Group C - England v USA Match Thread - ITV 1 7:30PM

[Jeebs]

so he returns to be back up to earn an extra 10 caps or so

pretty much.

[Woodmansee]

I bet Green will bounce back and play good in every game. England can't concede a goal and become shell-shocked as people put it.

[Raybouldinho]

Green will be scapegoated because he made a massive error which directly cost us the goal which in turn meant we drew 1-1 instead of winning 1-0, all other things ignored. Its not rocket science, thats the simple way that most people will look at it. Yes, chances were missed and other players made mistakes, but they didnt directly result in us conceeding a goal. Thats the joy of being a goalkeeper, he's not the first and he wont be the last to be blamed or vilified for making such a massive error. Although I think vilified is a bit of a strong term to use, he'll be blamed, but I doubt he'll be vilified (that term is reserved for things like Beckham in '98)

I think he should be dropped though. If he'd have been England number 1 for 2 years and has masses of experience I'd be more inclined to give him another chance. The fact is theres very little between the three keepers in the first place and theres no definitive 'number one'. As I've just asked in a previous post, why should he be given another chance to redeem himself when theres two other keepers waiting to get theirs? He's had his chance and messed it up.

[Raybouldinho]

Surely you're joking?

James isn't nicknamed calamity by coincidence, and Hart hasn't been in any sort of high pressure game where mistakes will be focussed upon. To call Green the only keeper of the three to ever '**** anything up' is just ridiculous, I actually thought you were better than that.

See my last post, you've taken what I said and twisted it. I meant he's had his chance and ****ed it up. Yes James has made mistakes in his career, all goalkeepers do, and Hart lacks experience, but my point is that Green has been given the nod, on this occasion, and he has ****ed it up. I'm not saying he's completely rubbish, or that he should never play for England again, I'm saying he's one of three very good goalkeepers and he happens to be the one who started this game and made a massive mistake costing us a goal and therefore its time to give another one a chance.

[Woodmansee]

If people shouldn't be given a chance to redeem theirself, David James wouldn't be playing football for England or at club level.

[MrDiCanio]

So James hasn't messed his chance up countless times before? Think back to the game against France, or countless others when he has supposedly wasted his chance. You're saying it as if there are 2 uncapped 20-somethings hoping for a scrap of opportunity.

And with regards to the first paragraph: Heskey and SWP both wasted simple chances which directly resulted in us not taking a 2-1 lead. They might have been at the other end, but they most certainly did result in us not having a one goal advantage, just as much as Green did. It might not be as headline worthy, but apologies for that. You are genuinely talking like Piers Morgan here, its quite bizarre.

I'm not defending Green, noone could. It was a dreadful mistake in the biggest tournament in the world. But bullying him into embarrassment would ruin his entire career and confidence, and as our preferred number one keeper that's quite clearly not the way to react, if we want to proceed as a squad.

[PMLF]

I think it would be awful for the team's morale if Green was benched only because of that mistake (as bad as it was). The other players would all be afraid of lose their places and so too afraid of risking making mistakes.

More than one game, it's the consistency of his performances for the national team that should matter. If he generally does all right, then there is no need to replace him.

[pele10]

as SAF says howard is a great keeper but at man united you could have one shot to save in 90 mins at everton lots of saves because of the number of shots no one remembers his shockers

hence james failed at liverpool

[Raybouldinho]

If people shouldn't be given a chance to redeem himself, David James wouldn't be playing football for England or at Club level.

Completely different circumstances. When club goalkeepers make mistakes they are often given another chance because their understudy is either inexperienced or quite clearly not as good. If you look at Manchester United earlier on this season, they had three very capable goalkeepers (although Edwin Van Der Sar was injured), when Foster messed up, Sir Alex had no hesitation in replacing him with Kuzscack (sp?). Whereas a team like Portsmouth, if James makes a mistake, his understudy is nowhere near as high profile or capable and therefore James has a chance to redeem himself.

We are talking about three goalkeepers in a squad for a short-term tournament where there are only a maximum of 7 games. These three goalkeepers have all been respective number 1's at their clubs this season. They are proven at Premier League level and are in direct competition with each other for the same spot in the team. The only one who really has an advantage is James in that he has more experience. Green has been given the nod today and messed it up. We know we have two more than capable keepers waiting in the wings (unlike in many club situations) who are already proven at exactly the same level as Green. So why not give them a chance, instead of giving Green another chance?

Another thing to consider is, if he sticks with Green and he messes up again - 1) Green's international career will be completely over, 2) Capello will be criticised for sticking with him, 3) he could cost us qualification in top spot, from the group at all or even cost us in the knockout rounds.

[pele10]

i think it would be great for team morale if England sent him packing, this bloke earns a fortune and can't save a ball that is straight at him like i've said at sunday league you have the pitch to blame.

if my keeper does that the morn he knows he wont play for a long time

[MrDiCanio]

But Ray; surely if you're going by the whole 'One Chance Saloon' scenario, James has already had his?

"So why not give them a chance" is just what you said. Has James not had enough chances? We know what hes like. A good enough keeper who makes high profile mistakes, and has some fitness worries. I addressed it in my last post and I'm sure you'll get to it eventually, but I dont really get why you're acting like everyone has a clean slate, but only to a point that suits your agenda.

[MrDiCanio]

i think it would be great for team morale if England sent him packing, this bloke earns a fortune and can't save a ball that is straight at him like i've said at sunday league you have the pitch to blame.

if my keeper does that the morn he knows he wont play for a long time

Heskey earns a fortune and couldnt score a chance when he was one on one 20 yards out. He hit it straight at the keeper.

Blame him for our every failure too, yeah?

Same with SWP btw, his chance was just as simple.

[Woodmansee]

I see your point now, and you make a very good argument, but I don't agree it should be that way.

Would you say Hart is proven at Premier League level?

You said if Green messes up again his international career will be over. Green is 30, the chances of him being at another world cup is very slim.

[Raybouldinho]

So James hasn't messed his chance up countless times before? Think back to the game against France, or countless others when he has supposedly wasted his chance. You're saying it as if there are 2 uncapped 20-somethings hoping for a scrap of opportunity.

And with regards to the first paragraph: Heskey and SWP both wasted simple chances which directly resulted in us not taking a 2-1 lead. They might have been at the other end, but they most certainly did result in us not having a one goal advantage, just as much as Green did. It might not be as headline worthy, but apologies for that. You are genuinely talking like Piers Morgan here, its quite bizarre.

I'm not defending Green, noone could. It was a dreadful mistake in the biggest tournament in the world. But bullying him into embarrassment would ruin his entire career and confidence, and as our preferred number one keeper that's quite clearly not the way to react, if we want to proceed as a squad.

Taking a goalscoring chance is different to costing a goal though. It is a 'chance' at goal. Making a mistake which costs a goal, when it should never be one, is a lot worse than not taking a chance. Over the course of a game there are many goalscoring opportunities, usually to more than one player. There are a lot less goals which are as a result of one particular mistake by one defender.

You say he's our preferred number one keeper? Well we all agree, I think its fair to say, that theres not much between all three of them, in fact opinion is VERY divided. So how much does one keeper have to mess up before you give another one of the guys a chance? Can you answer me that? And try to imagine they are all West Ham players

[Woodmansee]

You say he's our preferred number one keeper? Well we all agree, I think its fair to say, that theres not much between all three of them, in fact opinion is VERY divided. So how much does one keeper have to mess up before you give another one of the guys a chance? Can you answer me that? And try to imagine they are all West Ham players

To turn that question around, every time a goalie makes one mistake, you replace him next match?

[pele10]

great point Ray... SAF has 38 games to try different people hence one big mistake and ya out tonight green has shown he isint a top level keeper top 4/6 he's a shot stopper at lower league

[Raybouldinho]

But Ray; surely if you're going by the whole 'One Chance Saloon' scenario, James has already had his?

"So why not give them a chance" is just what you said. Has James not had enough chances? We know what hes like. A good enough keeper who makes high profile mistakes, and has some fitness worries. I addressed it in my last post and I'm sure you'll get to it eventually, but I dont really get why you're acting like everyone has a clean slate, but only to a point that suits your agenda.

No one has a clean slate at all. Thats not what I am saying. My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that there is not even enough room for a cigarette paper between these three keepers. As I've already said, if Green had 30+ caps and had been number 1 for 2/3 years and even if this was the second mistake he'd made in 2 months, I'd be saying stick with him. The fact is, he's never been a 'regular' number 1, no one has really...but he's been given a chance over the rest of them and he's messed it up. He has nothing over the other two now, he has nowhere near enough as experience and whilst he has more PL experience than Hart, he doesnt have that much more at International level.

When things havent been working on the right side of midfield, Capello has had no hesitation in substituting/dropping players. Walcott isnt even in the squad. Did he do THAT much wrong? Did SWP/Lennon/Milner do loads more than him? Its all about opinions about who should have been on the plane etc. My point here is that if we're honest there is nothing between some of the players in other positions and Capello has no hesitation in chopping and changing things around, why should GK be any different when we have three very similar ability GK's and one of them has made a massive error?

[pele10]

Heskey earns a fortune and couldnt score a chance when he was one on one 20 yards out. He hit it straight at the keeper.

Blame him for our every failure too, yeah?

Same with SWP btw, his chance was just as simple.

lol watch football mate or play it you might have an understanding of the game

[Raybouldinho]

Would you say Hart is proven at Premier League level?

Hart has had an excellent season at Birmingham City (which pains me to say being a Wolves fan), arguably much better than the season that Green has had. But I understand why Green has been given his chance ahead of Hart, and tbh, overall I agree with it. I'm not a Green-hater.

You said if Green messes up again his international career will be over. Green is 30, the chances of him being at another world cup is very slim.

Keepers can play well into their late 30's. Look at James!

[Woodmansee]

Keepers can play well into their late 30's. Look at James!

Yea but like I said very slim, hell people don't even want him at this world cup lol.

[Woodmansee]

lol watch football mate or play it you might have an understanding of the game

The fact you made it personal shows you lack understanding of the game.

[MrDiCanio]

But Ray my point is this:

You're saying theres nothing between the three keepers, so a Green mistake means he should be hung, drawn and quartered. But James has made similar mistakes in the past too, and obviously has been given further chances at international level. I agree there hasnt been much between them at club level this year, so you have to decide them on their other credentials. Prior to this game: James/Green/Hart in order of experience, Hart/Green/James in order of reliability/unlikeliness of mistakes.

To say after todays game 'Green made a mistake therefore someone else should be given a chance' when David James has made countless high profile mistakes is such a bizarre comment to me. If youre suggesting Hart get a chance then sure, in my opinion he should have played 180 minutes of friendly just to see how he did, because we all know what the other two are like.

I'm really trying to leave West Ham bias out of it, because I'm a big fan of both Hart and James too. Joe Hart will be an England number 1 for a very long time, but for me hasn't proved it consistently enough to deserve the #1 jersey yet. James has fitness issues (as is to be expected at his age), and has done enough earn the 'Calamity James' moniker over the years.

I'm not for a second calling Green perfect, I'm just asking you look at the whole team and not perform the inevitable 'LETS ALL BLAME GREEN FOR OUR FAILURES'.

As for the whole chances debate, Heskey should have scored that chance. He played brilliantly all game so I'm not criticising his inclusion, I'm simply saying he should have scored. Just as much as Green should have saved it. Even after Greens mistake, it would have been 2-1 were it not for a monumentally awful shot from Heskey. Watch it again. It was right at Howard. It's just as bad an error at this level as Greens was IMO, but its so much easier to point the finger at the keeper unfortunately.

[MrDiCanio]

lol watch football mate or play it you might have an understanding of the game

Yeah you've rumbled me, I never watch football

[nattai]

I am sorry, but that was fricken hilarious last night. Reminded me so much of Kalac against Croatia.

Really interesting to see what happens next. If the two dropped points means that first place in the group will be decided on goal difference between the US and England...which it well might...and england miss out...only to play Germany in the 2nd round...that miss may take on mythical proportions.

Or it could ultimately be rendered meaningless. Either way, this group just got a hell of a lot more interesting than if England had been able to grab an easy 3 points.

[Woodmansee]

Ray asked how many mistakes before you change the goalie. I would say give him at least once chance per tournament. A lot of times people perform better after making a mistake.

To back up Dicanio. Gordon Banks said on that cheesy show, every player makes mistakes except when you're the goalie the ball goes in the back of the net.

[pele10]

You're saying theres nothing between the three keepers, so a Green mistake means he should be hung, drawn and quartered

press tried to kill beckham was it west ham fans that hung him????

Gary Lineker, who described Beardsley as "the best partner I could ever have". Rooney says " i want to play up front on my own" says everything about Englands forwards

as for the goalkeepers green looks good in a very poor team, james could not hack it at a big club then plays a level below and looks ok hart never let england down and did well at a mid table team this season

[MrDiCanio]

Yeah and I do understand your point Ray, that a keeper's mistake does lead to a goal. But when you're presumably of the level of football understanding to take in the full 90 minutes with reasonably analysis, you can't blame Rob Green for us dropping 2 points this evening. So many players had so many chances to make amends and they didn't. If the midfield/attack were as good as they threatened to be, the Green error would have been a mere drop in the ocean.

[pele10]

The fact you made it personal shows you lack understanding of the game.

will hand my coaching badges in on monday as you know best

[Woodmansee]

will hand my coaching badges in on monday as you know best

You has badge!

[TomHAVFC]

Yea but like I said very slim, hell people don't even want him at this world cup lol.

Very slim? I'd say the majority of keepers now play on well into their mid-thirties.

[Woodmansee]

Very slim? I'd say the majority of keepers now play on well into their mid-thirties.

Slim he will be playing at the next world cup, considering his age, mistakes, and because of other goalies.

[pele10]

You has badge!

try it you might learn something

[TomHAVFC]

Ah okay, misread it then. Yeah this is definitely James's last WC.

[MrDiCanio]

You're saying theres nothing between the three keepers, so a Green mistake means he should be hung, drawn and quartered

press tried to kill beckham was it west ham fans that hung him????

So easy to stereotype. It was West Ham fans that ran on the pitch against Millwall but I'm clearly not a hooligan. It was a few West Ham players that scored the goals/made the performances that won the World Cup final in '66, but Upson clearly isn't Moore.

Gary Lineker, who described Beardsley as "the best partner I could ever have". Rooney says " i want to play up front on my own" says everything about Englands forwards

Don't really understand what point you're trying to make here. I didn't for a second say Heskey should be dropped for his error. I was merely saying that Green wasn't the only one to have a score-changing moment

as for the goalkeepers green looks good in a very poor team, james could not hack it at a big club then plays a level below and looks ok hart never let england down and did well at a mid table team this season

You obviously havent watched all three all season to make these comments, but what I will say is this: Hart hasn't had the chance to let England down yet. Like I said earlier, every goalkeeper that gets a spell in the team gets ruined by the press because of an error. Keepers make errors, its life. David Seaman was amazing but his England career will be defined by one error.

I even broke my responses down for you to make it blindingly obvious what I'm saying. Please at least try to understand.

[MrDiCanio]

will hand my coaching badges in on monday as you know best

Shall I resign as a researcher on FM too then because as you said, I dont even watch football

[pele10]

oh no not a west ham fan saying they won the world cup again

[pele10]

Shall I resign as a researcher on FM too then because as you said, I dont even watch football

agreed:thup:

[MrDiCanio]

oh no not a west ham fan saying they won the world cup again

Brilliant response. I said 'that scored the goals/made the performances in the world cup final'

Geoff Hurst hat trick and Martin Peters goal, as well as Bobby Moore captaincy in a 4-2 win suggest that West Ham players did in fact score the goals in the World Cup Final. Did Peters/Hurst not score the goals? Twisting words is clealy too much fun for you, when you're unable to make a reasoned response.

Anyway its a moot point, I was just illustrating your blindingly poor villification of West Ham fans.

From now on I'll assume that everyone with pele in their name talks absolute rubbish, yeah? Seems an equivalent judgement.

agreed:thup:

Witty, stinging retort. We've found this generations Wilde!

[Raybouldinho]

You are completely overreacting to what I have said previously in the thread.

I do not totally blame him for the draw, I believe that if we hadnt have conceeded in the manner that we did, that the game would have been completely different. As I've already said, a wonder goal, or goal from a set piece (where a defender fails to mark someone and track their run) would have had us back at 1-1 but it wouldnt have had the effect that goal did. In the hypothetical set piece situation I've just created, one player would have been just as culpable as Green is in the goal we actually conceeded, but it would not have affected the team in anywhere near the same way. In this respect, I blame him for the way we performed up until half time, because I believe we were completely shocked by what had just happened.

In relation to other players missing chances, namely SWP and Heskey, I think its all relative. If either would have missed an open goal from 1 yard I think thats comparable to Green's mistake. Now we've all seen that happen on these really funny DVD's that come out just before Christmas, usually introduced by Ian Wright or Rory McGrath. Players who miss these chances are blamed and vilified just as much as keepers who make massive mistakes like Green this evening. When chances similar to those that Heskey and SWP had are missed, they are more similar to a goalkeeper getting a hand on it...but not as much as they should and the shot goes in anyway. They are just an afterthought. Football is football, the media are the media and fans are fans. Where theres obvious blame, one player will be blamed. Is that right or not? Who knows. Anyway I digress.

As for the whole 'drop him or dont drop him' argument we've got ourselves into. I am not a Green-hater. I have already stated that I actually agree with Green starting against the USA (if there are doubts over James' fitness). Overall though, in my opinion there is nothing between the three available keepers we have and before today, I would have said James/Green/Hart, purely based on experience. If James isnt fully fit, start Green. Green started, and has made a massive mistake. Now if I believe James would have been ahead of him anyway in the pecking order, if James is fit to face Algeria, he comes in anyway. The bigger question is what do you do if he isnt fit and you have to choose between Green and Hart alone. I'd say you have to pick Hart and give him his chance (in what shouldnt be too much of a challenge for him personally and us as a team). Why risk Green making another mistake? Now he has made a mistake, why should Hart be keep waiting any longer? If Gerrard or Lampard or Terry have a bad game, its a bad game and we move on and they are more than likely to play next time. These are experienced regular first team players for England. Look at the wings and things are very different. Right wing we havent had a regular starter since McClaren thought it wise to get rid of Beckham post WC2006. Main reason being that when people have had their chance, they havent taken it, and the manager has then looked elsewhere. Why should Green being replaced by Hart be any different from Lennon replacing Walcott or SWP replacing Lennon or whatever?

In some ways, blaming him for the result is something that gets put on the back burner for me. I am not too disappointed in the result, it could have been a lot worse, and the performance was actually quite encouraging. It gets put on the back burner because we are in a tournament where every game is massive. He's made a mistake and there will be even more pressure on him next time around. There is someone more than capable to come in and take his place so why not do that and take the spotlight off him. Its all about the next game and the next result. Would I now be happier if Green is in goal v Algeria or if its Hart? As long as James is still unfit, it has to be Hart for me. No place for sentiment in football.

[eldeniro]

oh no not a west ham fan saying they won the world cup again

Clearly trolling on purpose to be honest

[Raybouldinho]

Ray asked how many mistakes before you change the goalie. I would say give him at least once chance per tournament. A lot of times people perform better after making a mistake.

He's had once chance and made a mistake? What if he doesnt improve? Can we afford to take the risk?

To back up Dicanio. Gordon Banks said on that cheesy show, every player makes mistakes except when you're the goalie the ball goes in the back of the net.

One of the oldest clichés in football, but still true. It doesnt make any difference to anything really though, its kind of stating the obvious.

[Woodmansee]

You are completely overreacting to what I have said previously in the thread.

I do not totally blame him for the draw, I believe that if we hadnt have conceeded in the manner that we did, that the game would have been completely different. As I've already said, a wonder goal, or goal from a set piece (where a defender fails to mark someone and track their run) would have had us back at 1-1 but it wouldnt have had the effect that goal did. In the hypothetical set piece situation I've just created, one player would have been just as culpable as Green is in the goal we actually conceeded, but it would not have affected the team in anywhere near the same way. In this respect, I blame him for the way we performed up until half time, because I believe we were completely shocked by what had just happened.

Well its good experience for England to be shocked and learn how to come back from it if they are going to win anything.

You are completely overreacting to what I have said previously in the thread.

In relation to other players missing chances, namely SWP and Heskey, I think its all relative. If either would have missed an open goal from 1 yard I think thats comparable to Green's mistake. Now we've all seen that happen on these really funny DVD's that come out just before Christmas, usually introduced by Ian Wright or Rory McGrath. Players who miss these chances are blamed and vilified just as much as keepers who make massive mistakes like Green this evening. When chances similar to those that Heskey and SWP had are missed, they are more similar to a goalkeeper getting a hand on it...but not as much as they should and the shot goes in anyway. They are just an afterthought. Football is football, the media are the media and fans are fans. Where theres obvious blame, one player will be blamed. Is that right or not? Who knows. Anyway I digress.

The fact they didn't create a 1 yard chance to miss says more.

[pele10]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pele10

You're saying theres nothing between the three keepers, so a Green mistake means he should be hung, drawn and quartered

press tried to kill beckham was it west ham fans that hung him????

So easy to stereotype. It was West Ham fans that ran on the pitch against Millwall but I'm clearly not a hooligan. It was a few West Ham players that scored the goals/made the performances that won the World Cup final in '66, but Upson clearly isn't Moore.

Gary Lineker, who described Beardsley as "the best partner I could ever have". Rooney says " i want to play up front on my own" says everything about Englands forwards

Don't really understand what point you're trying to make here. I didn't for a second say Heskey should be dropped for his error. I was merely saying that Green wasn't the only one to have a score-changing moment

as for the goalkeepers green looks good in a very poor team, james could not hack it at a big club then plays a level below and looks ok hart never let england down and did well at a mid table team this season

You obviously havent watched all three all season to make these comments, but what I will say is this: Hart hasn't had the chance to let England down yet. Like I said earlier, every goalkeeper that gets a spell in the team gets ruined by the press because of an error. Keepers make errors, its life. David Seaman was amazing but his England career will be defined by one error.

I even broke my responses down for you to make it blindingly obvious what I'm saying. Please at least try to understand.

i understand, i was asking if it was west ham fans that hung beckham

as for the rest i've never watch football.. i don't know what error Heskey did to be dropped so don't know what you're on about

[pele10]

Clearly trolling on purpose to be honest

trolling lol 2400 posts in 8 year 3000+ in a year

[MrDiCanio]

Ok, well I obviously misunderstood you earlier as I interpreted it as you criticising Green for the 1-1 draw. So I apologise for that

What I will say though, is if you bring in Hart, Green can pretty much say good bye to his international career. The same happened to Robinson after the bobble incident. I know its because their errors lead to goals, but I think goalkeepers are unfairly pressurised. As I pointed out before, every number 1 we've had for the last 10 years has made errors and been embarrassed over them. What happens when Hart makes an error? It's inevitable, as players are humans, and humans make mistakes. Do we then look to the next 20 year old hot shot? Or do we bring back the much maligned Green or (as has happened post Robinson) James?

[TomHAVFC]

trolling lol 2400 posts in 8 year 3000+ in a year

lol lol lol lol lol lol

wtf has that got to with anything?

[MrDiCanio]

Pele10's lack of vocabulary and understanding of commonly used terms makes a conversation very difficult to hold. Sort of think it's not worth the bother at this point.

[pele10]

Ok, well I obviously misunderstood you earlier as I interpreted it as you criticising Green for the 1-1 draw. So I apologise for that

What I will say though, is if you bring in Hart, Green can pretty much say good bye to his international career. The same happened to Robinson after the bobble incident. I know its because their errors lead to goals, but I think goalkeepers are unfairly pressurised. As I pointed out before, every number 1 we've had for the last 10 years has made errors and been embarrassed over them. What happens when Hart makes an error? It's inevitable, as players are humans, and humans make mistakes. Do we then look to the next 20 year old hot shot? Or do we bring back the much maligned Green or (as has happened post Robinson) James?

i know what you're saying but for me its hart he had a great season and made errors i just think green is a no.3 for England at best same as foster

[eldeniro]

yeah, I agree

@mrdicanio

[mlyons]

Hes still completely crap though, I've seen enough of him last season to make that judgement. Buddle looked a lot more lively/capable when he came on.

Who doesn't look crap playing for Hull?