gegenpress - overpowered

[Mars_Blackmon]

5 minutes ago, priority76 said:

OK a very, very quick look at your post history bring me to this (please forgive me if it's out of context):

To me shows that you've had this perception of the game being too easy for quite some time.  Now that's fair enough, but do you really think that if it's been so easy for you for years it's going to change any time soon.  Surely at this point complaining on this forum about gegenpress making the game too easy must feel like shouting into the void.  Wouldn't it be a more enjoyable use of your time to find a way of playing FM that you find enjoyable or play one of those other strategy games with its better game design.

You bring up a post from 3 years ago that is not even a complaint...

And since you are digging up old posts, I am sure you can find tons of posts mentioning that I actively handicap myself. I'm at the point where I ask ChatGPT to suggest tactics based on my team's strengths and weaknesses.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Etebaer]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb SPE3D:

Probably 

Nope - usually heavy injuries come from my players being tackled harshly or freak incidents and light injuries are no more than usual.

But i dont tell my players to get stuck in and karate the oposition down...

 

PS: Defensively my style could be called "Catepressio"...

Edited November 15, 2023 by Etebaer

[priority76]

Just now, Mars_Blackmon said:

You bring up a post from 3 years ago that is not even a complaint...

Yes I brought it up because I said you've been complaining about the game for years, which you refuted.  If you say you're not complaining about the game then that's great, I'm really happy you're enjoying it.  That's what it's there for.  It does look a bit like it's complaining about the same thing as this thread to me though.

[Etebaer]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Sunstrikuuu:

I said in the general feedback thread that I think a reason it works is that players are too passive by default, and unless you give them specific instructions to do things they mostly don't do anything.  Even in systems where you want your players flying into tackles, closing down aggressively etc etc etc, you're likely to see little square passes played across the top of the box while the defenders back off into their six-yard box.  Even with the most high-tempo football available, players will put their foot on the ball and stand there until they're closed down and tackled by a defender crab-walking towards them at speeds normally reserved for grannies at a crosswalk.  God forbid you try playing passively; you might as well not have anyone on the pitch.

Yep, very good point, many things i do tactically is to get more activity and proactivity out of my Team that is otherwise a bag of sloths.

[Mars_Blackmon]

11 minutes ago, priority76 said:

Yes I brought it up because I said you've been complaining about the game for years, which you refuted.  If you say you're not complaining about the game then that's great, I'm really happy you're enjoying it.  That's what it's there for.  It does look a bit like it's complaining about the same thing as this thread to me though.

So, if you're not saying something good about the game, you're considered a complainer. That's okay, but why are you still here complaining about people who complain? Why aren't you just enjoying the game instead?

Edited November 15, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Ngoc]

18 minutes ago, priority76 said:

OK a very, very quick look at your post history bring me to this (please forgive me if it's out of context):

To me shows that you've had this perception of the game being too easy for quite some time.  Now that's fair enough, but do you really think that if it's been so easy for you for years it's going to change any time soon.  Surely at this point complaining on this forum about gegenpress making the game too easy must feel like shouting into the void.  Wouldn't it be a more enjoyable use of your time to find a way of playing FM that you find enjoyable or play one of those other strategy games with its better game design.

so true and it's always the same people saying the same stuff never willing to try anything different or listen to any advice. Oh boy oh boy

[Mars_Blackmon]

Just now, Ngoc said:

so true and it's always the same people saying the same stuff never willing to try anything different or listen to any advice. Oh boy oh boy

I have been one of the first people on this forum who have given up transfers in favor of DOF mode because of how easy squad building was..

[priority76]

Just now, Mars_Blackmon said:

Why aren't you just enjoying the game instead?

Yes I think you're right, the amount of negativity around the game here does get me down a bit.

[Mars_Blackmon]

Just now, priority76 said:

Yes I think you're right, the amount of negativity around the game here does get me down a bit.

I guess that is the disconnect. I can leave unfavorable feedback about a game I am playing and continue my day. Two things can be right. I can enjoy the game and want improvements.

[priority76]

Just now, Mars_Blackmon said:

I have been one of the first people on this forum who have given up transfers in favor of DOF mode because of how easy squad building was..

That's great and we need more of this.  Please report bugs to try to get the game made better.  But until it is we have the game we have and shouldn't we find ways to have fun playing it?

[newsuzanoebok]

i cant believe that there are people actually saying its not OP xD

or it is OP, or the other schemes are too weak

[Mars_Blackmon]

37 minutes ago, priority76 said:

That's great and we need more of this.  Please report bugs to try to get the game made better.  But until it is we have the game we have and shouldn't we find ways to have fun playing it?

Bugs have been reported, and it is up to SI to actually act on them. 

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, priority76 said:

Plays the game using unrealistic tactics, complains when getting unrealistic results.  Why not try and play the way Kilmarnock do in real life.  Sure, you might end up bottom of the league but at least you'd be having fun right?

How do you think Kilmarnock play in real life?

Theres absolutely nothing unrealistic about a Scottish Premiership side attempting to play a high line and counter press when a new manager appears.

It virtually never works though when its tried as players are too limited to play it well.

Thats my main complaint with it being overpowered, it shouldn't really work with poor players and certainly not instantly. 

I do have saves where i restrict myself in certain ways, and the game is genuinely enjoyable for the most part (im not one who cares about players complaining/forcing moves, if anything i wish it was harder to keep hold of players from a certain level downwards), but the OP nature of the high line/high press just feels like an issue that might be harming the AI in matches and shouldnt be ignored.

[RDF Tactics]

14 minutes ago, newsuzanoebok said:

i cant believe that there are people actually saying its not OP xD

or it is OP, or the other schemes are too weak

Because people are saying 'Gegenpress' is OP without really speaking on what Gegenpress is and how it's working in FM.

Watching matches, we aren't seeing a great Gegenpress plan being executed. We see our players be more proactive off the ball. I posted many stats etc about this before. This actually little difference, in pressing/defending stats between teams in a league in FM. For example, my PPDA was the same as a manager who prefers 'less often pressing'. But when we see fouls and yellows, I'm giving away a lot more because I'm more aggressive.

Watching the game, we aren't pressing them relentlessly despite all the instructions set to max. We're not pressing high and catching them in a high trap. We actually get played through easily. As data and our eyes see, we don't regain possession high on many occassions. We mostly win the ball back in our own half - again, this isn't exactly the plan for "Gegenpress".

Look below here. I have everything set high. But actually, we are VERY low in the rankings when it comes to pressing and winning the ball back. In fact, Empoli and Torino who are underdogs are in top 3 for PPDA. They are teams playing cautiously. We also rarely actually complete tackles compared to everyone else. We are also 14th with most possession (47%) so we aren't dominating possession nether.

Despite all of this, we are 1st. We give away the most fouls so I feel all these instructions help with the aggressiveness of the ball rather than a "Gegenpress" plan. Using a low-block with crazy intensity also works well which is what I'm getting at. You can defend in a low-block and use high intensity so your players actually attempt to tackle here and there.

[RDF Tactics]

I guess what I'm really getting at that I think it's not a black-and-white thing to say "Gegenpress is OP".

I've been undefeated this year and that was using a 3-4-3 mid-block. We also got promoted with Sunderland, live, using a mid-block. But, out of possession pressing, it's aggressive because anything else is too passive (imo).

I also haven't played with things like OIs and PIs to get more out of a less intense system because to be honest, high and aggressive is my preferred way. It is my preferred way, I can absolutely see the "Gegenpress" has issues. An example is, that a team using a 3atb can get 60% possession against me because we aren't pressing effectively from the front.  Even getting your AMC to press with your striker is a very difficult task.

[newsuzanoebok]

the thing is, almost there arent any tactic without more press, get stuck in, step up more, counter, counter-press instructions, the other instructions arent usefull at all, as nobody ever use them, i dont think 'gegenpresing' is OP, but the normal instructions used in gegenpressing tactics are op, or at least the other instructions arent

[RDF Tactics]

It also depends on how people want to play the game. If you want to use a reactive system then I think you really should react to what the AI are doing.

I do think other stuff work. And also true that aggressive instructions can help you get results

[Mars_Blackmon]

22 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

It also depends on how people want to play the game. If you want to use a reactive system then I think you really should react to what the AI are doing.

I do think other stuff work. And also true that aggressive instructions can help you get results

Yes, the rewards far outweigh the risks, especially when you are in charge of lesser teams.

[zyfon5]

21 hours ago, newsuzanoebok said:

the thing is, almost there arent any tactic without more press, get stuck in, step up more, counter, counter-press instructions, the other instructions arent usefull at all, as nobody ever use them, i dont think 'gegenpresing' is OP, but the normal instructions used in gegenpressing tactics are op, or at least the other instructions arent

Playing proactively is always going to be easier for the average player nothing surprising here

[Ngoc]

maybe try instructions from not OP stuff if you find the game too easy that would help you don't have to only play Gege or those instructions if you really want a challenge try to win without those

 

no need to go to the worst "park the buss" pick-on in the middle maybe direct counter-attack and try to make it successful. There are ways to make the game harder if you really want a challenge but i doubt you do.

[DavidWaters]

1 hour ago, Ngoc said:

maybe try instructions from not OP stuff if you find the game too easy that would help you don't have to only play Gege or those instructions if you really want a challenge try to win without those

 

no need to go to the worst "park the buss" pick-on in the middle maybe direct counter-attack and try to make it successful. There are ways to make the game harder if you really want a challenge but i doubt you do.

Who are you speaking too? I don't use gegenpress. It's still too overpowered though. as your image shows.

[SPE3D]

On 15/11/2023 at 18:52, RDF Tactics said:

I guess what I'm really getting at that I think it's not a black-and-white thing to say "Gegenpress is OP".

I've been undefeated this year and that was using a 3-4-3 mid-block. We also got promoted with Sunderland, live, using a mid-block. But, out of possession pressing, it's aggressive because anything else is too passive (imo).

I also haven't played with things like OIs and PIs to get more out of a less intense system because to be honest, high and aggressive is my preferred way. It is my preferred way, I can absolutely see the "Gegenpress" has issues. An example is, that a team using a 3atb can get 60% possession against me because we aren't pressing effectively from the front.  Even getting your AMC to press with your striker is a very difficult task.

When you say not pressing effectively I disagree. I think it's more a match engine or more precisely a match animation issue. When gegenpress is in effect you see players closing down more than they would with other systems but not as you would in real life.  I believe if the animation engine was better it would show the players jockeying. 

It cannot be argued that pressing is OP and anyone who uses it has an advantage over the AI.

[RDF Tactics]

5 minutes ago, SPE3D said:

When you say not pressing effectively I disagree. I think it's more a match engine or more precisely a match animation issue. When gegenpress is in effect you see players closing down more than they would with other systems but not as you would in real life.  I believe if the animation engine was better it would show the players jockeying. 

It cannot be argued that pressing is OP and anyone who uses it has an advantage over the AI.

No, an effective press isn't just pressing. Force/curving runs. Wingbacks/Full backs pushing forward to support the wingers in a high press.

What you will see is your winger pressing. Your full back is still on your defence line - that's not effective.

It absolutely can be argued lol and you can't really have an advantage of the AI when they too are pressing majority of the time. I have a post and linked all stats. We aren't outpressing teams. We are just more aggressive out of possession. I'd suggest you read that because there's evidence of issues.

There are 15 teams who are recovering the ball quicker than we are. We are also 2nd bottom when it comes to tackles won. So how effective is my pressing here? 

You say it cannot be argued, yet you've completed ignored the fact our high pressing has been far from "effective" in what it's supposed to do. We aren't high-pressing effectively and THAT literally can not be argued lol 

Edited November 16, 2023 by RDF Tactics

[newsuzanoebok]

2 horas atrás, Ngoc disse:

maybe try instructions from not OP stuff if you find the game too easy that would help you don't have to only play Gege or those instructions if you really want a challenge try to win without those

 

no need to go to the worst "park the buss" pick-on in the middle maybe direct counter-attack and try to make it successful. There are ways to make the game harder if you really want a challenge but i doubt you do.

that image litterally proves what everyone is saying... ok, we can play with less OP tactics, but the thing is, it shouldnt be that OP

[SPE3D]

1 hour ago, RDF Tactics said:

No, an effective press isn't just pressing. Force/curving runs. Wingbacks/Full backs pushing forward to support the wingers in a high press.

What you will see is your winger pressing. Your full back is still on your defence line - that's not effective.

It absolutely can be argued lol and you can't really have an advantage of the AI when they too are pressing majority of the time. I have a post and linked all stats. We aren't outpressing teams. We are just more aggressive out of possession. I'd suggest you read that because there's evidence of issues.

There are 15 teams who are recovering the ball quicker than we are. We are also 2nd bottom when it comes to tackles won. So how effective is my pressing here? 

You say it cannot be argued, yet you've completed ignored the fact our high pressing has been far from "effective" in what it's supposed to do. We aren't high-pressing effectively and THAT literally can not be argued lol 

I agree with you that pressing in game is not reflective of pressing in real life but then the engine generally does a poor job of representing real football. Hopefully that will be fixed next year.

I can't argue with your stats either but that is not my argument.  When you use gegenpress or any of the combination of instructions that make it OP then whether it is pressing correctly or reflecting correctly in the stats it IS giving you an advantage over the AI.

For whatever reason the AI does not cope well with it and we are seeing people on here and YouTubers etc all able to adopt these tactics and dominate their game no matter what team they play. 

[priority76]

47 minutes ago, newsuzanoebok said:

but the thing is, it shouldnt be that OP

But the thing is, currently in the game we have it is.  People have been complaining about "Gegenpress being OP" for at least as long as it's been a style you can play in the game.  This guy is at least offering a way for people who find the game too easy to have a challenge.

[dzek]

4 hours ago, Ngoc said:

These data are tested on FM24 or FM23?

[Ngoc]

Fm24 didn’t I link the source is steam guide made by a user with fm24 I guess he did the same for fm23 

 

if you go on steam you can find the original let me look for the link

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3079468967

Edited November 17, 2023 by Ngoc

[JimmysTheBestCop]

TBH the biggest problems with AI teams is training intensity, subs, and rotation. 

I do mostly build a nations long term saves 30+ years. And I never play my match squad before a Champions League match unless its >= 4 full days off. Just focusing on the flanks and playing up tempo drains the other team because they arent coming in 100% full bright green hearts.

I really noticed in my Andorra league save this year. I mean the upsets we are pulling off is just dumbfounding. Made it to the CL semi's already in 2027. Huge upset against Bayern but they were toast 25 minutes in half yellowish. They dont rotate enough in their league matches especially when they have points to spare or their B team is better then the opposition. 

I think it is a lot more complicated then just tactic vs ai tactic. 

Same thing with dynamic youth rating where sure the number changes but it has 0% impact on the actual save. While game importance is the #1 factor in youth intake for a nation. Too many bits and bobs over 24 years.

I hope the FM25 was like a complete new code from scratch. 

[herne79]

14 hours ago, Ngoc said:

maybe try instructions from not OP stuff if you find the game too easy that would help you don't have to only play Gege or those instructions if you really want a challenge try to win without those

 

no need to go to the worst "park the buss" pick-on in the middle maybe direct counter-attack and try to make it successful. There are ways to make the game harder if you really want a challenge but i doubt you do.

Sorry but this sort of thing is misleading and just adds further fuel to the “gegenpress is OP” dumpster fire, as some of the comments above demonstrate.

The system’s default tactics - what you are using here - are not and never have been designed to be used out of the box, which is why this data is misleading.  Some are more straightforward to use than others for sure, but all of them are perfectly capable of being effective if they are tweaked - which is what SI intends.  It’s also worth noting that not all of those systems are designed to be used for 90 minutes each and every match.  Some are designed as a starting point to help address specific situations during a match, so trying to use them for 90 mins every match is just plain wrong.  It has never been SI’s intention to present us with a set of complete plug and play tactics.  Not even the AI uses them as such - the AI tweaks and changes them (if they use them during a match).

So if you compare them as you have done then of course you are going to get differences.

Gegenpress is not - and never has been - “overpowered”.  This myth has snowballed over several iterations of FM to the point where we’re at today.  Gegenpress is nothing more than, generally speaking, easier to set up and maintain than other tactical systems.  And even then there are plenty of people out there who struggle to get gegenpress systems working.  Spend a few minutes in the tactics forum and you’ll see for yourselves - plenty of threads over the years of people asking for help with gegenpress and plenty of other threads and guides showing effective non-gegenpress systems.

So you’re right when you say if people want more of a challenge to not use gegenpress but this kind of data presented is fundamentally flawed and just adds to the cries of “gegenpress is OP”.  Any tactical system can be “OP”, it just comes down to the amount of time and effort people are willing to put into it.

[Dreambuilder]

I think both the casual majority millions of FM-players and the SI sales department rather want the game too easy than too hard.. A perfect balance is impossible as there are so different preferences among the FM-players. So a compromise is always the solution. So if you want it harder you have to mod it, or possible SI Games could come up with a hard mode in some way.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Dreambuilder

[lightworker]

1 hora atrás, Dreambuilder disse:

I think both the casual majority millions of FM-players and the SI sales department rather want the game too easy than too hard.. A perfect balance is impossible as there are so different preferences among the FM-players. So a compromise is always the solution. So if you want it harder you have to mod it, or possible SI Games could come up with a hard mode in some way.

That's the crux of the matter. We all desire a more balanced game. Achieving perfection will be challenging. However, it's also difficult because creating a simulator within just one year and expecting balance when it's evident that the team didn't have enough time to finish/polish the game. This is the only way to explain the issues with the game's AI, training intensity, substitutions, rotation, etc.

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by lightworker

[Ngoc]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

Sorry but this sort of thing is misleading and just adds further fuel to the “gegenpress is OP” dumpster fire, as some of the comments above demonstrate.

The system’s default tactics - what you are using here - are not and never have been designed to be used out of the box, which is why this data is misleading.  Some are more straightforward to use than others for sure, but all of them are perfectly capable of being effective if they are tweaked - which is what SI intends.  It’s also worth noting that not all of those systems are designed to be used for 90 minutes each and every match.  Some are designed as a starting point to help address specific situations during a match, so trying to use them for 90 mins every match is just plain wrong.  It has never been SI’s intention to present us with a set of complete plug and play tactics.  Not even the AI uses them as such - the AI tweaks and changes them (if they use them during a match).

So if you compare them as you have done then of course you are going to get differences.

Gegenpress is not - and never has been - “overpowered”.  This myth has snowballed over several iterations of FM to the point where we’re at today.  Gegenpress is nothing more than, generally speaking, easier to set up and maintain than other tactical systems.  And even then there are plenty of people out there who struggle to get gegenpress systems working.  Spend a few minutes in the tactics forum and you’ll see for yourselves - plenty of threads over the years of people asking for help with gegenpress and plenty of other threads and guides showing effective non-gegenpress systems.

So you’re right when you say if people want more of a challenge to not use gegenpress but this kind of data presented is fundamentally flawed and just adds to the cries of “gegenpress is OP”.  Any tactical system can be “OP”, it just comes down to the amount of time and effort people are willing to put into it.

Those data are data as such facts you can spin around as you want but the person has one team set up the tactic and put it in automatic and get those result that are facts all you say is on the other hand with zero facts only feelings 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Ngoc said:

Those data are data as such facts

Lies, damned lies and statistics.  Mark Twain.

In other words statistics (your "facts") can be spun in different ways and tend to be meaningless without context.  I'm giving you some context above - it's not a good comparison for the reasons given and perpetuates the myth.

TL;DR - I'm not saying gegenpress is not overpowered - I'm saying pretty much any tactical system can be "overpowered".  Gegenpress just tends to be easier to set up and maintain than other systems which is actually what your presented data shows.  Easy is not the same thing as overpowered .

[Ngoc]

Usually, when there is a reason or some advantage in lying he gets no money from that data he doesn't have any reason to lie he gets a team to plug the tactic and run 100+ match 

, of course, is just one team course that team may have players that are well-suited maybe for Gegenpress so he said he will run other data with the other team when he has time to compare and refine the finding

(all written in the link that you probably didn't bother to check) 

because to throw around your wise quote maybe inform yourself with the facts that are given I doubt he has any interest in lying. Of course, he many not be perfect but at least he shares some data that may be not perfect facts but are still facts much more than all the ******** of the other guy saying I read on tactic forum and I think otherwise no data no link just bla bla bla 

[herne79]

10 minutes ago, Ngoc said:

Usually, when there is a reason or some advantage in lying he gets no money from that data he doesn't have any reason to lie he gets a team to plug the tactic and run 100+ match 

, of course, is just one team course that team may have players that are well-suited maybe for Gegenpress so he said he will run other data with the other team when he has time to compare and refine the finding

(all written in the link that you probably didn't bother to check) 

because to throw around your wise quote maybe inform yourself with the facts that are given I doubt he has any interest in lying. Of course, he many not be perfect but at least he shares some data that may be not perfect facts but are still facts much more than all the ******** of the other guy saying I read on tactic forum and I think otherwise no data no link just bla bla bla 

I'll try one last time.

Data is meaningless without context, hence the quote.  It doesn't matter which team or which players the sims are run with.  The issue is testing the tactical systems in the way they are being used and then the data being interpreted as apparently showing that gegenpress only is OP.

Because of how the tactics are being used in this test, the only thing the results are actually showing is that the default gegenpress tactic tends to work out of the box better than the other default tactics.  This is not news - it's well known.  And the reason the gegenpress default works better out of the box than the other default tactics is because they're not designed to work out of the box.  They're designed as a starting point for us managers to tweak and change as required if we see issues and/or depending on the playing staff we have.  SI have told us that and your presented data perfectly demonstrates it.

Gegenpress can indeed be "OP".  Pretty much any other tactical system can also be "OP" but they tend to be harder to set up and maintain.  If you still don't believe me, read some of the guides and articles on the tactics forum.  I'm also currently using the tactic below and smashing up the Premier League with West Ham.  However it's not a plug and play tactic (like gegenpress systems tend to be) and requires my attention during matches to make small tweaks if needed.  ie., it's not as easy to use as gegenpress but could still be called "overpowered".

Spoiler

 

[Ngoc]

I guess you can't read the Excel it doesn't show only Gegenpress is OP other than that obviously you have no clue so stop trying. other people will look at the data and probably understand more.

data are data you have nothing to show the end of the story from my point of view come up with some real data maybe if they are different than what I show and (I doubt) we can discuss "your opinion" vs data mean nothing.

between the 2 i trust the number 100%

Edited November 17, 2023 by Ngoc

[dzek]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

  Hide contents

 

Do you use any PIs? 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, dzek said:

Do you use any PIs? 

No but note that I manage the system during each match and will make slight tweaks if need be so it’s not always straightforward to use.

[SergeiG]

Gegenpress is indeed OP, but beyond it, EVERY team in the game can use it, no matter what players they have, and pull it off like it's nothing.

It's a known issue but it seems SI just don't care and why would they? Addicted suckers like me will still buy the game even if it's broken.

 

[Ngoc]

in all honesty, games are made like this. Some stuff is stronger on one side and weaker on another

for instance, a gegenpress should give you a higher chance to win but a much higher chance of injury and

it's like in other game where you have the damage dealer but has very little resistance

here a park the bus should assure you a very very low chance of injury while a better chance of good results with a weak team vs a stronger team

but people never connect injury numbers to tactics they just want to play gegenpress and they want no injury and the moment they kind of fix it so to speak you cannot use gegenpress without having tons of injury players cry that the game has too many injuries they don't switch tactic or try to fix the problem lowering tempo of their strategy no they keep the highest stressful possible tactic and cry about game being unrealistic with too many injuries

I think gegenpress should be the strongest tactic with athletic team based but should have a lot of downsides like a lot of injuries and maybe morale drop if abuse as players are exhausted while lowering player quality and shortening their peak form

Edited November 18, 2023 by Ngoc

[CamAshworth]

Just stumbled upon this topic.

I usually use my own tactics and have been playing since Championship Manager on the Amiga.

I decided to try this with Blackpool - I set up a 4-2-3-1 Gegenpress and adjusted some of the roles to suit the strongest 11.

I am halfway through the season and 20 games unbeaten in the league and 10 points clear.

Easily beat Sheffield United in the league cup and took Aston Villa to Penalties.

Also through to the later rounds in the League trophy.

I have only signed one player on a free transfer.

Seems pretty overpowered to me to be honest.

[Brodie21]

I'm an average manager who has played the game for years. Whenever i've used Genpress, i've excelled ridiculously.

To me, Genpress = hitting the 'cheat' button. Shame.

My favourite game by far but I think there's been little progression on new features in recent years. Worse still, no progression on improving known issues like this.

[NineCloudNine]

Gegenpress works in FM because the game is too forgiving on injuries & fatigue, training is too easy and because AI managers can’t react well enough.

In practice GP is only possible for elite teams with elite fitness, concentration and tactical intelligence. It also takes a long time to build the tactical understanding into a team, including the time to adjust player PPMs and role familiarity. Trying it with even a second division team won’t work.

In FM it is easy to build tactical familiarity, playing players in unfamiliar roles/positions doesn’t carry enough of a penalty and the level of physical intensity required to press all the time is not sufficiently punished with injuries and tiredness, let alone mistakes resulting from tiredness.

All these things could be adjusted, but at a severe cost to the enjoyment of the bulk of casual players. Intense pressing is also the preferred approach of many of the most popular teams, so replicating it in FM makes sense.

The reason this will not - and should not - change is that without those casual players there would be no FM for us to discuss. Whereas the tactics nerds here can perfectly well use realism mods and choose to set up teams in a more realistic way. Just don’t turn those sliders up! 

[herne79]

2 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Gegenpress works in FM because the game is too forgiving on injuries & fatigue, training is too easy and because AI managers can’t react well enough.

In practice GP is only possible for elite teams with elite fitness, concentration and tactical intelligence. It also takes a long time to build the tactical understanding into a team, including the time to adjust player PPMs and role familiarity. Trying it with even a second division team won’t work.

In FM it is easy to build tactical familiarity, playing players in unfamiliar roles/positions doesn’t carry enough of a penalty and the level of physical intensity required to press all the time is not sufficiently punished with injuries and tiredness, let alone mistakes resulting from tiredness.

All these things could be adjusted, but at a severe cost to the enjoyment of the bulk of casual players. Intense pressing is also the preferred approach of many of the most popular teams, so replicating it in FM makes sense.

The reason this will not - and should not - change is that without those casual players there would be no FM for us to discuss. Whereas the tactics nerds here can perfectly well use realism mods and choose to set up teams in a more realistic way. Just don’t turn those sliders up! 

In reality, non-elite teams and lower division teams can play a form of gegenpress.  It is of course relative to the level at which they play - this is true both irl and in FM.  So Naff Utd FC playing gegenpress in FM 4th division is not the same thing as Elite Club FC playing gegenpress at their level.  That’s perfectly reasonable imo and reflects reality.

The issue for me becomes when we pit a newly promoted / relegation fodder / low to mid table team against an elite team in the same division and can successfully pull off a gegenpress system.  That’s not reflective of real life, which is SI’s stated intent after all.  There is of course a decent sized player base who don’t really care how they play, so long as they win.  So do SI just shut that off to be truly reflective?  I doubt it, they’ll exclude a fair amount of players and I personally wouldn’t want to see that either.

So where does that leave us?  For me it’s about choice.  If we want to simply play to win and don’t care how, we can choose to do so.  On the other hand, if we want more of a challenge and try to win by other means (more realistically perhaps) we can do that as well.  As previously said, the Tactics forum has been full of guides and articles for years demonstrating how non-gegenpress tactics can be every bit as successful.  In my opinion gegenpress is nothing more than easy mode and no more overpowered than many other well thought through systems.

So I think we’re agreeing here, I’m just throwing in the “it’s all relative” angle .

[Brodie21]

3 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Gegenpress works in FM because the game is too forgiving on injuries & fatigue, training is too easy and because AI managers can’t react well enough.

In practice GP is only possible for elite teams with elite fitness, concentration and tactical intelligence. It also takes a long time to build the tactical understanding into a team, including the time to adjust player PPMs and role familiarity. Trying it with even a second division team won’t work.

In FM it is easy to build tactical familiarity, playing players in unfamiliar roles/positions doesn’t carry enough of a penalty and the level of physical intensity required to press all the time is not sufficiently punished with injuries and tiredness, let alone mistakes resulting from tiredness.

All these things could be adjusted, but at a severe cost to the enjoyment of the bulk of casual players. Intense pressing is also the preferred approach of many of the most popular teams, so replicating it in FM makes sense.

The reason this will not - and should not - change is that without those casual players there would be no FM for us to discuss. Whereas the tactics nerds here can perfectly well use realism mods and choose to set up teams in a more realistic way. Just don’t turn those sliders up! 

It's an interesting point you raise & a very good one. Genpress is good for the average player who has a little time here & there, and wants success. Nothing wrong in that. Therefore, I agree with you that it should stay in, with us nerds as you say, simply avoiding it  

I did like using it & playing wide players who cut in, in the mould of Salah, Saka etc & miss not playing that way but I took Southport from the Vanarama National North to Division 1 too easily with it. This though, is where your point comes in, most players of the game want to win, whereas I want steady growth.

Any idea what it's like playing with those wide players who cut in without using Genpress? Is it still easier or is it just the use of Genpress that causes what i'll call 'an unfair advantage?'

 

[Ein]

19 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

The reason this will not - and should not - change is that without those casual players there would be no FM for us to discuss. Whereas the tactics nerds here can perfectly well use realism mods and choose to set up teams in a more realistic way. Just don’t turn those sliders up! 

Are you suggesting that SI intentionally dumb down the game to appeal to casual players and boost sales? Has this been a longstanding practice, predating the introduction of gegenpress?
Is there concrete evidence that easier games sell better? Personally, I lose interest in a save once I achieve consistent success. I found FM22 too easy, which deterred me from purchasing subsequent editions.

[Rodrigogc]

32 minutos atrás, Ein disse:

Are you suggesting that SI intentionally dumb down the game to appeal to casual players and boost sales? Has this been a longstanding practice, predating the introduction of gegenpress?
Is there concrete evidence that easier games sell better? Personally, I lose interest in a save once I achieve consistent success. I found FM22 too easy, which deterred me from purchasing subsequent editions.

I don't think they intentionally dumb the game down, but they don't make any effort to keep the game interesting for those who want difficulty as well. There are some hard games that sell well, but usually easier ones sell better, because a lot of people who game are not necessarily children/teens, but people who work and have responsabilities, and they want to play the game after a tiring day of work and not have to deal with more stress. I'm not sure of this, but in the last few years FM has been increasing its sales and I feel the game is getting easier. I played FM07,08 and 13, and found the AI smarter with transfer moves, squad building, etc...

Football is too subjective, so one has to understand how hard it is for SI to please newcomers and experient players, but gradually over the years we can clearly see how old players have to keep finding mods and ways to make the game harder, which I didn't see happening in old FMs. I myself stopped playing FM these days because the only way I found to encounter some challenge is to manage low level teams, which I don't like. I would like to find challenge managing Real Madrid, but unfortunately that is not possible in FM.

[Ein]

22 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

but in the last few years FM has been increasing its sales and I feel the game is getting easier

I fail to see why there would be a correlation between increased sales and game difficulty. After all, players often can't gauge a game's difficulty until they've purchased and played it.

There are likely other factors driving higher sales, such as population growth, increased remote work, and greater internet access.

[NineCloudNine]

1 hour ago, Ein said:

Are you suggesting that SI intentionally dumb down the game to appeal to casual players and boost sales? Has this been a longstanding practice, predating the introduction of gegenpress?
Is there concrete evidence that easier games sell better? Personally, I lose interest in a save once I achieve consistent success. I found FM22 too easy, which deterred me from purchasing subsequent editions.

Not as black-and-white as that. SI will have a lot more tools to guage customer satisfaction than these forums and raw sales. They also have many years of data about what players actually do, how long they play, how they play, who they manage, how much they engage with various systems etc etc.

All that is very likely to show that tactics nerds like us, people who play very long-term saves, people who use difficulty mods and people who relish tough LLM challenges are a very small proportion of the playerbase and - here’s the thing - already have all the tools they need to make the game as challenging as they want, whereas someone who wants to play as Liverpool with Mbappe upfront for a season or two will lose interest real fast if the default gegenpress tactic results in them having their backside handed to them on a plate by Sheffield Utd.

I see this discussion playing out on the forums of every game I have ever played. No game ever gets harder, because to be successful it needs to appeal to a wide pool of casual players who want to pick up and play, not get regularly obliterated until they master 22 different game systems. People who DO want to do that tend to congregate on forums and complain that the game they have spent hundreds of hours painstakingly mastering has become - surprise! - easy for them.

Edited April 18 by NineCloudNine