A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[max-riot]

max, had you read the posts you'd see people from SEGA and SI, including me, stating that that absolutely isn't the case. SEGA and SI do not benefit from any ad revenue or any other payment, nor have we paid Steam anything.

For guidance on SI's POV on advertising at the expense of their game quality or consumer desire, please note that a large percentage of the hoardings around the pitch are given to charity each year. Those that are given to advertisers are not given unrealistically, for example taking all the hoardings around the ground, or 3 in a row even. Advertisers would love it, SI don't allow it because its not realistic to be playing at a lower league ground where they have LED dynamic ads. SI and SEGA even give a donation from every FM we've ever sold to WarChild. You aren't dealing with a horrendous money grabbing developer here, you're buying a game from, in my opinion, one of the more principled and idealistic companies out there. They deserve a bit more respect, in my opinion.

give me a break mate...

you work for a massive international company that like others are only interested in one thing PROFIT...... the ads are there for a reason to generate sales.

be it in the game it self or through steam...

as for the charity work, care to let me know how much you save on tax because of charitable donations..????

[Louwen]

Hmmm...

Fresh install of Steam uses 251,5MB of RAM on Mac OS X 10.6.8 ....

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/4186/steamxa.png

[bcooper]

You are making a presumption he is using a laptop.

Also internet hotspots aren't exactly everywhere outside London and other major cities.

He said he visited hotspots to browse the internet, so I assumed that he isn't lugging a desktop around with him, and that he visits hotspots!

[dafuge]

Hmmm...

Fresh install of Steam uses 251,5MB of RAM on Mac OS X 10.6.8 ....

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/4186/steamxa.png

The child in me wants to mention that red button. Must.... resist....

[bcooper]

That sounds like a number of assumptions have been made a I heard similar language at my last employer where the previous senior management team were cooking the books.

Do not interpret that as doubt, I fully accept that counterfeiting in all its forms in an issue but if figures like 25% of pirate copy holders & over 7 figures are used then these should be based on hard facts & not numbers extrapolated from other statistical data such as convictions, seizures & confirmed data for other similar products which is how this is coming across.

We're not going to go into the sales figures here or anywhere, hence the vagueness.

[The Welsh Lad]

The child in me wants to mention that red button. Must.... resist....

Didn't even notice it until your post and I looked back

[Louwen]

The child in me wants to mention that red button. Must.... resist....

Well spotted.

S*L*U*T* (danish) = Quit/Finish

[adamstudley]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned/answered...

How is it legal for Sega to insist that customers who have bought a copy of the game are required to install a specific software programme to be able to run the game? And for no other option to be given?

As an example Microsoft were successfully taken to court over the fact that you had to install certain software on their operating systems. Would this not fall in to the same sphere?

In a situation where a customer buys a copy of FM12 will they be informed in advance of purchase that they are required to install a third party software in order to play the game (not everyone will be aware of this before purchase)? If not, when they open the game and install to find this out, and are unable/unwilling to install steam, would they receive a refund from sega (as a shop would not issue a refund on an opened game)?

Personally I have no opinion of steam either way as I have never used it. However, I would have prefered that I didnt have to do this (I am happy with the disc in the drive) as I have no need for steam for any other purpose. But I will more than likely install it so that I can play.

To all the people saying steam is great and works perfectly for them, congratulations. But surely you realise that that's not the issue that some people have. This is about choice and preference. You choose steam but others should be free not to.

Sega are trying to justify this by saying it's to combat piracy (which it more than likely won't) and many people don't buy that (I am undecided) - What I would like to know is if steam are paying Sega a fee for exclusivity of this game?

...

Are you saying you are quite happy to see them (customers) walk away?

Are you saying you are not happy to see them walk away but 'tough' because this is the decision we have made?

I would also be interested to hear an answer to this.

Did you not think that this decision would alienate part of your fanbase? If no, why not? If yes, why did you deem that acceptable?

It seems kind of a like it or lump it situation.

[gmilitao]

I don't know why my latest post are deleted. I'm not go agains anyone and i'm not disrespected anything... why make this?????

The question i made is why fm boxed version are not sold in Brazil in few days after uk release. :confused:

[Guest]

We're not going to go into the sales figures here or anywhere, hence the vagueness.

Fair comment, does make it difficult & I'm darn sure frustrating when your hands are tied but & there is always a but I didn't mention sales figures, I was referring to the piracy statistics which I'm surprised cannot be released.

As the crux of the arguemnet for going to Steam only activation is to combat the real menace of software piracy then surely from a public realtions standpoint coming out with firm figures can only be a positive. If SEGA published verified data showing that illegally held copies of FM2011 had been logged in use on 25,540,590 times in the last 12 months then you would add weight to your reasons for taking the decisions that you have, albeit I still hold that your timing has been very poor.

Bet you're wishing you'd waiting until Monday to release this news.

[stevetranmere]

We're not going to go into the sales figures here or anywhere, hence the vagueness.

So your asking us to trust you and download and play the game through the steam app, but you wont back up the reasons why you want this with cold hard facts and numbers?

if people knew what you were up against then maybe there wouldnt be so many complaints and objections.

[BuryBlade]

I have been reading this thread for well over an hour now, so have had plenty of time to consider this announcement.

I was really looking forward to the release of FM12 this year, more so with these daily blogs that really made the game seem well worth purchasing.

Then I see today's announcement and I am very disappointed. I am torn as to whether I will be buying the game this year. On one hand I really want the game but on the other I really do NOT want to have to install steam on my laptop. I had steam a few years ago and found it annoying, mainly due to how pointless it really is when all I play is FM. Like many others have said, their customer service is appalling and why would I want to run this program, in the background, eating resources and automatically downloading updates when all I wanted was to play FM? I don't even allow my anti virus to automatically download updates! Why would I want steam doing this?!

Furthermore, as others have said, this, in my opinion, will have very little impact on piracy. The game will get hacked/cracked etc by people and within days and therefore surely defeats the objective of this exercise. I am baffled as to why such a risky move has been taken, which has clearly upset many of the loyal fanbase SI has spent years building up.

Recently the playstation network was hacked and Sony spent a good couple of months fixing and implementing new safety features to improve security. All the while, PS Customers could NOT use the online features. Now, lets say, Steam, a much smaller, lesser company than Sony, were to get hacked and became unusable, either temporarily or permanantly. This is not inconceivable. Now that would render this game unusable. So I have paid £25-£30 for a disc that is now unusable for a game that no longer can be played. Can you explain your thinking behind implenting such measures that could potentially cause so many problems?

Finally, in recent years, demo day and then release day have been riddled with problems about the game and or steam not working or certain problems occur. For example, the 3D match engine in 2009 didn't initially work with Intel graphics cards. Every year there are hundreds of threads on here with people unhappy with the fact the game isn't working. Throw steam into the equation and all of a sudden I forsee many more people having problems. Steam's customer service is at best, non existant, so how are SI going to manage dealing with so many unhappy customers on release date who have paid their hard earned cash and their game doesn't work ?

I know you guys at SI/Sega will non doubt be trying to allay people fears, and have a lot of people writing messages on here, but I really think you need to post a thorough and detailed post, answering as many of the questions as possible, because as it stands, it is the first time I am considering not getting the game, and I have played since CM2. Today has been a very sad day for FM in my opinion.

Kind regards

BuryBlade

[1984mattyd]

so are retailers going to tell everyone that comes up to their desk to ask if they have an internet connection before they buy the game so people who do not have internet connection dont get screwed when they take it home and try to install it and then see that they cant play it or return it, surely retailers are going to have to notify customers that fm has now gone this way, if i was running a game retail shop i know i would be telling people as they buy it so that they know instead of watching people get screwed.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr

You have clearly forgotten the 2008 release day debacle. Your line about not buying the game is pathetic by the way (only 1 step removed from "go play FIFA", "wens da demo owt" or "wot taktix werks") however I would like to say that I will buy the game on day one, I am looking forward to it that much however I am dreading the activation (due to the 2008 experience).

haha.. this made me laugh.. How was my line pathetic? You, and others, acting like spoilt little kids isnt pathetic? - And to be honest, your comparison of my "line" to those you suggest is just sad.. even for someone like you..

Maybe SI can assure us that the game will be labelled with a very large clear warning that internet access is required to play the game, rather than as a footnote in small print. Maybe SI can confirm 100% that the 2008 issues (we all know what caused them) cannot happen this year. Of course SI cannot do the latter because by involving activation like this they are leaving the back door unlocked to the kind of "Terrorists" that attacked the servers back then.

You cannot compare a situation 4 years ago to the FM12 situation.. 4 years is a lifetime in technology. And since Steam works flawlessly for most games I'd bet money on that the activation of FM will work flawlessly also.. - but yeah, ***** can happen unfortunately.

As for Steam, unless I completely Uninstall I get it popping up lots when I dont want it to (may be in part a Vista issue but Steam is the source of the problem, so here I am having to install 3rd party software I already cannot wait to completely remove again.

You can turn off all notification from Steam and also you can turn off all notifications from Vista (except if a restart is required..)

Yesterday I felt like an excited customer looking forward to 21/10/11, now I feel like a mug punter, to be honest.

Thats too bad..

..........

"someone like you" - thanks for that, really adds weight to your arguement!

"spoilt little kids....." - only spoilt little kids take that attitude.

"4 years" - was 3 years actually (2008 - FM2009) you do the math!

"*** happens"- it happens if you create a situation where it CAN happen.

"flawlessly for most games" - "most games"?, "all games" would have been more reassuring.

"too bad" - no comment.

To be fair you may well be right about the Steam / Vista issues that annoyed me but I never wanted to download Steam - that was the point. I have similar issues with itunes but that is not relevant to this post.

I appreciate that you do not see my point of view but common courtesy should be shown thank you. I do find it pathetic that someone comes to an SI Games web site and casually recommends that someone who owns every FM title should not buy the game just because you disagree with their point of view. A lot of Posters have claimed they will not buy the game this year - I did not. You may want to ponder for a moment longer before hitting those keys in future!.

[treble_yell_:-)]

We're hardly going to answer that to be fair. It'd be like saying "I've protected my valuables." Then saying "they're in a combination safe, in the basement. The safe is made by Yale and has 8 digits in the combination, no two numbers next to each other in the combination are the same. It's in the basement under a blanket". We think it will protect the game, we're not going to tell you how!

You mean your not going to answer that because a quick look around the net shows that any game you can get on Steam , you can get illegally. In fact it is increasingly the Steam pre load that is cracked and released before retail copies these days.

You can't answer the question because you know that at best FM12 won't leak until the day of launch and the costly consultancy agency you used told you that pirates will be so desperate to play the game they will rush out and buy it rather than wait a day and get it for free. You know it won't make any difference, but you feel the need to seem like you are doing something to combat piracy .

The fact is : Steam is no more secure than something as simple as a CD key , you are inconveniencing a portion of your customer base to chase this fabled group of pirates that are actually just dying to pay for their games in the 1 day head start that Steam might give you.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Clearly Steam activation is going to happen, so could SI offer some really good downloadable extra content that could pacify the doubters like myself?. Some really good skins or something else that appeals to the majority may be good. Frankly an online games room where you virtually jerk off about you achievements doesnt really do it for me. That has a very limited appeal to the adult gameplayer I suspect.

I do hope on 21st October I am pleasantly surprised by the activation process.

[mimland]

As long as I don't have to buy it through steam I can probably live with it, even if I don't like it.

[SCIAG]

so are retailers going to tell everyone that comes up to their desk to ask if they have an internet connection before they buy the game so people who do not have internet connection dont get screwed when they take it home and try to install it and then see that they cant play it or return it, surely retailers are going to have to notify customers that fm has now gone this way, if i was running a game retail shop i know i would be telling people as they buy it so that they know instead of watching people get screwed.

The box will say "an internet connection is required to install this game" or similar.

[Bicycle]

Bought it on Steam last year and didn't any trouble at all - offline or not. I do think SI are being foolishly optimistic in thinking that this will curb piracy somehow. If anything, they've just alienated more of their paying customers.

[smgers]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned/answered...

How is it legal for Sega to insist that customers who have bought a copy of the game are required to install a specific software programme to be able to run the game? And for no other option to be given?

As an example Microsoft were successfully taken to court over the fact that you had to install certain software on their operating systems. Would this not fall in to the same sphere?

In a situation where a customer buys a copy of FM12 will they be informed in advance of purchase that they are required to install a third party software in order to play the game (not everyone will be aware of this before purchase)? If not, when they open the game and install to find this out, and are unable/unwilling to install steam, would they receive a refund from sega (as a shop would not issue a refund on an opened game)?

Personally I have no opinion of steam either way as I have never used it. However, I would have prefered that I didnt have to do this (I am happy with the disc in the drive) as I have no need for steam for any other purpose. But I will more than likely install it so that I can play.

To all the people saying steam is great and works perfectly for them, congratulations. But surely you realise that that's not the issue that some people have. This is about choice and preference. You choose steam but others should be free not to.

Sega are trying to justify this by saying it's to combat piracy (which it more than likely won't) and many people don't buy that (I am undecided) - What I would like to know is if steam are paying Sega a fee for exclusivity of this game?

...

I would also be interested to hear an answer to this.

Did you not think that this decision would alienate part of your fanbase? If no, why not? If yes, why did you deem that acceptable?

It seems kind of a like it or lump it situation.

This is exactly how I feel - as I said before I've been playing the CM/FM series for about sixteen years now and have bought (and still have) every single release.

I won't be purchasing FM2012 now due to the same reasons in your post. Starting to get used to the idea and may'be thinking it's a good thing - I mean how long do you continue playing FM for? It's a shame as if I'd known that FM2011 was going to be my last one then I might have taken a lot more time to do certain challenges etc with it.

As it is I took it off my PC earlier this evening - preparing myself for a life without FM..

[edwingray]

The Steam client acts as a buffer for registering the game, this is an attempt to cut-down on the piracy. The client will also, when online mode keep your acheivements up-to-date, with Steam offline your achievements aren't recorded, it will also, when online download any patches or updates for the game.

The internet connection only has to be on to install Steam. Once installed you can unplug your internet and swing it over it your head cowboy style and the game will still run but you have to have Steam running in the background.

If you don't have Steam running you can't play the game. But it just has to be in the system tray.

This is what annoys me. A pointless piece of software clogging up the system tray just to be able to play a game. I will try and get more information about Steam before making a final decision, but as things stand I'm more likely not to buy the game.

[Guest]

The box will say "an internet connection is required to install this game" or similar.

I wasn't too sure so I had to check, the FM09 box does not state that you need internet access to activate, 2010 has it written on the back of the manual in respect to the Steam option but you don't get to see that at purchase.

[TacticalGenius]

The child in me wants to mention that red button. Must.... resist....

I want one of those buttons!

[edwingray]

There is some real bizarre logic in this thread. Simply put we're running with Steam for this release. If you don't like it, we're sorry but it's not going to change for this release. If you don't want to buy the game simply because you don't want to have to use Steam then you won't buy the game. I don't know why some people are arguing over the fact they're not going to buy the game? Either you are or you aren't, there's not much we can do about that other than reassure you that we feel Steam is the best choice for Football Manager.

I think this post shows a shocking lack of respect to loyal customers.

[Profesor]

What I would like to know is if steam are paying Sega a fee for exclusivity of this game?

Had you read this thread, you'd have known the answer to this question.

[Guest]

I think this post shows a shocking lack of respect to loyal customers.

The term 'loyal' gets banded about too often for my liking, I agree with Neil that there is nothing much that SI can do this close to release but there are things that could have been done that weren't.

[adamstudley]

Had you read this thread, you'd have known the answer to this question.

I didn't read all of the thread no.

Hence why i started my post by apologising if anything I was asking had been mentioned already.

But you'd have known that if you had read all of my post.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

Have to say I'm dissapointed in this news but not surprised considering an increasing number of PC Retail Games are using Steamworks, the only upside is that at least you aren't using GFWL.

Whilst Steam has improved over the years and has a fairly large following, I'm not a fan of Steamworks for Retail games when it's forced upon us for various reasons: (Downloading games through Steam is a different matter - it's my choice and I only buy the games when they are a bargain price in the sales).

- You need to ask permission to play the game each time, if Steam is down, or your internet is or Steam has a problem you are out of luck, and despite what people say the offline mode doesn't work 100% of the time. Imagine if FM2011 was linked to the SegaPass system?

- You cannot sell the game, lend it to a friend or give it away once you have linked the game to your Steam account - despite what people claim none of these are illegal in the UK provided you don't keep access yourself. I've sold loads of games I've finished with or haven't liked over the years and have even made a profit on occasions. If a game has Steamworks or similar I'll wait for the price to drop or wait to see if it's a good game before buying it. (Though this point doesn't apply for FM for me).

- As far as I'm aware Steam has no UK presence so if something happens to them or your account there go your games and you are left with no recourse. (Apart from a vague now deleted promise that Valve will free your games if they go bust).

A couple of questions:

Can you confirm that the game will only use Steamworks and nothing in addition, Arkham Asylum on Steam for example is a joke not only is it tied to your Steam account you need to log into GFWL to save the game and it also has limited activations.

Can you say why a Uniloc system wasn't considered (One off activation that can be revoked and used on X computers) I understand Uniloc are no longer around but there are a couple of alternatives (which to be fair have worst press than Steam) as I much prefer a system where licenses can be revoked.

Is there any chance that the game could be disassoicated from Steam after a set period of time, like the Uniloc acitvations were removed from FM2009?

Is it possible that the move to Steam could result in more and smaller patches (if they are required), some peoples worries with Steam's Automatic updates is you cannot roll back, being able to do hotfix's especially with the recent changes to how Steam patches would be a nice advantage.

Is it possible to say how many/percent of boxed copies of FM2011 were activated on Steam? For an idea of how many people activate online against using the disk.

Finally will FM2012 disappear from Steam a few days before release date in the UK as seems to be happening to most Steamworks games in the UK recently?

[The Welsh Lad]

This is exactly how I feel - as I said before I've been playing the CM/FM series for about sixteen years now and have bought (and still have) every single release.

I won't be purchasing FM2012 now due to the same reasons in your post. Starting to get used to the idea and may'be thinking it's a good thing - I mean how long do you continue playing FM for? It's a shame as if I'd known that FM2011 was going to be my last one then I might have taken a lot more time to do certain challenges etc with it.

As it is I took it off my PC earlier this evening - preparing myself for a life without FM..

Forever. I have to admit when I first read the thread I was dead against it, but after having time to think and looking at what people have been saying, I'm ok with it, if it works is still to be seen. If this is the way that gaming is going then we have to move with the times, like someone said earlier people were up in arms with having the 3D put in, and I think some of them now what the graphics improved.

[edwingray]

The term 'loyal' gets banded about too often for my liking, I agree with Neil that there is nothing much that SI can do this close to release but there are things that could have been done that weren't.

loyal in this case means someone who has the previous ten versions of CM/FM on his shelf. I'm all for SI protecting their games and of course it is their right to choose the system they feel best, but to basically write that "if you don't like it then tough luck" is not exactly consumer friendly.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Aye, well said.

Now, onto the next argument.

Really? Read on.

As written above, have a friend download it on a usb memory stick and bring it over. It's what I used to do some years ago at least

Get your mate to put it on a USB stick?

[Dune297]

Still complaining are we? Can't get over the fact that Steam is a great platform and you should simply deal with it? If you don't like it, don't buy it.

[Profesor]

I didn't read all of the thread no.

Hence why i started my post by apologising if anything I was asking had been mentioned already.

But you'd have known that if you had read all of my post.

My apologies if there was a specific reason you demanded an answer to a question especially for yourself even though it had already been answered. It's only natural that SI/SEGA employees should wait for you to post the question for the umpteenth time on a Friday evening so that they can repeat the same answer again. Silly me.

[dresden]

Hi, Yes Steam will need to remain installed. However this offers great benefits such as top quality download speeds, automatic updates & achievements to track you progress

You mean crap download speeds (especially if you are not in NA/Europe), bloatware you need to install even if you don't want it, forced updates that you can't even turn off if you don't want it, and achievements that exist in non-Steam games anyway.

Time to reconsider my purchase. I like paying money to support developers, I don't like paying money to support Steam. Hell, whether sales go up or down, suits will just blame piracy (even though Steam doesn't stop piracy).

[themadsheep2001]

The term 'loyal' gets banded about too often for my liking, I agree with Neil that there is nothing much that SI can do this close to release but there are things that could have been done that weren't.

+1

Not really sure how much more can be said about this imo. At the end of the day, you are either going to buy it, or you are not. And if indeed it does turn out to be disaster (i suspect it will be fairly successful) then i'm sure they will look at other options for FM13, or at least i would hope they would look at other options

[pigfacemonkeyman]

They aren't my customers and I'm not misrepresenting any arguments.

The chief objection seems to be that a separate application is needed for authentication, so what if SI produced an authenticator which was a separate app, would the same objections be valid?

Steam doesn't require payment, it doesn't require sensitive information, so why are people so obsessively against it (many of whom have never tried it)?

3rd Party Application.

[adamstudley]

Still complaining are we? Can't get over the fact that Steam is a great platform and you should simply deal with it? If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Great in your opinion.

Why do people who like steam feel the need to make comments like this?

You are entitled to like steam but others are entitled to have their own opinion, even if this differs from yours (radical idea, I know), and shouldn't be forced down one path.

As for the 'dont like it dont buy it' thats going to be the tag line on the FM12 box isn't it?

[asdpoo]

Whoever deleted my post at least infract me to know what I did wrong.

[adamstudley]

My apologies if there was a specific reason you demanded an answer to a question especially for yourself even though it had already been answered. It's only natural that SI/SEGA employees should wait for you to post the question for the umpteenth time on a Friday evening so that they can repeat the same answer again. Silly me.

I didn't demand. Hence 'I would like to know'.

Instead of posting a smart arse comment in the first place maybe you could have just polietly informed that in fact somebody had already asked and that and the answer was xyz, istead of being a d1ck.

[7Bestie7]

Great in your opinion.

Why do people who like steam feel the need to make comments like this?

Most likely because people who DON'T like Steam feel the need to make equally objective comments about how terrible it is.

[Machetero]

TBH I missed it when a post eluded to it earlier & I should know better so no blame to take on board.

Would also be worth some browny points in the press if a solution could be arranged & as the garrison's are British soveriegn soil German law on this matter should not apply, would be rather embarrassing if a distribution agreement has already be made with NAAFI.

You can play FM in germany. Only issue is that you should buy the game through any other IP. For instance - I bought FM 2009 through Steam while in Moscow even though it wasn't available in Russia through Steam. Just happened that I was working for US company and our internet server was running through London, thus I has UK IP. Didn't even install Steam - just went to my account, changed address in personal info to UK (credit card info stayed Russian or Ukrainian, don't remember which one I used for payment)... and here you go - I had my FM2009 acuired and ready to be installed via ANY IP (did it at home through Russian IP).

The same happened with FM 2011 - bought it via steam for me and my friend while on business trip to France (had to change location to France). Though FM2011 became available through Steam for all former USSR territories (and IPs ) in about two weeks...

[SLO_Fila]

From what I've heard CD Projekt hasn't gone bankrupt yet even though they tried their best to succeed in that by releasing their game, The Witcher 2, without any copy protection. Oh and they even got sued by doing that from distributors...

Surely things aren't so grim for poor ol' Football Manager, no?

[MAINBOY]

If i was to buy the disc version. Would i have to use steam in the background while playing it.

[asdpoo]

You can play FM in germany. Only issue is that you should buy the game through any other IP. For instance - I bought FM 2009 through Steam while in Moscow even though it wasn't available in Russia through Steam. Just happened that I was working for US company and our internet server was running through London, thus I has UK IP. Didn't even install Steam - just went to my account, changed address in personal info to UK (credit card info stayed Russian or Ukrainian, don't remember which one I used for payment)... and here you go - I had my FM2009 acuired and ready to be installed via ANY IP (did it at home through Russian IP).

The same happened with FM 2011 - bought it via steam for me and my friend while on business trip to France (had to change location to France). Though FM2011 became available through Steam for all former USSR territories (and IPs ) in about two weeks...

I wouldn't try that with all those games in my account. It is too close to using VPN to buy games (cheaper) in another currency, which is forbidden and bannable on account level.

[jpwild]

Fair question, and I honestly don;t know the answer. You can thank German law and EA exclusive license for us not being able to serve Germany, but for forces and people activating disc games there, I don;t know. That doesn't mean SEGA haven't though of it, before someone jumps on it, just that at this time I can't ask and don't know!

Surely you wouldn't want to circumvent German law and disrespect the EA license?

You should respect German law and the EA exclusive license in the same way people have to do so with the EULA on Sega games.

You lot already circumvent certain issues with the .LNC fix, which conveneinty allows certain things to happen - as if it's been programmed that if you change a few files that some names change - names that have issues with trademark issues and whatnot, weird that. Then you and your colleagues lecture people on how EULA should not be broken, lol.

I trust that the .LNC fix will be eradicated in FM2012 and beyond to respect holders' rights? I assume it be quite simple to do in the context of things.

[adamstudley]

Most likely because people who DON'T like Steam feel the need to make equally objective comments about how terrible it is.

Yes but if steam is great and works for you then there is no problem. You can buy the game and enjoy it. Why wind up the people who have concerns which they would like addressed (even if some of these concerns are stupid or poorly conveyed).

[Romanista.]

so what happens if steam disappears in 2 years and i want to play my FM12 then?? since i cant, will sega repay me??

also, i think it is time SI parted ways with sega who do nothing to add anything to the game and only take a % of the profits for doing nothing. surely SI would be more profitable without them taking a % of the profits. the fact that Sonic was the last good game produced by them says a lot.

[Guest]

Rather harsh on Sega as they do plenty of work with SI, in all honesty I doubt the title would exist if it wasn't for their support & as for Sonic they've produced plenty of excellent titles since they stopped producing consoles.

[x42bn6]

Firstly, thanks for one of the more considered and constructive posts on the subject.

A few areas where we will disagree I'm afraid...

I agree that there's no difference to you if 1000 or 10000 people pirate the game, the income is the same. But if you don't protect your product in some way, you are relying on the good nature of consumers to pay for what they can get for free.

What else do you have? Force? You can't make people pay for software. They hold the purse strings - push them, and they are likely to just turn away.

Why should a business not assume good faith from their customers? Treat us like customers, not dirt.

My view on DRM is that it needs to be non-invasive and only prevent casual piracy - if we need to make a significant effort in order to copy software illegally, then the average consumer won't bother. If it's a determined cracker, you're not going to stop them anyway. As a result, I don't believe there's anything wrong with protecting software in this way - but it needs to be non-invasive and almost invisible. This doesn't fall into this category.

There's a reason people lock their shops when they close at night. How many of those 1000, or 10000 people pirate the game because it's an option, an easy option?

Firstly, locking your shop is not comparable as piracy is not theft.

It doesn't matter if X people pirate the game because it's an easy option. Why should it matter? It is not like you are going to get any money from these X people even if piracy didn't exist.

What matters is the 1000-X or 10000-X customers who might be willing to pay if you make it tempting enough. And clearly, the more that pirate your game, the more likely you have a group of people (X) who are willing to pay if circumstances change.

Piracy will always be the easy option. It takes pirates a few days (or hours nowadays, really) to crack a game, and it takes minutes for a pirate to install and play the game, without DRM (or Steam). You can make it difficult for the hackers to break it, but to the pirates, it's a matter of downloading a cracked executable. You can't make that hard. Besides, with Steam installation and activation, you've arguably made it harder than downloading a crack.

The game will not be leaked before release and we think it is important that there aren't pirated versions of the game available before legitimate customers can get the game.

Every company tries to avoid leaks - even the cash-cow games like CoD have had leaks. You can't guarantee it.

I'm also not pretending that FM is the only pirated game out there. But it's the software in question here and it's pirated heavily, not just in developing or poor nations, in developed rich countries by people that go on Facebook and brag about it because they think it's ok. It's not.

This isn't a strategy that's born out of anger or frustration, although it is both frustrating and, erm, anger-making. We spend millions and months each year on making the game better, delivering a better and better product to turn people on to buying it. That's how we try to convince people to become legitimate customers. However just leaving the door open and operating a trust system of payment just isn't viable. Microsoft may be able to sit and wait for entire economies to grow before seeing the benefits of their work, most other organisations can't.

And I'm telling you that not trusting your customers is going to make things worse!

If there are customers out there who can afford the game but brag online about pirating it, then tough - do you really think you are going to make money out of them? Probably not! Since you are not going to make money off them, why waste your time on them? Yes, it is frustrating, but literally nothing can be done about it. FM12 will be too annoying for them to pirate, so they'll just ignore the game. If they pirate, Sega make £0 out of them. If they ignore the game, Sega make £0 out of them.

If you consider these customers as likely to convert to paying customers, there's an increase in revenues there. However, this has to outweigh the lost indirect revenues such as word-of-mouth, as well as lost goodwill (just look at this thread!), and many other factors.

ByteShield, SI's old DRM software, has a whitepaper here: http://www.byteshield.net/byteshield_whitepaper_0005.pdf

Although ByteShield has a clear conflict of interest in this area, it's an intriguing read.

Evidence is largely inconclusive on the impact of "lost sales" (or indeed, "gained sales") due to piracy. What is clear, however, is that pirates buy more legal stuff, and there is a good argument that if you removed piracy, these pirates wouldn't buy the legal stuff.

And you don't have to wait for economies to grow. That girl who pirated FM and bragged about it on her Facebook profile - her 200 or so friends have now seen this update with Football Manager mentioned in it, and are suddenly aware of what it is. Sure, you might have lost this one girl, but you have gained 200 potential customers. In the spirit of "the more **** you throw at the wall, the more likely some will stick", you might get some customers out of this 200. If not, they pirate and it continues to spread. Some cannot be "saved" from a piracy point of view, but cut your losses, grit your teeth, and look at those who can. You might feel angry, but getting angry over someone who can't be saved is pointless. Use them to spread word-of-mouth, and look at the remaining 200.

You want word-of-mouth, and piracy is a convenient way of doing this.

We don't believe we've made piracy more attractive.

You have - someone who doesn't like Steam is now more likely to go ahead and pirate.

We don't believe we've put a heavy burden on legitimate consumers, it's a hurdle sure, but we think it's a very low one.

But one that has deep implications for what we are used to. (*)

- We can no longer sell the software on the second-hand market.

- We have an additional layer of red tape should something go wrong.

- Steam is another point of failure.

- If Steam goes bankrupt, it is not legally obliged to "unlock" software for their customers (in fact, they would probably be sued by the publishers if they tried).

- What about other distribution companies? Why just Steam? Is there a competition issue here?

- Steam is based in the US - will non-US customers have legal recourse if they feel some of their rights are violated?

- Security. Things are being hacked left-right-and-centre here. Why should we need to entrust Steam with additional details?

These are not unfounded worries and are brought up in pretty much every Steam debate. For some, these are important questions, although they are just perhaps in principle.

It is a burden to me, and a significant one. And it's one I'm used to somewhat - Civilization V and Total War: Shogun 2 are two games I'd love to play but cannot out of principle, because I feel Steam is DRM masquerading as non-DRM and curtails my rights in an unacceptable way. I trust SI and am willing to part with some of my rights in that EULA - but I have no reason to trust Steam. Yet Sega is claiming we "need" Steam. No - Sega need Steam. We don't.

I could understand if FM and Steam were so tightly-bound together, for example if SI took advantage of most of Steam's features including purchasing software, social networking, buddy lists and so on, meaning that there was a definite advantage for a user to have Steam too, but this is not the case. We know this because FM11 didn't need Steam, and nobody sees FM needing these features.

----

Probably the saddest thing is that we should have seen it coming once SI released a Steam-only skin for FM10 - the notion that Steam customers were more highly-valued than us DVD-inserting folk.

I'm not being able to prove a negative. So I'd like to pose you, or another Sega staff member, this question: For those of us who have always preferred DVD activation without Steam, what's in this change for us?

Please don't say there is no negative impact - those that fall in my position want to hear positive things about this impact. We don't give a rat's arse about piracy (well, I do, but I'm in the minority here), nor Sega corporate-talk - what's in it for me, your customer? Benefits. Tell us why it outweighs the concerns in (*) above.

----

And as an aside, I'm fairly disgusted but somewhat resigned to the fact you feel I a customer can't be trusted (the red bits above). I've spread word about your game. I've tweeted it several times, and have talked about it on other forums. I've bought your software. I've contributed to your forums. And you say I can't be trusted? Then you wonder why there is so much resentment towards DRM (and not just this instance).

[adamstudley]

x42bn6, very well said sir!!