A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[Ackter]

can i install steam in a internet cafe and transfer it to my laptop via a usb stick.i don't have internet on my laptop.

Don't think so, you'd need to take your laptop and use their wifi.

[hehehemann]

If you cannot get an internet connection to your FM computer at any time then I'm afraid you won't be able to activate FM12

That answers that!!! I have been a loyal customer since cm01/02 and now your telling me I cant play the game anymore. I'm highly disappointed with your decision.

[bcooper]

I personally cannot afford the monthly payments. I always bought FM as I knew it would keep me occupied. I use hotspots or the library for internet browsing. This is such bad news now knowing I wont beable to get the game from the shops.

You absolutely can get the game from the shops. Buy the game as you always do, take your laptop to one of the hotspots you visit to browse and activate the game online. Then turn the game to offline mode and go home. You can play FM12.

[Lord Rowell]

They can all play one copy at the same time in a hotseat game.

If you wanted to buy them Gears of War (randomly picked game) it would be exactly the same.

I don't know what a "hotseat game" is, but from the context with which you write, it sound like a specific set up / one running game with several managers, perhaps? Whatever it is, you've imposed conditionality.

You mention another game. You know, just because other producers behave in this fashion doesn't mean SI have to, you have a choice. You're responsible for your own actions, no-one else is.

I stand by my position that this is absurd. Sure, you want to stop piracy, but this uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut and penalises families who just want to buy a copy for their household. SI are going too far with this one, IMO the ethics and concept of property ownership of a household outweigh SI's rights to insist an individual copy is provided for every Jonny and Joanna.

Very, very disappointed with your response here.

[SCIAG]

Thanks for the swift reply SCIAG. Now, my responses to the answers.

1. Very disappointed with SI and SEGA with this because it forces people to have an internet connection. I know most people have one, but not everyone can afford to maintain one or has access to internet if they're in a rural area. This prevents them from playing the game even when they've purchased it, or have received it as a gift. This is economic discrimination.

2. This is absurd. Yes, I saw Neil Brock's earlier post that this is the legal position. The legal position is absurd and it is unethical and shameful that SI and SEGA are exploiting this to the maximum. Are we seriously saying that Mum and Dad have to buy two or more copies for their kids? Have the folk at SI and SEGA not twigged that this disproportionately affects those on lower incomes, especially in these times of rising unemployment, real wage deflation and austerity measures?

As with all things, there is a balance between a firm protecting its property rights, and acting in a socially responsible manner. This crosses an ethical line IMO in pursuit of profit. I'm disgusted at this.

3. I'm pleased to hear that is the case as purchasing a game should mean that, as with anything else, you own it. This is called property rights. Though I fear that the next step will be that we can't decide to sell or give away our own property and will become licensers rather than owners. More power to the big firms, less power to the little folk.

I posted on the poll thread that I'd give serious consideration as to whether I'd buy FM12 or not. I've now reached a conclusion, unless SI and SEGA reverse this policy, I won't be buying any more games from them, because this is a matter of principle.

To the people who don't understand the fuss. I understand you like Steam. I did, when I had a choice as to whether to use it or not. But this is the issue, its a choice. Now, SI have taken that choice away from us.

1) I agree with you, SI shouldn't stop people without an internet connection from playing the game.

I have a laptop with a broken network card. I occasionally use it to write or play FM when I go on long-ish train journeys. Now that's a tiny minority of my FM time, but it will still annoy me next time I go on a long journey and cannot play my latest save. For other people, it will stop them playing FM all together. These are people who cannot pirate FM. To be honest, I think they're fine about SI having to employ fewer coders, as long as they actually get to play the game!

2) Again, I agree. UK Copyright Law is totally outdated. It is silly that combining your digital music collection with your partner's, or going halves on FM with your brother, is illegal. Fortunately, I think copyright law is being updated in the next year or so to make it better fit in the digital world.

3) Legally, I don't think you can give it away, but it is technically doable.

[Huey Lewis]

I have read some really REALLY idiotic comments in this thread. I've been a long-time FM fan and I totally appreciate where they're coming from - everyone loves to come out of the woodwork and slag off SI as a 'profit making machine' and 'having sold out to Sega' but they seem to forget that FM is the only thing they make money from. Simply put, if FM doesn't make money there will be no more FM.

All the people who think they're going to protest SI using Steam (simply because selfish bastards pirate the game - where's the people moaning at this jerks?) by simply not getting the game, what do they expect SI to do? Come back with their tails between their legs saying "we're sorry loyal (word that's being thrown around a lot here) legion of fans, we'll release the game with no copy protection so everyone can enjoy it - even the pirates two weeks early!" Sorry but that's not going to happen.

They're asking you to install Steam, not asking you to eat your own genitalia. If you don't like it, don't buy it, bugger off from these forums and go and do something else with your lives. Do us all a favour. Or better yet, spend your time designing a full-proof copy-protection system that doesn't infringe on your 'basic human rights' which Steam apparently is and do us all a favour. The pirates are the scumbags here, not Sega or SI.

[DaddyTorgo]

Steam is wonderful - I don't get what all your problems are with it.

I have Steam installed on my home laptop and also on my PC at work. I save my savegame files to Dropbox (and back them up to my HD), and I'm able to play the same savegame both at home and also at work on my lunchbreak. It's amazing. I could never go back to just playing on disc.

[SCIAG]

I have read some really REALLY idiotic comments in this thread. I've been a long-time FM fan and I totally appreciate where they're coming from - everyone loves to come out of the woodwork and slag off SI as a 'profit making machine' and 'having sold out to Sega' but they seem to forget that FM is the only thing they make money from. Simply put, if FM doesn't make money there will be no more FM.

Good job FM is the best-selling PC game in the world, despite only one in five copies being purchased.

[Guest]

That answers that!!! I have been a loyal customer since cm01/02 and now your telling me I cant play the game anymore. F U I'm highly disappointed with your decision.

Although not exactly constructive your sentiments do seem to sum up the view of a number of folk.

Such a shame as this could have been easily avoided by having an open discussion on the matter a few months ago, if SI had posted in June/July that they were planning to go down this route they would have been in a position to assess the communities reaction & given themselves time to think of alternative options if needed before the game was announced, why wait a few weeks before going Gold to announce this.

[x42bn6]

3) Legally, I don't think you can give it away, but it is technically doable.

Agreed - but it's the existing laws' faults, because it is meaningless to "own" a bunch of zeroes and ones. Software is essentially a photocopying machine that produces perfect copies for tiny cost, and existing laws cannot cope with that.

It is, however, possible to bring "software ownership" close to "true ownership" as possible. One way is to release it into the public domain, for example, or in the free software world, copyleft designed to protect your efforts.

Software licensing, of course, isn't one that helps.

[CLS]

I would be interesting in hearing statistics on the piracy levels of FM09, which introduced compulsory activation, Steam, and huge problems, in comparison to FM08 and FM10/11. If SI are convinced activation reduces piracy then why don't they show us how much of a difference it made last time we had this much fiasco?

[stevetranmere]

I wonder what figures ( amount of people ) actually play fm that dont have the internet? or are you not able to release those figures also? I really think everyone at si needs to sit down and discuss this further with input from long term customers/players as to how this could be better resolved? there is no point SI eliminating say 100,000 users from piracy, to lose double that amount who actually go and buy the game!

[SeanNUFC]

I have read some really REALLY idiotic comments in this thread. I've been a long-time FM fan and I totally appreciate where they're coming from - everyone loves to come out of the woodwork and slag off SI as a 'profit making machine' and 'having sold out to Sega' but they seem to forget that FM is the only thing they make money from. Simply put, if FM doesn't make money there will be no more FM.

All the people who think they're going to protest SI using Steam (simply because selfish bastards pirate the game - where's the people moaning at this jerks?) by simply not getting the game, what do they expect SI to do? Come back with their tails between their legs saying "we're sorry loyal (word that's being thrown around a lot here) legion of fans, we'll release the game with no copy protection so everyone can enjoy it - even the pirates two weeks early!" Sorry but that's not going to happen.

They're asking you to install Steam, not asking you to eat your own genitalia. If you don't like it, don't buy it, bugger off from these forums and go and do something else with your lives. Do us all a favour. Or better yet, spend your time designing a full-proof copy-protection system that doesn't infringe on your 'basic human rights' which Steam apparently is and do us all a favour. The pirates are the scumbags here, not Sega or SI.

[Wakers]

If Offline works. If at any point offline mode stops working, you (usually) have to get back onto the internet to fix it.

[Lord Rowell]

3. I'm pleased to hear that is the case as purchasing a game should mean that, as with anything else, you own it. This is called property rights. Though I fear that the next step will be that we can't decide to sell or give away our own property and will become licensers rather than owners. More power to the big firms, less power to the little folk.

I posted on the poll thread that I'd give serious consideration as to whether I'd buy FM12 or not. I've now reached a conclusion, unless SI and SEGA reverse this policy, I won't be buying any more games from them, because this is a matter of principle.

To the people who don't understand the fuss. I understand you like Steam. I did, when I had a choice as to whether to use it or not. But this is the issue, its a choice. Now, SI have taken that choice away from us.

You do not own any software that you buy - you only own the license to use it.

Semantics.

I think its pretty clear what I meant. If I buy the game, it should be mine to give to or sell to someone else if I chose. Same as if I buy a book or a coffee table.

[x42bn6]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, bugger off from these forums and go and do something else with your lives. Do us all a favour.

There are people here who really contribute to this forum (and indirectly, to SI and the development of this game) who would hurt the product you love if they "buggered off".

It's brilliant, isn't it, this "us and you" mentality? Fans turning on fans.

We're consumers. We have more power than you think. Until today, Football Manager 2009's Amazon rating is a testament to that - 3 years on, it's still got a pathetic rating based on one mistake - DRM.

Steam is controversial for many (it was controversial for Civilization V as well) - and both sides have points. But that's the point - it's controversial.

[Cougar2010]

You absolutely can get the game from the shops. Buy the game as you always do, take your laptop to one of the hotspots you visit to browse and activate the game online. Then turn the game to offline mode and go home. You can play FM12.

You are making a presumption he is using a laptop.

Also internet hotspots aren't exactly everywhere outside London and other major cities.

[Guest]

I have read some really REALLY idiotic comments in this thread. I've been a long-time FM fan and I totally appreciate where they're coming from - everyone loves to come out of the woodwork and slag off SI as a 'profit making machine' and 'having sold out to Sega' but they seem to forget that FM is the only thing they make money from. Simply put, if FM doesn't make money there will be no more FM.

All the people who think they're going to protest SI using Steam (simply because selfish bastards pirate the game - where's the people moaning at this jerks?) by simply not getting the game, what do they expect SI to do? Come back with their tails between their legs saying "we're sorry loyal (word that's being thrown around a lot here) legion of fans, we'll release the game with no copy protection so everyone can enjoy it - even the pirates two weeks early!" Sorry but that's not going to happen.

They're asking you to install Steam, not asking you to eat your own genitalia. If you don't like it, don't buy it, bugger off from these forums and go and do something else with your lives. Do us all a favour. Or better yet, spend your time designing a full-proof copy-protection system that doesn't infringe on your 'basic human rights' which Steam apparently is and do us all a favour. The pirates are the scumbags here, not Sega or SI.

So any counter discussion is automatically invalid & those of us who do not want to install Steam, are unsure due to past bad experiences or are unable to easily access a broadband connection should just STFU & walk away without voicing our concerns?

Well cheers mate, I'll just crawl back under the woodwork that I've been hiding in for the last 4 years expect I haven't & if you've read some of my posts on the blogs I was until this afternoon really looking forward to this game.

[kwillett]

You absolutely can get the game from the shops. Buy the game as you always do, take your laptop to one of the hotspots you visit to browse and activate the game online. Then turn the game to offline mode and go home. You can play FM12.

What happens when you need a patch... do you take it to your local hotspot and sit there for 4 hours waiting for the patch to download....ridiculous post

[bcooper]

Serious question, surely someone in your office must be aware there are more secure methods of piracy protection. Nobody is disputing that if a game is harder to crack then the likelihood is that the people who want to play the game will need to buy it, but going through steam is easier than having to get a NO-CD executable back in the day.

EDIT: To make it clearer, i'm sure people wouldn't complain if it was a viable method of stopping piracy, but it isn't.

SEGA have been looking into this for some time, with some people that are pretty expert in the piracy and protection area. They're well aware of the limitations and success of STEAM so far.

After looking into it, we're pretty confident that we have a solution in place that will protect the game. And that for FM12 Steam is a viable method of reducing and at the very least significantly delaying piracy.

I personally disagree with the last statement though. Had we gone for a more harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection I think people would be more unhappy. The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate. Essentially people will be unhappy if anything we do gets in the way or makes it more difficult for them to play FM. We understand that, which is why the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

[SCIAG]

What happens when you need a patch... do you take it to your local hotspot and sit there for 4 hours waiting for the patch to download....ridiculous post

I don't think the patch download would take 4 hours, but that's a good point.

[Ackter]

You are making a presumption he is using a laptop.

Also internet hotspots aren't exactly everywhere outside London and other major cities.

iirc every McDonalds has free Wifi access and they're bloody ​everywhere :/

[SCIAG]

The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate.

I'm still pretty annoyed about that. Bring back FM09's activation!

[vlobben]

I find the claim that this is essentially a "once in a lifetime inconvenience" absurd. As if activating the game within steam was everything you did. Sorry, but it is not. Every time you want to launch football manager you have to start steam, type in your password (if you dont want any other user of the same computer to have access to your steam account), wait for it to log in, click away the splash screens and weekly offers, find your games and FINALLY click launch. All this assumes that steam is actually working that day. Worst case scenario steam gives you a cryptic "we are sorry, but your game is unavailable" or wont connect at all (and refuse to go into offline mode)

And yes, the list of things to do is slightly exaggerated, but even the best case scenarios is far from a once-in-a-lifetime-activation.

[stevetranmere]

SEGA have been looking into this for some time, with some people that are pretty expert in the piracy and protection area. They're well aware of the limitations and success of STEAM so far.

After looking into it, we're pretty confident that we have a solution in place that will protect the game. And that for FM12 Steam is a viable method of reducing and at the very least significantly delaying piracy.

I personally disagree with the last statement though. Had we gone for a more harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection I think people would be more unhappy. The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate. Essentially people will be unhappy if anything we do gets in the way or makes it more difficult for them to play FM. We understand that, which is why the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

But it is not "going online once" ! as stated above, what happens with patches? or the first day of activation?

i seriousley believe this is the wrong way to go!

[tom_numbers]

What happens when you need a patch... do you take it to your local hotspot and sit there for 4 hours waiting for the patch to download....ridiculous post

Surely you would have had to do the same thing without Steam anyway?

[dafuge]

I'm still pretty annoyed about that. Bring back FM09's activation!

Other than the release day debacle, that was my favourite system of the lot. By a mile.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Resource hungry? Steam only uses about 60mb of memory. It uses less than firefox, internet explorer and around the same or less as programs like msn messenger, mozilla thunderbird and windows media player.

Difference being that the above applications are actually useful for something. Steam will just be taking 60mb to sit there in the background, doing absolutely nothing of relevance. That is excessive.

[Ackter]

I find the claim that this is essentially a "once in a lifetime inconvenience" absurd. As if activating the game within steam was everything you did. Sorry, but it is not. Every time you want to launch football manager you have to start steam, type in your password (if you dont want any other user of the same computer to have access to your steam account), wait for it to log in, click away the splash screens and weekly offers, find your games and FINALLY click launch. All this assumes that steam is actually working that day. Worst case scenario steam gives you a cryptic "we are sorry, but your game is unavailable" or wont connect at all (and refuse to go into offline mode)

And yes, the list of things to do is slightly exaggerated, but even the best case scenarios is far from a once-in-a-lifetime-activation.

If you create a shortcut to your desktop for FM it bypasses all of that and launches both Steam and FM at the same time. The only time the adverts pop up is when you close Steam now, and you can avoid that by turning your computer off without turning off Steam.

[RorysRocketThrow]

SEGA have been looking into this for some time, with some people that are pretty expert in the piracy and protection area. They're well aware of the limitations and success of STEAM so far.

After looking into it, we're pretty confident that we have a solution in place that will protect the game. And that for FM12 Steam is a viable method of reducing and at the very least significantly delaying piracy.

I personally disagree with the last statement though. Had we gone for a more harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection I think people would be more unhappy. The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate. Essentially people will be unhappy if anything we do gets in the way or makes it more difficult for them to play FM. We understand that, which is why the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

As a programmer myself, I totally understand the sheer frustration with piracy. Really I do. Thats only on a small scale aswell.

My point is what about the people who are genuinely concerned about Steam, or just blatantly do not want or do not feel the need to use Steam because of past experiences and will not buy the game because of this decision - many of whom have bought the game previously long before Sega's involvement with Sports Interactive?

Are you saying you are quite happy to see them walk away?

Are you saying you are not happy to see them walk away but 'tough' because this is the decision we have made?

What about the people who don't have a choice? What about the little man in the street who doesn't have internet, who doesn't live close enough to a 'hotspot'?

[bcooper]

Steam games are pirated on day 0.

Pirates will be able to play on day of release.

How will steam, a platform that has its copy protection cracked on a regular basis DRAMATICALLY reduce piracy ?

We're hardly going to answer that to be fair. It'd be like saying "I've protected my valuables." Then saying "they're in a combination safe, in the basement. The safe is made by Yale and has 8 digits in the combination, no two numbers next to each other in the combination are the same. It's in the basement under a blanket". We think it will protect the game, we're not going to tell you how!

[kwillett]

Not at all... without steam, once a patch has been downloaded (say by a friend) it can be installed from any media.

[Lord Rowell]

Had we gone for a more harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection I think people would be more unhappy. The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate. Essentially people will be unhappy if anything we do gets in the way or makes it more difficult for them to play FM. We understand that, which is why the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

Yes, if you're gone for a harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection, people would be more unhappy. But just because SI have chosen the least of 2 evils doesn't stop it from being an evil.

As for your comment about the disc in the drive re. FM10, that was an annoying inconvenience for some. What SI have created now is a barrier to access. The latter is far more serious.

[Kriss]

So any counter discussion is automatically invalid & those of us who do not want to install Steam or are unsure due to past bad experiences should just STFU & walk away without voicing our concerns?

Well cheers mate, I'll just crawl back under the woodwork that I've been hiding in for the last 4 years expect I haven't & if you've read some of my posts on the blogs I was until this afternoon really looking forward to this game.

You can have a look at Steam in a few minutes then uninstall it if you catch it installing cameras in your bedroom:D what bewilders is me is the mass hysteria from people who only think it might be a bad thing from the bad PR a few people are giving it.

The personal security excuse for not using it is hogwash, it's risk free compared with many apps that everybody uses every day.

[Chris Ritchie]

the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

But that's not what Steam is. It's going online once and installing software that's neither needed nor wanted for a large number of your customers. There are options out there that genuinely do mean going online once and activating the game but you're not giving anyone the option.

[Siven]

What happens when you need a patch... do you take it to your local hotspot and sit there for 4 hours waiting for the patch to download....ridiculous post

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

[leftback in the changing room]

Well thank you SI and Sega. I have no interest in the 'benefits' of Steam. It is not installed on my PC. I actively avoid purchasing the likes of Civ 5 and the latter Total War games due to their insistence on activation through Steam. And now I have to actively avoid purchasing my favourite PC game; a game I have spent the best part of two decades playing.

Not because of the activation. But simply because nobody seems to be able to answer the simple question, posted several times so far: "If Steam is operating in offline mode, will it not interfere with my PC?" Because so far the answers are "Yes, except when it asks you why you aren't connected to the internet, or it randomly drops you out of whatever you are doing". So the answer is 'no'. And after wasting hours fixing my PC because my antivirus broke down whenever it automatically updated at the same time as Windows Update was in action, I'm very loath to run anything that doesn't know when to stay shut down.

So if somebody can assure me that when not connected to the internet, and with Steam in offline mode, it does nothing but sit quietly on my hard drive then I'll reconsider. I don't care if that's considered a luddite view.

[vlobben]

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

As written above, have a friend download it on a usb memory stick and bring it over. It's what I used to do some years ago at least

[Chris Ritchie]

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

Get your mate to put it on a USB stick?

[SLO_Fila]

We're hardly going to answer that to be fair. It'd be like saying "I've protected my valuables." Then saying "they're in a combination safe, in the basement. The safe is made by Yale and has 8 digits in the combination, no two numbers next to each other in the combination are the same. It's in the basement under a blanket". We think it will protect the game, we're not going to tell you how!

I know what steam will protect the game from and it's not really the piracy you are after (since you know it will be pirated anyway). 2nd hand sales that's what you are after and lately the game industry is treating the used games sales as something worse than piracy.

[bcooper]

I'll ask again - play or download? Because they're quite clearly not the same thing. Do you have statistics on length of time spent playing illegal copies of the game?

To be honest, no we don't. We have some pretty good stats on people that play pirated games, but not if they are playing for 10 minutes or 100 hours. We don't have stats about how long people that play the game off the disc play for either. But we have plenty of information to say that a lot of people that pirate the game are pretty passionate about the game and play it a lot. It's not absolutely nailed on in fact, but it's pretty much beyond reasonable doubt that the number of people that pirate the game and play it regularly is well over 7 figures.

[Lord Rowell]

You can have a look at Steam in a few minutes then uninstall it if you catch it installing cameras in your bedroom:D what bewilders is me is the mass hysteria from people who only think it might be a bad thing from the bad PR a few people are giving it.

The personal security excuse for not using it is hogwash, it's risk free compared with many apps that everybody uses every day.

I haven't seen mass hysteria here. I've seen people expressing a number of concerns about Steam, personal choice, and access issues.

You are using a straw man (misrepresenting people's arguments) here and it is, IMO, a disappointing way to engage with your customers.

[bcooper]

Perhaps you should fire those people who think its going to help against piracy. Its quite obvious they are incompetent.

Without knowing what those people know, that's a pretty hollow statement to be fair.

[SeanNUFC]

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

Aye, well said.

Now, onto the next argument.

[TacticalGenius]

All these people p*ssing and moaning about not having internet to activate, why? You have enough internet to come on here and whine about it...

[dafuge]

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

Send a telegram to a friend to send it via carrier pigeon

[Ackter]

All these people p*ssing and moaning about not having internet to activate, why? You have enough internet to come on here and whine about it...

You'll be surprised how many people are on here with their phones.

[roykela]

Aye, well said.

Now, onto the next argument.

Put the patch on a USB stick would probably be a common way.

But can that be done if it's through Steam?

[SeanNUFC]

Send a telegram to a friend to send it via carrier pigeon

.

[Guest]

You can have a look at Steam in a few minutes then uninstall it if you catch it installing cameras in your bedroom:D what bewilders is me is the mass hysteria from people who only think it might be a bad thing from the bad PR a few people are giving it.

The personal security excuse for not using it is hogwash, it's risk free compared with many apps that everybody uses every day.

Kriss, I am going to research for more feedback on Steam, when I first installed it for FM08 it was utter garbage & caused umpteen compatability issues with other programmes so TBH I do not trust it one bit & now I'm reading a few people posting about it trying to force itself back online, now this might just be a few problems with setup but I'm afraid it does not inspire me with confidence.

Basically from a PR point of view SI & SEGA have dropped the ball on this one, as I posted a little earlier this should have been made public months ago so that the reaction could be assessed & also allow for realted issues to be brought up & overcome.