeper, its a bit silly to be honest.

And then......VAR. its pointless. every time theres a VAR review the goal is chalked off. Every time a foul in the box goes to VAR, its a penalty.

The game should be better. the same things are always in the game and never fixed.

[dunk105]

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

I just feel the creators of the game struggle to capture real football within the game.

There is too much repeatable stuff in how goals are scored, patterns of play, but theres also far too much really silly stuff. Players firing into the side netting for no apparent reason, defenders running off the pitch and letting an attacker have the ball unopposed, wingers dribbling past 4 men and then literally passing the ball to the goalkeeper, its a bit silly to be honest.

And then......VAR. its pointless. every time theres a VAR review the goal is chalked off. Every time a foul in the box goes to VAR, its a penalty.

The game should be better. the same things are always in the game and never fixed.

VAR really gets me in FM- in real life the decisions can go either way with sometimes it not being a penalty or the goal given, why on earth choose to have it that way?

You really notice too how bad the ME is when you come back to the game after a break- came back as with lock-down spending more time at home and liked the ME in the demo before the final patch, and now wish I'd waited till the final patch as I wouldn't have bought it off the back of that. I'm staggered that Id have been better off playing FM 2017 as there's no progress in the ME since then- its gone backwards in terms of variety of play.

And as usual its ruined by the final patch and just left. Its the kind of stuff EA get panned for with Fifa.

How on earth does this get past QA? As you say the same old patterns of play-

I tell my team / FBs to cross early and they either shoot or pull it back to a CM, just cross the ball!

I train my AMC to play killer balls- he ignores players ahead and passes wide!

It seems to make no difference what tackling you have, I get games where fouls are 4-25 and my players get booked as much as the opposing team, no wonder every killer tactic seems to just put hard tackling on!

DL and DR seem unaware of wingers until they are past them, even if I set specific marking. AMR and AMLs on attack seem more aware to mark and chase down wide players even without specific instructions.

Chasing a game late on and on very attacking and direct and my BPD decides to pass it back and forth with my keeper- even without instructions players shouldn't do that.

The list feels endless.

Edited June 29, 2020 by dunk105

[Pasonen]

7 hours ago, steam just is said:

Why is that the case? I just played a match where Ndombele was a deep lying playmaker in the anchor role for 60 mins and he was replaced by Eric dier as a ball winning midfielder for last 30 mins. The ONLY pass they Both played in the last third of the pitch was a looped pass out to the overlapping FB. With so many options why does the ME make them play this same stultifying pass all the time in EVERY game. Why do 2 players with different traits and instructions play the same pass. Why, after I begged lo Celso to only play killer balls does he play the same pass?? Einstein as we all know said the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again. Playing FM this year is madness. I watch every match hoping it will be different but it never is 😂 😂 😂 

its genuinely appalling. 
 

 

Thats because if you want to make numbers match real life  you cant have individual players doing things as much you would like. The balance between system and individualism is more and more system based. Game should let managers and players make bigger errors and ofc good decisions too. That would really make you feel you are now managing something what is delicate and can go horribly wrong.   it would require managers  have like commentary screen where would be added things what manager (you) see. "Dm cant pass to playmaker because he's in too high positions", "cd's cant keep ball and pass it out because opposition is pressing so hard"

Edited June 29, 2020 by Pasonen

[zyfon5]

6 hours ago, dunk105 said:

I tell my team / FBs to cross early and they either shoot or pull it back to a CM, just cross the ball!

Any team instructions in the tactics screen will just increase the tendency to do such things and not applicable to every situation. For example hitting early cross will just tell them to increase the tendency however if they think it is better to pass the CM they will still make the pass. What decision they make in this instance is also affected by your other instructions such as tempo and passing directness. What role you have chosen for your player and the attributes of the player will also affect their decision.

 

6 hours ago, dunk105 said:

I train my AMC to play killer balls- he ignores players ahead and passes wide!

Reasons as stated above

 

7 hours ago, dunk105 said:

It seems to make no difference what tackling you have, I get games where fouls are 4-25 and my players get booked as much as the opposing team, no wonder every killer tactic seems to just put hard tackling on!

 

Maybe because you have pushed so high up that every tackle your players made have to be a yellow card? Same goes to the opponent. Because they sit deep so much they are in a good position so do not need to risk a yellow card when they foul you. Not sure what you mean by killer tactic there. Every killer tactic that I have tried with hard tackling generate a ton of fouls and cards.

 

7 hours ago, dunk105 said:

DL and DR seem unaware of wingers until they are past them, even if I set specific marking. AMR and AMLs on attack seem more aware to mark and chase down wide players even without specific instruction.

FM defenders will always prioritize zonal marking over man marking. So even if you set man marking on they will ensure their own defending zones is safe first before they engage players. Defending width and pressing intensity also affect how they behave.

 

7 hours ago, dunk105 said:

 

Players on attack duty will defend more proactively due to their higher mentality so they will close down players without any instructions. Player attributes will also play a role here.

7 hours ago, dunk105 said:

Chasing a game late on and on very attacking and direct and my BPD decides to pass it back and forth with my keeper- even without instructions players shouldn't do that.

There are a lot of potential reasons why this is happening so I rather not speculate why.

In short the ME is not perfect but not every problem you see in game is a direct result from the flaws of the ME. I've played FM2017 before and do not understand the praise it is getting now despite the obvious problems with the FM2017 ME but everyone has their own opinion I guess.

[Pasonen]

3 hours ago, Pasonen said:

Thats because if you want to make numbers match real life  you cant have individual players doing things as much you would like. The balance between system and individualism is more and more system based. Game should let managers and players make bigger errors and ofc good decisions too. That would really make you feel you are now managing something what is delicate and can go horribly wrong.   it would require managers  have like commentary screen where would be added things what manager (you) see. "Dm cant pass to playmaker because he's in too high positions", "cd's cant keep ball and pass it out because opposition is pressing so hard"

Sorry for quoting myself. I just have to add something. At the moment theres a lot more free spaces in flanks and in front of middlefield. Middlefield position them too close defline and defline is static narrow block when ball is in middle and relatively easy to get defline retreat to own box area. This open spaces to flanks and closer middlecircle. Mainly because middlefield is too low and st's too high when defending. So to the point. How its possible to make system and individual performance balanced if formation, defline, marking, leaves open areas.  Its not possible to balance things if theres too much space on some areas for individuals. It would make game too individual dependant. In real life theres not a lot of space and defending as a unit limits individuals effect to the game. Team wins - individual performances usually. Just my opinion tough.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Pasonen

[Federico]

1 ora fa, zyfon5 ha scritto:

In short the ME is not perfect but not every problem you see in game is a direct result from the flaws of the ME.

And not every problem you see in game is a direct result of flaws made by the user as well.

[XaW]

Oh, and it's very possible to FM the AI. I just did it...

Yeah, I'm a Faroese side and I beat Napoli by FM'ing the living daylights out of them. Counters baby, counters! (Oh, and kicking them off the pitch also works wonders with overpaid Italian primadonnas! )

This is the guy who scored two times though, not exactly an amazing player.

Edit: And, no, it doesn't happen always, I got thumped out of the CL qualifiers by BATE from Belarus, so there clearly is a bit of luck involved. It just goes both ways!

Edited June 29, 2020 by XaW

[Samurai Cake]

On 21/06/2020 at 19:22, Tyburn said:

Therefore every CM/FM that has ever been released has a broken ME?

Yes, I thought this was obvious and not even a debate. If it wasn't there wouldn't be leagues of fixes every release and during each games release and nothing to improve on. Every release has something that is exploitable in the match engine. 

On 22/06/2020 at 06:30, Svenc said:

There's always been (oft illogical, and/or ridiculously aggressive) tactics that take Advantage of ME and AI weakness , which are making Player quality pretty irrelevant and fantasy overachievement the norm, and yes, FM 20 is no exception (see the download sections). I don't think there will ever be an exception to this by now. By that standard though, every release was broken, older ones even more so than current ones (Mighty Diablo et all).  

Yup, see above. I wasn't complaining, if you look at my original post, but people were upset with OPs post, I was merely providing a point. 

On 22/06/2020 at 00:35, Cadoni said:

There is no exploit tactics for FM19 or FM20. 

 

Who is correct, you or Svenc? Also, how can you lie, just straight up. This community is toxic as all hell. Hell, I'm watching a video right now from FMScout that plays with 1 defender and is beating Burnly 10-0. Jesus Christ mate, I wasn't knocking the game, I wasn't complaining, but this kind of blind loyalty is ridiculous. 

 

If there is nothing to exploit in the the last 2 match engines, then FM21 won't feel the need to fix anything outside of cosmetics right? Except they will, because there is. 

[FMunderachiever]

7 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Any team instructions in the tactics screen will just increase the tendency to do such things and not applicable to every situation. For example hitting early cross will just tell them to increase the tendency however if they think it is better to pass the CM they will still make the pass. What decision they make in this instance is also affected by your other instructions such as tempo and passing directness. What role you have chosen for your player and the attributes of the player will also affect their decision.

 

Reasons as stated above

 

Maybe because you have pushed so high up that every tackle your players made have to be a yellow card? Same goes to the opponent. Because they sit deep so much they are in a good position so do not need to risk a yellow card when they foul you. Not sure what you mean by killer tactic there. Every killer tactic that I have tried with hard tackling generate a ton of fouls and cards.

 

FM defenders will always prioritize zonal marking over man marking. So even if you set man marking on they will ensure their own defending zones is safe first before they engage players. Defending width and pressing intensity also affect how they behave.

 

Players on attack duty will defend more proactively due to their higher mentality so they will close down players without any instructions. Player attributes will also play a role here.

There are a lot of potential reasons why this is happening so I rather not speculate why.

In short the ME is not perfect but not every problem you see in game is a direct result from the flaws of the ME. I've played FM2017 before and do not understand the praise it is getting now despite the obvious problems with the FM2017 ME but everyone has their own opinion I guess.

With respect, i think your point isnt very good.

Lets suppose players wont attempt an early cross if the "easier" pass is into central midfield like you say. Whats the point then? IM SUPPOSED TO BE THE MANAGER AND I SAY HIT AN EARLY CROSS, NOT PASS THE BALL INTO CENTRAL MIDFIELD. Whats the point in the hit early cross option even existing, if the player himself (Which i cannot control) decides to do something different?

Are you saying "hit early crosses" only works, if i also use lots of other instructions in conjunction with that to make it absolutely clear you HIT AN EARLY CROSS!!

 

With yellow cards, i see full backs getting 18 yellow cards in a season. Thats not realistic no matter what team instructions you put on, its just daft.

 

Players on "attack" duty will defend MORE proactively than players on defend duty in closing down? So are you suggesting if you put your wingbacks on attack it will make them more aware of the opposition wingers runs and stop them rather than just letting them ghost in unopposed (i agree with the poster on the movement of wide defenders).

 

Why do people always play this silly devils advocate point of view about the game, there are things that are CLEARLY either broken, or dont work well.

 

Did they not advertise for full time players of the game recently to iron these issues out? We see them every year, theres something not right. Each year the match engine just seems wrong. What do we pay our money for? a slightly updated database with transfers where an attribute has gone up or down by 1 point? Come on guys give us better PLEASE

[enigmatic]

On 27/06/2020 at 12:11, themadsheep2001 said:

I'd argue there needs to be more explicit transparency in how it effects players movement. Still firmly believe that the game needs to show you an estimated idea of where your players will move to in attack and where they engage defensively. The line of engagement is one of my favourite things about the tactics creators. Also think work ball into box is too all encompassing. I actually don't use, choosing instead to tell all my players to shoot less

Agree with you on this. I don't want user configured arrows or wibl wobl, but do think the ui could illustrate what's going on. That's especially the case for all the roles with funky foreign names and custom movement...

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Samurai Cake said:

Who is correct, you or Svenc? Also, how can you lie, just straight up. This community is toxic as all hell. Hell, I'm watching a video right now from FMScout that plays with 1 defender and is beating Burnly 10-0. Jesus Christ mate, I wasn't knocking the game, I wasn't complaining, but this kind of blind loyalty is ridiculous.

I don't care if I am correct or not or Svenc. What I know is, after 1900 hours with FM20 and 1500 hours with FM19; being part of FM Base Test League, Mr. L Test League and using other test leagues, I can tell you there is no "exploit" tactics. The last exploit tactic was in FM17, strikerless from Knap.

What is "exploit" on FM19 & FM20 is the near post corner routine and long throw in routine.

My critique to SI is not soft, I have been warned if you don't know; but that critique is with good feelings. So, I am not "blind loyalty" type of person (I hate those types of persons); which I think makes more damage to SI rather than good. But this is another story.

As for FMS testing tactics, FMS does not have a proper test league; so, when I am see a tactic which fails in above test leagues, but score 10-0 in a single match, that tells me someone is cheating with IGE or FMRTE to favor the tactics (for reasons unknown if you ask me).

[Prepper_Jack]

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

Lets suppose players wont attempt an early cross if the "easier" pass is into central midfield like you say. Whats the point then? IM SUPPOSED TO BE THE MANAGER AND I SAY HIT AN EARLY CROSS, NOT PASS THE BALL INTO CENTRAL MIDFIELD. Whats the point in the hit early cross option even existing, if the player himself (Which i cannot control) decides to do something different?

Are you saying "hit early crosses" only works, if i also use lots of other instructions in conjunction with that to make it absolutely clear you HIT AN EARLY CROSS!!

Players are much more likely to follow your precise instructions if you use "be more disciplined" as a tactical instruction. The teamwork stat plays a part of that as well. Personally I have only really found this rigid setup only useful in direct counter-attack systems, where you don't have a lot of possession of the ball and want to ensure the counter goes off correctly. In most other scenarios, like perhaps a patient approach or a wing play, you really want them to mix it up a bit and make their own best judgment on what will work in a given situation. It can be particularly useful in a patient system to have a very creative (high flair and vision) midfield, winger, and striker setup, then go "be more expressive". They'll do a lot of crazy nonsense, like wingers dribbling across the field to the other flank, but it will be likely to confound the opposition, break their defenders out of position, and ultimately lead to you getting more chances on goal.

Being less than predictable can be a huge boon, particularly if you dominate possession. Your opposition makes dozens of tactical changes during the course of a game. If you watch their formation during a match, they're constantly shifting around roles and duties. They lock down individual players. Sometimes they'll straight up change formation entirely if nothing else is working. All of this with the goal of limiting your chances and of course, getting more of their own. A one dimensional approach is fairly easy to adapt to (though in the case of a team capable of a good counter-attack the opposition may find their players incapable of the task), whereas it can be a monumental challenge for them to adapt to a bunch of weirdos doing whatever they want, and their boss is yelling at them from the sidelines to be even crazier. This is true in a lot of games, even war. There are a number of quotes, some probably apocryphal, of German generals during WWII being confounded by American soldiers and officers who, while their objectives were coordinated to some extent with top brass, often chose to do the most unpredictable thing they could think of that would still be effective.

I'm personally quite grateful that the players actually have their own behavior, and make their own decisions on a regular basis. If they didn't the game would be remarkably tedious and unrealistic. Hats off to the devs for making it this way.

[Rashidi]

20 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

Every time a foul in the box goes to VAR, its a penalty.

I used to think the same thing, till it happened to me on Twitch. One game 2 incidents went to VAR inside the box, and none were penalties, which was a big shock to me.

[Federico]

Yeah me too. The (small and irrilevant for me to be honest) problem with VAR is that is predictable. When VAR is called for a potential penalty I know for sure it's penalty if a) the call is for a presumed foul inside the box b) the call is for a presumable foul so much out of the box I wonder why I should bother even watching the VAR animation. For both situations the "surprise factor" is 0.

What never changes is GLT (never ever seen a goal awarded) and offsides. Offsides are broken anyway so I'd declare them out of  the contest.

[enigmatic]

30 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I used to think the same thing, till it happened to me on Twitch. One game 2 incidents went to VAR inside the box, and none were penalties, which was a big shock to me.

First time I got a non-predictable VAR decision against me  was obviously the 90th minute in a derby in a title race

[themadsheep2001]

33 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I used to think the same thing, till it happened to me on Twitch. One game 2 incidents went to VAR inside the box, and none were penalties, which was a big shock to me.

Yeah I've had different outcomes, but they are so rare that you pretty much see the usual coming. More variety needed. 

[themadsheep2001]

3 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Agree with you on this. I don't want user configured arrows or wibl wobl, but do think the ui could illustrate what's going on. That's especially the case for all the roles with funky foreign names and custom movement...

See, I do like the idea of returning to arrows to to give you general idea of movement, but i like trying to overload spaces and have players in the half spaces, so not being able to see that makes it trickier to set up.

The one area that definitely needs more transparency in my opinion is closing down, so you can properly tie it to pressing traps. Might be wrong, but seems like the more open and transparent you make tactics, the easier it could be to setup so managers using it too. Could add even more variety to the matches

[warlock]

8 hours ago, XaW said:

it's very possible to FM the AI. I just did it...

Yeah, me too - first season, FA Cup quarter-final:

It'll take me a while to calm down .

[XaW]

15 minutes ago, warlock said:

Yeah, me too - first season, FA Cup quarter-final:

It'll take me a while to calm down .

Lovely! Except that I support Liverpool, that is!

But, yes, it's very possible, but you need a bit of luck and the right set of players.

[warlock]

25 minutes ago, XaW said:

Lovely! Except that I support Liverpool, that is!

Sorry about that .

Just by way of info that people might be able to make use of, we played our usual positive mentality, shorter passing, standard tempo. I dropped the def line a notch to standard, and the LOE to one notch lower, then turned on pass into space. As the screenie shows, we didn't create much but we picked up a couple of free kicks on the counter and our equaliser came from one of those. Obviously, we needed a lot of luck but the AI Klopp made the obvious mistake - played the entire game on 'very attacking' so they were blazing away from all angles and distances. If they'd slowed things down and used their quality more wisely I'm sure they'd have shredded us.

Made a fortune from the game - around £1.5m in TV money, gate receipts and prize money. And I get to do it again against Chelsea in the semi!

[XaW]

1 minute ago, warlock said:

Sorry about that .

Just by way of info that people might be able to make use of, we played our usual positive mentality, shorter passing, standard tempo. I dropped the def line a notch to standard, and the LOE to one notch lower, then turned on pass into space. As the screenie shows, we didn't create much but we picked up a couple of free kicks on the counter and our equaliser came from one of those. Obviously, we needed a lot of luck but the AI Klopp made the obvious mistake - played the entire game on 'very attacking' so they were blazing away from all angles and distances. If they'd slowed things down and used their quality more wisely I'm sure they'd have shredded us.

Made a fortune from the game - around £1.5m in TV money, gate receipts and prize money. And I get to do it again against Chelsea in the semi!

No worries, in war and FM everything is allowed!

That is close to what I did as well. I kept positive, but dropped the defensive line and LOE. Removed counterpress, but kept the counters. Also told the players do be more disciplined. So they player around and around us, but had issues penetrating the defence. In the away leg to Napoli we lost 3-1. We held them to 1-1 for a long time, but a red card in the 69th minute (two yellows) ruined it for us.

But it's very interesting we had success against much better teams by playing positive, even if we withdrew the team backwards and let the bigger team come to us before we launched counters. We could be on to something here!

[warlock]

23 minutes ago, XaW said:

it's very interesting we had success against much better teams by playing positive

Generally I don't like playing on any mentality lower than 'balanced' - it just seems to make your team too passive, and often/always invites a lot of pressure. Similarly, I wouldn't drop the def line too much. You've got to give yourself a chance!

[zyfon5]

8 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

With respect, i think your point isnt very good.

Lets suppose players wont attempt an early cross if the "easier" pass is into central midfield like you say. Whats the point then? IM SUPPOSED TO BE THE MANAGER AND I SAY HIT AN EARLY CROSS, NOT PASS THE BALL INTO CENTRAL MIDFIELD. Whats the point in the hit early cross option even existing, if the player himself (Which i cannot control) decides to do something different?

Are you saying "hit early crosses" only works, if i also use lots of other instructions in conjunction with that to make it absolutely clear you HIT AN EARLY CROSS!!

 

With yellow cards, i see full backs getting 18 yellow cards in a season. Thats not realistic no matter what team instructions you put on, its just daft.

 

Players on "attack" duty will defend MORE proactively than players on defend duty in closing down? So are you suggesting if you put your wingbacks on attack it will make them more aware of the opposition wingers runs and stop them rather than just letting them ghost in unopposed (i agree with the poster on the movement of wide defenders).

 

Why do people always play this silly devils advocate point of view about the game, there are things that are CLEARLY either broken, or dont work well.

 

Did they not advertise for full time players of the game recently to iron these issues out? We see them every year, theres something not right. Each year the match engine just seems wrong. What do we pay our money for? a slightly updated database with transfers where an attribute has gone up or down by 1 point? Come on guys give us better PLEASE

You are still controlling what happened on the pitch to a certain extent but not full control. Hit early cross is not something like play out of defence. And players in FM are allowed to a certain degree of freedom outside of tactical confines. If you are not aware of this then probably you should learn more about the game.

Wingback on attack duty will not be more aware of players per se but they will close down much earlier and will want to get the ball back at a higher position than a full back on defend duty. Whether that is a good thing or not depends on your tactical set up.

Not sure what you mean by ghosting unopposed there. Do you propose that wide defenders follow opponent wingers whenever they go? Currently in the game now the wide defenders will let the opponent wingers get the ball first before they engage the wide areas due to them being default in zonal defending. 

[Svenc]

20 hours ago, XaW said:

Oh, and it's very possible to FM the AI. I just did it...

ThatÄS then not "FMing" though (e.g. losing to a Buggy Goal, or whatever) -- that's just counter attacking.

When Leicester won the league, they barely ever had much more shots. Actually, they won it with an average 13 shots vs 13!

Fm just doesn't have the data to Show it, e.g. this.

 

 

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, Svenc said:

ThatÄS then not "FMing" though (e.g. losing to a Buggy Goal, or whatever) -- that's just counter attacking.

When Leicester won the league, they barely ever had much more shots. Actually, they won it with an average 13 shots vs 13!

Fm just doesn't have the data to Show it, e.g. this.

I was using the term as a way to make fun of those who call legit results for FMing. I guess sarcasm is hard to purvey in text format.

[Federico]

1 ora fa, Svenc ha scritto:

ThatÄS then not "FMing" though (e.g. losing to a Buggy Goal, or whatever) -- that's just counter attacking.

When Leicester won the league, they barely ever had much more shots. Actually, they won it with an average 13 shots vs 13!

Fm just doesn't have the data to Show it, e.g. this.

 

 

Do you also have a stat of shots from teams that played against Leicester in that season?

[Rashidi]

14 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

See, I do like the idea of returning to arrows to to give you general idea of movement, but i like trying to overload spaces and have players in the half spaces, so not being able to see that makes it trickier to set up.

The one area that definitely needs more transparency in my opinion is closing down, so you can properly tie it to pressing traps. Might be wrong, but seems like the more open and transparent you make tactics, the easier it could be to setup so managers using it too. Could add even more variety to the matches

Basically what I would like to see is a defending and attacking screen on the tactics page. So that with certain roles/duty combinations you could with shaded colours see which zones will be controlled. So after you set up your DL/LOE and choose those team/player instructions that affect positioning, (Overlap/Underlap/Get Further Forward/ Sit Narrow/Stay Wider), we should see shaded areas of the pitch showing which parts of the pitch we control and try and defend and which zones we control when we have possession of the ball. That is pretty challenging now, but ...

I think that little moving graphic indication in the tactical creator which shows dots moving around the pitch for different styles;  now that can be incorporated for this. So once the tactic is created with all the necessary roles and duties it could show with its movement how we would look in attack and how we would look in defence.

[Rashidi]

15 hours ago, Federico said:

Yeah me too. The (small and irrilevant for me to be honest) problem with VAR is that is predictable. When VAR is called for a potential penalty I know for sure it's penalty if a) the call is for a presumed foul inside the box b) the call is for a presumable foul so much out of the box I wonder why I should bother even watching the VAR animation. For both situations the "surprise factor" is 0.

What never changes is GLT (never ever seen a goal awarded) and offsides. Offsides are broken anyway so I'd declare them out of  the contest.

I detest almost every single offside being shown. What i would like to see more of in extended highlights are events that lead to direct and wide freekicks.

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, Federico said:

Do you also have a stat of shots from teams that played against Leicester in that season?

Slightly OT, but for totals (Season 2015/2016): 523 shots for created vs 517 against http://www.footstats.co.uk/index.cfm?task=league_shots

For individual Matches, you can go through all of  their matches here: https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/5826/England-Premier-League

Edited June 30, 2020 by Svenc

[themadsheep2001]

13 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I detest almost every single offside being shown. What i would like to see more of in extended highlights are events that lead to direct and wide freekicks.

Also a massive bug bear of mine too. That said, the majority come from players simply not getting back onside, so that behaviour could be fixed for FM21.

Definitely agree we need to see what actually leads to free kicks. Think I put that into my detailed feedback post some time back 

[_mxrky]

The game is really boring when your opponent scores 3 goals when they have no clear chances, whilst you have 4 good chances + plus many more good chances and you lose the game. Happens way too often and is not a fun concept in a video game.

[GPower88]

I find it much more frustrating that no one plays the simple and obvious pass to create a clear cut chance in the first place. Everything in the final third of the pitch is a disaster and makes it a struggle to enjoy the process of developing a tactic. 

Such a sterile and frustrating match engine

[Icy]

hace 2 horas, Rashidi dijo:

Basically what I would like to see is a defending and attacking screen on the tactics page. So that with certain roles/duty combinations you could with shaded colours see which zones will be controlled. So after you set up your DL/LOE and choose those team/player instructions that affect positioning, (Overlap/Underlap/Get Further Forward/ Sit Narrow/Stay Wider), we should see shaded areas of the pitch showing which parts of the pitch we control and try and defend and which zones we control when we have possession of the ball. That is pretty challenging now, but ...

I think that little moving graphic indication in the tactical creator which shows dots moving around the pitch for different styles;  now that can be incorporated for this. So once the tactic is created with all the necessary roles and duties it could show with its movement how we would look in attack and how we would look in defence.

Perfect thing would the old wib/wob screen, but not editable as in the past, but just to display where every player should be depending on where the ball is and who has it.

Of course that would be an ideal representation, that doesn't mean 100% that it will happen what you see, but the samn way tha a real coach uses a drawboard that is an approach of what the players will face and should do in a field in ideal cirunstances.

 

[Rashidi]

WIMBO is not coming back people should stop asking.

[MBarbaric]

34 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

WIMBO is not coming back people should stop asking.

i wonder what is the reasoning behind it as that is mostly how tactics in real work. Is it exploitability?

[jozza800]

3 hours ago, GPower88 said:

I find it much more frustrating that no one plays the simple and obvious pass to create a clear cut chance in the first place. Everything in the final third of the pitch is a disaster and makes it a struggle to enjoy the process of developing a tactic. 

Such a sterile and frustrating match engine

This. A million times this.

I've got a librabry of situations where the final pass or through ball just doesnt happen. The statistical breakdown of where your goals comes from is a downright lie (unless the game has a different definition of through pass).

I've played none stop 7 or 8 hours a day since the lock down and I can literally count on one hand how often a through ball happens, from open play - especially from an AMC

The AM just wants to pass the ball to the fullbacks.

[Broken_Record]

5 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

i wonder what is the reasoning behind it as that is mostly how tactics in real work. Is it exploitability?

Indeed. At least separate defensive and attacking shapes should be introduced to the game.

The current system doesn't make much sense especially in terms of defending as AMs and STs don't drop enough to help in defense which creates huge gaps on the pitch and ineneffective 'defending as an unit' in general. Just introducing this behavior to more advanced positions would make a huge difference on how the engine works and play flows in general. There would be much more loss of possession, quick turnarounds (and counter attacks) and also way less time and space to pass the ball around the pitch. This on the other hand could lead into situations where overly attacking style of plays could get punishment in terms of conceding chances and goals from counter attacks. 

[Guest]

I am Brora. Playing with 10 early minutes, because MC decide to "kill" their DC player (lol). Well... Time for new laptop? (lol)

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

i wonder what is the reasoning behind it as that is mostly how tactics in real work. Is it exploitability?

IIRC a part of the reason why it was removed was also a debate regarding how positioning works in football. Is it that static that Teams basically employ two "formations" with/without the ball or is it more dynamic than that. 

People will find exploits what works best (even if that may not make an  ounce of sense and on the occasion will lead to added frustrations)  by sheer trial&error each edition anyways. However, it's all a part of the reason why it's gone too, for sure. Same reason why SI have never been in favor of a truly set piece editor (unlike former competitors).  
 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Svenc

[MBarbaric]

4 minuti fa, Svenc ha scritto:

IIRC a part of the reason why it was removed was also a debate regarding how positioning works in football. Is it that static that Teams basically employ two "formations" with/without the ball or is it more dynamic than that. 

People will find exploits what works best (even if that may not make an  ounce of sense and on the occasion will lead to added frustrations)  by sheer trial&error each edition anyways. However, it's all a part of the reason why it's gone too, for sure. Same reason why SI have never been in favor of a truly set piece editor (unlike former competitors).  

of course with ball shape isn't static, but neither is without the ball shape  

what I meant was more in terms of movement and overall gameplan. ie you have a dominantly quick player on the left wing and (part) of the game plan is to play through that winger. So how do you do that?

in real, you'd practice different types of moves where players do coordinated runs in order to create space and get the desired man on the ball. You'd need more than one variation (and from different zones on the pitch) so just one wibble/wobble screen wouldn't be enough   I bet that would be a nightmare to program but I don't understand the obsession with exploits. This ME is as exploitable as any but who cares? it is single player game if someone wants to exploit the game, so what? 

[enigmatic]

7 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

i wonder what is the reasoning behind it as that is mostly how tactics in real work. Is it exploitability?

Exploitability is a big part, but the other problem that either you've got incredibly predictable and unrealistic football where players always make the same runs, or you have FMers complaining that their team keeps playing in a different way to how they're asked.

I drew pretty triangles in midfield when they had it, but the reality is that the passing triangles players make IRL are contingent on what happened earlier in the play and where the spaces are (and selecting something like picking Regista/CM(s)/AP[A] probably does a much more realistic job of describing my general intent of having different average shape in defence and attack)

I'd think being able to see something like those screens would still be useful, but the reality is that where the Trequartista operates when the ball is in the middle of the field isn't well represented by one dot, but lots of arrows indicating the many varied runs he makes to come short or find space out wide or run channels. Inside Forward when the ball's on the opposite flank is a bit more predictable, but it's a big arrow to the far post and smaller ones to the near post or coming short, not just one position they normally try to operate.

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by enigmatic

[Svenc]

9 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

This ME is as exploitable as any but who cares? it is single player game if someone wants to exploit the game, so what? 

It also has multiplayer components though, plus the game is marketed as the "most realistic football sim game on the market". Now if Johnny McFootballfan consistently gets Huddersfield into Europe first Season or smashes the Ladbroke Premiership scoring 6.x Goals average, that'd probably make the game look worse than Fifa Manager. No, wait…  

Edited July 1, 2020 by Svenc

[tajj7]

On 23/06/2020 at 10:15, yolixeya said:

I don't know how those issues you are describing are typical just for FM20 and not for other versions. Strikers shooting from tight angles has always been a part of FM. I played FM07 few years ago and I think you would go mad if you played it now. Strikers shoot from dead angle when they have a open teammate that could score a simple tap in if he would make a simple pass. It was really bad back then and modern versions are much better in that regard but you can still see them shooting when they could pass, not just in FM20 but FM19, FM18 etc.

You can also have massive number of shots and opposition to have  1-2 but still lose. Players are complaining about that since forever. Again how is that typical for FM20?

Long shots were rarer in recent versions but they were scored more often in some older versions and some players are actually glad because of that. I didn't look through statistics and compered it to real life to see if its on point but it I always felt that long shot golas were too rare on FM18 and FM19.

He wasn't speaking specifically about you but in general and I agree with him. It's a certain type of scenario that creates such results and statistics. One team is with agressive mentality attacking and pinning them into box, other team is defending and waiting for the chance. If you would back down a little bit there is no chance they would score that goal. And it's not like the AI manages to do that every single time that it is a issue. And it's not like you can't do that to AI. I won a few games in the same manner agains AI when I was a underdog.

A lot of these problems have been there for a while but have steadily got worse, when they should be getting better. 

Also I don't complain about having massive number of shots and the opposition scoring from 1-2, that happens IRL, it's the frequency it happens and the efficiency of chances as explained above, top teams in Europe have a 15-20% efficiency of scouring goals, in FM you are lucky to get 11-13% with top top players and AI teams that are very good like Liverpool, Chelsea, Bayern, Real if you go look at their numbers in game in other leagues, often some of these teams are sub 10%.

Quite simply it happens far too often, and thing is often you can still win but you win like 2-1, when you should be winning like 4-5-6 to 1, because you create multiple good chances, chances you literally watch being fluffed time and time again by players in good form/good morale with amazing attributes, but you win so often people will be like 'meh' but if you actually really look closely and pay attention to the stats you need like 4-5 very good chances to often just score 1 goal and actually end up with 40-45% of your goals coming from set pieces and another 10-15% coming from long shots, when you are making 3-6 quality chances a game with another 3-4 half chances as well but often are winning games because of set pieces. 

Also if you just drop off, nothing will happen, because the AI doesn't attack, if its on a defensive mentality than most of the time they will stay like that, even if they are losing, I've tried it many times, been 1-2 up in a game against a team that is basically parking the bus, and then dropping off, inviting them on and nothing happens because they won't attack.

Plus they can keep the ball to absolutely silly unrealistic level in their half, even against a high press, they complete like 95% of their passes with average players who are not great at passing but just keep playing passes over and over. If you leave them alone, they will continue doing it and rarely try to win the game or score. 

 

On 23/06/2020 at 10:47, GreenTriangle said:

Attributes taken individually do not mean much. What really matters are the combinations of attributes. And in certain circumstances two players with the same level of this attribute can score many goals ... or none. Hidden attributes are very important. The team's morale is very important. The player's morale, too. Level of complacency. Team cohesion. The way the manager is perceived by the players. And so on. Fm is not like a picture : "this is my player, and he is good". He can play extremely poor in some when certain combinations of factors do not allow him to play at the expected level. Or he can play exceptionally even if he does not possess exceptional abilities

 

But that is actually the point, you look at these players and they are in poor form, with not great morale, and they have poor composure, poor technique etc. for a team that has just lost 5 on the bounce, but suddenly against you are finishing every tiny chance at goal. 

On 23/06/2020 at 10:50, roykela said:

I find this post very interesting because it's different to what i'm experiencing in my game, in general.

- Very clear problem with set pieces.
I know this has been mentioned many times before but what problems? I don't have any problems with set pieces here. Some are good some are bad. Some are scored some are missed.

- Very clear problem with 1v1s being scored.
My players often scores 1v1s. But they also miss fairly often. I don't experience anything outside the norm of real life football there. I was playing an irl match yesterday. Out of 5 1v1s 1 was scored. The rest was saved by the goalie. Now, i know it's only one match but is that unusual? 1v1s are more difficult for the attacker than one might think.

- The AI scoring from an absurdly low number of quality chances.
That is certainly most likely due to tactics. Pinning the opposition down. Bombarding them with low quality chances. Open in the back, so when they finally get their few chances they're in a much better position to convert.

- People with long shots 8 smashing in 30 yarders against world class keepers.
Nothing wrong with that. Long shots of 8 doesn't mean they can't. Same with long shots 1. It just means, the lower the number the less likely. World class players won't take everything when playing against worse players.

- Every half decent quick dribbler able to play like Messi.
Compared to the level they're playing at, yes they would appear to be able to do that. And it should be expected as well. Doesn't mean they're as good as Messi.

- Players tackling eachother then the ball just phases back to the tackler.
I have not observed that happening once in my games. I watch all my matches in comprehensive highlight and i'm now at the end of the year 2047, having managed from lower league and am now in Serie A in Italy.

- Terrible problems with defender positioning
That could be something tactical, with instructions and/or the players themselves. I don't have a problem with defender positioning.

- Centrebacks taking throw-ins.
Does not happen here unless i've instructed them to, and i don't. Hasn't happened at all here.

- Two player closing down the goalkeeper for no reason.
This one i agree with. Not only the goalkeeper but closing down outfield players as well. It happens too often.

- Classic throw-in
Most often i have no problems with them but it certainly seems like this needs to be worked on. The throw-in taker makes some baffling decisions sometimes. And by sometimes i mean more often than it should.

- Midfielder just dwells on the ball
I have seen this a few times but have always taken it as a lack of animations of the player unable to control the ball properly, for one reason or another. I haven't seen it with players running 60-70 yards though.

- The absurdly negative AI that then is able to play tiki-taka keep ball in their own half all game without making any mistakes even against a good press.
The AI teams sure do make mistakes in those situations in my game. My teams have scored quite a few goals due to the teams making mistakes when trying to play the ball around in the back.

If you seriously see no problem with set pieces then you can't be watching games. Teams are getting like 40-45% of their goals from set pieces both scored and conceded, good set piece takers can get like 25-30 assists a season with ease.

 

On 23/06/2020 at 11:04, pheelf said:

You are so adamant that all the things you're observing are all down to the ME that you refuse to even entertain the possibility that there could be other causes (tactical, man management).

Given that is your view there isn't really much more to say.

Good luck 

Because it is, again I have eyes, I watch games, I see what is happening and it is not to do with tactics. 

I mean that is the sad thing here is that people just seem unable to criticise the game despite what is right in front of them.

It is not my tactics that makes world class finishers miss 1v1s over and over and over. Which is proven by top level AI teams converting sub 10% of their chances, a good 7-10% lower than real life. 

It is not tactics that makes players shoot from absurd angles.

It is not tactics that makes defenders weirdly move forward when long balls are in the air and not actually react until the ball reaches a certain zone, it actually looks pretty similar to an issue FIFA used to have with non-controlled players not reacting to a ball until it was in a certain sphere.

It is not tactics that makes teams score and concede around 40-45% of goals from set pieces, well above real life averages.

It's not tactics that allows people running with the ball to beat like 3-4 players without really moving and able to turn defenders like they are stuck to the pitch.

 

I've slowed down replays, analysed them from multiple angles for a lot of this stuff and a lot of it is just baffling, inexplicable behaviour that you would never see on a football pitch even on amateur level, some of the things players do makes literally no sense. 

I know a problem with my tactic and know a problem with the ME, it's pretty clear on the difference, like when my centre back goes charging out of position to close down a full back, it's because I have 'always close down' the opposition full backs, that is a limitation of my tactics (but also a limitation of the tactics engine where you can't set up more complex press instructions, because I don't want centre-backs closing down full backs but because I have a narrow formation with no wingers, I need my midfielders to close down those full backs and challenge them, but I can't get that much granularity and have to accept the flaws it will create).

That is a tactics problem, but when a opposition defender hoofs a long ball forward first time (which of course is perfect) and I watch as the ball is in the air my centre back moves forward (away from my goal) further under the ball, whilst the opposition striker starts moving at the same time towards my goal into the path of the ball, so that by the time the ball is behind my defence my centre back is completely out of position, I know that is not a tactics problem it's a clear ME problem.

Like I said previously in this thread, far far too often on this forum when people make criticisms of the ME, many people's go to response is 'It's your tactics' and it's insulting, and in most cases blatantly false. 

I've played FM for like 20 years, I always create my own tactics and I am generally successful at the game, I am not some tactics guru but I understand how to set teams up and get them to do what I want them to generally do, and I do that by watching the games and looking at things from multiple angles, reviewing mistakes, reviewing goals conceded etc. and when you do that it becomes very clear there are multiple issues with the ME, and people not recognising that are burying their heads in the sand. 

Edited July 1, 2020 by tajj7

[themadsheep2001]

I'll say it again, people can and will have different views and subjective opinions. As long as it constructive, they are welcome. Hammering people into accepting your views isnt really on

[Rashidi]

20 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

i wonder what is the reasoning behind it as that is mostly how tactics in real work. Is it exploitability?

Yes it was.

[hearth1969]

Hey all,

After 20 years or more on this game, I just felt I needed to create an account in this forum to state my opinion. I could go on for a couple of pages but would run into the tl;dr so in short (again, it's just my opinion):

The ME is great. It is also broken. So terribly that gets frustrating to watch at times.

There's roughly a 20% of it that could and should be fixed (in FM2021, no rush) and another 80% that can't - It needs to be that way because, simply put, the developers need to come up against millions of people trying to break and exploit their ME. If it wasn't built to behave that way, the outcome would be much, much worse. Nobody would enjoy winning every match by a margin of 5 goals.

I'm 8 years into my save and facing Newcastle in the FA Cup final. Just 2 weeks before I beat them 4-1 for the league at home. I go into the final using the same tactic (4-4-2 attacking) and lose 1-2. Yep, they scored from a perfect counter and an indirect free kick while I had a trillion shots, CCCs, balls hitting the posts, strikers passing to their keeper, same old same old. Ok, no big deal. These things happen (not). But it's fine. I lost a cup (won the League the same year). But then just for laughs, I reload just before kickoff and I use the game ready-made tactic 4-4-2 - Wing Play. I use the same 11 players which don't fit the roles AT ALL and the same Team Talks. I win 4-0 having 8 SOT, 1 CCC and 0 HC. My players are just THAT good compared to those of Newcastle.

This is NOT a valid experiment by any means. I understand one has to run this 100 or 1000 times with different configurations before coming to conclusions. It is just a recent example but what I will state right below is my opinion after, like I said, 20 years (not game years.. real years) in the game and thousands of hours watching and analyzing stuff about it:

The game "studies" the way you play, your tactic, your players, your strengths and weaknesses and tries its best to counter them, using the resources it has available (AI managers and players). This is all well and fine. But when your tactics/instructions/etc and players abilities combination is just too strong and every game tends to end 8-2 in your favor, it employs "stuff" (call them super keepers, stupid acting world-class players of your own that all of a sudden can't shoot or pass to a free teammate 4 meters away to score an easy goal) to counter this. You still get 30 shots and 20 on target and maybe score once or twice, while your AI opponents using their limited resources in an absolutely fair way score the same. That's all it is and it can come out 2-0 or 0-2 or anything in between.

All that said (which might be just my wild imagination and absolutely untrue), FM2020 is a fantastic game and I will continue enjoying it as much as I can. Except from the times it makes me wanting to break the monitor. So maybe every 30 minutes on average :)

[roykela]

7 hours ago, tajj7 said:

If you seriously see no problem with set pieces then you can't be watching games. Teams are getting like 40-45% of their goals from set pieces both scored and conceded, good set piece takers can get like 25-30 assists a season with ease.

I watch every single match in comprehensive highlights. I'm in the year 2049 so it has been a lot of games.

Right now i'm at 21st February 2049, with Roma in Serie A.
Knocked out of the quarter-finals in the cup. Waiting for the 2nd round of Europa League and currently 1st in Serie A. Best season so far (waiting for the inevitable dip ).

The figures so far are:
Goals Conceded - 27
Goals conceded from Set Pieces - 7
Percentage - 25,93%

Goals Scored - 109
Goals scored from Set Pieces - 31
Percentage - 28,44%

Those are the last 50 games, all games.

If i limit it to only the last 50 domestic league games it provides these results:
Goals Conceded - 16
Goals conceded from Set Pieces - 3
Percentage - 18,75%

Goals Scored - 61
Goals scored from Set Pieces - 17
Percentage - 27,87%

The figures are taken from the analysis screen. I know they can be a bit wonky but the numbers are pretty much in line with what i observe during the matches.
And i haven't done anything with set pieces. They're on default.
This has been the norm for me for all clubs i have managed, which have been with 10 different clubs, in 8 different countries.

When it comes to headed goals i find the following:
Goals scored - 109
Headers scored - 27
Percentage - 24,77%

Goals conceded - 27
Headed goals conceded - 5
Percentage - 18.52%

So in other words; No. In my game i don't see the problems with set pieces at all.
Same with 1v1s.
Just the other game i had my striker capitalising on a mistake by the defender. Took the ball, ran towards the goalie, rounded the goalie and calmly slotted the ball into an empty net.

-EDIT-
As an additional note; 40 of those last 50 games in all competitions are in my current season.

-EDIT 2-
I have to retract my information about set pieces setup. It is not on default. I have most certainly set up the free-kick and corner set pieces up myself.
I had completely forgotten as it was quite some time since i set it up and i normally don't touch it.

Edited July 1, 2020 by roykela
Adding info