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Winter Patch Speculation Thread

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forameuss

forameuss

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11 hours ago, Platinum said:

Finances aside, changing to a subscription model would completely change their development cycle. The whole business model is built around getting new features out for an November release. If they didnt have the pressure of a strict November release every year then they could be more flexible with what they spend development time on and when.

Who knows how it would impact things if it was actually implemented but it's wrong to say it would make no difference and there are potential benefits if you just look at it from a development point of view.

You're right, they don't have the pressure of a strict November release.  They've now got the pressure of constant releases.  It would obviously change things, but I'm not seeing the amazing benefits that people like to pretend there will definitely be.  Some pressures disappear, some others replace them.  

10 hours ago, stevemc said:

It can do, a monthly subscription could have a slightly higher cost against it, therefore raising extra revenue to put back into continuous development and if utilised correctly can unlock internal budgets and resource. This would help with smaller more manageable targeted updates (to fix bugs and possibly iterate on current features) after a major yearly update/release, all the way through. Not just an update in March then radio silence until the next FM comes out.

They could do everything I said in the current model, you’re correct, but why would they when they already have payments up front? Get an update out then it’s all eyes on FM24.

Both options could be available but each to their own, just a thought. :thup:

But this is always the sticking point for this kind of stuff for me.  People say that if they get all this continuous stream of money and they step off the hamster wheel of a yearly cycle, then things WILL get better, and they WILL get more time, and they WILL be able to release smaller updates.  This is based on absolutely nothing but their own desires.  Let's face it, SI are going to do whatever it is they believe will net them the greatest profit, balanced against what they feel is the most efficient way to work.  Currently, that's the yearly release.  There seems to be this belief too that the only reason they do things this way is because they can't be arsed doing it any other way.  That they need some kind of incentive.  What happens when you all move to a subscription model and updates happen at exactly the pace they always have, because that's just how long it's taking to fully test what they're trying to do?  Development isn't just something you can turn the dial up on and get it done in half the time.  More money coming in isn't just going to automatically mean you hire another developer and things get done 10% faster.  It's not that simple.

10 hours ago, iAlwaysWin said:

You would be surprised what money can do, for one it would provide more incentive from the development team to keep introducing new things that keeps the user investing in the game.

More money = more incentive.

Yeah, the literal money fountain that is FIFA Ultimate Team has absolutely incentivised EA to make their product better, and not at all to make it demonstrably worse.

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DMC-12

DMC-12

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15 hours ago, ajw10 said:

With SI not making any changes after the full release, with the lacklustre update released in December and with the wait for this update, SI are putting a lot of pressure on themselves. This update has to be close to perfect.

The whole launch of this game from the start has put pressure on themselves, and they've just added to it with the lack of updates for the game. I know they care about it, and I know they're working on improving it, but the lack of any sort of communication is just frustrating and gives the opposite impression. 

FM23 should provide a lot of lessons learned to SI ahead of FM24. 

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SI normally do three patches don’t they, they release the game, then release one or two patches depending on bugs etc. after the game releases then they release the February/March update then potentially a further update depending on bugs. Then they get ready to release a new game come November. 
 

So the question is, do they do more patches or stick to their new game every year system?

I think this year FM23 really let me down, I herd that free kicks could potentially get updated on FM23. And yet it remains the same, I mean it hasn’t changed in years, if I recall set pieces have been like this since FM05…? With such a huge impact in Football, I would have thought that:

1. Implement specific coaches to do set piece training, ie. custom routines. 

2. custom set piece routines that you can create - if you don’t want the coach to do it. 

These two points could have easily have been implemented especially since they created a new role -wide centre back- and a few years back, a new staff role - loan manager etc. and they could have implemented that in a patch. 
 

the whole point of my rant is, they could implement a small new content patch in the March update, and it would justify the wait times, if we knew that at the end of march we would get an update along with new features. 

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blejdek

blejdek

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I think expecting big things is the right thing to do right now. Previous years first big patch was coming 1,2 days before Christmas. This year (fm 2023), the big patch came in early december, which means, they got almost a whole month more time for this patch than the previous years. 

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andu1

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3 minutes ago, blejdek said:

I think expecting big things is the right thing to do right now. Previous years first big patch was coming 1,2 days before Christmas. This year (fm 2023), the big patch came in early december, which means, they got almost a whole month more time for this patch than the previous years. 

That's 3 months.. A quarter of the development cycle of FM 23 .... I THINK!

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Domoboy23

Domoboy23

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

I’m expecting big things in this update. The fact that it’s taken so long makes me cautiously optimistic.

If we can go and find UI legacy bugs (in some cases) up to 3 previous editions of the game old, that were reported years ago and responded back with ''yes it's a bug, its been noted, thanks for raising'', I'd manage those expectations :D

Edited by Domoboy23
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angelo994

angelo994

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7 minutes ago, Domoboy23 said:

If we can go and find UI legacy bugs (in some cases) up to 3 previous editions of the game old, that were reported years ago and responded back with ''yes it's a bug, its been noted, thanks for raising'', I'd manage those expectations :D

Pointless comment. All I said was I’m choosing to be optimistic. But okay, never mind. You are right. I’m sure the update will be trash! 🤯

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Domoboy23

Domoboy23

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20 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

Pointless comment. All I said was I’m choosing to be optimistic. But okay, never mind. You are right. I’m sure the update will be trash! 🤯

I'd hoped the emoji I'd inserted at the end of the comment would've suggested it was a bit tongue in cheek.

I'm not expecting minor legacy bugs to of been corrected in a final update patch for a specific version of the game. This is probably something I'd expect to be worked on and slowly chipped away at and improved between full releases. Also time isn't indicative of success. A host of changes could've been made which went through testing fine but when released to a wider scale things are noticed. That's the beauty and scary aspect of the final patch. The longer something remains before being released it get's the benefit of longer internal testing but which therefore means less external testing on a larger scale! - Probably something which is more pertinent and relevant to the more minor patches we see pre-christmas as any bugs noticed can then be noticed and hopefully rectified before the final patch in Feb/March. Whereas the final patch is usually a final patch and even if people were to find changes negatively affected development/AI/ME it wouldn't (I don't think) then be patched again.

 I'm not at all saying the update will be trash. I'm actually very excited about it which is odd as seen as I'm finding FM23 to be the version I've most enjoyed since FM13 and don't really have many complaints bar a few minor niggly bits (yes that includes UI) and traditionally the final gameplay update this time of year is usually very good and an improvement. If anything, I'm nervous an update may ruin the ME (I love the fact you can play defensive football) I'm really enjoying or cater to the people who like east wins and demand thousands of wonderkids in the game.

 

Edited by Domoboy23
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14 hours ago, stevemc said:

I'd happily move to a monthly subscription model for FM (as an alternative option), rather than a one-off yearly payment, if it mean't more clarity and more frequent, smaller patches/releases and improvements along the way, possibly even opt-in Beta's to help with testing, there could be loads of benefits on both sides.

Spending £35-40 in October every year for a game that isn't truly long-term playable and/or at it's best until March, just feels like your are asking for negativity and pressure. IMO, possibly holding off on ME and UX/UI updates in order to bundle them in with a Winter transfer patch, seems a bit of... a waste of possible gaming time.

I'm not entirely against a subscription base model, but a few things needed to change in terms of the editor.

Every time SI adds new teams the database, it changes the teams you created on the editor. Meaning you have to adjust your kits and logo files, every time someone updated them. Large databases can be problematic. A patch is simply a chance to make a workable edit file not working.

But if you see how Adobe subscription base works, they don't constantly update their same programs. Each year there is a release of a new program with new features and changes. That is why Photoshop, for example, the 2023 version is released, it is a new program, where it uninstalls the 2022 version or older. It is basically what we have now, the difference instead of paying SI 50 pounds/euros every October/November, you pay around 5 to 10 pounds/euros every month. So internally SI, won't change its process. But it would drastically change how their finances work, perhaps that is something SI unwillingly want to do.

Edited by grade
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angelo994

angelo994

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1 minute ago, grade said:

I'm not entirely against a subscription base model, but a few things needed to change in terms of the editor.

Every time SI adds new teams the database, it changes the teams you created on the editor. Meaning you have to adjust your kits and logo files, every time someone updated them.

But if you see how Adobe subscription base works, they don't constantly update their same programs. Each year there is a release of a new program with new features and changes. That is why Photoshop, for example, the 2023 version is released, it is a new program, where it uninstalls the 2022 version or older. It is basically what we have now, the difference instead of paying SI 50 pounds/euros every October/November, you pay around 5 to 10 pounds/euros every month. So internally SI, won't change its process. But it would drastically change how their finances work, perhaps that is something SI unwillingly want to do.

Subscription model was one of the worst things to happen to Adobe / Creative suite. I think the idea that FM should go the subscription route is honestly a terrible idea in my opinion. 

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Robioto

Robioto

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There won't be any lessons learned IMO. The FM cycle of disappointment will continue, with fundamental gameplay modules left stagnant while marketing friendly fluff features are cobbled together to sell the next game.

I'm hopeful for this patch, especially how it impacts long term saves, but the sense of dejavu is massively overwhelming here.

Sorry, a miserable post, but it kind of sums up where I am with one of my favourite game series that I've been playing for over 25 years.

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forameuss

forameuss

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, blejdek said:

I think expecting big things is the right thing to do right now. Previous years first big patch was coming 1,2 days before Christmas. This year (fm 2023), the big patch came in early december, which means, they got almost a whole month more time for this patch than the previous years. 

It absolutely isn't.  Expect nothing, then you can only be impressed.  Going in with high expectations almost certainly means it'll never live up to it.  

1 minute ago, Robioto said:

There won't be any lessons learned IMO. The FM cycle of disappointment will continue, with fundamental gameplay modules left stagnant while marketing friendly fluff features are cobbled together to sell the next game.

I'm hopeful for this patch, especially how it impacts long term saves, but the sense of dejavu is massively overwhelming here.

Sorry, a miserable post, but it kind of sums up where I am with one of my favourite game series that I've been playing for over 25 years.

I'm not sure it's particularly miserable, it's largely realistic.  The thing that amazes me is all this talk of lessons to be learned this time, or how things have somehow gotten worse.  This is the same pattern that every single edition of FM (and CM before it) has had.  Release a product that's fine for the vast majority but has many issues, a small number glaring, usually to a small number of people.  Updates are craved, and when they arrive they will solve some things and leave others completely untouched.  People rage.  People moan.  People threaten never to buy again.  Autumn drifts into winter, and here comes FMN+1 and the cycle continues.

The product has been a fairly consistent 6.5 out of 10 for almost a decade now.  I'm failing to see where the surprise is.

Edited by forameuss
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2 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

Subscription model was one of the worst things to happen to Adobe / Creative suite. I think the idea that FM should go the subscription route is honestly a terrible idea in my opinion. 

The negative part of a subscription isn't paying monthly, you are just paying for one company, Multiple companies mean multiple subscription payments. Stacking up, at the end of the month you have quite a hefty bill to pay.

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forameuss

forameuss

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And the other big negative to note about subscription models is that SI already have history for providing one.  FML wasn't the land of milk and honey, and it ultimately collapsed, despite it likely bringing in a pretty decent sum of money.  Just putting it out and refusing to see anything other than fanciful positives is just wilfully ignorant.  Heart's in the right place, but still not remotely realistic.

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3 minutes ago, Robioto said:

There won't be any lessons learned IMO. The FM cycle of disappointment will continue, with fundamental gameplay modules left stagnant while marketing friendly fluff features are cobbled together to sell the next game.

I'm hopeful for this patch, especially how it impacts long term saves, but the sense of dejavu is massively overwhelming here.

Sorry, a miserable post, but it kind of sums up where I am with one of my favourite game series that I've been playing for over 25 years.

It is a model that works for SI.

The record-breaking sells of FM23, before any announcements were made, when pre-sales of FM23 started back in September or October (don't quite remember which), it confirms it is success model for them.

Trust me, when I say if this model wasn't working for them, SI team would have change to a new model.

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1 minute ago, forameuss said:

And the other big negative to note about subscription models is that SI already have history for providing one.  FML wasn't the land of milk and honey, and it ultimately collapsed, despite it likely bringing in a pretty decent sum of money.  Just putting it out and refusing to see anything other than fanciful positives is just wilfully ignorant.  Heart's in the right place, but still not remotely realistic.

Don't think the FML failed because of the subscription model itself. I think more of the nature of the multiplayer aspect of it, killed FML. But hey never played it, so don't fully know the interquencies of FML. Just the honest opinion of someone that saw it from the outside.

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forameuss

forameuss

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Just now, grade said:

Don't think the FML failed because of the subscription model itself. I think more of the nature of the multiplayer aspect of it, killed FML. But hey never played it, so don't fully know the interquencies of FML. Just the honest opinion of someone that saw it from the outside.

You're right, it wasn't that entirely, but people throw out lines about how the model automatically leads to innovation and incentive, when the one time SI have employed it, it didn't.  I don't remember them being very generous with the updates (in fact, I seem to remember the ME being largely aligned to retail FM and its upgrade schedule), aside from them pushing the big red reset button when things weren't going well (then the big black death button when things were going really badly).  

The reasons for it failing were multiple, but ultimately the way they structured the worlds exposed the weakness, and the community gleefully kicked it to death. But in writing this, I've remembered that you can attribute some blame to the model, as it led to droves of people signing up to a new gameworld, then getting bored and letting their subscriptions elapse, leaving each world pretty much empty.  I'd argue that had there been a retail model where you bought, say, a year, then that problem would have at least been kicked down the road a little, if not removed.  Those same problems will still exist in FM as subscriptions fluctuate.

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V3ntricity

V3ntricity

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Where is it? I can't believe it's not here yet. I can't sleep, eat, I can't think. Why not release it already? What's taking them so long? At the very least I hope they are busy working on some great addendums, like a ghost mode, where players turn into ghosts somehow and the office is haunted. Is that why it's delayed?  

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Major Raver

Major Raver

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I fully understand why they don't give an estimated date for release, they find a major issue, that release could be delayed by weeks.  Then they look stupid and will receive lots of negative press.  I don't though understand why last week for example they couldn't have said, "Be patient, but it won't be this week".  That way some here know to start a new game or season whilst waiting.

 

I do love all the comments of "I'm not buying it again", "that's it, I'm done with Football Manager".  What you going to play instead?  Its not like anything comes close to this, in Football manager type games.  Be patient, I'm waiting and playing CM01/02 instead, nearly getting Torquay promoted.  Its funny when you go back to a really old version what you miss from now (talking to players in game and tactical options), to what you don't miss (media stuff).

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Dreambuilder

Dreambuilder

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Posted (edited)

The head researcher of Sweden @pelleantonsson just said on twitter that they have a deadline tomorrow:

"Tomorrow is the last day I can get in transitions for the last winter update."

Note that he said last winter update. 

 

 

Edited by Dreambuilder
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