Brexit in FM21

[Jonthedon26]

1 minute ago, nb9 said:

To the know it alls: Did you actually read the article?

Nowhere in that does it state the Brexit will be anything like what SI have implemented, it is a points based system - that is all that we know from it and that's all we knew from before. Nowhere does it state a player cannot get a work permit if they have no international caps, youth caps, or whatever else. It is all decided by an exceptions panel, all clubs will have to do is ensure the player is to a high enough quality for the club signing them.

In fact, there are no specifics in that at all - and because all the parties involved had such an easy time figuring the outcome would mean to me it is favourable for the clubs recruiting.

I agree, neither the article, or FM21 explain HOW the points system works and the weightings, so really we are still in the dark about it all. All I care for is an explanatipn of how the points are distributed in the game, and how close/far away a player is from obtaining a WP. 

[nb9]

Just now, Amarante said:

You can't really read can you?

How do you think the point based system is judged by? 

Literally Whats in my Brexit save right now

Where does it state how many points you need, or how strict it is going to be?

Hint: It doesn't state it anywhere, and it certainly won't be as harsh as the SI fairytale - you will see this as the years go by.

[Jonthedon26]

1 minute ago, Amarante said:

You can't really read can you?

How do you think the point based system is judged by? 

Literally Whats in my Brexit save right now

Can I just ask again, do youth international caps count in game? I'm sure I read somewhere they don't.

[Amarante]

Just now, Jonthedon26 said:

Can I just ask again, do youth international caps count in game? I'm sure I read somewhere they don't.

I'm not sure wether in game it takes youth caps into it. But SI wasn't far off, the only thing we don't know is how many points and guess what no one is gonna know that bar the clubs and the UK Home Office. 

Just now, nb9 said:

Where does it state how many points you need, or how strict it is going to be?

Hint: It doesn't state it anywhere, and it certainly won't be as harsh as the SI fairytale - you will see this as the years go by.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement That will tell you how points are given. Football will have a extra section to consider but thats that. 

[nb9]

1 minute ago, Jonthedon26 said:

Can I just ask again, do youth international caps count in game? I'm sure I read somewhere they don't.

No, they don't. But SI clearly have contacts inside the game and know exactly what is going to happen 

[TioPatinhax]

Here it is the official version of Brexit: https://t.co/ikRTTqR4BE

Unfortunately, I didnt get any of this on my save.

[Jonthedon26]

3 minutes ago, nb9 said:

No, they don't. But SI clearly have contacts inside the game and know exactly what is going to happen 

If they don't it would be a real help if this could be implemented. 

[Junkhead]

1 hour ago, nb9 said:

Quoting hidden post due to offensive language

The article literally says that they will have a work permit, it's just called something else.

The article doesn't clarify how many points are required, or how many points are gained in certain scenarios. It gives no indication as to what will be considered an acceptable league or club stature, and generally gives very little info full stop.

So ALL we have learned is that the work permit system for football is called something else, and that's it.

There are still permits required to play here.

It is still a points based system.

What I will say is that there is no mention of the 17 foreigner rule - so maybe we have learned that this part of the SI brexit rules is inaccurate, at least.

 

 

[Amarante]

2 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

The article literally says that they will have a work permit, it's just called something else.

The article doesn't clarify how many points are required, or how many points are gained in certain scenarios. It gives no indication as to what will be considered an acceptable league or club stature, and generally gives very little info full stop.

So ALL we have learned is that the work permit system for football is called something else, and that's it.

There are still permits required to play here.

It is still a points based system.

What I will say is that there is no mention of the 17 foreigner rule - so maybe we have learned that this part of the SI brexit rules is inaccurate, at least.

 

 

But we always knew that one of them were gonna be true and the Work Permit system was the most likely to happen. 

[Junkhead]

17 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

Here it is the official version of Brexit: https://t.co/ikRTTqR4BE

Unfortunately, I didnt get any of this on my save.

The links at the bottom of this page are excellent - seems things are not sketchy at all. A full 36 page document about how things will work which gives loads of detail. 

 

Page 12 &13 of the document at the bottom re the mens game starts breaking the points down. Very clear. Would be interested to see how many players who didn't get a permit in FM would get one IRL and vice versa.

Only had a quick browse but looks to me like Scandinavian players are likely to be heavily negatively impacted unless they are playing in a big European league.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Junkhead
Further info

[paddypower]

FA guide to WP

https://t.co/5vTaXmuY5O?amp=1

Looks like if you played in a top 5 euro league you are almost certain to qualify. You get 12 points for being part of those squads and if you play 30+% of the minutes you get at a minimum 4 points which puts a player over the 15 point hurdle.

 

[nb9]

8 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

The article literally says that they will have a work permit, it's just called something else.

The article doesn't clarify how many points are required, or how many points are gained in certain scenarios. It gives no indication as to what will be considered an acceptable league or club stature, and generally gives very little info full stop.

So ALL we have learned is that the work permit system for football is called something else, and that's it.

There are still permits required to play here.

It is still a points based system.

What I will say is that there is no mention of the 17 foreigner rule - so maybe we have learned that this part of the SI brexit rules is inaccurate, at least.

 

 

Yes - a special measure - which was always going to happen with an industry like football. For people to believe we are not going to let any player in the country unless they play almost every game for a top international nation is utter lunacy.

[LolloViola]

Funny thing is that other choices about FM21 (especially UI-related) have been justified with "realism"...

[Junkhead]

Just now, nb9 said:

Yes - a special measure - which was always going to happen with an industry like football. For people to believe we are not going to let any player in the country unless they play almost every game for a top international nation is utter lunacy.

However if you look at the rules in more detail you will see that unless a player is playing for a national team in the top 50 of the world rankings it is highly unlikely he will end up here unless he is playing if a top league also.

100% international appearances in the required period for the international team in 51st place equates to 2 points towards the 15. For example, right now, that would apply to Bosnia, Greece, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Slovenia, etc.

So an established Greek international playing at a top end Austrian, Swiss or Greek club would be borderline at best.

It is a considerable change.

 

[WeePaul]

 

[nb9]

1 minute ago, Junkhead said:

However if you look at the rules in more detail you will see that unless a player is playing for a national team in the top 50 of the world rankings it is highly unlikely he will end up here unless he is playing if a top league also.

100% international appearances in the required period for the international team in 51st place equates to 2 points towards the 15. For example, right now, that would apply to Bosnia, Greece, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Slovenia, etc.

So an established Greek international playing at a top end Austrian, Swiss or Greek club would be borderline at best.

It is a considerable change.

 

But it is NOTHING like the current system SI has implemented, which is what this whole discussion has been about.

And borderline cases go to the panel, which we will have no idea how generous or harsh they are going to be on the panel.

Like I said at the very start of this thread, Brexit should have been LEFT OUT the game until it has formally been introduced. Now, our saves are stuck with a Brexit which is nothing like real life - which was expected when it was so strict in SI land.

[JordanMilly]

1 hour ago, Peter G said:

 

Sounds like the FM rules?

Sounds even more restrictive than the FM rules, since it prevents more than 3 u-21 foreign signings per transfer window, which FM doesn't do yet.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-player-signings-brexit-rules-age-b1764690.html

[TioPatinhax]

What about Scotland?

[nb9]

5 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

What about Scotland?

May possibly have their own rules, you will have to wait and see what they announce.

[Junkhead]

8 minutes ago, nb9 said:

But it is NOTHING like the current system SI has implemented, which is what this whole discussion has been about.

And borderline cases go to the panel, which we will have no idea how generous or harsh they are going to be on the panel.

Like I said at the very start of this thread, Brexit should have been LEFT OUT the game until it has formally been introduced. Now, our saves are stuck with a Brexit which is nothing like real life - which was expected when it was so strict in SI land.

Yeah, I get your point in respect of the game. Lots of people think it was too restrictive. I've not been playing in England, so my take in this thread has been against those who have this idea that things would just carry on as normal.

As an example, I support a Championship club. Under the rules the FA have just announced, four of our first 11 wouldn't have hit the ponts threshold. The only "foreign" player who would has English dual nationality.

So it would massively affect our first team, let alone the rest of the squad.

Those playing/supporting top teams are likely to see no such issues because of the standard of player involved.

As feared, knock on effects down the leagues will be massive.

[JordanMilly]

57 minutes ago, Amarante said:

If the FA plays like a bitch its just gonna force the bigger clubs to create a super league and they have nothing they can do or say about it. 

I mean, the FA would have something to say about it, because without their okay, a player wouldn't get a work permit, and so wouldn't be allowed to work in the UK, which means no employment contract for the player, which means they don't get to move here. That'd be the case whether the big clubs were playing in the Premier League or a European Super League.

[samdiatmh]

can't wait for the meltdown when people find out that the day-1 ingame Brexit was too lenient.... I guess it was unrealistic in a way :P (just not in the way that most people hoped)

 

better start the hoard now, because it's going to be even more challenging to sign players

Edited December 1, 2020 by samdiatmh

[TioPatinhax]

20 minutos atrás, WeePaul disse:

 

Savegame compatible?

[Gee_Simpson]

24 minutes ago, WeePaul said:

 

So there we have it, FM's interpretation was already pretty accurate 

[samdiatmh]

1 minute ago, TioPatinhax said:

Savegame compatible?

if you got the "points WP" (shown as the 2nd post in this thread), then it's VERY similar to what was actually implemented

might just be a hotfix to remove the "international WP" (the OP) - although no idea how that'll be savegame compatible

[Gee_Simpson]

Hopefully it's save game compatible as I was planning on starting either tonight or tomorrow.

[nb9]

9 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Yeah, I get your point in respect of the game. Lots of people think it was too restrictive. I've not been playing in England, so my take in this thread has been against those who have this idea that things would just carry on as normal.

As an example, I support a Championship club. Under the rules the FA have just announced, four of our first 11 wouldn't have hit the ponts threshold. The only "foreign" player who would has English dual nationality.

So it would massively affect our first team, let alone the rest of the squad.

Those playing/supporting top teams are likely to see no such issues because of the standard of player involved.

As feared, knock on effects down the leagues will be massive.

I support Forest too, I have never disputed that there will be some people that lose out. Forest won't be able to sign some sub par Greek player from the Albanian top flight (for the better lol), but the only market that second division clubs can now shop in is the UK market is completely false.

My dispute has always been SI's implementation of Brexit which I thought was wrong, and is wrong now the details are out. 

[Platinum]

29 minutes ago, WeePaul said:

 

Im about to read the in depth rule changes now but this doesn't sound great, from what Ive seen so far it needs more than a tweak to youth players and the pass mark. Eg the review panel if a player is between 12-14 points, the max of 2 u21 players in the first transfer window (only January, all other transfer windows have no limit), the points allocated to the top 50 leagues. These are substantial changes. Hopefully he is just trying to play it down.

In a programming sense they are small tweaks but in terms of the players that will be accepted it is a significant change.

[JordanMilly]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

What I will say is that there is no mention of the 17 foreigner rule - so maybe we have learned that this part of the SI brexit rules is inaccurate, at least.

That'd be squad registration rules, not work permit rules.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

 

51 minutes ago, nb9 said:

Like I said at the very start of this thread, Brexit should have been LEFT OUT the game until it has formally been introduced. Now, our saves are stuck with a Brexit which is nothing like real life - which was expected when it was so strict in SI land.

I think they should have implemented it, just make it generous so it wouldn't bother people.

Then they could tune it to be more restrictive as the information came to light. That would have made more sense IMO.

[Lawlore]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-player-signings-brexit-rules-age-b1764690.html

 

Quote

The Football Association has confirmed that Premier League and EFL clubs will not be able to sign foreign players until they are 18 under new regulations that will be introduced upon completion of the Brexit transition period, with all new signings from European Union nations requiring a work permit that will be allocated on a points-based system.

The new regulations, which have been approved by the Premier League and English Football League, will also see Premier League clubs limited to signing no more than three players under the age of 21 in any single transfer window, meaning no more than six per season, in an effort to help produce homegrown talent in the professional leagues.

 

[LolloViola]

After a quick reading seems to me that the new rule will be very similar to "old" FM mid-brexit WP point system scenario according to reputation and caps, only true difference is the limit of 6 u21 foreign players/year.

[Spedding]

28 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

Im about to read the in depth rule changes now but this doesn't sound great, from what Ive seen so far it needs more than a tweak to youth players and the pass mark. Eg the review panel if a player is between 12-14 points, the max of 2 u21 players in the first transfer window (only January, all other transfer windows have no limit), the points allocated to the top 50 leagues. These are substantial changes. Hopefully he is just trying to play it down.

In a programming sense they are small tweaks but in terms of the players that will be accepted it is a significant change.

Actually its 3 in January window and six per season thereafter also won't be able to sign players under 18

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Amarante said:

If the FA plays like a bitch its just gonna force the bigger clubs to create a super league and they have nothing they can do or say about it. 

Except none of those players would be able to play international football as it wouldn't be a ratified competition. This is partly why there's still not been a breakaway. 

[JordanMilly]

One thing we might see, for players who don't already speak English to at least a basic level, is transfers where they remain on loan at their home club for half a season while they take English lessons, since the UK government visa system now says that sports-people who will be on contract for over 24 months must be able to speak basic English (jump to Table 15 for the rules).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement

[samdiatmh]

I wonder what that language definition would be in FMspeak - would "basic" be suffice, or would you need "good" or better?

[JordanMilly]

1 minute ago, samdiatmh said:

I wonder what that language definition would be in FMspeak - would "basic" be suffice, or would you need "good" or better?

Looking at the actual requirements of the A1 level of English, it'd just be "basic": http://www.englishprofile.org/the-cefr/cefr-for-teachers-learners

However, per the rules, they'd still have to demonstrate that knowledge (likely through some sort of English test):
 

Quote

A sportsperson remaining in the UK for more than a 24-month continuous period, must demonstrate a knowledge of English equivalent to level A1 or above of the Council of Europe’s Common European Framework for Language Learning; or have an academic qualification that was taught in English and is recognised by UK NARIC as being equivalent to a UK bachelor’s degree, master’s degree or PhD.

 

[Showerman]

1 hour ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Sounds even more restrictive than the FM rules, since it prevents more than 3 u-21 foreign signings per transfer window, which FM doesn't do yet.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-player-signings-brexit-rules-age-b1764690.html

 

28 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

One thing we might see, for players who don't already speak English to at least a basic level, is transfers where they remain on loan at their home club for half a season while they take English lessons, since the UK government visa system now says that sports-people who will be on contract for over 24 months must be able to speak basic English (jump to Table 15 for the rules).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement/uk-points-based-immigration-system-further-details-statement

These are game changers, could make doing a lower league save a good challenge for once.

Real word going to be a shambles though lol

[Travis Bickle]

I hope SI will implement these changes ASAP. 

[anderson36015]

1 hour ago, WeePaul said:

 

22 hours ago, samdiatmh said:

 

Does the tweet from Miles seem to say it was a legal thing, and this is why it isn't clear in game? 

Like they've been told what the rules would be but weren't allowed to say for legal reasons? 

Might be made clearer now it's official

[Platinum]

2 minutes ago, Showerman said:

 

These are game changers, could make doing a lower league save a good challenge for once.

Real word going to be a shambles though lol

I doubt this will be implemented in FM. In real life you would tell the player to learn the language, unless they put this in as an option in FM then it just wouldn't be possible to sign some players 

[JordanMilly]

3 minutes ago, Travis Bickle said:

I hope SI will implement these changes ASAP. 

 

Note the second part of the tweet for those who were saying that the current rules in-game are massively wrong and overstrict - whilst in some cases it might be easier for a player to get a permit, it'll mostly be the same as it is in-game currently.

[Platinum]

These rules will be changed in a year or so, they have agreed to review it next season

Edited December 1, 2020 by francis#17

[Junkhead]

1 hour ago, nb9 said:

I support Forest too, I have never disputed that there will be some people that lose out. Forest won't be able to sign some sub par Greek player from the Albanian top flight (for the better lol), but the only market that second division clubs can now shop in is the UK market is completely false.

My dispute has always been SI's implementation of Brexit which I thought was wrong, and is wrong now the details are out. 

You are being very selective in your examples of players we couldn't sign. I'm pretty certain (although the info had only just come out so I might be wrong) that our first choice Goalkeeper, first choice centre half, and the midfielder we sold in the summer who was very important to us last season wouldn't qualify under the points based system that has just been announced. So although the "Greek striker from the Albanian top flight" that doesn't exist wouldn't get a permit, nor would a number of our actual first team who do exist.

Not only that, due to our stature and history, we are able to bring in players of a higher standard and reputation than the vast majority of the EFL.

As for the club we both support -the foreign players we would have purchased at a lower premium to enhance our squad will now need to be replaced by much more expensive British players.  So your Samba Sows and Brice Sambas will give way to your Ryan Yates' and your Jordan Smiths.

But hey, at least SI got a couple of the details a little bit inaccurate 

 

[Travis Bickle]

1 minute ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

 

Excellent. 

[Junkhead]

59 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

That'd be squad registration rules, not work permit rules.

Yeah, I get that, I just expected clarification in respect of that too. 

[wazzaflow10]

So are premier league clubs just going to move a whole family now to get someone in their academy at 14/15? 

[JordanMilly]

Just now, wazzaflow10 said:

So are premier league clubs just going to move a whole family now to get someone in their academy at 14/15? 

With the new rules, I'm not sure I can see them being able to register those foreign players in their academies, though I guess we'll see how some teams try and get around the new rules.

[wazzaflow10]

11 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

With the new rules, I'm not sure I can see them being able to register those foreign players in their academies, though I guess we'll see how some teams try and get around the new rules.

While nefarious at the top level suppose a parent has a legitimate job in the UK. Obviously it will be much harder for anyone to get a work permit in general but for those that are there legitimately is the FA really going to stop kids from playing who's parents decide to move? 

I know this isn't an FM topic or modelled in FM so I don't want to continue down this route if its too off topic for the purposes of this forum.

Edited December 1, 2020 by wazzaflow10

[Double0Seven]

Excellent, hope they fix the AI while they are at. And we wont see Arsenal scouting 97% players that cant even get a work permit like @francis#17pointed out...