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Trusting the Process - Collectivism, Rotations & Control


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You always make it look so effortless and simple, great post. A Premier League invincible season really is impressive, and the 5-0 victory over Liverpool really stood out to me (especially since I often find them to be a real challenge). From the tactic above, do you ever find there is certain changes you’re forced to make or do you always stick to that philosophy?

Such as: 

  • Extremely short passing, strictly possession oriented (as opposed to sometimes going direct)
  • Much higher press (as opposed to sitting deeper or setting up a mid block)
  • A 3-2-5 build up shape
  • A false nine (no typical target forward, or spearhead)
  • All support duties (opposed to asking one player to play a more aggressive role)
Edited by milestobudapest
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This thread is giving me 2017-2018 @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! flashbacks. :lol: I don't know how your backline succeeded in a tactic this risky but congrats! Great content.

I don't think using wide forwards to stretch opposition in FM is achievable in a 4-3-3, but who knows, you never fail to surprise!

Edited by Halbraum
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The results are mindblowing for the first season, congratulations ! Enjoyed reading it.

I am curious, how did you manage to install Arteta as an assistent manager and how is it possible you spent nearly 300m £ for the 2nd season?

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@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!Excellent work. How did you find the tactic working against the likes of City and Liverpool. Those are a few games where my tactic comes a bit unstuck. I posted it in your other thread thinking it was more of a Pep 2011 recreation but having used it with the current Arsenal squad it seems to suit them quite well.

Another excellent player I have used as a False 9 was Pedri, when I tried a Barca playthrough. Very similar to Ødegaard in that regard.

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Thank you for the kind words, everybody :)

 

12 hours ago, gennamitico said:

did you use particular opposition instructions or individual instructions to achieve that pressing in 4-4-2 shape?


No opposition instructions. I did use them during the demo and the early release when pressing - particularly against a back three - was difficult, but never saw a need after a couple of patches.

Individual instructions were simply:

  • Tomiyasu tucking in
  • Gabriel moving wider
  • Saka high and wide
  • Smith Rowe moving into channels
  • Odegaard, Martinelli and Smith Rowe in free roles

Nothing else off the top of my head :thup:


 

11 hours ago, milestobudapest said:

You always make it look so effortless and simple, great post. A Premier League invincible season really is impressive, and the 5-0 victory over Liverpool really stood out to me (especially since I often find them to be a real challenge). From the tactic above, do you ever find there is certain changes you’re forced to make or do you always stick to that philosophy?

Such as: 

  • Extremely short passing, strictly possession oriented (as opposed to sometimes going direct)
  • Much higher press (as opposed to sitting deeper or setting up a mid block)
  • A 3-2-5 build up shape
  • A false nine (no typical target forward, or spearhead)
  • All support duties (opposed to asking one player to play a more aggressive role)


Thank you for the kind words. I agree about Liverpool. In fact, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd are all really difficult to play this year. The 5-0 was actually last game of the season, after being crowned Champions at Spurs and Liverpool had gone out in the latter stages of every tournament so morale was down and they had over-used van Dijk, Salah, Firmino and Mane so posed less of a threat than usual.

We certainly benefited from not playing in Europe; the starting team you see above didn't play a single cup game so was remained fresh throughout the season.

As for the changes:

  • Extremely short passing, strictly possession oriented (as opposed to sometimes going direct)
    • Actually the opposite; I sometimes slowed things down and became more disciplined either when holding a lead or to reserve energy when a game was won.
    • I played more directly in the cups when I had a Balogun, Nketiah, Pepe front line but tried to maintain control in the league.
  • Much higher press (as opposed to sitting deeper or setting up a mid block)
    • As above, I used possession to manage fitness levels where necessary. We managed to press intensely all season, as long as we held on to the ball when we had it.
    • Might be different next season, competing on multiple fronts.
  • A 3-2-5 build up shape
    • I toyed with 2-3-5 and 3-1-6 build up shapes, but preferred the 3-2-5.
  • A false nine (no typical target forward, or spearhead)
    • Only when Odegaard was unavailable; I'd use mostly Balogun as a complete forward.
  • All support duties (opposed to asking one player to play a more aggressive role)
    • Also no :lol: I did this with Benfica due to the generational talent of Leao but it's not something I do commonly.
    • The loss of team shape makes this much more difficult to balance

Hope this helps :thup:

 

9 hours ago, Halbraum said:

This thread is giving me 2017-2018 @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! flashbacks. :lol: I don't know how your backline succeeded in a tactic this risky but congrats! Great content.

I don't think using wide forwards to stretch opposition in FM is achievable in a 4-3-3, but who knows, you never fail to surprise!


Haha fantastic! I must say, I am really sold on playing high and wide inverted wingers.
 

1 hour ago, Kaya said:

The results are mindblowing for the first season, congratulations ! Enjoyed reading it.

I am curious, how did you manage to install Arteta as an assistent manager and how is it possible you spent nearly 300m £ for the 2nd season?


Thank you! :D

For Arteta - I must admit - I made him Assistant Manager in the pre-game editor :lol: Purely out of sentimentality. I do often keep managers I particularly like around the club somehow although there's really no practical benefit.. apart from Wenger used to be a superb Director of Football!

The £300m is a little tongue in cheek. Felix, De Jong and De Ligt are dream transfers - plus all available and interested - so I did it, but am not sure if I will actually go down that route.

The funding was £150m second season transfer budget plus £76,000,000 for Partey from Real Madrid and £46,000,000 for Xhaka to PSG. The incoming deals are obviously structured so there's even still budget left over :lol:


 

1 hour ago, poobington said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!Excellent work. How did you find the tactic working against the likes of City and Liverpool. Those are a few games where my tactic comes a bit unstuck. I posted it in your other thread thinking it was more of a Pep 2011 recreation but having used it with the current Arsenal squad it seems to suit them quite well.

Another excellent player I have used as a False 9 was Pedri, when I tried a Barca playthrough. Very similar to Ødegaard in that regard.


I think we drew away and won at home to both City and Liverpool.

City come unstuck a little bit as Football Manager never seems to translate Guardiola's tactics properly. Liverpool can be very tough. Personally I slow down possession to make them run and press more and then try to attack when space opens up as they tire.

Pedri is a superb option. Gavi also for the deeper roles. Barcelona have a wonderful squad this year :applause:
 

1 hour ago, AndersAas said:

Fantastic work once again, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!!

Would you care to elaborate how you approach training in FM22?


Thank you :hammer:

In team training I focus on general sessions:

  • Attacking
  • Defending
  • Endurance during pre-season, Tactics during season

If you open the game, grab a notepad and note down all the attributes covered then I am pretty sure everything is covered there.

This time I went fairly heavy on team cohesion and tactical familiarity during pre-season so could ease off and allocate more sessions for rest/recovery as the season kicked on.

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  • Quote

    Odegaard, Martinelli and Smith Rowe in free roles

     

You mean you gave all of them "Roam from position"?

 

Great thread btw, but that is no surprise :D

Edited by JoOSTAR
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great thread @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!! 3 games into an Arsenal save after the winter update, 2 wins and a draw using my own tactic but I think yours reflects the current Arteta tactics better than mine, so will give it a whirl!

The squad was pretty small after the transfer update so brought in Goncalo Ramos, Karim Adeyemi and Liam Delap (loan with option to buy) for depth up front, Jacob Ramsey (loan with option to buy) for midfield depth (Patino insisted on going out on loan) and then Morato as CB option and Nordi Makuele who is similar to Tomiyasu. Xaka and Lacazette were supposed to go but rejected contracts on deadline day, sold Nketiah and loaned out Cedric.

I was playing Tomiyasu as a No-Nonsense fullback which was working quite well, but like your tweaks on the FB(s)

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1 minute ago, gpassosbh said:

Glad you are back @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!... Congrats on this achievement.

I'll try something on my next save. Against better teams, do you change anything on the tactic?? Like mentality,  PI, or any other thing??

Yes I’d also be keen to see if you use this approach in the big games or whether you make any changes to be more conservative (albeit minor)?

 

Great thread as usual - your take on the game has always been the most enjoyable and relatable!

Edited by Luizinho
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This is fantastic @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!:applause:Glad you’re back and playing FM22! 
 

Curious to know if you’ve tried to use Smith Rowe in the False 9 role with Ødegaard as the No. 10  to try and replicate his real life chemistry and relationship with Saka on the right side? Arteta has said in the past that ESR can play as a ‘nine’ so it would be interesting to see if and how that works in the game. 
 

I can see Ø has the perfect attributes for the F9 role however so it makes sense. Using them as duel free 8s in a 4-3-3 could be devastating and it’s something I hope we can see Arteta deploy IRL soon! 

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1 hour ago, axelmuller said:

It certainly seems like playing Özil-ball is possible without Team Shape after all.

Seems O-zil is still using Team Shape in the same way, although you now have to change players' Duties to achieve the one that you want:

21 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Attacking team mentality combined with Support duties instruct the team to attack and defend collectively.

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Really inspiring thread!

What do you think is key for getting that much penetration without attacking duties? Specific ppms? Or do the Arsenal players have certain jey attributes? Off the ball? Teamwork? Something else?

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Amazing read (also, thanks for great links to videos with analysis). Funny thing is that everyone was making fun of "trusting the process" but now Arsenal has big chances for top-4 finish.

 

Can you share your tactic as .fmf file?

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22 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

Martin Odegaard drops deep to receive a simple pass from under-pressure Emile Smith-Rowe, dragging Eric Dier out of position. Odegaard then turns and plays a through ball into the space left behind Spurs defence for an on-rushing Gabriel Martinelli to slot home..

 

2a85cd52fbf47558be4f578200e33383.gif


..sealing the title for Arsenal at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium in emphatic style.
 

image.png.45087a6c272711689da255758c1c6d46.png


The game crowned a glorious season for Arsenal; at the end of an 18-year road to redemption.


image.png.a9264b2ee5e2879626fa48316cf8d512.png


image.png.dfd4096d10fcb11116d7d1f2b279f40c.png
 

For the first time in what seems like an eternity, Arsenal are a club on an upward trajectory. Arteta & co. have overseen a near complete overhaul of the Arsenal squad; rebuilding the club culture and instilling a clear possession-oriented tactical identity facilitated by:

  • Controlled build-up
  • Attacking rotations 
  • Organised pressing

My approach has been to implement the same style of play, using a structure that allows us to fit Saka, Smith-Rowe, Odegaard and Martinelli into a fluid attacking unit.


image.png.bca598914b3535c8fe60552685344c90.png

 

Attacking team mentality combined with Support duties instruct the team to attack and defend collectively.

Employing Martin Odegaard as a False 9 may be the most interesting decision of the set-up. It really suits his overall attribute profile; I'm surprised it's not talked about more.

  1. He has strong work rate and teamwork to lead the overall press.
  2. He's our most creative player and this set-up gives him lots of freedom.
  3. Frees up space for Smith-Rowe to play centrally, vacating the flanks for Martinelli and Saka.


image.png.0077314da7da0322e5a0d1316890a0c8.png


image.png.8ec252561fb8ea8eb314fa046ea58d73.png


 

Attacking in a 3-2-5

In possession, we use positional rotations to create a 3-2-5 attacking shape.

  • Tomiyasu plays as a Fullback (Support) with Hold Position and Sit Narrow whilst Gabriel is asked to Play Wider creating a back three.
  • Xhaka and Partey are a simple midfield pivot both holding position; Partey in the more defensive role and Xhaka the playmaker.
  • Martinelli cuts inside as an Inside Forward (Support) with Tierney overlapping as a Complete Wingback (Support) completing the front five.


image.png.64adc47f3bac039120c340fa152f3125.png


The collective ethos shows through the involvement of the entire team in the pass maps.


image.png.915da6a6be4ed05686632b127f9e66bb.png

 

The natural passing triangles in the 3-2-5 shape allow us to dominate possession with ease.


image.png.31ba611896f06bff83be3df9b7aa4542.png


..completing over 900 per passes per game over the course of the entire season (this would be ridiculous in real life, by the way ;)).


image.png.cdf55cc61904218904baf0b4153867a4.png


We build up play though our 3-2 unit at the back, who circulate possession and draw the opposition out of position; averaging around 100 passes each per match.


image.png.f2eaec10323206f0e92ea4d17570eb01.png


The front five are far more creative and clinical in the opposition third.


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Attacking five channels gives us a numerical advantage over an opposition back four.


image.png.8dd07c0c8c65b30f863cf2361a65ad81.png


Chaos ensues :hammer:


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image.png.7b1dcbc94f5798c4a308cf5fffb58a3b.png

 

Pressing in a 4-4-2

Without the ball, the makeup of the squad lends itself particularly well to pressing.


image.png.10749181aa2636c995132aa5a648bdf7.png


So we play a high line and press with maximum-intensity as a 4-4-2.


bfa44108c64c6fa416d3e576066ecdb2.gif


At times, our press even became an attacking weapon.


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The Future 4-3-3?


Some fantastic Arsenal-related tactical content has come online recently, particularly about Arteta's continued evolution toward 4-3-3. Thought it might be interesting to share.

The positional rotations from 4-3-3 into the 2-3-5 (or 3-2-5) remain the main topic of contention as illustrated here by @EricLaurie.


image.png.f2991e5ae8e221e465b4706bb9532802.png


Personally, I think Emile Smith-Rowe attacking from a deeper role suits his attribute profile wonderfully given that we would have Tomiyasu behind him.


image.png.3c39aaa9107fdf17c1aa949d841e6df3.png


Recent form of Thomas Partey is starting to turn this into a potential reality.


image.png.78d58ac0d9dfcdeac87eaa855b6fff5b.png


Really opens up can of worms on the role of a full-back in this type of system, but I think that's another topic for another day :lol:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

image.png.dcc021a7865b9d54a0a6675488c606ee.png


;)


Thank you for reading. Enjoy! :applause:

 

25 minutes ago, betondur said:

Amazing read (also, thanks for great links to videos with analysis). Funny thing is that everyone was making fun of "trusting the process" but now Arsenal has big chances for top-4 finish.

 

Can you share your tactic as .fmf file?

I too would like the filé 🙏

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Great to see a new thread by @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

This 4231 looks like a more controlled version of the famous asymmetric 424 from the Caixa thread. I know you'll probably switch to 433 but I always expect a classic overload/very fluid evolution for the 424 :D

Fantastic work as usual!

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9 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you for the kind words. I agree about Liverpool. In fact, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd are all really difficult to play this year. The 5-0 was actually last game of the season, after being crowned Champions at Spurs and Liverpool had gone out in the latter stages of every tournament so morale was down and they had over-used van Dijk, Salah, Firmino and Mane so posed less of a threat than usual.

We certainly benefited from not playing in Europe; the starting team you see above didn't play a single cup game so was remained fresh throughout the season.

As for the changes:

  • Extremely short passing, strictly possession oriented (as opposed to sometimes going direct)
    • Actually the opposite; I sometimes slowed things down and became more disciplined either when holding a lead or to reserve energy when a game was won.
    • I played more directly in the cups when I had a Balogun, Nketiah, Pepe front line but tried to maintain control in the league.
  • Much higher press (as opposed to sitting deeper or setting up a mid block)
    • As above, I used possession to manage fitness levels where necessary. We managed to press intensely all season, as long as we held on to the ball when we had it.
    • Might be different next season, competing on multiple fronts.
  • A 3-2-5 build up shape
    • I toyed with 2-3-5 and 3-1-6 build up shapes, but preferred the 3-2-5.
  • A false nine (no typical target forward, or spearhead)
    • Only when Odegaard was unavailable; I'd use mostly Balogun as a complete forward.
  • All support duties (opposed to asking one player to play a more aggressive role)
    • Also no :lol: I did this with Benfica due to the generational talent of Leao but it's not something I do commonly.
    • The loss of team shape makes this much more difficult to balance

Hope this helps :thup:

Thanks for the insight :thup: The principles of this way of playing is exactly what I want to achieve when firing up FM. I know you've outlined some of the ways theres, but I would hugely appreciate maybe a small write up on how you might deviate from the base tactic outlined above. I think when I play this sort of system, I often fall short when my team cannot penetrate. The sort of things I might see is:

  • High percentage of possession, with lots of passes between that 'back 5'
  • The 'foward 5' sitting in a very flat line, but much closer to our own half than the oppositions box.
    • These players receive the pass to feet but struggle to progress since options are usually to the side or backwards.
    • A wing back perhaps not being able to overlap due to the compression in possession

It isn't usually a player quality problem, since I'd only really try this style with a technical side.

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A question for the author of the thread: can you please tell what it is that accounts for the forward runs into space by Emile Smith Rowe if he doesn't have the 'get further forward' instruction? Is it 'move into channels'? Thanks.

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21 hours ago, jdubsnz said:

The squad was pretty small after the transfer update so brought in Goncalo Ramos, Karim Adeyemi and Liam Delap (loan with option to buy) for depth up front, Jacob Ramsey (loan with option to buy) for midfield depth (Patino insisted on going out on loan) and then Morato as CB option and Nordi Makuele who is similar to Tomiyasu. Xaka and Lacazette were supposed to go but rejected contracts on deadline day, sold Nketiah and loaned out Cedric.


Yes, it's a tiny squad. My save started before the winter update but I still decided to sell Lacazette, Aubameyang, Leno, Holding and Cedric. Without European football and putting Cup competitions on the back-burner I was able to get through the season with minimal rotation.

That said it's a good opportunity to really cement the young players in the first team and then give game time to those just outside it; Patino, Lokonga, Balogun, Nketiah, Rekik etc.

From then on the squad is a blank canvass; particularly with the returning loans. The squad is a small handful of signings away from playing almost any shape you can think of. The squad definitely needs a bit more depth for Europe though.


 

21 hours ago, gpassosbh said:

Glad you are back @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!... Congrats on this achievement.

I'll try something on my next save. Against better teams, do you change anything on the tactic?? Like mentality,  PI, or any other thing??


Not really.

Only small changes I can think of are:

  1. Occasionally using a 4-3-3 depending on personnel but I didn't post it as it wasn't properly balanced.
  2. Lowering tempo and more discipline to take control of tougher games or hold a lead.

I do like the idea of a pacey Balogun, Nketiah, Pepe attacking three as a rotation-option but needs an overlapping right-back which we don't have.


 

19 hours ago, Fantasista10 said:

This is fantastic @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!:applause:Glad you’re back and playing FM22! 
 

Curious to know if you’ve tried to use Smith Rowe in the False 9 role with Ødegaard as the No. 10  to try and replicate his real life chemistry and relationship with Saka on the right side? Arteta has said in the past that ESR can play as a ‘nine’ so it would be interesting to see if and how that works in the game. 
 

I can see Ø has the perfect attributes for the F9 role however so it makes sense. Using them as duel free 8s in a 4-3-3 could be devastating and it’s something I hope we can see Arteta deploy IRL soon! 


Actually, no. I wouldn't be particularly against the idea, but Smith-Rowe is the more dynamic player and - you can probably see in some of the goals - he's particularly effective making forward runs from a deeper position.

Similarly Odegaard is very intelligent and creative and thrives dropping into space and playing in one of the runners. Really not much in it though.


 

16 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Seems O-zil is still using Team Shape in the same way, although you now have to change players' Duties to achieve the one that you want:


I completely ignoring the label team shape these days. No idea why it's still there. It seems completely irrelevant.

 

15 hours ago, milestobudapest said:

Thanks for the insight :thup: The principles of this way of playing is exactly what I want to achieve when firing up FM. I know you've outlined some of the ways theres, but I would hugely appreciate maybe a small write up on how you might deviate from the base tactic outlined above. I think when I play this sort of system, I often fall short when my team cannot penetrate. The sort of things I might see is:

  • High percentage of possession, with lots of passes between that 'back 5'
  • The 'foward 5' sitting in a very flat line, but much closer to our own half than the oppositions box.
    • These players receive the pass to feet but struggle to progress since options are usually to the side or backwards.
    • A wing back perhaps not being able to overlap due to the compression in possession

It isn't usually a player quality problem, since I'd only really try this style with a technical side.


OK - try potentially shifting the paradigm from worrying about attacking penetration to looking at whether the team is managing to achieve sustained pressure on the opposition, with and without the ball.

The foundation of sustained pressure is dominating possession in the opposition half. In order to achieve this, you need to implement a structure which allows the team to:

  • Build-up play effectively
  • Circulate possession effectively
  • Press effectively

If you are happy the team are consistently dominating possession on the opposition half then start looking at attacking structure:

  • Attacking through 5 channels
  • Player profiles
  • Player roles

Hopefully this helps :thup:


 

17 hours ago, kandersson said:

Great to see a new thread by @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

This 4231 looks like a more controlled version of the famous asymmetric 424 from the Caixa thread. I know you'll probably switch to 433 but I always expect a classic overload/very fluid evolution for the 424 :D

Fantastic work as usual!


Yes, it's not far off :lol: Thank you :thup:

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19 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I completely ignoring the label team shape these days. No idea why it's still there. It seems completely irrelevant.

Ah, I see.

I thought you opted for Attacking Mentality w/ Support duties specifically to achieve Very Fluid shape.

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On 16/03/2022 at 12:38, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

In team training I focus on general sessions:

  • Attacking
  • Defending
  • Endurance during pre-season, Tactics during season

If you open the game, grab a notepad and note down all the attributes covered then I am pretty sure everything is covered there.

This time I went fairly heavy on team cohesion and tactical familiarity during pre-season so could ease off and allocate more sessions for rest/recovery as the season kicked on.

Do you still use broad role training or position training to cover all role attributes on players?

Do I understand you correct that during the season you use your own training schedule thats build upon only attacking, defending and tactics general sessions?

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On 16/03/2022 at 05:57, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

Martin Odegaard drops deep to receive a simple pass from under-pressure Emile Smith-Rowe, dragging Eric Dier out of position. Odegaard then turns and plays a through ball into the space left behind Spurs defence for an on-rushing Gabriel Martinelli to slot home..

 

2a85cd52fbf47558be4f578200e33383.gif


..sealing the title for Arsenal at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium in emphatic style.
 

image.png.45087a6c272711689da255758c1c6d46.png


The game crowned a glorious season for Arsenal; at the end of an 18-year road to redemption.


image.png.a9264b2ee5e2879626fa48316cf8d512.png


image.png.dfd4096d10fcb11116d7d1f2b279f40c.png
 

For the first time in what seems like an eternity, Arsenal are a club on an upward trajectory. Arteta & co. have overseen a near complete overhaul of the Arsenal squad; rebuilding the club culture and instilling a clear possession-oriented tactical identity facilitated by:

  • Controlled build-up
  • Attacking rotations 
  • Organised pressing

My approach has been to implement the same style of play, using a structure that allows us to fit Saka, Smith-Rowe, Odegaard and Martinelli into a fluid attacking unit.


image.png.bca598914b3535c8fe60552685344c90.png

 

Attacking team mentality combined with Support duties instruct the team to attack and defend collectively.

Employing Martin Odegaard as a False 9 may be the most interesting decision of the set-up. It really suits his overall attribute profile; I'm surprised it's not talked about more.

  1. He has strong work rate and teamwork to lead the overall press.
  2. He's our most creative player and this set-up gives him lots of freedom.
  3. Frees up space for Smith-Rowe to play centrally, vacating the flanks for Martinelli and Saka.


image.png.0077314da7da0322e5a0d1316890a0c8.png


image.png.8ec252561fb8ea8eb314fa046ea58d73.png


 

Attacking in a 3-2-5

In possession, we use positional rotations to create a 3-2-5 attacking shape.

  • Tomiyasu plays as a Fullback (Support) with Hold Position and Sit Narrow whilst Gabriel is asked to Play Wider creating a back three.
  • Xhaka and Partey are a simple midfield pivot both holding position; Partey in the more defensive role and Xhaka the playmaker.
  • Martinelli cuts inside as an Inside Forward (Support) with Tierney overlapping as a Complete Wingback (Support) completing the front five.


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The collective ethos shows through the involvement of the entire team in the pass maps.


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The natural passing triangles in the 3-2-5 shape allow us to dominate possession with ease.


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..completing over 900 per passes per game over the course of the entire season (this would be ridiculous in real life, by the way ;)).


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We build up play though our 3-2 unit at the back, who circulate possession and draw the opposition out of position; averaging around 100 passes each per match.


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The front five are far more creative and clinical in the opposition third.


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Attacking five channels gives us a numerical advantage over an opposition back four.


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Chaos ensues :hammer:


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Pressing in a 4-4-2

Without the ball, the makeup of the squad lends itself particularly well to pressing.


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So we play a high line and press with maximum-intensity as a 4-4-2.


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At times, our press even became an attacking weapon.


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The Future 4-3-3?


Some fantastic Arsenal-related tactical content has come online recently, particularly about Arteta's continued evolution toward 4-3-3. Thought it might be interesting to share.

The positional rotations from 4-3-3 into the 2-3-5 (or 3-2-5) remain the main topic of contention as illustrated here by @EricLaurie.


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Personally, I think Emile Smith-Rowe attacking from a deeper role suits his attribute profile wonderfully given that we would have Tomiyasu behind him.


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Recent form of Thomas Partey is starting to turn this into a potential reality.


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Really opens up can of worms on the role of a full-back in this type of system, but I think that's another topic for another day :lol:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

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;)


Thank you for reading. Enjoy! :applause:

Brilliant post Ozil! It completely reignited my hunger for the game. I'm a huge Arsenal fan and have been trying to emulate Arteta's tactics ever since not much success lately.

A couple of questions if you don't mind.

- I've always been a Positive Mentality guy with FM especially since there's ways to go before the current Arsenal squad can go toe to toe with the Liverpools and the Man City. You have yours set as 'Attacking team mentality combined with Support duties instruct the team to attack and defend collectively.' Would you kindly elaborate on that? Surely the maximum risk would result in hasty decision making and forced attacks?

- Why did you select to Overlap on the left flank when naturally, they will overlap because of the nature of WB/IF? Although, I'm not particularly sure about this.

- IRL Saka is seen as the direct runner that stays wide and runs at defenses before scoring while ESR/Martinelly combines with Tierney. Was your role choices above because of the fact the IF goes more narrow than the IW during attacking transitions?

- Was there a particular reason you went much shorter passing?

Thanks and apologies for the barrage of questions. Very inspired to dig in the save again. Thanks for stroking that fire!

Edited by markoconnell
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@MyNameisRainer - This was not a good first post on the forum. If you have any questions regarding the tactic, I'm sure you can ask it without any accusations or assumptions. Either do that, or take it up on a PM, please.

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The same tactic with the same players Ozil To The Arsenal claims 102 points with I got sacked sitting 13th in December. Can you help me understand why this happens?

Edited by XaW
Rephrased the message into a more polite one
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7 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

OK - try potentially shifting the paradigm from worrying about attacking penetration to looking at whether the team is managing to achieve sustained pressure on the opposition, with and without the ball.

The foundation of sustained pressure is dominating possession in the opposition half. In order to achieve this, you need to implement a structure which allows the team to:

  • Build-up play effectively
  • Circulate possession effectively
  • Press effectively

If you are happy the team are consistently dominating possession on the opposition half then start looking at attacking structure:

  • Attacking through 5 channels
  • Player profiles
  • Player roles

Hopefully this helps :thup:

Thanks @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!this is actually a really useful way to articulate it. I probably underestimate the effectiveness of our pressing.

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The thread I and I'm sure plenty of others have been waiting for :applause: Haven't quite cracked positional play on FM22 so I'm sure this will be a massive help.

On the principals of positional play, are there any player traits that you would consider particularly helpful/harmful in this and other positional play systems? The reason I ask is that I've just started a save and have a pretty blank slate when it comes to traits and I'm having a bit of an argument with myself about it.

Where possible I'm thinking:
LB - Anything that encourages joining the attack and staying wide
RB - Avoid attacking traits
CMs - Avoid the likes of roams from position, gets into opposition box
AML/AMC/AMR - Avoid comes deep to get the ball, teach breaks offside trap
ST - Comes deep to get ball

Across the board I know you've always been a fan of one-twos for attacking players.

On the flip side, I'm thinking it might be better to avoid too many 'movement' traits in case it pigeon holes players into certain roles and restricts tactical flexibility.

Anyone got any thoughts?

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Great post as always, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 

 

What attributes should one look for when recruiting (attacking) players to a tactic like yours?  Pace/acceleration, technique, first touch, dribbling, off the ball?

 

Also: Are there any changes in PI when using 433

Edited by Mutumba
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19 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Ah, I see.

I thought you opted for Attacking Mentality w/ Support duties specifically to achieve Very Fluid shape.


Yes, I can see why that would be confusing. It's actually unfortunate that I never got to write a thread on it but by the end of my time on FM2018 I was using Structured team shape with Support roles and playing a disciplined, collective style of football.

Over recent years I have become less attached to 'Very Fluid'; only really using it with world class players. Although it does play the best football ;)


 

18 hours ago, AndersAas said:

Do you still use broad role training or position training to cover all role attributes on players?

Do I understand you correct that during the season you use your own training schedule thats build upon only attacking, defending and tactics general sessions?


Yes, pretty much exactly as described back in the Caixa Academy thread. The only small change is that individual training now covers groups of attributes - eg passing covers vision, passing etc. rather than only one - and that you can now train Endurance which I use quite heavily.

Yes, correct on the team training - incredibly simple. I focus on those core sessions as much as possible combined with rest, recovery, building tactical familiarity and team cohesion depending on where I am in the season :thup:


 

12 hours ago, milestobudapest said:

Thanks @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!this is actually a really useful way to articulate it. I probably underestimate the effectiveness of our pressing.


Yea, it's very common to see a lack of goals and assume problems with your attack but often it'll be something else. Theoretically you should be able to get goals out of fairly weak attackers - although Pepe did still score 0 for me :lol: - if you're managing to effectively sustain pressure.


 

10 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

The thread I and I'm sure plenty of others have been waiting for :applause: Haven't quite cracked positional play on FM22 so I'm sure this will be a massive help.

On the principals of positional play, are there any player traits that you would consider particularly helpful/harmful in this and other positional play systems? The reason I ask is that I've just started a save and have a pretty blank slate when it comes to traits and I'm having a bit of an argument with myself about it.

Where possible I'm thinking:
LB - Anything that encourages joining the attack and staying wide
RB - Avoid attacking traits
CMs - Avoid the likes of roams from position, gets into opposition box
AML/AMC/AMR - Avoid comes deep to get the ball, teach breaks offside trap
ST - Comes deep to get ball

Across the board I know you've always been a fan of one-twos for attacking players.

On the flip side, I'm thinking it might be better to avoid too many 'movement' traits in case it pigeon holes players into certain roles and restricts tactical flexibility.

Anyone got any thoughts?


Yes, you're very correct across the board.

  • Always find one-twos useful pretty much everywhere.
  • Defenders train to bring the ball out of defence.
  • Correct about the right back holding position.
  • Central midfielders depends on their role, and whether they're double or single pivot
  • Gets into opposition area is quite useful for the Inverted Winger(s); I like the combination of playing high and wide but then getting into the box as a goalthreat in the final third.
  • Avoid dwells on the ball
  • I am not a massive fan of dictates possession unless the player is an elite-level playmaker
  • I train weaker foot a lot; not everyone needs to be either footed, but it's important not to have a weak foot.
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2 hours ago, Mutumba said:

Great post as always, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 

 

What attributes should one look for when recruiting (attacking) players to a tactic like yours?  Pace/acceleration, technique, first touch, dribbling, off the ball?

 

Also: Are there any changes in PI when using 433


Nearly everything actually :lol: I go for very complete players.

All attackers need:

  • Stamina, team work and work rate to press
  • Technique, first touch, passing, composure and vision

As a massive generalisation:

  • I'll use more technical (technique, first touch, passing, composure, vision) players centrally.
  • Those with better positioning play deeper roles such as deep playmaker, holding midfielder or inverted fullback.
  • Those with better off the ball movement play more advanced roles such as False 9, Attacking Midfielder, Mezzala or even Box-to-Box mid (is quite attacking, in an attacking system).

Wide players are very similar, but with more emphasis on dribbling, pace, acceleration, agility and balance to create one-on-one advantages.

These days I mostly play without an individual goalscorer so I need 4-5 players with reasonable finishing; placing shots trait can be helpful.

If it helps, I do have a few shortlisted players for a few of the roles I'd identified as gaps:

  • Right back
    • Pedro Porro
    • Tino Livramento
    • Max Aarons
  • Left-sided central defender
    • Alessandro Bastoni
    • Renan (Palmeiras)
    • Josko Gvardiol
    • Haydon Roberts
    • Goncalo Inacio
  • Left-sided holding midfielder (if sticking with 4-2-3-1)
    • Ismael Bennecer
    • Danilo (Palmeiras)
    • Fabian Ruiz
  • Miscellaneous
    • Jude Bellingham
    • Giacomo Raspadori
    • Bruno Guimaraes
    • Dominic Szoboszlai
    • Mikkel Damsgaard
    • Isak Bergman Johannesson
    • Gabriel Menino
    • Jurrien Timber
    • Ryan Gravenberch
    • Curtis Jones
    • Declan Rice
    • Joe Gelhardt
    • Fran Beltran
    • Dejan Kulusevski
    • Marc Cucurella
    • Florian Wirtz

Then obviously the likes of Bernardo Silva, Foden, Musiala, Sancho, Pedri, Mount, Gavi, Alexander-Arnold etc are excellent but out-of-reach.

I've probably missed a lot but this was my shortlist.

Eddie Nketiah is turning out frustratingly well, for Arsenal fans :lol:


 

1 hour ago, tacticaljoe said:

Brilliant post once again Ozil!

Have you considered using  "Be more disciplined" ? or will it compromise your roaming instructions'?


Yes, I will use it. Certainly in bigger games or when ahead and looking to close out a game :thup:

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23 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:


Yes, it's a tiny squad. My save started before the winter update but I still decided to sell Lacazette, Aubameyang, Leno, Holding and Cedric. Without European football and putting Cup competitions on the back-burner I was able to get through the season with minimal rotation.

That said it's a good opportunity to really cement the young players in the first team and then give game time to those just outside it; Patino, Lokonga, Balogun, Nketiah, Rekik etc.

From then on the squad is a blank canvass; particularly with the returning loans. The squad is a small handful of signings away from playing almost any shape you can think of. The squad definitely needs a bit more depth for Europe though.

 

 


 


 

So I used the tactic once and lost to Norwich 1-0. they completely outplayed us! I'll give it another whirl though

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3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

These days I mostly play without an individual goalscorer so I need 4-5 players with reasonable finishing; placing shots trait can be helpful.

 

Yeah I noticed a very equal distribution of goals between the front four, though looking at goals and especially goals per 90 minutes Martinelli seems the one closer to being the primary goalscorer (maybe he takes penalties?). It's also interesting to see that Martinelli also has the lowest number of assists ('only' 4 especially compared to 22 of opposite wide attacker Saka) and key passes per 90 minutes so he does seem a little more focused on finishing than the other attackers. Do you think this depends more on role/formation (IF vs IW; overlap left TI) or Martinelli's individual attributes/traits? Or maybe just pure randomness :D

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So, If ive understood this correct: Your RB is a fullback with instructions to tuck inside, and also hold position? So why sign players like Porro or Aarons as RB, when they like to get forward?

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, halfspace3000 said:

I noticed in the past you used "Work into the Box" instruction , is there any reason why you arent using it in FM22 ?  @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Also i hope for more threads from you this year , keep the good work :)


Actually, no :lol: Well spotted. If I'd noticed myself I'd probably have flicked it on; then again, it can't be making too much difference not to have noticed :thup:


 

22 hours ago, jdubsnz said:

So I used the tactic once and lost to Norwich 1-0. they completely outplayed us! I'll give it another whirl though


#OZILOUT :lol: Sorry for the poor result. In what way were you outplayed?


 

22 hours ago, kandersson said:

Yeah I noticed a very equal distribution of goals between the front four, though looking at goals and especially goals per 90 minutes Martinelli seems the one closer to being the primary goalscorer (maybe he takes penalties?). It's also interesting to see that Martinelli also has the lowest number of assists ('only' 4 especially compared to 22 of opposite wide attacker Saka) and key passes per 90 minutes so he does seem a little more focused on finishing than the other attackers. Do you think this depends more on role/formation (IF vs IW; overlap left TI) or Martinelli's individual attributes/traits? Or maybe just pure randomness :D


Smith-Rowe was on penalties.

Yes, Martinelli was the primary goalscorer. An inside forward with an overlapping wingback outside him is always going to score quite a lot of goals; particularly attacking the space vacated by the False 9 and with all these creative players around him. Odegaard, Saka and Smith-Rowe are all creator-goalscorer hybrids.

I was also surprised by the assists. It's unlikely to be randomness over the course of a full season. Moving into a 4-3-3 I'd actually plan to play Martinelli in a role mirroring Saka's and their attribute profiles are also pretty similar so I would expect him to add more creativity in his game. I don't see anything in his attributes or traits to explain the lower assists. Can only assume it's his role in relation to the overall tactic.

The 4-3-3 allows space for another attacking profile, meaning 5 players in that creator-goalscorer hybrid.


 

48 minutes ago, Mutumba said:

So, If ive understood this correct: Your RB is a fullback with instructions to tuck inside, and also hold position? So why sign players like Porro or Aarons as RB, when they like to get forward?


Ah apologies, I didn't explain that properly. I was looking for a rightback who could overlap as a backup to Tomiyasu as I thought it would get the best out of Pepe. I am since undecided about that as I just had a surprisingly big offer for Pepe from Inter.

I actually really like the look of Porro for the creative inverted fullback role as well; he's got great vision, technique, flair and movement.

Inverted fullbacks seem extremely difficult to find. In most cases I end up retraining a midfielder.

Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
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