David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

Stupid question:

To put it bluntly, is STEAM offline mode stable?

Will it allow people to literally install Steam, download the game, switch it to offline mode as soon as I am done with the download, and never effect my game or my computer? (minus the account being hacked, etc.)

If someone on here from SI or SEGA says yes, then I'll buy it.

If not, then I won't.

Simple as that.

Cheers,

MinneapolisJon

Staff Writer, www.fm-view.com

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When was the day I stopped using steam? When I got a pc like console and only bothered turning that on for Fm20xx.

Half-Life was on my 360, so is Portal...you get the picture.

it was great to just have an average pc to run FM because I have used steam from the start and while a good client based software it is clunky, resource hungry and blocks the user from that fm immersion.

I'm not even sure I'll bother buying FM2012 at all, I have been with you for 15 years (15 profitable years for you) and this attitude toward customers shows the level of greed you have is placed higher than customer immersion and satisfaction; Im sure youll see 'small' profits again as you sit on the top of the game chart but its unlikely that you'll be getting my money, I'll be saving it for better offerings such as Skyrim, Rage, Barman and Battlefield.

Thanks for choosing US and not your wallets.

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My question is will you be making the game cheaper on steam?, say £19.99 that would be a fair price IMO.

Thank you

As far as I'm aware, retailers choose their own prices.

I have no actual issue with Steam, but I would like to thank the number of SI and Sega representatives in this thread who have tried to answer the questions thrown at them.:applause:

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SEGA will regret this decision, I'm afraid. I honestly think they will turn many of their regular costumers to piracy. Instead of tackling the problem, they'll make it bigger. A very, very bad decision.

does that mean you would rather steal the game than use steam? If most of the "loyal" customer of FM think the same way it paints a very bad picture of society.

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The cost of the game via digital steam in theory should be cheaper, but we pay the same as boxed version?

49€ you could put the game at an affordable price for a digital download!!!

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it was great to just have an average pc to run FM because I have used steam from the start and while a good client based software it is clunky, resource hungry and blocks the user from that fm immersion.

steam right now on my machine without FM running is using up 107,468kb, resource hungry, please.

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When was the day I stopped using steam? When I got a pc like console and only bothered turning that on for Fm20xx.

Half-Life was on my 360, so is Portal...you get the picture.

it was great to just have an average pc to run FM because I have used steam from the start and while a good client based software it is clunky, resource hungry and blocks the user from that fm immersion.

I'm not even sure I'll bother buying FM2012 at all, I have been with you for 15 years (15 profitable years for you) and this attitude toward customers shows the level of greed you have is placed higher than customer immersion and satisfaction; Im sure youll see 'small' profits again as you sit on the top of the game chart but its unlikely that you'll be getting my money, I'll be saving it for better offerings such as Skyrim, Rage, Barman and Battlefield.

Thanks for choosing US and not your wallets.

Skyrim and Rage are both steamworks like FM12.

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Stupid question:

To put it bluntly, is STEAM offline mode stable?

Will it allow people to literally install Steam, download the game, switch it to offline mode as soon as I am done with the download, and never effect my game or my computer? (minus the account being hacked, etc.)

If someone on here from SI or SEGA says yes, then I'll buy it.

If not, then I won't.

Simple as that.

Cheers,

MinneapolisJon

Staff Writer, www.fm-view.com

Yes, until (for a few different reasons, not really sure why) steam suddenly decides it needs to be online for you to log into it. It's not a massive problem if you have an internet connection, and steam isn't an intrusive program, it's actually good.

The one thing it isn't however, is piracy-proof. Honestly can't even comprehend why it's being put forward as some sort of saviour, when the only games which are more difficult to crack are those which need additional ONLINE anti piracy/cheating methods (such as connecting to the individual companies servers to verify things) once you get through the steam login

I don't even know why i'm going on, they won't change back because they won't even be aware of the number of people pirating it

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Seems a bit disingenuous to say it's a matter of piracy where in reality it's more of an issue of trying to sell more copies. How is making the game harder to buy meant to draw more people to it? I assume the aim is to get people to buy the game rather than to make less people pirate it. Or at least it should be.

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A question: STEAM will give us extra beneficts or features when we buy the game?????

I don't like the decision, but, i understand the point of view. It's a no-piracy measure. But a lot of people in the world play CS via Steam and don't have the original game. It's not a big deal go for that. All the games in the world, programs, etc, could be cracked. The companies can't accepted this, but this is the reality.

For me a good way for go against that is expanded the worldwide sales of the FM Boxed version. In Brazil we haven't this. Why?

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The cost of the game via digital steam in theory should be cheaper, but we pay the same as boxed version?

49€ you could put the game at an affordable price for a digital download!!!

Someone has already posted a link in this thread where the game can be ordered for less than £20!

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Steam is on in my PC also and it uses only 15.256 KB.

I really could not understand the people who will stop buying Football Manager just because they hate Steam. Is it really easy for you to give up FM?

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Although I am not a regular user of these forums, I do play the FM series religiously. However, I have since cancelled my pre order of fm 2012. I have read your post and this thread and have made a number of replies in bold below.

Sorry you have just lost another customer.

Hi all

I know this an emotive subject but there are a few claims being made on posts here that need clarifying a little:

Firstly the reason for asking genuine consumers to activate via Steam is purely combating piracy. No money changes hands between SEGA and Steam. People saying it will not combat piracy are not in possession of the facts that those who have made the decision have. We all know that unfortunately it wont cure piracy, but it will, we believe massively reduce it this year.

Can we see the facts that led to this decision please? If not will I be able to obtain them with a freedom of information request? Also after the release of the game will you update the forum as to whether steam has “massively reduced” pirate copies?

This is not done to pave the way for digital only releases. My personal belief is that day is coming to gaming as it is to music and watching movies at home, but it's not a factor here, hence needing to activate physical copies of the game.

If I have purchased a “physical” copy of the game, why should I have to activate it? If I have spent my hard earned cash on a physical copy, there should be a way to build in anti piracy measures in this day and age of technological advances without the need to install a completely useless 3rd party piece of software that I don’t want or need or use.

People have always legally needed to buy one copy of the game per person, although we know it's often not the case. If you don't play at the same time then more than one person can play FM with different saves, the same as always. Someone mentioned FIFA, if you buy a copy of a console game you can play it at the same time on the same machine, different times on the same machine but you can't play it at the same time on different machines, same as FM this year.

Fair enough. That’s the law, there is only me who plays the game in my household.

Some have doubted the intention of the move being antipiracy and wanting to see stat and asked for honesty. We can't and won't post data of sales, or piracy. However, I will be honest and say if we could remove piracy from FM and a small proportion of those pirates moved to buying the game it would be the equivalent of adding 1 2 or maybe 3 European countries worth of sales to the game easily.

Why can’t you post data of sales, or piracy? I bet if I submitted a FOI request I could. (By the way saying you could add “1, 2 or maybe 3 European countries worth of sales tells me that you believe pirates to be in the region of 15887425.88 extra sales. With 15887425.88 being the average population of a European country.)

People have said that this is an inconvenience to real consumers. It is. Everyone involved wishes it wasn't. What we're asking is for people to see past the inconvenience of one off activation. A billion things in life require you to prove who you are, or show proof of age or ownership, it's not realistic to suggest that people trust you and everyone on everything because it inconveniences the law abiding citizen, that's not how moving from country to country, or owning a car, or buying alcohol, or telephone banking or loads of stuff works. Unfortunately, because so many people steal FM each year it's not really an option for us to expect that FM is just trusted either. We've tried to make the system as simple and as painless as possible, I hope you try it and give it a chance.

I don’t mind activating my game. But I don’t want to be forced to keep a piece of software running on my pc that I will never use, don’t want or need. The option should be there to un-install steam from the pc after activation.

I have tried STEAM before, and like many things, after one VERY bad experience I will not be going back. I installed steam on FM2010. It crashed my system, made it run slow, and then my system refused to start up. After solving this issue steam then failed to update my game, and corrupted many of my saved games. I received no help from Steam, Sega had no idea what to do, and ultimately I had to take the system to be repaired, TWICE! So you will understand that I will not go back to it! The same as I wouldn’t go back to a restaurant with bad food. Or the same as I wouldn’t go back to a garage that had no idea how to fix an issue with my car!

If you haven’t tried STEAM for a few years, it's worth a look. We didn't chose this course of action for FM10 or FM11, but we are now and it's because we think Steam has improved, and internet connection rates are at a level where it's realistic to assume FM consumers, in the main have an internet connection. Some people won't, but it is still possible to activate through Steam, switch on offline mode and not connect again after making one trip to somewhere with Wi-Fi or a connection. It's not perfect, but we think the vast majority of people will be able to connect to the internet.

Correct, the “Vast Majority” of people will be able to connect to the internet. 82.5% of the population can connect to the internet, However only 61% of homes in the in the UK have internet access. The “One trip to somewhere with WI-FI or a connection” you have under-estimated. Although local libraries etc have an internet connection, in my experience you are not allowed to use clients like steam on the systems in these establishments.

No, the people in charge of this system aren't the people who were in charge of the Sega site security

Thank god.

If you get a chance to take up the £5 bet that a cracked working version of the game is available before it's activated on Steam, take it.

I guarantee the game will be pirated, you will never stop it. The same happens in the music industry and the film industry.

And for everyone that does purchase the game, will you, (SI, Sega, Steam and other retailers) offer a refund to anyone that does “try steam now it’s worth a look”

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it is clunky, resource hungry and blocks the user from that fm immersion.

Steam clunky?

You open the icon, it loads automatically, and then you can play your game with at most three clicks. How on earth is that clunky?

Resource hungry? Steam only uses about 60mb of memory. It uses less than firefox, internet explorer and around the same or less as programs like msn messenger, mozilla thunderbird and windows media player.

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Stupid question:

To put it bluntly, is STEAM offline mode stable?

Will it allow people to literally install Steam, download the game, switch it to offline mode as soon as I am done with the download, and never effect my game or my computer? (minus the account being hacked, etc.)

If someone on here from SI or SEGA says yes, then I'll buy it.

If not, then I won't.

Simple as that.

Cheers,

MinneapolisJon

Staff Writer, www.fm-view.com

I've run FM11 with Steam on offline mode, no internet connection at all hooked up, with no problems.

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I totally understand your need for copy protection and I think your solution may be a decent compromise. Steam has malfunctioned for me in the past, but I will still buy Football Manager 2012 because it's a great game. Having to activate once through Steam online and then being able to play offline is better than having to always be connected. That's too intrusive, takes up computer resources, and Steam becomes another layer of complexity between the game and the operating system.

I know other games have ways of activating online without Steam. How does activation work with your distant relation, Out of the Park Baseball? That game is downloadable and requires online activation, but no Steam or other third-party. I'm assuming Marcus Heinsohn doesn't have big bucks to implement something too complex either. (He had a brief agreement with Sega, I think.)

And of course people are right about the piracy. Steam games are routinely cracked and made to run no-Steam and no-CD. It's a delicate situation for developers! I think the product will out, though, and, unless something blows up big time, all but the diehard Steam-haters will eventually hold their noses and get on board.

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Yes, until (for a few different reasons, not really sure why) steam suddenly decides it needs to be online for you to log into it. It's not a massive problem if you have an internet connection
If a programme is in offline mode it should stay offline until the user tells it otherwise, this was one of the key reason why I uninstalled it after SI trumpeted it as the best think since sliced bread when they first linked up.

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*Opens Steam*.... *Opens task manager*

a) Steam ISN'T resource hungry. 13,004kb on my machine.

b) 5 years using it and I've never been hacked.

c) Their customer service is actually quite good.

d) The game will auto patch

e) Achievements (Take 'em or leave 'em)

What, please tell me is wrong with any of the above? I don't get it.

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I dont see what the issue is with steam, ive used steam since FM09 and i have had no problems at all. After reading through all the replies i take it that many people will not be purchasing the latest copy of FM. Very sad! A lot of time has been spent buy SI developing the game what i thought we all love, unfortunatly due to piracy this is the only option or would you prefer that the game gets leaked to pirates and SI lose money which could go to improving FM every year. I for one will be buying the game and i will carry on buying this game!!

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Can SI explain what the situation would be for FM gamers in the same household then?

Sounds to me like because of idiots stealing the game me and my brother have to buy the game twice despite living in the same household? Or is there an option for this problem? I don't see why we should have to buy the game twice, its extremely harsh. We don't buy two Fifa games for example. Last couple of years I have acitivated through Steam and he has used the disc so I'm guessing now he will need a Steam account and his own activation code which means buying two games? Not very fair is it?

In the past SI have made it clear that they consider two relatives in the same household sharing a copy illegal/piracy. IMO this is absurd, especially when you realise its the same company that delibrately got rid of CD checks in CM 97/98 to encourage lending the game to your mates, and obviously long-term make more fans of the series.

I'm someone that buys and plays FM through Steam, and genuinely think its an excellent service. But I have two issues with this decision and how it's been expressed:

1- I'm sure a great number of people worldwide pirate FM (though it needs to be made clear that an illegal download does not equal a lost sale, as much as publishers, record labels etc insist otherwise) and that anti-piracy measures are A reason why you've decided to go Steam exclusive. But '100%' 'the only reason'? you're telling me that the other pet peeve of publshers, and one that services like Steam are far more effective at combating than piracy, had nothing to do with it? I'm talking, of course, about the second hand retail market - hated by publishers because they get no cut of the resale. Are SEGA and SI really claiming that this perceived problem had absolutely nothing to do with this decision?

2- As i've said, I'm a great fan of Steam, have a few dozen games on there. But I'm lucky in that i've only ever had to make use of the Offline Mode a couple of times when away from home with sporadic internet access. This is lucky because Offline Mode is notoriously awful. For years it's become a joke - one grounded in absolute truth - that every time the steam software itself is updated the patch notes contain 'fixed the way Offline Mode works' or words to that effect. This has been the case for, what, 6 or 7 years now? Thing is, Offline Mode only works remotely well if you've got no current internet connection at all and you know this in advance. You're playing FM12, middle of the FA Cup final, when someone or a freak storm or w/ever cuts a cable at the end of your street. You lose your internet connection. Steam crashes immediately and takes FM12 with it. "No problem" you think "that nice man from SEGA explained that we can put Steam in offline mode and still play". But you've got no internet connection. You don't have it remember your password, because then your brother might play on your account, and SI define this as 'illegal' through their EULA (unenforcable :) ). So you can't access 'offline mode' at all, until your internet is no longer offline. Might be 5 minutes, might be a fortnight. Your internet connection going down has now cut you off from any and all single-player Steam games you own. This 'solution' needs much more official explanation from SI and/or SEGA, than simply 'there's an offline mode'... because the consensus is it's not a very good one, not up to the general standard of Steam as a PC gaming platform anyway.

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It's true. Whether you believe me or not that's your prerogative, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's the honest truth.

As was mentioned in the opening post. If a quarter of people who pirate the game instead buy it then our sales would over double. Piracy is a huge problem for Football Manager.

More people "play the game pirated", or more people download it? Because they're very, very different things. Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion that the pirates are actually potential customers?

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My concerns have been covered thoroughly throughout the thread.

I also dislike the idea of having to run a 3rd party application to play a game (which is the only game I play, like many people on this forum), it's that simple. Of course I understand the reasoning behind partnering up with Steam, however I wish we had a choice of how we activate the game we buy. Remember, in this sort of market, you want to target as massive an audience as possible, and not limit who can buy the game. I guess you already know that, though. ;)

As many have said, you cannot close Steam while running FM as that would close FM. I wish they would of gone with the CD Key method, or some other way of activation in addition to Steam. It seems very unfair to those who have genuine copies. I know I sound like a broken record, but I hope that it's understood as many seem to think that because one does not want to use a 3rd party application to play the game, they must be "hating" or "noobs", "crackers" or what have you.

I hope SI would take all of our concerns on board and come up with an alternative way in addition to the current activation method for this years FM release. It would sure make a lot of people happy. I don't see how difficult it could be considering a few years ago there were a couple of ways of activating.

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I really hope SI don't think Steam stops piracy, time and time again countless early pirate releases come from Steam pre-loads (when the full game is pre-loaded). Look at the number of Steam only games that have been pirated before or on release date, it's not hard and it won't stop anything.

With SI's market it's inevitable that piracy will happen, the only sensible thing to do is to offer discount pricing for high-piracy countries in local stores.

Even consider an FM-lite where if for example, it were released in Turkey, they could pay £10 and only play in the Turkish league (background leagues exist, it just stops you getting employed elsewhere), unlocking more leagues would cost £3 each or an extra £10 for all of them. I imagine most users would add English, Spanish and Italian leagues quite quickly, bringing the price up to £19 overall. Not bad when websites are offering it for £20.

Microtransactions have proven that in the bigger picture, you can charge less (or nothing) for the initial product and still make large amounts of money on extras.

I am a huge Steam fan, I buy at least 80% of my games on there, the only ones I don't buy on there are smaller indie games on Desura or Impulse and a few Xbox 360 games. Just because it's a great platform it doesn't mean it is the solution, specific places with high piracy need targetting with a cost effective solution for both sides.

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I genuinely don't get the furore over this. Yes, it's debatable whether it will in any way prevent piracy, and yes it's going to be a pain to install Steam. But I'd imagine that downloading steam, putting in the activation key and then setting it to offline mode will take about an hour maximum, and then you've got what should be a terrific game for the rest of the year. Would I rather I could just install it and get going? Of course. But I'm not going to boycott the game because SI have mildly inconvenienced us in an attempt to crackdown on piracy, when they spend the year trying to improve the game for a largely thankless audience.

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We appreciate that the vast majority of people reading this post on the forums are genuine consumers of the game, and that having to activate is not as simple as putting the game in the drive and playing. However we hope that, as a fan of the game, you feel that having to do a one-time activation is worth it to try to prevent others playing the game for free and stealing what you purchase with no punishment, and with no contribution toward the future of Football Manager and it's development.

I buy the game, and have always activated through Steam anyway, but don't try to ******** your consumers. A quick look at any form of p2p / usenet etc shows that games requiring Steam activation to play are cracked and made available just like those that do not require the consumer to install a 3rd party application.

It's your game and you are free to add any sort of DRM you choose, but I'm pretty sure that AGAIN the only people this information is relevant to is those who have legally purchased the game. The pirates won't be activating via Steam, won't be contributing to your development budget and certainly won't all be rushing out to buy it because you made Steam mandatory.

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I have used steam for yonks and never had a problem with it i think it is spot on.

at the end of the day if you have not got internet connection then get it i mean for christ sake it is 2011 not 1901 and it is not like it is mega expensive to have internet.

the only thing that is bothering me is i have always got the game 2 days before release but know i am going to have to wait until i can activate it but i am not really bothered as long as the game works.

the funny thing is all this will be forgotten when the demo comes out as then everyone will be moaning about the problems with the game itself.

at the end of the day if you have no internet or you do not like steam then it is pretty simple DO NOT BUY THE GAME.

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Edit: I would personally make the game a GFWL game. Let people have Xbox Live achievements - just this will get people to buy it. It will also open the game up to different markets. Yes, GFWL games can be played even without a cd key - but this is same with any other game.

Hell no. Is even worse than steam. I always leave FM running and GFWL is so ******** that it doesnt support two devices connected at the same time so i wouldnt be able to play on xbox at the same time. It doesnt matter anyway now since i have a rule of not buying any DRM infested game for more than 5 eur. Thats the reason why i dont own FM09.

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I hope SI and Sega are noting the number of concerned posters here with 10 or less posts - including some that have obviously registered just to post here. That's how big an issue it is to a lot of people and i'd hope they'd stop cherry picking which points to address and which ones to handwave away (offline mode being crap etc). There's a 'have your cake and eat it' mentality where they often react to mass criticism with "oh, you're just the die hards, most people don't play the game like you do" - but then not reacting when people are so put off by a decision that they;re signing up just to say so.

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I've been playing fm and cm since cm2 - I buy every version with great enthusiasm. Unfortunately - Steam is a massive turn off for me, and for that reason I won't be buying fm2012. #sortitoutsi!!

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Id gladly pay €5 more not to use Steam, than install it. Steam offers the game for €49.99 which is utterly ridiculous in the first place. Production costs are surely cheaper since you dont have to put it on a disk.

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I'll be honest, I'm quite gutted by this news. I've tried Steam, but since FM is the only game I play on my PC I don't really see any benefit to it.

I also find the achievements quite annoying, so at the very least I'd like to be able to turn them off.

It isn't anough to turn me away from FM from good though, if it is necessary then I'll just have to jump through the extra hoop to play my game.

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Its funny to see how so many random users know more about the game, and how its used/misused globally, than the people who created the game, and have by far the best position to keep track of these aspects.

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I'll be honest, I'm quite gutted by this news. I've tried Steam, but since FM is the only game I play on my PC I don't really see any benefit to it.

I also find the achievements quite annoying, so at the very least I'd like to be able to turn them off.

It isn't anough to turn me away from FM from good though, if it is necessary then I'll just have to jump through the extra hoop to play my game.

Playing in offline mode turns off the achievements.

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So let me get this straight - because people do not like steam then they are not going to buy the game.

It is like saying i hate pentium processors and i will only buy amd processors - so what happens if amd ever went out of business will you never ever upgrade your computer again - i really do not think so.

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Its funny to see how so many random users know more about the game, and how its used/misused globally, than the people who created the game, and have by far the best position to keep track of these aspects.

Those who created the game might be more inclined to have an emotional attachment and be more enraged by piracy than they really need to be. Nobody disputes that the game is probably downloaded several more times than it's bought or that people are out there playing for free - but whether genuine customers should be forced to jump through hoops because of this is another matter entirely.

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So let me get this straight - because people do not like steam then they are not going to buy the game.

It is like saying i hate pentium processors and i will only buy amd processors - so what happens if amd ever went out of business will you never ever upgrade your computer again - i really do not think so.

But AMD haven't gone out of business? As long as there are other options available nobody should be forced to use a single one.

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Playing in offline mode turns off the achievements.

I've asked twice about that and no one told me that :(

Still not happy though ;)

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So let me get this straight - because people do not like steam then they are not going to buy the game.

It is like saying i hate pentium processors and i will only buy amd processors - so what happens if amd ever went out of business will you never ever upgrade your computer again - i really do not think so.

Do you know how do differentiate between hardware and software ?

Why do you need to use a 3rd party software for something you own( bought a cd).

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Those who created the game might be more inclined to have an emotional attachment and be more enraged by piracy than they really need to be. Nobody disputes that the game is probably downloaded several more times than it's bought or that people are out there playing for free - but whether genuine customers should be forced to jump through hoops because of this is another matter entirely.

trust me, this is joint between SEGA/SI, and they will have carefully looked into this issue, and how this measure might affect current players who dont use STEAM. This is not just some high emotionally knee jerk reaction.. this is business.

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I think I'm right in saying one can still digitially download the game and not have to use Steam?

I'm not keen on digital download- I've only ever digitally downloaded one album, which has cost me about £50, and that was because I didn't have a choice, so I'm willing to go to some hardship to get a physical copy- but frankly it's better than having to use Steam.

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trust me, this is joint between SEGA/SI, and they will have carefully looked into this issue, and how this measure might affect current players who dont use STEAM. This is not just some high emotionally knee jerk reaction.. this is business.

Yeah, BAD business, it's going to cost them in the long run.

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trust me, this is joint between SEGA/SI, and they will have carefully looked into this issue, and how this measure might affect current players who dont use STEAM. This is not just some high emotionally knee jerk reaction.. this is business.

Thanks for your insight. I certainly hadn't considered the idea that SI and Sega might have looked into this before going ahead with it.

The way that it will affect this customer (note: not "player") who doesn't use Steam is that he'll cease to be a customer.

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So let me get this straight - because people do not like steam then they are not going to buy the game.

It is like saying i hate pentium processors and i will only buy amd processors - so what happens if amd ever went out of business will you never ever upgrade your computer again - i really do not think so.

That's an awful analogy, had SI decided to launch FM12 with activation via two alternative companies & one went bust the afternoon of release day then your example works, that's not how things are heppening though.

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I think I'm right in saying one can still digitially download the game and not have to use Steam?

I'm not keen on digital download- I've only ever digitally downloaded one album, which has cost me about £50, and that was because I didn't have a choice, so I'm willing to go to some hardship to get a physical copy- but frankly it's better than having to use Steam.

I dont think so, i think from the jist of it any version bought will have to be used through steam.

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I think I'm right in saying one can still digitially download the game and not have to use Steam?

That doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can tell. Otherwise I wouldn't really care.

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