Group C - England v USA Match Thread - ITV 1 7:30PM

[Baptista_8]

Ad break incident?

[Martin Allen]

average performance really, no need for panic but need to play better if we want to avoid the normal struggle to the quater final then get knocked out by a better team.

Didn't get the commentators praise of Heskey tonight, must have got caught offside at least 5 times and for a player who doesn't need to be on last mans shoulder to try and break offside trap using pace pretty unacceptable, also missed the sitter in the second half, Hope Crouch starts instead of him next game or we go 4-5-1 with Barry back in.

Only other issue is Carragher, not got enough pace as was shown when he was at fault for the chance when Green pulled offf decent save in second half, if King isn't fit enough to play should have Dawson or Upson out there

[Baptista_8]

Ah so it was Rob Green's fault we drew today.

Nothing to do with the fact we cannot score any goals?

Yes

...

[DanGLiverpool]

Ad break incident?

ITV HD cut to an advert for Hyundai just before Gerrard scored, and returned to the game whilst he was celebrating, for the second time in 16 months:thdn:

[Martin Allen]

oh and Rob Green's made hidious mistakes in the past aswell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWdexUsc3A4

[Baptista_8]

Glad I was watching it in the pub then normal ITV, shocking mistake

[Crazy_T]

We can, and at some point theres no doubt that we will. Just because of one game, where in my opinion, on the whole we played pretty well, doesnt mean that the whole system we have at the moment has to go out of the window. On tonights evidence I'd say what we were playing was a 4-4-1-1, Rooney at times was VERY deep, sometimes even in the middle of Gerrard and Lampard. I think, given how Heskey performed this evening, that the formation that Capello chose was pretty spot on. I think Rooney was possibly a little nervous and grew into the game, he didnt look like his usual self until the last 10 minutes, and even then it was a shade on his usual performances. I honestly think that we were playing well in the first half until the USA equalised, and then, to be honest, we were in shock until half time. I think it could have been a very different game if it were not for that goal (or at least the manner in which it was scored).

Against Algeria and Slovenia a 4-4-2 formation may be more suited to getting a result. 'Poorer' teams tend to cope a lot less better with pace and trickery, something we have an abundance of with Lennon/Cole/SWP. It may be something as simple against these teams to stretch them out wide and just keep feeding the wingers. Another thing about tonights game, Townsend and Jim Rozenthal were saying they were surprised at how narrow the pitch was, which may not have suited us entirely.

well I live in hope.

I'm not saying tonight was a disaster or anything, and it's not a reaction on one game because i've been advocating a change for a while. we played fairly well yes, but the problems are very clear. the issue in midfield will hopefully be sorted by barry.

I do agree simple things like athlete wingers will work against poorer teams but I am thinking further ahead or wider, as in against much better teams and the future. yeah we can play two up front and an unbalanced midfield against weaker teams and get away with it, but against top teams, we aren't going to win. and if we want to be as good/better than teams like spain then we need to change something.

also i'm just not a fan of hoofing it up to a big guy upfront when we run out of ideas. we have plenty of creative players and they are just wasted if we're pumping it up to crouch and heskey all the time. again, not something likely to work against better teams.

[why?]

I swear people aren't reading.

4-1-4-1 or 4-5-1 does not mean we can't play at a high tempo, nor does it mean when I say positionally we could play like spain mean that we have to turn into a team playing short intricate passes all game.

Was this to me? I sense it was. I am reading mate, you want us to mirror Spain's formation but you accept we aren't capable of copying their passing style.

I'm not even disagreeing with you particularly, i agree that we should (and believe that we will) move away from 442 further into the competition because i doubt Capello is naive enough to go into games against quality opponents with such a inflexible formation. I do worry though that the reality with England is more men in midfield = more sideways passes, which then become backwards passes, back to the keeper and hoof. We've all seen that a million times before.

Anyway, tired now and meh, lets hope Capello finds a happy medium that we can make some progress with.

[Raybouldinho]

For all the doom merchants...think of it this way, if we'd have played Algeria and Slovenia already and then drawn this game, would things be as bad? We have played the most difficult team in the group and could/should have won. A freak goal has denied us. The performance was at times very good, at times very average. It is important to remember it is the first game of the tournament. I advise any of you who are completely up in arms to watch the Uruguay v France game yesterday and to some extent the Argentina v Nigeria game earlier. France were woeful, Argentina were great to watch for the first 30 minutes, but very wasteful in front of goal and Nigeria could have nicked a point. It is very unlikely that whoever wins the tournament is going to be in the best form in their first game. Everyone was swooning over Argentina 4 years ago in the early stages (after THAT goal they scored in the group stages) and their campaign fizzled out.

[Crazy_T]

I'm not even disagreeing with you particularly, i agree that we should (and believe that we will) move away from 442 further into the competition because i doubt Capello is naive enough to go into games against quality opponents with such a inflexible formation. I do worry though that the reality with England is more men in midfield = more sideways passes, which then become backwards passes, back to the keeper and hoof. We've all seen that a million times before.

perhaps, but it's something the manager (supposedly one of the best in the game) has to get across to them.

you're right that many people see five in midfield as some kind of defensive move that means we can't pass forward like normal or have to be conservative or something (ending with hoofing). but it's a problem starting right down at youth level anyway, as with the whole technique thing, but something has to change. and I realise it's a gradual thing, but we have to start somewhere.

oh anyway, not doom and gloom, we played fairly well and we'll get through the group.

[cool dude]

Capello deserves some of the blame in my opinion, 2 years on and what is really noticably different from when Mclaren was in charge? To be honest, I actually though we played slightly more cohesive football under Mclaren, but still its more or less the same old tactics and players. Look at Capello's results against bigger teams we've faced, albeit in friendlies - we have always been the poorer side - Spain, France, Brazil. Today, USA (all credit to them) tactically outclassed us, they marked our talisman Rooney out the game completely and fair play to them for it, it was great play on their behalf.

On a rant now, Heskey should never have been at the World Cup, and anyone who has legit watched West Ham this season will tell you Rob Green has been really poor half the time. Players are in this side on reputation alone - Rio Ferdinand never deserved to be captain, nevermind a guaranteed place in the starting 11 which is what the captaincy brings. In my opinion we were lucky for him to get injured. A player like SWP playing the majority of the match, who by the end of this season was warming the bench for a team who only managed to make the Europa League in Man City, is just absolutely ridiculous - and we rely on a player like Lennon who has the flair and tricks, obviously doesn't have the discipline to play at this level. Capello's decision to remove Milner early can be interpreted as strong willed, but to me it was indecisive - he moved the team's formation about often in tonights game, Gerrard was all over the place and it wasn't a good thing. He's had 2 years to sort this team out, and it looks like everything has been decided at the last minute, which to me is why I believe Milner was subbed early.

I don't wanna seem like I'm a Capello hater, 'cause I like him, and I like some aspects of his management of England (even though I believe national teams should be managed by someone from their own nation), but I think he has been poor in the run up to the World Cup, and if we don't pull of 2 wins against these minnows now it will be a disgrace

[GG17]

People thinking that playing 451/4141 would encourage us to play like Spain? It really wouldn't. For a start we are not good enough to do that and nor would a 451 be dependant on us playing like that.

Lets be honest, we don't have any real proper footballers in our midfield. Maybe apart from Cole. I love Lampard and to be fair to him he and Cole are probably the best at keeping the ball in our midfield but Gerrard specifically seems to believe that every pass has to be a killer one. So seeing as dropping him is a no go, and changing our style to encourage some football is a no go, I honestly believe its bad management that we don't stick him off Rooney which would allow him to be attempting decisive passes in an area where it would not get in the way of keeping the ball. Infact it would allow him to play quick one twos with Rooney and passes out wide. Just let him run riot around Rooney, who'd be aloud to play in his Manchester United role more as a poacher (Which Capello keeps banging on about getting players to play like they do for there club, well let him play in his position then!). It may restrict Lampard slightly but he's good enough and the most intelligent enough to pick and choose his runs with Barry sat beside him.

However its almost certain Gerrard will be stuck out left again and Heskey will continue, because he apparently brings the best out of Rooney. Brilliant.

[BigRoboCrouch]

English people,dont be so pessimistic on England's WC future.If you want to win a WC you need to see wats wrong and wats good about your team,and that better happen in the group stage.I'm sure Capello will find the best mix of players for England in the next matches....cmon,you will finish 1st in the group anyway.

And do NEVER forget that to win a WC you need to be fit in the last games,not in the 1st one.

[Crazy_T]

People thinking that playing 451/4141 would encourage us to play like Spain? It really wouldn't. For a start we are not good enough to do that and nor would a 451 be dependant on us playing like that.

are you incapable of reading simple words? no one is saying that.

jesus.

[Zvonimir Boban]

Capello deserves some of the blame in my opinion, 2 years on and what is really noticably different from when Mclaren was in charge?

England are playing in a tournament instead of watching it on TV?

Capello's decision to remove Milner early can be interpreted as strong willed, but to me it was indecisive - he moved the team's formation about often in tonights game, Gerrard was all over the place and it wasn't a good thing.

That must be Capello's fault, nothing to do with Gerrard being ill-disciplined positionally?

[PMLF]

And do NEVER forget that to win a WC you need to be fit in the last games,not in the 1st one.

If you are not fit in the first ones (as is, fitter than your opponents), and end up being eliminated for that reason, then you won't need to worry about the last ones...

[GillsMan]

Wtf was wrong with Carragher? He looked like he was suffering withdrawls from heroin? Sweating profusely after about 5 minutes, terrible performance from a massively average (at best) player. An utter, utter liability. I'd be infinitely more worried about him starting again than Green tbh.

[BigRoboCrouch]

If you are not fit in the first ones (as is, fitter than your opponents), and end up being eliminated for that reason, then you won't need to worry about the last ones...

Yeah sure,eliminated by Slovenia,Algeria and Usa......lol

[PMLF]

Yeah sure,eliminated by Slovenia,Algeria and Usa......lol

Losing these points against the USA may cause you to play against Germany in the other round and then you'll regret not having beaten the Americans.

And you shouldn't underestimate your opponents anyway.

[pele10]

i just lol at the heskey played well people, he win loads of headers where the USA wanted him to win, rarely did he win one that counted. after 50/60/70 caps still fat frank and gerrard still cant play together. it was like watching liverpool play tonight just hump the ball forward and someone will get near.

Carragher should have been sent off when he is there is a joke

Heskey could not get into our sunday league team the only striker that gets picked not to score goals

Lampard what does he do?

Gerrard goal then just keeps giving the ball away

everything was boooooooom hit it long

[MrDiCanio]

Just got in from a world cup day of fun, and without reading 20 pages of this thread I'll say one thing, as someone who's seen Rob Green play 40+ games in the flesh this season; he is not England's biggest concern right now.

On the wings we were awful. Milner's 30 minute replacement spoke for itself, SWP and Lennon's deliveries were dreadful all game long. Neither can deliver a ball as good as Nani or Giggs do for United, if they could Rooney's England record would be magnificent. They're both so indecisive on the final ball its embarassing.

Heskey's link-up play was wonderful, probably our best player, but the fact that he cant last 90 minutes says a lot about him as a player, especially as hes not particularly mobile in the first place. If its a guaranteed substition, dont start him in the first place imo.

Our biggest problem is centre back. Terry is good, wether you like him or not. King isn't fit, wether you like him or not. Carragher is woeful.

Lampard and Gerrard doesnt work. Everyone with a football brain can see this, its not even a mystery. They are attacking midfielders. A team needs balance, and with them together in the middle there isnt any. With a Barry/Essien/Mascherano/Gattuso/Diarra/Gilberto Silva/Busquets in the team, Dempsey wouldnt have been able to shoot from that distance. If it had gone top corner, the blame would be fully on Gerrard/Lampard for letting him go, and it should still be imo. Obviously Green should have held it, and 99,999 times out of 100,000 he will, but that shot shouldnt ever be allowed to be made.

And even if it was a screamer, we had a solid half a dozen chances which should have been converted. Heskey's chance was embarrassingly easy. I am overweight and woeful technically, but I'd have scored it and been embarrassed about how easy it was. SWP had a simple chance too. Lennon had about 10 yards of space, with the goal gaping, and decided to smash it into the melee of players.

So as I said, without reading this whole thread: Green was not the issue. Error or not we should have had 3 or 4 goals, and with adequate wingers we should have had double figures.

[pele10]

i should say if my keeper does what an England keeper does he won't be playing for a long time

[pele10]

green should be hung like a northern Beckham was but wont happen.

how many more suppose world class managers can't see the gerrard and lampard can't play together

[pele10]

Error or not we should have had 3 or 4 goals??????????

when should we had 3/4 goals i thought we were lucky at 1-1

[Raybouldinho]

MrDiCanio obviously not a West Ham fan then. The goal is Green's fault mate, accept it. Everyone else has. Lack of closing down is no excuse when a ball is coming at average pace along the ground from 25 yrds. Your defence/midfield can't block EVERY shot from outside the box that is on target, any keeper is going to have to make a 'regulation' save now and then. I suppose you'd say Carson wasnt at fault against Croatia at Wembley a few years ago.

I dont disagree with you about the fact that we could have won the game anyway if we'd have created more/stuck our chances away, but a point I've already made is that up to the point when USA equalised we looked calm, assured, threatening when we went forward and comfortable. After the goal, we were completely shellshocked. If USA would have scored a wonder goal or from a set piece or something, we wouldnt have been. The manner of the goal and the magnitude of the error, in my opinion, completely paralysed us up until half time. If we hadnt of conceeded in that manner, we might have gone on to score another before half time. Its all 'ifs and 'buts', I know, but thats the truth of the matter.

[BigRoboCrouch]

Losing these points against the USA may cause you to play against Germany in the other round and then you'll regret not having beaten the Americans.

And you shouldn't underestimate your opponents anyway.

Look,im italian,so i dont know what the english people think about this,but if you think that your nation can win the WC then you cannot fear of playing Germany in the next round.Germany,Brazil,Argentina,Netherlands:sooner or later you are gonna face them,and if you want to win the WC you need to win every game past the group stage.

It is not about underestimating your opponents,its about being confident in your team.There are no easy matches anymore in the WC as all the teams run a lot and are well organized,but honestly if you are England,Italy,Brazil,etc,you respect everyone but you have to be confident in your team finishing 1st in a group of average to decent teams,and being capable to beat the best teams of the world on the pitch.

[pele10]

when England scored we never looked like scoring again

we couldn't string two passes together

[swfcrule4eva]

Wtf was wrong with Carragher? He looked like he was suffering withdrawls from heroin? Sweating profusely after about 5 minutes, terrible performance from a massively average (at best) player. An utter, utter liability. I'd be infinitely more worried about him starting again than Green tbh.

Carragher didnt start did he?

[PMLF]

Look,im italian,so i dont know what the english people think about this,but if you think that your nation can win the WC then you cannot fear of playing Germany in the next round.Germany,Brazil,Argentina,Netherlands:sooner or later you are gonna face them,and if you want to win the WC you need to win every game past the group stage.

It is not about underestimating your opponents,its about being confident in your team.There are no easy matches anymore in the WC as all the teams run a lot and are well organized,but honestly if you are England,Italy,Brazil,etc,you respect everyone but you have to be confident in your team finishing 1st in a group of average to decent teams.

I assumed you were English because of your username, anyway, there is a difference between being confident in your team and taking victories against "lesser" teams for granted. England will be heavy favorites against Algeria and Slovenia as like Brazil will be against North Korea, Argentina in their remaining group games, etc... but that doesn't assure victory for them.

And regarding Germany, surely it's better to avoid them in the Round of 16, it doesn't mean your fear them or anything, but it's better to have an easier way to the final than a tougher one.

[Pangaea]

Just got in from a world cup day of fun, and without reading 20 pages of this thread I'll say one thing, as someone who's seen Rob Green play 40+ games in the flesh this season; he is not England's biggest concern right now.

As horrible as that mistake was, I actually agree with you.

England isn't a team. You don't see good collective movement, players opening up space for others and all the stuff good teams need to do break down good defensive teams. The right wing was nice, but deliveries horrible. Left wing doesn't exist - once again.

And for the millionth time, Gerrard and Lampard just doesn't work in the same midfield. It's unfortunate to have to put one of them on the bench, but the England team would do better, be more balanced.

That said, England should have won the match. USA were poor, and only had a couple of really good chances. England should have scored 3 goals or more today. You just can't waste chances like that at this level.

Hopefully they'll be able to play themselves in form and start acting more like a team and not just 11 players. That is what Italy, Germany and Brazil are so good at.

I do want England to do well, despite the usual unrealistic hype-up, but I must admit I laughed out loud when that shot went in...

[bell]

Decent performance, but disappointing result for me.

I feel we done OK and lost to one single horrible blunder. I have never been a fan of Green really. He is prone to this type of error and I thought his continued presence as first choice was a always a huge gamble.

As for the performance itself. Heskey did his job well, but I feel playing him as the last man leave us a bit toothless upfront. Barry can't get back soon enough. It means we can then play Lampard further forward, and Gerrard behind Rooney. Poor Wayne looked genuinely lost playing at the holding role after his out and out striker role for Man Utd this season.

Defensively we were good I thought. Johnson was my MOM, he did what Lennon should have been doing, Cole seemed a little bit muted though.

Did well, but didn't quote have enough up front and didn't quite have enough in goal either.

[pele10]

easy to look good when you have 10-15 shots to save a game he only had 2 tonight and was a fault with one

[Raybouldinho]

That said, England should have won the match. USA were poor, and only had a couple of really good chances. England should have scored 3 goals or more today. You just can't waste chances like that at this level.

I dont think the USA were 'poor', I think thats very unfair. I think they lacked a bit up front when Donovan was roaming around (Altidore is just horrendous) and maybe they are a little weak in defence (although we only managed one goal past them and they have an excellent goalkeeper). There were patches in the first half when they kept the ball well, at times a lot better than we did. They have some considerable talent in the team and seemed technically sound. I fully expect them to make it to the next round where they will be a difficult team to come up against for Germany/Serbia/Australia, however the respective groups pan out.

[bell]

Carragher always sweats like a mentalist BTW. He permanently looks on the edge of a heart attack. I assume altitude wasn't doing him any favours either.

[pele10]

one word on Carragher why?

[cool dude]

People criticising Carragher are knee-jerk morons, he is a fantastic defender, if it wasn't for him and Reina this season you can bet Liverpool would be much worse off than the sorry state they're in right now

[Woodmansee]

All goalies make mistakes, Green has made very few for west ham.

The assist from Heskey was good but fact he was offside four times, and missed a sitter took away from anything else he did in the game. The reason Rooney didn't see enough of the ball is because they kept lumping it forward to Heskey. People have said in this thread Heskey linked up great. If he linked up so great, why didn't Rooney see the bloody ball untill he started coming deep?

[Wasma]

Regardless of how Heskley played, England would be far better off without him. They might actually try and pass the ball rather than resorting to lumping it forward.

and most importantly might actually score with a better striker too

[Gordon Comstock]

I dont think the USA were 'poor', I think thats very unfair. I think they lacked a bit up front when Donovan was roaming around (Altidore is just horrendous) and maybe they are a little weak in defence (although we only managed one goal past them and they have an excellent goalkeeper). There were patches in the first half when they kept the ball well, at times a lot better than we did. They have some considerable talent in the team and seemed technically sound. I fully expect them to make it to the next round where they will be a difficult team to come up against for Germany/Serbia/Australia, however the respective groups pan out.

altidore worked his socks off today and did more than fine.

[pele10]

did Carragher not say he didn't care about England?

[Raybouldinho]

altidore worked his socks off today and did more than fine.

Hes still completely crap though, I've seen enough of him last season to make that judgement. Buddle looked a lot more lively/capable when he came on.

[Jeebs]

some of this thread makers hilarious reading. especially milner apparently being out if his depth?

heskey wasn't ****, he wasn't great either. average after englands goal. same with gerrard. glen johnson by far the best english player, and i hate johnson. nice to see carragher looking terrible too. shame ledley king doesn't have a knee.

as for green, it was a howler, yes, but i think he needs the opportunity to bounce back from it.

[Gordon Comstock]

Hes still completely crap though, I've seen enough of him last season to make that judgement. Buddle looked a lot more lively/capable when he came on.

last season anyone playing for that pathetic excuse of a hull team would've looked lacking.

altidore is good and will be great. he is our best option up top easily.

[Jeebs]

did Carragher not say he didn't care about England?

wanted to concentrate on his club career a la scholes, and said that he didn't fancy staying on just to earn an extra 10 or so caps, as he knew he'd always be back-up to rio and terry.

[Raybouldinho]

as for green, it was a howler, yes, but i think he needs the opportunity to bounce back from it.

I dont get that at all, can someone explain it to me please? Why does he deserve a chance to bounce back from it? There are two more than capable goalkeepers in the squad waiting to come in and take his place who havent completely ****ed anything up. Why should he get another chance to redeem himself at the expense of the other two?

[pele10]

People criticising Carragher are knee-jerk morons, he is a fantastic defender, if it wasn't for him and Reina this season you can bet Liverpool would be much worse off than the sorry state they're in right now

lol have you been to games this season Carragher at the heart of liverpools defence and ended up 6th or 7th in the league he showed his true colours tonight slow donkey prob only there to sell a book

[pele10]

wanted to concentrate on his club career a la scholes, and said that he didn't fancy staying on just to earn an extra 10 or so caps, as he knew he'd always be back-up to rio and terry.

Scholes didn't want to take anyone's place that had played all the games

Carragher returns to be back up to earn an extra 10 caps or so

says it all to me

[MrDiCanio]

MrDiCanio obviously not a West Ham fan then. The goal is Green's fault mate, accept it. Everyone else has. Lack of closing down is no excuse when a ball is coming at average pace along the ground from 25 yrds. Your defence/midfield can't block EVERY shot from outside the box that is on target, any keeper is going to have to make a 'regulation' save now and then. I suppose you'd say Carson wasnt at fault against Croatia at Wembley a few years ago.

I dont disagree with you about the fact that we could have won the game anyway if we'd have created more/stuck our chances away, but a point I've already made is that up to the point when USA equalised we looked calm, assured, threatening when we went forward and comfortable. After the goal, we were completely shellshocked. If USA would have scored a wonder goal or from a set piece or something, we wouldnt have been. The manner of the goal and the magnitude of the error, in my opinion, completely paralysed us up until half time. If we hadnt of conceeded in that manner, we might have gone on to score another before half time. Its all 'ifs and 'buts', I know, but thats the truth of the matter.

The fact I said that I saw Green 40 times this season might have been a hint

I'm fairly sure I did say it was a goalkeeping error, and we have to accept that, but its pointless vilifying him and blaming the fact that we didnt win on a goalkeeping error when we should have a) easily defended the chance. it came from nothing. if Gerrard/Lampard are going to play together, one of them needs to track the man in the hole, in this instance Dempsey. They didn't, he hit a speculative shot.

Second half we still went forward with such presence though, so it wasn't as if the whole team had been shellshocked. The amount of times the ball went wide, only to be wasted, was embarrassing. There were a lot more attacking errors than there were goalkeeping, but they wont be focused on because its easy to make the goalkeeper the scapegoat. It happened with Seaman, it happened with James, it happened with Robinson, and it will happen with Green. Its cringingly poor, but The Sun culture loves a scapegoat, and Robert Green will be tomorrows.

If you count the errors we made in the final third (****ing awful crossing from SWP and Lennon, Lampard/Gerrard going for the same ball, dreadful finishing from Heskey, poor movement from everyone.) they would outnumber the keeping errors 10 to 1. Green will be scapegoated, because of the nature of the fickle english media and fan, but its just a shame that people cant see the game as a whole. SWP and Heskey both had embarrassingly easy chances, so much so they should have apologised for finding so much space, but absolutely wasted them. But neither miss will be focused on because its easier to make Green the scapegoat. Probably makes a good pun too. 'Green-sy does it' or something else equally **** poor.

[Jeebs]

I dont get that at all, can someone explain it to me. Why does he deserve a chance to bounce back from it? There are two capable keepers waiting to come in and take his place who havent completely ****ed anything up? Why should he get another chance at the expense of the other two?

perhaps not in this tournament, barring james and hart conceding howlers too. i meant in the future, as some quarters of the media will no doubt call for him never to play for england again.

[MrDiCanio]

I dont get that at all, can someone explain it to me please? Why does he deserve a chance to bounce back from it? There are two more than capable goalkeepers in the squad waiting to come in and take his place who havent completely ****ed anything up. Why should he get another chance to redeem himself at the expense of the other two?

Surely you're joking?

James isn't nicknamed calamity by coincidence, and Hart hasn't been in any sort of high pressure game where mistakes will be focussed upon. To call Green the only keeper of the three to ever '**** anything up' is just ridiculous, I actually thought you were better than that.