Player Development & Newgens

[numbas2]

I've reached 9 years in the future and for the past few seasons (and definitely now) I have found it really difficult to find top class players, either established or in between raw and first team top league ready with potential. 

For example if I search a position on "within scouting range", select the attributes per position and the value to 15, the results are 95% the world class players from today but aged 27+. 

When I lower the value of attribute to 14, 13, 12 etc, and/or the number matching (say 11 of 15 attributes, then 10, 9 etc) the numbers of players barely go up (then jump up to high number of average/below average players) and drop off in quality is noticeable. 

It's like since the game started no players have progressed from age 18/19 to become elite/world class. There are few exceptions, and some almost out of the box regens who are great. 

My teams have ended up being built on aging stars except those I have managed to find and  developed. The AI obvious have a few themselves too. 

Save game created 10/12/22. I've got large database, 85k players across 12 playable nations and 24 playable leagues. Full scouting network and knowledge of everywhere. 

It just doesn't feel like it usually does. I usually have one or two saves per FM and go to 2040-50. I even played with a slightly bigger database on this FM than I have done in the past. I move clubs and build teams so this is really frustrating. 

I've read some feedback on the Web about something like this. And some relating to the beta. 

Am I alone? 

Thanks! 

Edited February 19, 2023 by numbas2

[Platinum]

Yeah it is an issue, hopefully it's fixed in the winter update

[Zapoleon]

It's part of a known issue. They tried to fix it in the last patch, but it remains a problem. The hope is its improved on for the feb/march update. 

[rp1966]

It's a major problem with the game at present - probably the biggest (and there's lots to choose from).  Young players just aren't progressing in the U18s/u23s/B team in sufficient numbers to a level where the AI will pick them for the first team so their development stalls.  The issue is a combination of raw development and reputation (who'd have thought something in FM was broken because of reputation!) .  The player can overcome it to an extent by micromanaging all aspects of youth development, but even then the reputation issue may prevent players getting loan placements that will help them develop,  If you're a casual player who doesn't micromanage the youth teams, you're in the same boat as the AI - unless they were generated first-team ready your newgens will not develop to a level where you'll want to choose them for the first-team.  Again, you can force the issue and they may turn into a useful first-teamer, but players getting flagged as first-team ready in the development centre rarely are and certainly seem less developed than in previous editions.

All of this is amplified by the fact that there are far too many high CA, high reputation >35 year olds hanging about populating all the big teams and shutting out younger players.  

Edited February 20, 2023 by rp1966

[phnompenhandy]

The modded files by Daveincid help a lot, but you'd have to start a new save with them.

[andu1]

1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

The modded files by Daveincid help a lot, but you'd have to start a new save with them.

They do?good to know and I will give it a try if they fail to address the issue with the update

[Maviarab]

I'd also add, while there is a known issue, exactly how many world class/elite/16/17yo's ready for the first team do you expect to see?  Hate to say it (and I agree there is an issue) but there really isn't that many in real life either.

On another side note (and yes this has been discussed to death already), with modern fitness etc etcm, top elite players actually are playing longer than they used to say 30 years ago.  delicate balance for Si to resolve in terms of realism and gameplay.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Maviarab

[MrBigT]

If one was to play long enough for the current players to retire (lets say 20 seasons) would this issue still occur? Do you get to a point where all the players are average or does the timeline then force the AI to play younger players and they develop (thus creating a new cycle of up to great players and the next gen of 18/19 y/o don't develop)?

[numbas2]

1 hour ago, Maviarab said:

I'd also add, while there is a known issue, exactly how many world class/elite/16/17yo's ready for the first team do you expect to see?  Hate to say it (and I agree there is an issue) but there really isn't that many in real life either.

On another side note (and yes this has been discussed to death already), with modern fitness etc etcm, top elite players actually are playing longer than they used to say 30 years ago.  delicate balance for Si to resolve in terms of realism and gameplay.

Not out the box too quality but they need to be generated and progress to that level. There should be a similar mix of player quality across all ages as there is in today's game. 

[numbas2]

Thanks for all your responses. This is gutting. 

I will have a look at the other database. 

[Verby]

14 hours ago, Zapoleon said:

It's part of a known issue. They tried to fix it in the last patch, but it remains a problem. The hope is its improved on for the feb/march update. 

Its actually kind of disgusting we have to wait until March to get a fix for this. One of the core mechanics in the game is broken since release. 

[Maviarab]

1 hour ago, numbas2 said:

Not out the box too quality but they need to be generated and progress to that level. There should be a similar mix of player quality across all ages as there is in today's game. 

Again, not saying there is not a problem as there is somewhat, but the vast majority of players never reach that level.  Good level yes, top class?  No.  So again, what exactly are you expecting?  Remember (again) there's 10x more champ level players (and probably 250x below) than there are 'top level'...

Edited February 20, 2023 by Maviarab

[numbas2]

I've got quite annoyed about this since my last post. 

Have SI said anything directly to this issue? Or could they? It's a game breaker... For me anyway! 

[Overmars]

I can understand elite clubs favoring established veterans, but the biggest problem to me is that medium-sized clubs and feeder clubs keep favoring veterans too. A team such as Vitesse is playing in the Dutch Eredivisie and not competing for silverware, yet they don't bother developing young players in FM. In real life, Vitesse's average first team age is 23.6. In 2030 of my Dutch FM save, Vitesse is still in the Eredivisie and has just one first team player under 24. Their average first team age is closer to 28. There are plenty of other examples of these sorts of clubs sticking with veterans.

So where are the breakthrough prospects? Vitesse has some of their own, but they are all vastly inferior to the veterans on their squad. Anyone decent is being bought by the big clubs who then destroy those kids' careers by:

1. Not playing them
2. Expecting silly monthly loan fees which stifles the loan market
3. Maintaining a ridiculously high transfer fee expectation so no other team can buy and rescue the kids' careers

Prospects are getting funneled too soon to teams they can't play for, and the loan market just isn't able to remedy the situation on a large enough scale. There are lots of young Dutch players with high potential, but most are rotting in the Ajax, PSV, and Feyenoord reserves instead of playing for smaller clubs such as Vitesse.

[Wealthy individual]

I found a 198 PA 24 year old in PSGs reserves, listed as unavailable for loans. In real life these clubs have loan armies, but in FM they're hiding Messi's reincarnation away, making sure that he will never develop

[TheAwesomeGem]

Known issue sadly.

[numbas2]

@Neil Brock Hi Neil, is that right, this is a known issue? I think I've seen mention of fixes to newgen and player development in a patch release. Will a new save resolve the problem or if not is this something that is being investigated? Thank you and sorry I've picked on you I just ventured into the bug forum! 

[abcdf]

I have opened countless tickets on the bug tracker about this.

I advise you guys to do so as well in order to make SI prioritize it.

I have stopped playing the game because of how bad the AI is at developing youngsters, they just leave them to rot in the reserves for years and a result young players do not develop, and you end up with a database full of 30 something years old if you progress the save long enough.

the ridicoulous thing is that this issue has not been fixed yet, and the game has been out for more than 4 months

Edited February 21, 2023 by abcdf

[Chewy82*]

On 20/02/2023 at 09:34, andu1 said:

They do?good to know and I will give it a try if they fail to address the issue with the update

Yeh exactly what I'm doing, got 40 year olds playing a whole season in the prem 🤣🤣

[abcdf]

These are some of the tickets I opened on the subject. Feel free to read/add your own findings/ideas to them.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by abcdf

[Overmars]

I am simming through the 2030 World Cup in my save, and the English national team has zero newgens in its starting lineup. Nine of these players are 30+ years old.

England lost the quarterfinal on penalties, so the game does still feel real in that aspect. Alexander-Arnold was the sole penalty miss.

Here are some other World Cup squads with zero newgens in their starting eleven: The Netherlands, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Austria, Bosnia, and Poland. The only newgens playing in the tournament seem to be from nations whose leagues I have not loaded.

[Reflection86]

I played Chelsea in 2029 recently and every single player in the starting 11 was at the club in 2022! Their line up includes a 35 year old mendy, 35yo Lukaku, 34yo kovacic, 38yo kante, 32yo chilwell etc. Clubs are embarrasingly bad at bringing players through in this years game. Its so broken I've stopped playing.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Reflection86

[numbas2]

Yes similar for my save. I am hoping someone from SI could acknowledge the issue as I feel my save is basically now on its last legs in 2032. Why start again for the same result. I'm a bit of an addict so it's really gutting!

[numbas2]

 

Found it. Cry face

[MatchWinner]

This has been a massive problem for years - not just this year's game.  It can only be a deliberate choice to discourage long term games as it is such an obvious problem when you just can't find any genuine quality youth coming through after 4 - 5 years.

 

Biggest single issue with FM for me...

[albertocerdeira.4]

SI has decided to do the youth development like this... And that's all.

 

More than a year with the issue being known and they didn't solve it, because they don't want and they don't care about the long term saves. If you have already paid for the game you are useless now.

But wait for somebody to tell you that the game balance is ok when in 2034 70% of big teams have a medium age of 32-33

[Dotsworthy]

On 22/02/2023 at 21:17, numbas2 said:

 

Found it. Cry face

Looked at Davidincid's db which helps resolve the issue. SI are aware of the issue so maybe they will rectify it in this upcoming patch

[Platinum]

2 hours ago, MatchWinner said:

This has been a massive problem for years - not just this year's game.  It can only be a deliberate choice to discourage long term games as it is such an obvious problem when you just can't find any genuine quality youth coming through after 4 - 5 years.

 

Biggest single issue with FM for me...

Its not deliberate, it's a known issue 

[Dotsworthy]

2 hours ago, MatchWinner said:

This has been a massive problem for years - not just this year's game.  It can only be a deliberate choice to discourage long term games as it is such an obvious problem when you just can't find any genuine quality youth coming through after 4 - 5 years.

 

Biggest single issue with FM for me...

This is hyperbolic. This has only been an issue since FM22 because of the changes to youth growth and player decline over the age of 30. It also doesn't affect all leagues.

It is an issue for sure, but SI made steps to rectify it.

[MatchWinner]

On 23/02/2023 at 22:27, Dotsworthy said:

This is hyperbolic. This has only been an issue since FM22 because of the changes to youth growth and player decline over the age of 30. It also doesn't affect all leagues.

It is an issue for sure, but SI made steps to rectify it.

NO IT ISN'T hyperbolic.  FM22/23 may have more issues than ever, but to imply that previous games have produced a regular stock of top quality new players is just fanciful.

[Nacaw]

1 hour ago, MatchWinner said:

NO IT ISN'T hyperbolic.  FM22/23 may have more issues than ever, but to imply that previous games have produced a regular stock of top quality new players is just fanciful.

Games prior to FM 22 did not have these issues. In fact, nearly all previous releases had newgens replace old established players way too fast and it was easy to fully develop players at 19/20 years old. You could buy EPL stars (not potential stars) from Brazil/Argentina on the cheap just a couple of seasons in. FM 22 had a good balance imo, but everyone can agree that FM 23 made it too difficult to bring youngsters through. 

 

[Andy1979]

I have gone back to playing fm 21. They need to stop adding new features until they get what's in the game working properly. I have bought every copy of fm but I am genuinely thinking of holding off 2024. 

[XaW]

5 hours ago, MatchWinner said:

NO IT ISN'T hyperbolic.  FM22/23 may have more issues than ever, but to imply that previous games have produced a regular stock of top quality new players is just fanciful.

Pre-FM22 the game had the issue of newgens being too good too fast and older players fell of a cliff when they got 32, so no it was not like that up until FM22.

Also, currently, the production of newgens is fine, and the progression is fine up until about 20, that's where the issue starts, as teams often play the older player rather than give youngsters any chances. So as many has pointed out here before, the issue is not with the player development in isolation, but most towards how AI managers pick too dependent on player reputation rather than skill or talent. There has been some excellent reports around this, and the current version is BETTER than it was at launch, but still not good enough in my view. I hope the next updates will remedy this, or at least push it even further towards a good balance.

[Razor940]

I don't know where those issues were in FM22. The problem with newgens was that they exploded too early and a lot of them had horrible attribute distribution, For example, at some points it was kinda hard to find strikers that didn't have the distribution of a winger with no finishing.

[StevehFC]

If they don’t fix this in the last patch, then they won’t get another penny from me until it is fixed. 

[TheAwesomeGem]

I have a feeling they won't address this until FM 24. There needs to be major overhaul in how Manager AI picks players, how AI loans out players and how youth reputation grows to properly fix this. Any other short-term fixes would just be a bandaid at this point.

[jcp1417]

No, you are not alone. Other players have also reported difficulties in finding top-class players in the later stages of Football Manager saves, especially after 10 years or more. This is partly due to the fact that the game's regen system is not perfect and can result in fewer high-quality players being generated over time.

One possible solution is to increase the database size or add more playable leagues, which can result in more players being generated over time. Another option is to focus on developing young players yourself, through your youth academy or scouting network, rather than relying solely on the transfer market.

You can also try to focus on finding players with high potential, rather than just those who are already established stars. These players may require more time and development, but can become world-class players over time if they are given the right training and opportunities.

 

[abcdf]

9 hours ago, TheAwesomeGem said:

I have a feeling they won't address this until FM 24. There needs to be major overhaul in how Manager AI picks players, how AI loans out players and how youth reputation grows to properly fix this. Any other short-term fixes would just be a bandaid at this point.

May be, but it would be completely unacceptable. 
The game at this stage is completely unplayable because of this. If it doesn’t get addressed NOW, this is the last time they ever get a penny from me.

Never seen a game being released this broken on a core mechanic and not fixed.

Edited February 26, 2023 by XaW
language

[XaW]

@abcdf - I edited your post. Being annoyed about this is perfectly fine, but don't step over the line, please.

[JamieTC13]

This issue is ruining the game for me, it's so unacceptable to have to wait this long for such a big part of the game to be fixed. I really hope it will be fixed fully for the winter update patch.

[albertocerdeira.4]

FM's franchise is in their best moment of all time in terms of sales, so I can understand they don't really care about this.

 

For me they have lost all the credit they had after having INTENTIONALLY broken one of their core features, because the problem is reported for a long long time. They have the money (our money) to put a bunch of resources into this and they didn't wanted to do it, so for me it's impossible to trust the franchise, Miles and Neil never more

[DarJ]

3 minutes ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

INTENTIONALLY

Why would any company intentionally put out something that could have a negative impact on their reputation and finances?

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 1 minuto, DarJ dijo:

Why would any company intentionally put out something that could have a negative impact on their reputation and finances?

They don't make the mistake in programming that intentionally, but they dont do what is needed to fix the problem (put the work and the resources until you fix the issue) intentionally. SI simply prefers to put their resources into another areas. They have enough money and sales to not care about us. There is no possible excuse to not fix something you easily see at early stages after two betas and two full releases, with more or less 10 patches in the process. There isn't and there won't be. It's pure laziness and I can understand it as they make millions this way.

[CFuller]

6 minutes ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

They don't make the mistake in programming that intentionally, but they dont do what is needed to fix the problem (put the work and the resources until you fix the issue) intentionally. SI simply prefers to put their resources into another areas. They have enough money and sales to not care about us. There is no possible excuse to not fix something you easily see at early stages after two betas and two full releases, with more or less 10 patches in the process. There isn't and there won't be. It's pure laziness and I can understand it as they make millions this way.

Or perhaps the issues with player development are tougher to nail down and need more extensive testing than you think they do. These things need to be balanced out carefully - go too far the other way, for example, and you might have a repeat of FM21, where young players grew far too quickly and older players became useless when they turned 32.

Just because they haven't fixed this already does not mean they can't be bothered. I'd be very careful about using terms like "pure laziness" if I were you.

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 6 horas, CFuller dijo:

Or perhaps the issues with player development are tougher to nail down and need more extensive testing than you think they do. These things need to be balanced out carefully - go too far the other way, for example, and you might have a repeat of FM21, where young players grew far too quickly and older players became useless when they turned 32.

Just because they haven't fixed this already does not mean they can't be bothered. I'd be very careful about using terms like "pure laziness" if I were you.

The topic about this is where SI want to put their resources. If they have, for example, 500 hours of work and SI prefers to put hours into making a squad planner and making a Manager timeline instead of solve a known and, for a lot of people, crucial issue it's ok. It's their game and I'm free to put or not my money into it.

 

But for me, something like this issue, that is as easy to see as simulate ten campaigns into the game and see the biggest national teams and the bigges clubs, is it not acceptable. SI releases this years game being COMPLETELY AWARE of this issue, a issue reported last year, an issue reported in the beta and an issue reported after the full release and it's almost March and the issue it's still there.

 

If you have almost one year and a half and you didn't fix an issue making excuses as "we have to be careful, we can compromise long term stability" when the long term stability is already broken what they are doing is to make laugh of all of us and treating us like idiots. There is no excuse for a game to have a crucial issue for one year and a half without being solved.

[abcdf]

14 ore fa, CFuller ha scritto:

Or perhaps the issues with player development are tougher to nail down and need more extensive testing than you think they do. These things need to be balanced out carefully - go too far the other way, for example, and you might have a repeat of FM21, where young players grew far too quickly and older players became useless when they turned 32.

Just because they haven't fixed this already does not mean they can't be bothered. I'd be very careful about using terms like "pure laziness" if I were you.

When I buy the game, i pay full price and expect to have delivered the product I paid for. I don’t care how many hours it takes and how difficult it is to solve something that makes it unplayable. It is not my problem. If you are not confident you can handle it, stop producing games.

If you release something broken, then give it to me for half the price, otherwise you get what you expect (the money) and I do not (a playable game).

And this is not a fair transaction.

Why do always customers need to get the short end of the stick?

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by abcdf

[Maviarab]

1 hour ago, abcdf said:

When I buy the game, i pay full price and expect to have delivered the product I paid for. I don’t care how many hours it takes and how difficult it is to solve something that makes it unplayable. It is not my problem. If you are not confident you can handle it, stop producing games.

If you release something broken, then give it to me for half the price, otherwise you get what you expect (the money) and I do not (a playable game).

And this is not a fair transaction.

Why do always customers need to get the short end of the stick?

 

Welcome to the game industry over the last 20 years, and it's only getting worse.

 

15 hours ago, CFuller said:

Or perhaps the issues with player development are tougher to nail down and need more extensive testing than you think they do. These things need to be balanced out carefully - go too far the other way, for example, and you might have a repeat of FM21, where young players grew far too quickly and older players became useless when they turned 32.

Just because they haven't fixed this already does not mean they can't be bothered. I'd be very careful about using terms like "pure laziness" if I were you.

Soooo.....FM21 players retired too soon and newgens peaked too quick...now we have the complete opposite...soooo....

See where I'm going with this?....yeah...no....????

 

8 hours ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

The topic about this is where SI want to put their resources. If they have, for example, 500 hours of work and SI prefers to put hours into making a squad planner and making a Manager timeline instead of solve a known and, for a lot of people, crucial issue it's ok. It's their game and I'm free to put or not my money into it.

 

But for me, something like this issue, that is as easy to see as simulate ten campaigns into the game and see the biggest national teams and the bigges clubs, is it not acceptable. SI releases this years game being COMPLETELY AWARE of this issue, a issue reported last year, an issue reported in the beta and an issue reported after the full release and it's almost March and the issue it's still there.

 

If you have almost one year and a half and you didn't fix an issue making excuses as "we have to be careful, we can compromise long term stability" when the long term stability is already broken what they are doing is to make laugh of all of us and treating us like idiots. There is no excuse for a game to have a crucial issue for one year and a half without being solved.

There are issues present that were present 10+ years ago.....but people keep buying it...they keep making their millions....so....

This is like people whining aboutt capatalism and hating rich folk...stop buying their shizz then (which people probably don't need anyway), rich corps get rich because people buy their stuff.....ain't rocket science is it...or maybe it is lol

Human nature, nothing will change, people will keep wasting money, complain they broke, complain about the people they make rich. *shrugs*

I'm done with FM now until the womens game is added, as on a final hope, the changes required, it will be a completely brand new game and not something existing off the code of Champ Man 20 years ago.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Maviarab

[Zachary Whyte]

Hey everyone, our upcoming update will include some changes regarding player development.

As mentioned above by a few users it's a delicate issue to balance. Many factors have to be taken into account, it's not as simple as just raising/lowering reputation. 

Also, in real life a lot of players are mismanaged or do not fully develop, (often stagnating) Dele Alli is a good example. Not every high potential Newgen can become Messi, some might end up like Bojan. 

Player development is something we're constantly evaluating as part of our long term game AI strategy. When our update drops we'd love to hear your feedback.

[Domoboy23]

12 minutes ago, Zachary Whyte said:

Hey everyone, our upcoming update will include some changes regarding player development.

As mentioned above by a few users it's a delicate issue to balance. Many factors have to be taken into account, it's not as simple as just raising/lowering reputation. 

Also, in real life a lot of players are mismanaged or do not fully develop, (often stagnating) Dele Alli is a good example. Not every high potential Newgen can become Messi, some might end up like Bojan. 

Player development is something we're constantly evaluating as part of our long term game AI strategy. When our update drops we'd love to hear your feedback.

Bojan right now: 

[abcdf]

1 ora fa, Zachary Whyte ha scritto:

Hey everyone, our upcoming update will include some changes regarding player development.

As mentioned above by a few users it's a delicate issue to balance. Many factors have to be taken into account, it's not as simple as just raising/lowering reputation. 

Also, in real life a lot of players are mismanaged or do not fully develop, (often stagnating) Dele Alli is a good example. Not every high potential Newgen can become Messi, some might end up like Bojan. 

Player development is something we're constantly evaluating as part of our long term game AI strategy. When our update drops we'd love to hear your feedback.

Ok but Dele Alli did not become a terrible player because his manager left him to rust in the reserves team until he was 25 years of age. He did because he is highly unprofessional and Some component of bad luck.

That is was happens in the game, and it does not happen in reality because teams are not dumb to leave their prospects to rot for years without playing

 

is the AI not loaning players going to be addressed? Is the low demand for loans going to be addressed? These are all factors that contribute to the terrible development we have seen.

all of this preempitng sounds to me like the issue is not going to get tackled during this update either. Which would be a shame

Edited February 28, 2023 by abcdf