gegenpress - overpowered

[DavidWaters]

The only gripe I have with FM at the moment is how overpowered the gegenpress playing style is, and it's been this way for around the past 5 years, If you use gegenpress on FM you will dominate/win many more games on FM than any other playing style.

 

I know it's been said that players will become more fatigued when using this style but I still don't think that's been implemented correctly, it should be that you need specific types of players with specific attributes to play the gegenpress as well as it plays.

 

I thought this would have been sorted by now, I know people will say it's not overpowered but if you go onto the tactics downloaded forum, most tactics are all press high, step up, press much more etc.

 

If you go and watch the YouTubers playing FM, the majority of them are using gegenpress, why? Because it's easy to win using it.

[SPE3D]

100% agree. I wonder if it's this way because it allows the casual player to win games and enjoy the game more. If that is the case I really wish they would make a game with levels which allows all of us to enjoy the game.

[Zemahh]

No, no, plug-and-play gegenpress tactics are a thing of the past, remember?

[bobbyb12345]

The bit that always gets me. Gegenpressing has been overpowered for 5-6 years yet... You watch a game in the match engine, players don't actually "press".

It's both overpowered yet not especially clear what's actually happening. It's like putting a team on a high press just makes the AI more passive. 

[DavidWaters]

2 minutes ago, bobbyb12345 said:

The bit that always gets me. Gegenpressing has been overpowered for 5-6 years yet... You watch a game in the match engine, players don't actually "press".

It's both overpowered yet not especially clear what's actually happening. It's like putting a team on a high press just makes the AI more passive. 

I agree to a certain extend, but I also think if you watch games on full match mode you see more clearly how pressing works.

[parsdaft1982]

I dont agree, I cant seem to get it to work! At least, it is very inconsistent for me.

[bobbyb12345]

Just now, DavidWaters said:

I agree to a certain extend, but I also think if you watch games on full match mode you see more clearly how pressing works.

In the sense that the player nearest the ball closes down the ball carrier, yes. But in terms of cutting off passing options, is there any evidence of that? Haven't played much in the past couple of years but it felt like setting the pressing intensity to the highest setting just meant you'd constantly close down the ball carrier. 

 

I never really watched beyond extensive highlights though. Comprehensive just felt like extended just with loads more offsides. 

[DavidWaters]

3 hours ago, Zemahh said:

No, no, plug-and-play gegenpress tactics are a thing of the past, remember?

I bet it still ends up being this way in a few years, they have known about it long enough anyway just from the above and nothing has changed so far.

[rjc111]

The problem isn't that gegenpress is too easy or too effective. Its that other tactics are not effective enough. I've not been convinced for a long time that anything other than attacking football is as effective as it should be.

[DavidWaters]

5 minutes ago, rjc111 said:

The problem isn't that gegenpress is too easy or too effective. Its that other tactics are not effective enough. I've not been convinced for a long time that anything other than attacking football is as effective as it should be.

lower mentalities below balanced ive struggled with in the past.

Edited November 7, 2023 by DavidWaters

[herne79]

There’s a whole forum with lots of guides, articles and tips on how to be successful with lots of different play styles, gegenpress or otherwise.

imo it’s not that gegenpress is “overpowered” - it’s just easier to set up and maintain than other styles of play.  Other styles of play have always been (and continue to be) just as successful but they tend to be harder to set up effectively and maintain.

If all styles of play were just as easy the game would get boring pretty quickly.  Things can certainly be improved of course, but if anyone wants to develop their own style then check the Tactics forum.

[dunk105]

Do find thought that I can see when an opponent using it in that Im not seeing them pressing harder, but that my passing goes to pot in terms of short passes or players running away from the ball. Its effect is fine logically but the way the ME displays it isn't so good.

Not game breaking but its a bit FIFA in that the effect is seen from my players rather than observing what the opposing team is doing.

Edited November 7, 2023 by dunk105

[potbellypigs]

I reckon I must be the worst FM player eve to grace the game if people are saying they are winning loads with GGP. I'm certainly not.

[dunk105]

2 minutes ago, potbellypigs said:

I reckon I must be the worst FM player eve to grace the game if people are saying they are winning loads with GGP. I'm certainly not.

Depends who your team and players are!

Would suspect many are doing this with already top tier sides, or at least its useful to know if this OP success is from playing as Man City, or dominating with Luton Town.

[SynergyIso7]

You choose how to play the game, I personally don't use the preset tactics and make my own. You can create your own version of pressing and take more satisfaction when it comes off. 

[DavidWaters]

12 minutes ago, SynergyIso7 said:

You choose how to play the game, I personally don't use the preset tactics and make my own. You can create your own version of pressing and take more satisfaction when it comes off. 

I don't disagree, but when sigames are constantly saying they want to be as realistic as possible, having high pressing like this doesn't match that.

 

I don't personally use it, i just want the game to be the best it can be.

Edited November 7, 2023 by DavidWaters

[DavidWaters]

20 minutes ago, dunk105 said:

Depends who your team and players are!

Would suspect many are doing this with already top tier sides, or at least its useful to know if this OP success is from playing as Man City, or dominating with Luton Town.

Pick a team for me, go on, I'll do a test save using a gegenpress, and I bet you any amount of money that I overachieve.

[GreenTriangle]

how many teams use high-intensity pressing for 90 minutes in real life ? extremely few, and in no case in the lower leagues. the game allows use for 90 minutes because it's just a game

[Seyen]

The real problem is that making a gegenpress tactic, where players run and press in a high way, while leading to the decrease in players's tiredness, does not lead to become less effective. A tired player should no longer be able to make that pressing in the non -possession phase, and should not allow lucidity in the possession phase. This does not seem to me happen

[Dagenham_Dave]

8 hours ago, SPE3D said:

100% agree. I wonder if it's this way because it allows the casual player to win games and enjoy the game more. If that is the case I really wish they would make a game with levels which allows all of us to enjoy the game.

It's been said multiple times, difficulty levels on this kind of game would be massively time consuming for SI, and almost impossible to implement anyway. 

You can make FM as easy or hard as you want yourself, and there's a mountain of modded content out there that can also help with that. That's what other gamers do when the vanilla game gets too easy for them, they find mods to make it harder. 

[bobbyb12345]

1 hour ago, GreenTriangle said:

how many teams use high-intensity pressing for 90 minutes in real life ? extremely few, and in no case in the lower leagues. the game allows use for 90 minutes because it's just a game

I'm not actually convinced stats or fatigue actually impact what's seen in the match engine. All the players look/play the same way. I don't think you could watch a non-league game and be able to spot the difference without the stadium around the outside. 

[SPE3D]

4 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's been said multiple times, difficulty levels on this kind of game would be massively time consuming for SI, and almost impossible to implement anyway. 

You can make FM as easy or hard as you want yourself, and there's a mountain of modded content out there that can also help with that. That's what other gamers do when the vanilla game gets too easy for them, they find mods to make it harder. 

I already use mods but if the modders can make the game harder then SI can.

[fc.cadoni]

Gegenpress with 22 man squad, is hard. Especially in some leagues with two matches per week. If SI will increase injury frequency and ratio (aka more injuries) to match real life, even 33 man squad will not be anough to use Gegenpress more than 60' minutes. The only way to nerf Gegenpress: Increase injuries to 100%; and not having them in 80%. 

[nico_france]

Il y a 5 heures, Seyen a dit :

The real problem is that making a gegenpress tactic, where players run and press in a high way, while leading to the decrease in players's tiredness, does not lead to become less effective. A tired player should no longer be able to make that pressing in the non -possession phase, and should not allow lucidity in the possession phase. This does not seem to me happen

With 5 subs now

it completely changes everything 

As it’s almost possible to press for 90 minutes 

[Etebaer]

The thing is Gegenpress is an active tactic and in my epxerience you have more success with active tactics than with passive ones in FM  and honestly that is not so far of from real football.

Passive Teams lose more often than active Team if the activity is well balanced (not like the former german nationalteam that invited the oponent to make them lose with stubborn predictability).

Also Gegenpress if done right catches the oponent in his most vulnerable phase of play and should rightfuly increase your success.

Exhaustion is only a matter if your opponent is in result less exhausted than you but if done right he will be at least equaly if not more more exhausted and demoralized.

I dont see why Gegenpress should not be a strong tool to use?

 

Playing a passive tactic means pretty much: Pls dear oponent gift us the points - will you be so nice?

 

[scott MUFC]

been using the same tactic for a good few versions now, this year its been better, at the end of the day, i select how my players should play, they are doing that now, which is... well what you want

[whatsupdoc]

This has been the same for years because they can't really change the ME much without huge unintended consequences. 

Hopefully 25 is something of a rebuild for the ME.

[Mars_Blackmon]

11 hours ago, Etebaer said:

The thing is Gegenpress is an active tactic and in my epxerience you have more success with active tactics than with passive ones in FM  and honestly that is not so far of from real football.

Passive Teams lose more often than active Team if the activity is well balanced (not like the former german nationalteam that invited the oponent to make them lose with stubborn predictability).

Also Gegenpress if done right catches the oponent in his most vulnerable phase of play and should rightfuly increase your success.

Exhaustion is only a matter if your opponent is in result less exhausted than you but if done right he will be at least equaly if not more more exhausted and demoralized.

I dont see why Gegenpress should not be a strong tool to use?

 

Playing a passive tactic means pretty much: Pls dear oponent gift us the points - will you be so nice?

 

The problem is that it is strong with players who don't have the physical or technical attributes to play it at a high level.  You can Gegenpress your way from Level 10 England until it is time to buy better quality players, which is usually League 2. 

In reality, players in level 10 using such tactics should be very fatigued, caught out of position, and lose the ball way more than they are now.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[bobbyb12345]

Been like this for what? 5-6 years at this point. I doubt it's a concern, I think having an "easy" tactical approach is part of the appeal for a lot of players.

[RCCook]

21 hours ago, Seyen said:

The real problem is that making a gegenpress tactic, where players run and press in a high way, while leading to the decrease in players's tiredness, does not lead to become less effective. A tired player should no longer be able to make that pressing in the non -possession phase, and should not allow lucidity in the possession phase. This does not seem to me happen

In my current Gladbach save, I just played a friendly against a 4th-division German team. The AI made no subs, pressed heavily for the entire match, and still managed to have 7 outfield players with "fair" condition after 90 minutes. FM23 seemed to have the same issue with fatigue not affecting the AI's ability to press, and it made the game miserable at times.

[Ngoc]

Is the gegenpress crowd the same that keep whining that there are too many injuries?

[Fraser]

I'm mindful that Gegenpress is not the only style with a high press, an intense press and counter pressing, so it's not the only 'pressing' tactical preset.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it's successful because of the instructions when they win the ball back.

Most other strategies with counter pressing or an intense press, and no low block, are about keeping the ball. Gegenpress is a direct, high tempo, get in behind style.

That being said - I've done tests, going on holiday for a season, with multiple teams and using the various tactical presets and Gegenpress is definitely the strongest.  They default is also stronger than tactics and custom presets that I made and had success with.

I might do a test with a couple of the other presets set up with Gegenpress transition and defending instructions, but keeping their own 'in possession' ones.

[wazzaflow10]

On 07/11/2023 at 10:15, DavidWaters said:

Pick a team for me, go on, I'll do a test save using a gegenpress, and I bet you any amount of money that I overachieve.

Man City

Good luck overachieving when you're already at the top. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

18 hours ago, SPE3D said:

I already use mods but if the modders can make the game harder then SI can.

Yeah, but unlike the modding community, SI would have to thoroughly test all aspects of any core change to the gameplay, and it's their business model at risk. Modders have the freedom to do what they want, whether it breaks the game or not. 

Best example of this was back on FM22 when some bright spark discovered you could alter the main json file and alter the way the match engine worked. Of course, people lapped this up in droves without properly understanding that it actually broke the game to bits. Which is exactly why SI restricted access to this file last year. 

[Sunstrikuuu]

On 07/11/2023 at 09:14, herne79 said:

There’s a whole forum with lots of guides, articles and tips on how to be successful with lots of different play styles, gegenpress or otherwise.

imo it’s not that gegenpress is “overpowered” - it’s just easier to set up and maintain than other styles of play.  Other styles of play have always been (and continue to be) just as successful but they tend to be harder to set up effectively and maintain.

If all styles of play were just as easy the game would get boring pretty quickly.  Things can certainly be improved of course, but if anyone wants to develop their own style then check the Tactics forum.

The advantage of pressing systems as implemented in FM is that you can get 90% of the way to a good one by selected a base formation and clicking all the "press more, higher, harder" buttons.  Getting a positional low block with limited pressing to work is much more complex, and frankly a lot of the guides boil down to "do a lot of the same things you do in a pressing system, just in a mid block". 

Another advantage of pressing systems is that you can play insanely high-tempo, hard-running crash-bang football for 90 minutes three times a week with no real effects on health or fitness, as long as you rotate a little bit.  Don't need to turn the tempo down during games to give players a breather, don't need to carefully consider whether a player needs to be nursed through a busy period.  Systems that put fewer meters and fewer sprints into players' legs are disadvantaged by comparison.

[SPE3D]

59 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Yeah, but unlike the modding community, SI would have to thoroughly test all aspects of any core change to the gameplay, and it's their business model at risk. Modders have the freedom to do what they want, whether it breaks the game or not. 

Best example of this was back on FM22 when some bright spark discovered you could alter the main json file and alter the way the match engine worked. Of course, people lapped this up in droves without properly understanding that it actually broke the game to bits. Which is exactly why SI restricted access to this file last year. 

Wish they tested some of this year's headline features. That would have been a good start.

[SPE3D]

On 08/11/2023 at 15:23, Ngoc said:

Is the gegenpress crowd the same that keep whining that there are too many injuries?

Probably 

[Mars_Blackmon]

59 minutes ago, SPE3D said:

Probably 

Most likely, everyone who has high-intensity tactics, high lines, press urgent, use gets sucked in, counter, counter-press, and attacking mentality. No plug-in-play tactic is complete without those pillars, so this is probably true.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[dzek]

On 08/11/2023 at 04:10, Etebaer said:

The thing is Gegenpress is an active tactic and in my epxerience you have more success with active tactics than with passive ones in FM  and honestly that is not so far of from real football.

Passive Teams lose more often than active Team if the activity is well balanced (not like the former german nationalteam that invited the oponent to make them lose with stubborn predictability).

Also Gegenpress if done right catches the oponent in his most vulnerable phase of play and should rightfuly increase your success.

Exhaustion is only a matter if your opponent is in result less exhausted than you but if done right he will be at least equaly if not more more exhausted and demoralized.

I dont see why Gegenpress should not be a strong tool to use?

 

Playing a passive tactic means pretty much: Pls dear oponent gift us the points - will you be so nice?

 

I totally agree!

I also want to add here that it's not about Gegenpress or pressing in general. The point is that in real life the one who doesn't have the ball gets more tired than the one who does. 

We first need to know how each system works in real life and then say whatever. If the team's pressing is efficient then it is the other team that should be tired. In Gegenpress the pressing is done as a team (not individually) and in compact spaces, which the system creates out of possession, so that it is more successful.

Then come the negatives of stifling pressing which are:

• Ball management - if you lose the ball soon then players have to run back to press. ( this is where the fatigue comes in )
  • If you combine very aggresive pressing out of possession and tiki-taka in possession then you have the best system in the world. Look Man City right now.
• Player characteristics - if your players don't have certain characteristics as units, as a team and also good team cohesion to be able to faithfully follow the progression of the game and know how to move out of possession then pressing will failed and might produce some injuries too.
  • Training - good recovery and a schedule in general that will keep them fresh for each game. Look Liverpool the last few years.

[Dadecane]

On 08/11/2023 at 16:23, Ngoc said:

Is the gegenpress crowd the same that keep whining that there are too many injuries?

Lol. Exactly, same thing came to mind. Wonder if theres any correlation between…

“genpress is OP!! This game is too essy!”

and

”this is unplayable! I have 7 first teamers injured! I quit!”

Edited November 15, 2023 by Dadecane

[RandomGuy.]

I took over a Kilmarnock side bottom of the league halfway through the season. We went on a 10 game unbeaten run simply by changing to a high line counter pressing tactic and survived easily. Next season i won my first 11 games.

Barely had any injuries.

Im not trying to brag as im poor at the game, but its far too easy at lower levels to win by selecting that. You should be seeing players caught out of position a lot, it should take ages to implement, and poor fitness facilities etc., should see lots of injuries. 

Theres zero difference between playing Gegenpress with Liverpool as their is with Athole Town.

[Drake]

I think the problem is less with Gegenpressing in particular, rather with the fact that nearly any OP tactic involves passing into space and a lot of attacking roles. Pressing doesn't even work that amazingly well, it's just that Gegenpress has 'pass into space' by default and with current (? ongoing for a couple of years, actually) defensive problems, defenders simply can't deal with this particular form of attack. Just take a look at something like Knap's tactics list, every ridiculously overachieving tactic has the same recipe - shorter passing, pass into space, 5-6 attacking roles. 

There was a time around FM16 (I might be mistaken by a couple of years heh) when there really were no more "diablo tactics" available. Nowadays the game has regressed into having a "diablo approach", in which dozens of tactics are overperforming as long as they have passing into space and roles running forward. The 'kick and run' era of FM!

And yeah, with Gegenpress specifically, fitness levels over the course of the game, even with maximum intensity, are still too easy to maintain if you rotate enough to not have people tired before the game.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Drake

[Mars_Blackmon]

4 hours ago, Drake said:

I think the problem is less with Gegenpressing in particular, rather with the fact that nearly any OP tactic involves passing into space and a lot of attacking roles. Pressing doesn't even work that amazingly well, it's just that Gegenpress has 'pass into space' by default and with current (? ongoing for a couple of years, actually) defensive problems, defenders simply can't deal with this particular form of attack. Just take a look at something like Knap's tactics list, every ridiculously overachieving tactic has the same recipe - shorter passing, pass into space, 5-6 attacking roles. 

There was a time around FM16 (I might be mistaken by a couple of years heh) when there really were no more "diablo tactics" available. Nowadays the game has regressed into having a "diablo approach", in which dozens of tactics are overperforming as long as they have passing into space and roles running forward. The 'kick and run' era of FM!

And yeah, with Gegenpress specifically, fitness levels over the course of the game, even with maximum intensity, are still too easy to maintain if you rotate enough to not have people tired before the game.

Yeah, I think Gegenpress is just synonymous with having all OP instructions enabled, and the preset Gegenpress has most of them selected. The lack of stamina problems when playing this style could come from the players not actually pressing when they should.

[Sunstrikuuu]

28 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Yeah, I think Gegenpress is just synonymous with having all OP instructions enabled, and the preset Gegenpress has most of them selected. The lack of stamina problems when playing this style could come from the players not actually pressing when they should.

I said in the general feedback thread that I think a reason it works is that players are too passive by default, and unless you give them specific instructions to do things they mostly don't do anything.  Even in systems where you want your players flying into tackles, closing down aggressively etc etc etc, you're likely to see little square passes played across the top of the box while the defenders back off into their six-yard box.  Even with the most high-tempo football available, players will put their foot on the ball and stand there until they're closed down and tackled by a defender crab-walking towards them at speeds normally reserved for grannies at a crosswalk.  God forbid you try playing passively; you might as well not have anyone on the pitch.

[priority76]

7 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I took over a Kilmarnock side bottom of the league halfway through the season. We went on a 10 game unbeaten run simply by changing to a high line counter pressing tactic and survived easily. Next season i won my first 11 games.

Barely had any injuries.

Im not trying to brag as im poor at the game, but its far too easy at lower levels to win by selecting that. You should be seeing players caught out of position a lot, it should take ages to implement, and poor fitness facilities etc., should see lots of injuries. 

Theres zero difference between playing Gegenpress with Liverpool as their is with Athole Town.

Plays the game using unrealistic tactics, complains when getting unrealistic results.  Why not try and play the way Kilmarnock do in real life.  Sure, you might end up bottom of the league but at least you'd be having fun right?

[Mars_Blackmon]

3 minutes ago, priority76 said:

Plays the game using unrealistic tactics, complains when getting unrealistic results.  Why not try and play the way Kilmarnock do in real life.  Sure, you might end up bottom of the league but at least you'd be having fun right?

How is that an unrealistic tactic? I don't think it's the user's fault if the game allows unsuitable players to use certain strategies. This would never fly in any other strategy game on the market.

[Ngoc]

This is the face of my cat when I told him "he didn't think it was cheating"

there is no way in hell you use Gegenpress and double training players and don't understand that is humanly not possible for a player to keep up all season that much pressure/fatigue and you are obviously doing something that exists ONLY in-game (not in real life) specifically left for people that struggle to win and need a "helping hand" but is far from being realistic. Unfortunately, this game aims at realism so if you do unrealistic stuff and AI does realistic stuff can you guess the result?

Like buying players looking at Pace/Acceleration stats, it is in the game and some people even play with unmasked stats but that is an allowed-cheating and if you cheat you shouldn't come here and say the game is "too" easy (Ai probably buy player following scouting advice that is how it should be for human too removing the stat would go a long way to even odds)

You can play and cheat your heart content scout hidden stat with the editor tools or even modify to make your players stronger it is a single-player game nobody cares, but please don't come here and say the game is easy "Learn to play legit" is all I can say. And I didn't even touch the save scamming I can win 30 matches consecutively if I want to but the game is not easy I just make it easy. Until the game sets up a "hidden stat no saving game (only autosave)" mode and connects it to the achievements I won't believe anybody that says the game is easy. Of course, it is easy if you MAKE it easy for yourself to win. But you can make it hard if you want to.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Ngoc

[priority76]

Just now, Mars_Blackmon said:

How is that an unrealistic tactic? I don't think it's the user's fault if the game allows unsuitable players to use certain strategies. This would never fly in any other strategy game on the market.

Mars, you've been complaining about this game for years.  Maybe you need to accept it's never to meet your standards.

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 minutes ago, priority76 said:

Mars, you've been complaining about this game for years.  Maybe you need to accept it's never to meet your standards.

Please indicate where I have made any complaints.

I play the game for what it is, but that doesn't mean it doesn't need improvements, as this version was hyped as the most complete and a love letter to fans.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[priority76]

Just now, Mars_Blackmon said:

Please indicate where I have made any complaints.

OK a very, very quick look at your post history bring me to this (please forgive me if it's out of context):

To me shows that you've had this perception of the game being too easy for quite some time.  Now that's fair enough, but do you really think that if it's been so easy for you for years it's going to change any time soon.  Surely at this point complaining on this forum about gegenpress making the game too easy must feel like shouting into the void.  Wouldn't it be a more enjoyable use of your time to find a way of playing FM that you find enjoyable or play one of those other strategy games with its better game design.