Group C - England v USA Match Thread - ITV 1 7:30PM

[Crazy_T]

Regardless of how Heskley played, England would be far better off without him. They might actually try and pass the ball rather than resorting to lumping it forward.

this happens even more with crouch.

so we need to either play 4-3-3 with rooney alone, or play defoe.

[Higgzy]

Is there any official word on Milner btw? Was it fitness/illness or precautionary because of the yellow card and poor tackling? SWP was very poor i thought, would've much preferred Joe Cole.

He seemed miles off the pace for the 30 he played largely because of the illness he's had. Made a couple of rash tackles when beaten to the ball and was a liability who would have been sent-off if he'd remained on the field. As has been said, he shouldn't have started. Joe Cole in for the next game please.

[Stu Coleman]

Regardless of how Heskley played, England would be far better off without him. They might actually try and pass the ball rather than resorting to lumping it forward.

It would be the same with Crouch, and Rooney and Defoe just hasn't worked.

[Crazy_T]

and yeah, i'm not a fan but saying heskey was one of the worst players on the pitch is absolutely ridiculous.

[brett.spurs]

Regardless of how Heskley played, England would be far better off without him. They might actually try and pass the ball rather than resorting to lumping it forward.

Agreed. I think the build-up for every attack was this;

Green -> Johnson -> King -> Terry -----------------------------------------------------> Heskey

[Higgzy]

Regardless of how Heskley played, England would be far better off without him. They might actually try and pass the ball rather than resorting to lumping it forward.

Without a head to lump it to all you'll get from England is slow, laboured, sideways passing that goes absolutely ****ing nowhere. Especially in a 4-4-2.

It's pointless keeping the ball if you go nowhere with it. Look at other nations, they might pass the ball between the back-line and keep it for a bit but they'll work an opening and go for the kill. With England we'll pass it sideways, keep the ball before running out of play and lose it to a sloppy pass. There's no movement off the ball with us, and it's ****ing annoying.

[miketheheadlesschicken]

           Rooney

 J. Cole   Gerrard   Lennon


      Barry    Lampard

That looks to be the best option for England.

[Varlesh]

It would be the same with Crouch, and Rooney and Defoe just hasn't worked.

True, I get a feeling Capello is trying to make up for a lack of creativity from midfield by dropping Rooney deeper. I would prefer it if Gerrard plays behind Rooney and Cole starts on the left, let Lennon provide the width from the right and have Barry and Lampard as the 2 central midfielders.

Edit: Post above me is exactly what I'm thinking.

[Deltaroad]

Regardless of how Heskley played, England would be far better off without him. They might actually try and pass the ball rather than resorting to lumping it forward.

Not sure how Heskey is the cause of the ball being "lumped forward" More to do with the fact that it's all Green, Johnson, Terry, King, Cole Lennon, Gerrard, Lampard SWP all do.

If Crouch or Defore was playing we'll still see balls being lumped forward.

[PMLF]

By the way, it's surprising how Carlos Eugênio Simon and his assistants (also Brazilians) had such a good performance, well better than their usual performances.

[Smallen]

           Rooney

 J. Cole   Gerrard   Lennon


      Barry    Lampard

That looks to be the best option for England.

I've been saying this all along. We'd be far more effective with and without the ball

[LokedOut420]

Forgot to add that I think the USA played more as a 'team' tonight, and England were probably just a collection of individuals. Something that struck me again and not for the first time in recent years. Too many egos spoiling the broth perhaps?

[Sheer Class]

Robert Green Number One my aris

[Crazy_T]

           Rooney

 J. Cole   Gerrard   Lennon


      Barry    Lampard

That looks to be the best option for England.

I can't see how there is a better option that that. or more realistically/capello-ey it would be:

                   rooney


j. cole     gerrard      lampard      lennon


                  barry

[Cougar2010]

Yeah sorry you're right, constantly offside throughout, missed England's best chance one on one with Howard, but hey he passed the ball to Gerrard for the goal x100

Constantly offside :confused:

England as a team only had five offsides in the whole match and one of them was wrongly flagged.

I'm not a Heskey fan by any means but I think he did a decent job tonight and had he scored his chance probably would have been MOTM.

I do agree with EC though that Johnson was excellent and probably our best player overall.

Big improvement from the friendlies and better final balls could have seen us win fairly comfortably.

[Hom3r]

I'm one of the main Heskey backers and I'll admit it would be a stronger 11, but I just can't see how we'd get the best of Lampard with Gerrard and Rooney being the two creative forces going forward. Gerrard isn't fantastic on the left but he's been a goal threat with Heskey upfront as the battering ram so I'd keep that.

Barry back in, Gerrard to the left. We weren't really that bad tonight so there isn't a need for huge changes.

[dinamo_zagreb]

awesome match by England

go, Croatia, go

no kidding now

you were really bad tonight, awful performance by Rooney - totally invisible, also Lampard, he was big fail tonight

English goalies are disaster... and Gerrard cant blame Jabulani, goalkeeper badly set his hands... Seaman vs. Brazil, Robinson and Carson vs. Modrić, Eduardo and co. :thup:, and Green now

also, King is, with knees like that, totally unimportant and unable to make bigger impact for team, and his 45 minutes playing is bad for next part of the game, where England has one sub less

and there must be some changes, and I hope there would be, as I put big money on ENG to win first place in group

[hasdgfas]

I thought it was pretty obvious why Capello brought SWP on? That American winger was outpacing Milner every attack so we needed someone who could keep up with him, Joe Cole isn't fast enough so he brought SWP on.

by winger do you mean Cherundolo, our right back?

[TomHAVFC]

Constantly offside :confused:

tbf he was, we had 5 offsides in the game and Heskey was the main culprit being offside 4 times.

[TomHAVFC]

by winger do you mean Cherundolo, our right back?

, thought he was your winger :o

[Deltaroad]

Only way those formations will work is both Gerrard and Lampard support Rooney which they want. By support I mean making runs pass Rooney, playing in front of Rooney. All will happen is Gerrard and Lampard playing behind Rooney lumping forward balls to him. (Which is basically what we are doing now). Rooney cannot take on 4 defenders he isn't superhuman.

[Lermon]

might as well ask here- is it true more American fans turned up to see this match than English?

[TomHAVFC]

Apparently so, 2000 more than England. USA have taken the most fans to the World Cup according to reports.

[hasdgfas]

, thought he was your winger :o

with how he was skinning Milner I don't blame you.

might as well ask here- is it true more American fans turned up to see this match than English?

Not according to ESPN.

[GG17]

might as well ask here- is it true more American fans turned up to see this match than English?

USA officially have more fans than anyone else in the competition. Unofficially England had more than USA there tonight.

[Splendifornia]

might as well ask here- is it true more American fans turned up to see this match than English?

I think more were sold to the US, but there were shedloads more English fans tonight. Probably flawed estimates, Seffricans getting behind England, and ex-pats making up the numbers.

[Cougar2010]

tbf he was, we had 5 offsides in the game and Heskey was the main culprit being offside 4 times.

That would mean no-one else was offside during the game which is possible.

Either way I don't really have an issue with your most advanced forward being offside four times in a match.

What was most annoying was the way it happened, always coming back rather than heading towards the USA goal. You would need to look at what occurred before the offsides as well though, maybe he made runs into the channels but wasn't passed the ball before turning back.

[mkr2010]

i really cant see how england are gonna do anything in this wc, cappello is no doubt a good manager, but hes gonna stick to his favorite players in the squad regardless

SWP is horrible,Milner might aswell have not been there while he was on, King is a cripple, Cara has no pace, Heskey is heskey, he did better than expected tonite but 10 offsides and missing a sitter wont get him any more fans.

the main issue as tonight proved is the GK

Look at these stats from last season:

Green 38 Games 66 Conceded, Strangely James has the exact same record, however, Hart who has no hope of getting a game has the best record of 38 games 47 conceded.

Just shows none of this team is being picked on form

[Crazy_T]

Only way those formations will work is both Gerrard and Lampard support Rooney which they want. By support I mean making runs pass Rooney, playing in front of Rooney. All will happen is Gerrard and Lampard playing behind Rooney lumping forward balls to him. (Which is basically what we are doing now). Rooney cannot take on 4 defenders he isn't superhuman.

well that is the idea yes and I don't see why these two players are incapable of making foward runs?

it's what lampard does for chelsea every single week and he manages to rack up goals and assists. same for gerrard.

there will also be the two wingers supporting rooney aswell, especially if joe cole plays as he is the most creative.

[StevoRobbo]

Rob Green is a joke. How can he be ahead of Joe Hart judging from the firendlies? Heskey should be shot and isnt fit to wear an England shirt. We sent home the 2nd highest english scorer in the premier League for a crap Candy Man look-a-like who does a lot less than Crouch does and can't even score.

Why play Milner on the left and Gerrard in the middle. All through qualifiers we have been unstopable with Gerrard cutting in from the left. Why not play Milner in the middle with Lampard and Gerrard on the left.

If Capello is intent on playing Gerrard and Lampard in the middle together then why not put Joe Cole on the left? He has played ther for years and is a great player. Miles better then Milner ans Shaun Wright Phillips in the that position.

If Rooney is the man they are building the team around then why not play the same has Man Utd has done for most of the season. 4-5-1 with the two wide men as inside forwards with the wing backs overlapping. That way we could have a Midfield of (right to left) of Gerrard, Milner*, Lampard, Carrick and Joe Cole. Gerrard and Joe Cole can push up alongside Rooney with Johnson and Ashley Cole overlapping. Milner and Carrick sitting back while Lampard gets forward to lurk and make late runs into the box just like he does for Chelsea.

Why do the FA pay about £6 million a year to a Manager when any fan could do a better job at picking a team.

If England must insist on playing a 4-4-2, why is Crouch not starting. The guy is 8ft tall. You cant defend against him. He does everything Heskey can do and he can actually score goals. People say he can only score against crap teams but we are in a team with 3 relatively crap teams so why not play him so he will score and get us through the groups. Also you can't fault his record. Going from England Games/Goals or Starts/Goals, Crouch is probably the best Striker for England in the squad.

How can nobody else see this. Especially the man the FA are paying to keep us mediocre.

Something needs to be done quick.

* Milner out for Barry once he is fit.

[pouncer]

Green is the best goalie there you MUGS!

:cool:

-

ITV are so bad. I hope they receive a heavy fine for this from OFCOM, appalling stuff. Shameful. That's now three times in the last three years that fantastic sporting events have been ruined by clumsy production. The San Marino Grand Prix cut to adverts while Schumacher and Alonso were having a captivating battle. Then the Merseyside Derby. Now this. Ugh.

Fortunately the pub I was in had standard definition, thank goodness. It was terrific, a fantastic atmosphere in there. I feel all right wing now, sat in my England shirt after all that. It was brilliant though.

Not so much the match. I went crazy when the first goal went in. Heskey's assist was superb, he cemented his place in the squad with that alone. Afterwards it was typically up-and-down, until the Green howler. When the shot left Dempsey's foot I held my breath for a second, then relaxed. He had it covered. Easy. I looked at my pint and then glanced up at Green preparing to clear the ball upfield. But he hadn't. It seemed to happen in slow motion, the ball crept in. Embarrassing.

Second half was OK, the wingers came into it a bit more but we didn't take what we'd created.

I love Heskey, I'm firmly in his camp but I was thinking earlier: How many other teams would drop a player with Crouch's goals to caps ratio, and replace him with someone of Heskey's? Not that it matters. Heskey was OK tonight. You'll all be cowering in your seats when England return having won the World Cup through a Heskey hattrick. He'll be knighted.

Oh, and he better keep Green for the Algeria game. It's very important - any kind of rash dropping could effect the whole squad. I think Green will cope with it, he made a good save afterwards which suggests he has reasonable mental strength.

[RedRom3000]

honestly (after some logical thinking) is there any point to this corden show?

So, is the show following a similar format to the old school Fantasy Football shows? I gave this a miss, because i can't stand Corden but didn't mind watching the old Fantasy Football shows. Not sure why they didn't get Baddiel and Skinner to reprise their roles this time round?

I wanna know more about redrom's vomiting in Crouch's toilet story

Basically, was out with a few friends one night (one of whom has known Crouchie for years, since well before he was famous. Well his family and Crouch's family go back a long way. Think they sort of still keep in touch regularly, but due to Crouch's career he obviously doesn't see him personally much like before).

Well on our night out, we randomly bumped into Crouch who was with a couple of his mates in a pub in Ealing, London - he was playing for Liverpool at the time. Anyhow, they got chatting and we ended up heading back to Crouch's house. I'd had a fair amount to drink and a dodgy kebab as well and ended up vomiting in his toilet. I felt like a bit of a tit for having done so and pretty bad that i had placed my mate in a bit of an akward situation.

Whilst we were both cleaning it up, Crouchie came up and noticed there was a bit of a commotion going on, but was pretty cool about it, and didn't flip at all. Nice guy.

Although looking back i think it might have been somewhat of a blessing in disguise, as the incident made me quite wary so as not to get involved in any other misdemeanours whilst in his house. Which in actuality, given that i had been drinking quite possibly prevented me from making a very risque comment about Abby Clancy, and which yourself being an ex-viewer of the old-school neighbours thread, im sure you'll agree would have been potentially fatal and certainly a lot harder for Crouch to tolerate.

[pouncer]

PS: What happened to King and Milner? I couldn't hear.

[aggressive minor]

Heskey was good, typical performance from him really. Did what he is in the team for, but great chance to win the game from him.

Worst player on the pitch was SWP by miles, was shocking.

[brett.spurs]

PS: What happened to King and Milner? I couldn't hear.

King did his groin, Milner was out of his depth.

[TomHAVFC]

Milner might not have played well but do you not think it was because he's been in bed for most of this week with a virus? not because he was out of his depth.

[Nad]

I thought the biggest problem of all tonight, which I can't see any mention of, was vacating the midfield. Gerrard and Lampard were constantly too far ahead of the defence when we got the ball, which is why the only out ball every time was the hoof up to Heskey. Therefore we never kept possession and the play was disjointed - 54% possession against a USA side that were mainly defending. Not good enough.

Whether or not Gerrard and Lampard can play together is another question, this is elementary tactics. If you're going to build the play and control the tempo the central midfielders both need to be within 10-20 yards of the defence to offer options to play from back to front. If you watch the match again nearly every time the defence were on the ball there was a 30 yard gap to the midfield so no easy pass. Occasionally Gerrard or Lampard would come short but the other would be way up the field, so even when they got the ball, they had no easy passing option except back to the defence.

Getting Barry back won't solve this, this is a tactical thing. Capello needs to get his finger out, surprising lack of criticism going his way, that and recent performances were no different to anything under Sven but not many people are questioning what Fabio is doing.

[aggressive minor]

I disagree there Brett, much more to the virus than anything else.

[pouncer]

King did his groin, Milner was out of his depth.

After all the knee complaints, that's typical to get a groin injury. I guess he's out of the Algeria game then?

Milner was just taken off then? Interesting. I heard someone mention 'stomach bug', so assumed Milner was about to **** himself big time and got taken off.

[brett.spurs]

Well whatever was up with Milner he certainly wasn't doing well.

[roseboy64]

Was actually laughable that Milner started. Was sick most of the week and then he shows up in the starting lineup. Waste of a space as he was always going to be struggling.

[Deltaroad]

well that is the idea yes and I don't see why these two players are incapable of making foward runs?

it's what lampard does for chelsea every single week and he manages to rack up goals and assists. same for gerrard.

there will also be the two wingers supporting rooney aswell, especially if joe cole plays as he is the most creative.

In theory it works it practice it doesn't. I don't think any of the midfield players support Rooney or Heskey after the first goal. Seem like the plan was get the ball to Heskey or Rooney and let them both play off each other. There were times when Lampard and Gerrard went forward and started playing direct but they just couldn't pull it off.

[Crazy_T]

I thought the biggest problem of all tonight, which I can't see any mention of, was vacating the midfield. Gerrard and Lampard were constantly too far ahead of the defence when we got the ball, which is why the only out ball every time was the hoof up to Heskey. Therefore we never kept possession and the play was disjointed - 54% possession against a USA side that were mainly defending. Not good enough.

Whether or not Gerrard and Lampard can play together is another question, this is elementary tactics. If you're going to build the play and control the tempo the central midfielders both need to be within 10-20 yards of the defence to offer options to play from back to front. If you watch the match again nearly every time the defence were on the ball there was a 30 yard gap to the midfield so no easy pass. Occasionally Gerrard or Lampard would come short but the other would be way up the field, so even when they got the ball, they had no easy passing option except back to the defence.

Getting Barry back won't solve this, this is a tactical thing. Capello needs to get his finger out, surprising lack of criticism going his way, that and recent performances were no different to anything under Sven but not many people are questioning what Fabio is doing.

I agree with this, but I think there is no doubt that barry will solve it as he generally comes deeper than those two and looks to pick balls up from defenders. he isn't a great player on his own but he is vital to the overall team play - much better than shoving lampard and gerrard together. obviously it will work if we play three in midfield, with a proper holding player (I know barry isn't, but positionally and role wise he is for england).

[champa]

Back from pub, absolutely disgraceful stuff from Rob Green, he should be ashamed of himself. Shambolic stuff, we were all over them the whole game. Only reason we didn't get 3 points = rob green, fact.

[StevoRobbo]

Im sorry but whoever says Green made a good save in the second half was clearly watching a different game to me. If im on the same page here, I take it you mean the save at the near post that he touched onto the post.

If that is the case then Green is the luckiest keeper in the world. The ball was straight at him but once again he was in the wrong position ans didnt get a strong enough hand on it. This caused it to slide of his gloves and hit the inside of the post. It was a terrible save and lucky not to concede again. The guy is a joke. Even Paul Robinson had a better seasin than him but he loses his place to a bobble on the pitch.

[aggressive minor]

Back from pub, absolutely disgraceful stuff from Rob Green, he should be ashamed of himself. Shambolic stuff, we were all over them the whole game. Only reason we didn't get 3 points = rob green, fact.

Here we go *rolls eyes*

[why?]

Capello needs to get his finger out, surprising lack of criticism going his way, that and recent performances were no different to anything under Sven but not many people are questioning what Fabio is doing.

Let's be fair, that performance was better than anything Sven served up in 2006 by a very long way.

As the tournament progresses we won't be lining up 4-4-2 against very strong sides, they'll simply play between the lines and dismantle us. Tonight though, other than a unforeseen goalkeeping error we did more than enough to win the game, just simply too wasteful with our finishing and final balls.

It's absolute madness to be pointing the finger at anyone much after 90 mins. Typical English attitude of hyping everything up to an unsustainable level and then the crushing disappointment of a draw (a draw!). We nearly always get better as tournaments progress and, despite our obvious limitations we will do this time too.

[Cougar2010]

Back from pub, absolutely disgraceful stuff from Rob Green, he should be ashamed of himself. Shambolic stuff, we were all over them the whole game. Only reason we didn't get 3 points = rob green, fact.

Do you never make a mistake at work then?

The difference is you don't let 60m people down when you do.

[Philip Rolfe]

England pass completion

Green 27/39

Johnson 33/53

Cole 38/52

Terry 50/68

King 12/15

Gerrard 36/61

Lampard 41/56

Milner 3/3

Lennon 23/26

Rooney 22/38

Heskey 17/24

Crouch 3/4

SWP 16/24

Carragher 18/24

[StevoRobbo]

Here we go *rolls eyes*

whats wrong with that. Its spot on. Rob Green is a joke