Brexit in FM21

[decapitated]

These are my Brexit rules in game? Does everyone else have the same ones?

 

[samdiatmh]

my holiday save got the same brexit, but my "work permit" rules are different

what i got:

Edited November 10, 2020 by samdiatmh

[Baodan]

I'd love to see it be almost impossible to buy any non-British player. It seems like an enjoyable challenge and it would be interesting to see what British football would be like after 10-15 years of that. 

[massichevaski]

On 11/11/2020 at 00:48, samdiatmh said:

my holiday save got the same brexit, but my "work permit" rules are different

what i got:

i hade the same rules as you, do you know if the forreign players still need to apply for work permit?  and if so did you understand what the rules are to get one because it doesn't seem very specific.

Edited November 12, 2020 by massichevaski

[SeaCarrot]

Yeah I got the 17 foreign player limit one too. Looks like thats most common this year.

Strangely in FM20 on all 3 saves I did the UK didn't leave the EU.

 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

1 hour ago, SeaCarrot said:

Strangely in FM20 on all 3 saves I did the UK didn't leave the EU.

My Swansea save, they did hard brexit, but the work permit rules were so generous (average transfer fee rule waived the permit) that it actually made it easier to sign players.

 

Anyone over 12million in fees was an automatic acceptance, so in the Premier League anyway, that was easy to fulfil, even for Brazilian youngsters.

 

On 11/11/2020 at 06:42, Baodan said:

I'd love to see it be almost impossible to buy any non-British player. It seems like an enjoyable challenge and it would be interesting to see what British football would be like after 10-15 years of that. 

I think it would cause the game to stagnate IRL, but for a challenge in FM it would be neat. There's a lot of, fairly overrated British players that will fit in I reckon. I sometimes do a UK+Ireland file, with exceptions granted only to youth recruits that come through the academy trial day.

On 10/11/2020 at 23:44, decapitated said:

Does everyone else have the same ones?

Think it will be randomised until we know more in 2025. >_> (In seriousness, I think they'll fix it when the transition period ends in January 2021 and the rules are clarified.)

 

AFAIK, the home grown quota won't be changed, but they're trying to put in a Fee clause (like my Swansea game basically), which means any transfer of a certain fee, automatically makes the player eligible to play, no need for the Work Permit or the 75% rule. If the FA get to go ahead with the fee/wage rule, it should be fairly easy, if not, easier for international transfers, which would make the English leagues even more ridiculously competitive. Just my opinion though, we have to wait and see.

[ajt]

On 11/11/2020 at 06:42, Baodan said:

I'd love to see it be almost impossible to buy any non-British player. It seems like an enjoyable challenge and it would be interesting to see what British football would be like after 10-15 years of that. 

Agreed I reckon it would make for a really fun challenge!

Maybe someone would re-hire an 80 year old Sam Allardyce and everyone would be playing 4-4-2 

[CM]

On 12/11/2020 at 16:48, massichevaski said:

i hade the same rules as you, do you know if the forreign players still need to apply for work permit?  and if so did you understand what the rules are to get one because it doesn't seem very specific.

Have the same with Watford and after that struggling to sign any foreigner. Doubt it will be the same IRL but it makes things extremely difficult in the game.

[kiwityke1983]

23 minutes ago, CM said:

Have the same with Watford and after that struggling to sign any foreigner. Doubt it will be the same IRL but it makes things extremely difficult in the game.

Ruins the save. I really hope they patch it out for the full version or make it easier to get a work permit. I really can't see it being so restrictive IRL.

[Sloak]

2 hours ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Ruins the save. I really hope they patch it out for the full version or make it easier to get a work permit. I really can't see it being so restrictive IRL.

Wait, I’m still in my first season with Bristol City, so I haven’t signed anyone new yet, but we need to get work permits and the 17 player squad limit is in effect? I thought with this one we only get the squad registration rules and but not the work permit.

[Domathon]

2 hours ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Ruins the save. I really hope they patch it out for the full version or make it easier to get a work permit. I really can't see it being so restrictive IRL.

my core play is around taking over Newcastle and building a squad of 18 year old Brazilians up over 6-8 years my brexit has made that impossible. im partly mad and partly exited for new challenge

[CM]

I mean, if this a bug I'd rather stop playing until full release tbh. Playing couple of seasons trying to build a squad and then knowing that your save is ruined is a bit annoying. 

[Domoboy23]

As far as I'm aware it's not a bug. There's plenty of options like on FM20 the way it can go. It's random

[CM]

9 minutes ago, Domoboy23 said:

As far as I'm aware it's not a bug. There's plenty of options like on FM20 the way it can go. It's random

But in this way EFL teams won't be able to sign any quality foreign players. The same applies to PL teams as well if they don't spend 50-60 millions for one player. The quality will drop significantly by the time and will make the game unplayable tbh. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by CM

[Domoboy23]

10 minutes ago, CM said:

But in this way EFL teams won't be able to sign any quality foreign players. The same applies to PL teams as well if they don't spend 50-60 millions for one player. The quality will drop significantly by the time and will make the game unplayable tbh. 

It certainly didn't make any save for me unplayable on FM19, or 20. Hard brexit or soft

[CM]

8 minutes ago, Domoboy23 said:

It certainly didn't make any save for me unplayable on FM19, or 20. Hard brexit or soft

The difference is that, on FM 19 and 20 when we had hard Brexit, players could get work permit without a problem if they earned above certain wage (12K I believe) but now it is impossible. And as most young players in the world haven't played any international game and do not play in top leagues, it is literally impossible to sign them on this edition. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by CM

[themadsheep2001]

Some of the options touted are that restrictive, and the FA are somewhat in favour. PL unsurprisingly less so. FM merely modelling the various options currently on table

[Domoboy23]

4 minutes ago, CM said:

The difference is that, on FM 19 and 20 when we had hard Brexit, players could get work permit without a problem if they earned above certain wage (12K I believe) but now it is impossible. And as most young players in the world haven't played any international game and do not play in top leagues, it is literally impossible to sign them on this edition. 

You do realise there's more than one outcome?

[Chetsfmfan]

@Domoboy23  I'm not sure that's true - see post from the bugs/issues sections -  'There is only one Brexit scenario in this years game and this creates a new WPsystem which comes into play after the close of the 2020 summer window'

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Chetsfmfan

[Domoboy23]

4 minutes ago, Chetsfmfan said:

@Domoboy23  I'm not sure that's true - see post from the bugs/issues sections -  'There is only one Brexit scenario in this years game and this creates a new WPsystem which comes into play after the close of the 2020 summer window'

 

Interesting! Thanks for that

[CM]

28 minutes ago, Domoboy23 said:

You do realise there's more than one outcome?

Sure, but this one doesn't make sense and doubt it will be anything like this IRL. Plus after 5-6 years many teams will be full of League One/Two level players and newgens if this is kept.

[HowzatFM]

5 hours ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Ruins the save. I really hope they patch it out for the full version or make it easier to get a work permit. I really can't see it being so restrictive IRL.

I think this is the key point that needs to be addressed before full release, going to be very difficult to sign a high amount of players after Brexit 

[jim owen]

3 hours ago, CM said:

Sure, but this one doesn't make sense and doubt it will be anything like this IRL. Plus after 5-6 years many teams will be full of League One/Two level players and newgens if this is kept.

but this is the current most likely scenario being discussed by the FA, the premier league are against it, but it looks like the FA will push it through

[kiwityke]

3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Some of the options touted are that restrictive, and the FA are somewhat in favour. PL unsurprisingly less so. FM merely modelling the various options currently on table

Its game breaking and the FA get about as much say in what happens in football these days as I do so it 100% needs patching out.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, kiwityke said:

Its game breaking and the FA get about as much say in what happens in football these days as I do so it 100% needs patching out.

You'd be quite wrong about the FA. It's only getting patched out if they think there's an actual bug issue

[kiwityke]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

You'd be quite wrong about the FA. It's only getting patched out if they think there's an actual bug issue

If the Premier league don't want it. It isn't happening.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, kiwityke said:

If the Premier league don't want it. It isn't happening.

Off topic here, but the current scenario in game is closer to the FA's choice. And the PL ultimately have to defer to the FA (though they wouldn't be going down without a fight), since it's something that requires ratification for international transfers, and therefore involves national footballing bodies

[kiwityke]

I've yet to find a single player on my save who will qualify for a work permit after Brexit. Its absolutely not going to be that restrictive and I've seen players who have 80 caps and my scouts are like yeah no ain't getting one!

It makes playing in the UK essentially unplayable. Especially when my scouts still seem insistent on only recommending me foreigners.

Once the game fully releases there will be mass "iTs BrOkEn" threads because its 100% game breaking.

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, kiwityke said:

I've yet to find a single player on my save who will qualify for a work permit after Brexit. Its absolutely not going to be that restrictive and I've seen players who have 80 caps and my scouts are like yeah no ain't getting one!

It makes playing in the UK essentially unplayable. Especially when my scouts still seem insistent on only recommending me foreigners.

Once the game fully releases there will be mass "iTs BrOkEn" threads because its 100% game breaking.

If you think there's a bug in what your scouts are doing, or with the caps then raise it in the bugs section. The rules may or may not change in the future, but they are being modelled on how they are set out now, and yes, those rules are restrictive. Welcome to Brexit

[SeaCarrot]

17 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If you think there's a bug in what your scouts are doing, or with the caps then raise it in the bugs section. The rules may or may not change in the future, but they are being modelled on how they are set out now, and yes, those rules are restrictive. Welcome to Brexit

what rules? Brexit rules don’t exist in real life, it’s hypothetical. The game has done a hypothetical job of simulating something it has no idea about for years and now it’s taken it to the extreme. You can read numerous stories of wages and transfer fees being the deciding work permit factor for brexit rules but these don’t even exist as an option in the games scenario anymore. It’s completely jumped the shark.

Maybe SI should wait until things actually exist before they add things to the game in the name of realism. 

 

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, SeaCarrot said:

what rules? Brexit rules don’t exist in real life, it’s hypothetical. The game has done a hypothetical job of simulating something it has no idea about for years and now it’s taken it to the extreme. You can read numerous stories of wages and transfer fees being the deciding work permit factor for brexit rules but these don’t even exist as an option in the games scenario anymore. It’s completely jumped the shark.

Maybe SI should wait until things actually exist before they add things to the game in the name of realism. 

 

They clearly aren't waiting though that's neither here nor there. Like I said, unless there's an actual bug to be raised on it, this is how its likely going to be, short of people editing their games

[SeaCarrot]

Is it a bug if the game lacks any detail in the new work permit system it’s created? I’m sure real life clubs will actually be told what would make a player qualify. In game the best you get is 3 sentences saying there’s a point criteria based on such and such with no detail.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by SeaCarrot
Typo

[themadsheep2001]

If people actually want to change something in SI's eyes, they're have to do more than shout its game-breaking

[kiwityke]

23 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If you think there's a bug in what your scouts are doing, or with the caps then raise it in the bugs section. The rules may or may not change in the future, but they are being modelled on how they are set out now, and yes, those rules are restrictive. Welcome to Brexit

 

2 minutes ago, SeaCarrot said:

what rules? Brexit rules don’t exist in real life, it’s hypothetical. The game has done a hypothetical job of simulating something it has no idea about for years and now it’s taken it to the extreme. You can read numerous stories of wages and transfer fees being the deciding work permit factor for brexit rules but these don’t even exist as an option in the games scenario anymore. It’s completely jumped the shark.

Maybe SI should wait until things actually exist before they add things to the game in the name of realism. 

 

What this guy above said.

Also as if I needed a reason to hate the tory voting brexit voting racist gammons anymore this was it!

Also I don't think it will happen for one simple reason money. The Premier league is hugely successful as it (allegedly) has the best players in the world...imagine the excitement at Brighton v Burnley around the worlds TV audiences when all 22 players are British clodhoppers only in the Prem as we can't bring in foreigners!

SI has absolutely jumped the gun here IMO and they need to cool their jets and see what happens.

God I wish we could patch Brexit out IRL!

[themadsheep2001]

6 minutes ago, kiwityke said:

 

What this guy above said.

Also as if I needed a reason to hate the tory voting brexit voting racist gammons anymore this was it!

Also I don't think it will happen for one simple reason money. The Premier league is hugely successful as it (allegedly) has the best players in the world...imagine the excitement at Brighton v Burnley around the worlds TV audiences when all 22 players are British clodhoppers only in the Prem as we can't bring in foreigners!

SI has absolutely jumped the gun here IMO and they need to cool their jets and see what happens.

God I wish we could patch Brexit out IRL!

You assume Brexit is rational though when you talk about money, its not. If it was remotely rational we wouldn't even be doing, but here we are

but that's enough politics

Ultimately the hypothetical scenarios are restrictive, they are not particularly great for football, its madness that's what they want to do, and yet....

But people are going to have to do more than shout game-breaking, to actually get it changed, there's nothing here for SI to look at. Save games, examples etc. something they can dig into.

You mentioned 80 cap players being turned down, I'm sure that's a save they would like to see

[SeaCarrot]

The second post in this thread has enough detail, it shows a screenshot where the work permits and what’s required to get one, gives zero information of what’s required.

permit based on league reputation? Means what? What’s the tiers, is there points behind it? Where can we find this information?sufficient appearances? What’s sufficient? 5 games? 15? 
 

it’s ridiculously vague and makes it impossible to make an informed choice on whether it’s worth wasting time chasing a player. 
 

is that enough for SI to work with?

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, SeaCarrot said:

The second post in this thread has enough detail, it shows a screenshot where the work permits and what’s required to get one, gives zero information of what’s required.

permit based on league reputation? Means what? What’s the tiers, is there points behind it? Where can we find this information?sufficient appearances? What’s sufficient? 5 games? 15? 
 

it’s ridiculously vague and makes it impossible to make an informed choice on whether it’s worth wasting time chasing a player. 
 

is that enough for SI to work with?

Haven you got examples of players being rejected etc in save games etc actionable playable issues

Kiwityke mentioned 80 cap players getting turned down. Definitely upload something like that

[samdiatmh]

3 minutes ago, SeaCarrot said:

permit based on league reputation? Means what? What’s the tiers, is there points behind it? Where can we find this information?sufficient appearances? What’s sufficient? 5 games? 15? 
 

it’s ridiculously vague and makes it impossible to make an informed choice on whether it’s worth wasting time chasing a player. 
 

is that enough for SI to work with?

except it basically tells you (if you spend time actually scouting the bugger), and it also tells you in a nice red text (at the bottom of the screen), whether they'll pass it when you're discussing a contract

it's not some kind of mystery - your backroom staff essentially work it out for you (and they're usually pretty accurate)

 

I mean, I guess it's "ridiculously vague" if you're just blindly offering contracts - but that's literally a self-inflicted problem
fortunately it also applies to staff as well  - so that early hoard of cheap Brazilians scouts doesn't work anymore (they fail the WP and don't join you, but you can offer the contract anyway on the hope that the backroom staff are wrong)

Edited November 14, 2020 by samdiatmh

[kiwityke]

1 minute ago, SeaCarrot said:

The second post in this thread has enough detail, it shows a screenshot where the work permits and what’s required to get one, gives zero information of what’s required.

permit based on league reputation? Means what? What’s the tiers, is there points behind it? Where can we find this information?sufficient appearances? What’s sufficient? 5 games? 15? 
 

it’s ridiculously vague and makes it impossible to make an informed choice on whether it’s worth wasting time chasing a player. 
 

is that enough for SI to work with?

It doesn't even give you how many points a player needs to achieve to get a work permit in the first place. Or any details as to how they achieve them either.

The entire system seems entirely half thought out and even more poorly implemented.

There's a whole thread on the bugs forum where big name players on 120k a week are being turned down!

[SeaCarrot]

Just now, samdiatmh said:

except it basically tells you (if you spend time actually scouting the bugger), and it also tells you in a nice red text (at the bottom of the screen), whether they'll pass it when you're discussing a contract

it's not some kind of mystery - your backroom staff essentially work it out for you (and they're usually pretty accurate)

 

I mean, I guess it's "ridiculously vague" if you're just blindly offering contracts - but that's literally a self-inflicted problem

so my staff know the permit rules and whether a player qualifies, but it’s impossible for the club manager to work it out? 
 

what league position is required to qualify? So I know whether to watch a player and his teams performances or do I just need to scout him every time their league position changes and hope I’m told. 
 

why does the information need to be hidden from me?

[iownyou]

@SeaCarrot

@kiwityke

 

yup you guys are on the right track with this. FM jumped the gun here .  Certain parts of it aren’t even finalised yet and there had never been a clear explanation regarding what nations and how many caps etc are actually needed. 
 

I posted this in the work permit thread 

 

The real life process won’t cause that much of an issue. Looks like a 15 point rule has been agreed by PL and FA and that is yet to be voted on by clubs anyway but my guess is it’ll get even lower.

The problem is FM is not capable of processing the work permit requirements information. 
I’ve had saves before where I’ve had players fail work permits even though they’re full internationals Who play regularly because when the game starts you start with no international appearances for that season. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8942921/amp/The-FA-win-post-Brexit-war-against-Premier-League-overseas-talent-new-15-point-system.html

that article explains it more but basically fm will not be capable of applying the measures that are there in real life. For example the appeal system. This will basically make playing in England outside the Premier League in Fm borderline unplayable and impossible for potentially rising up the ladder.
SI are going to have to have a workaround put in the coding or something to negate this. 

[iownyou]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

They clearly aren't waiting though that's neither here nor there. Like I said, unless there's an actual bug to be raised on it, this is how its likely going to be, short of people editing their games

Simple solution would be to allow the user to select from various options at the start of a save. It’s such a simple way to absolve the impending mass of complaints. 
wait until the PL and FA come to a final decision before you start finalising something as critical in the game as brexit. Which won’t actually be until February by the way. 
The way it has been done in previous fms is how it should have been kept for this one. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by iownyou

[kiwityke]

I suspect the system as implemented is so restrictive that nobody actually passes the work permit test in FM21. I've yet to see a single player my scouts say would pass as yet.

When I have time I will holiday 5 then 10 years into the future and count how many foreigners are in the Premier league and championship at the start of the game, 5 years in and then 10.

I suspect by 10 years in it will be close to almost zero.

[samdiatmh]

1 hour ago, kiwityke said:

I suspect the system as implemented is so restrictive that nobody actually passes the work permit test in FM21. I've yet to see a single player my scouts say would pass as yet.

When I have time I will holiday 5 then 10 years into the future and count how many foreigners are in the Premier league and championship at the start of the game, 5 years in and then 10.

I suspect by 10 years in it will be close to almost zero.

statement is incorrect, but I'll provide evidence

 

Jul 2028 of my holiday save (and my rules are the ones listed as the second post)

Man City senior squad (who won the Premier Division in 2027/28)
and Cardiff senior squad (who won League 1 in 2027/28)
I'd go further, but I'd argue that the League1 winners having 7 internationals proves the point here (it's kinda moot, especially when I started with a random Premier League team and saw them with a similar makeup to City)

shall I upload the file as well? or is that proof enough

personally I'd argue that this proves that Brexit is coded correctly - it's pretty much only top internationals that actually appear in the ManCity first team (with the lowest foreigner having 13 caps at the age of 24)
unless the beta's been patched? this file started at 09:09AM on November 11th (GMT+11)

 

I'd argue that this is arguably realistic to how it'll look IRL - it just means that you can't go to South America and hoover up 18yo regens for 100k each (which my understanding was was one of the main reasons of Brexit in the first place... stop random foreigners coming in when a competent English person can do the role adequately)

 

edit: and curiosity got the better of me too... so here's a list of all players that appeared for ManCity in the previous season (29 players in total, and only 10 are from "Brexit nations" of Wales/NorthernIreland/England/Scotland)
to say it's hard to sign players is factually incorrect... I'd put pretty good money on it being "challenging" because you can't got to SouthAmerica and sign up every 18yo that breathes

Edited November 14, 2020 by samdiatmh

[kiwityke]

1 hour ago, samdiatmh said:

statement is incorrect, but I'll provide evidence

 

Jul 2028 of my holiday save (and my rules are the ones listed as the second post)

Man City senior squad (who won the Premier Division in 2027/28)
and Cardiff senior squad (who won League 1 in 2027/28)
I'd go further, but I'd argue that the League1 winners having 7 internationals proves the point here (it's kinda moot, especially when I started with a random Premier League team and saw them with a similar makeup to City)

shall I upload the file as well? or is that proof enough

personally I'd argue that this proves that Brexit is coded correctly - it's pretty much only top internationals that actually appear in the ManCity first team (with the lowest foreigner having 13 caps at the age of 24)
unless the beta's been patched? this file started at 09:09AM on November 11th (GMT+11)

 

I'd argue that this is arguably realistic to how it'll look IRL - it just means that you can't go to South America and hoover up 18yo regens for 100k each (which my understanding was was one of the main reasons of Brexit in the first place... stop random foreigners coming in when a competent English person can do the role adequately)

 

edit: and curiosity got the better of me too... so here's a list of all players that appeared for ManCity in the previous season (29 players in total, and only 10 are from "Brexit nations" of Wales/NorthernIreland/England/Scotland)
to say it's hard to sign players is factually incorrect... I'd put pretty good money on it being "challenging" because you can't got to SouthAmerica and sign up every 18yo that breathes

Looking at that Cardiff line up I see quite a few foreigners who start at English clubs. I've yet to have a single player recommended to me who starts playing abroad that would pass the WP rules as of yet.

I'm still going to do the test myself just to see what happens.

[Domathon]

I have a very nice laptop running a large database with many leagues very happy... hard brexit comes in and my 120k player database is now pointless as 80%~95% of players cannot be signed as work permits are impossible to get unless players already play in a high reputation league with international caps and regular starters.

inever used to poach Brazilians for 100k when they were available but this brexit thing has really left my game play style unplayable, I guess I can adapt and change but my desire to play is less.

I don’t wanna be too negative the beta launch and me seem decent on the whole am reasonably happy with the game but the hard brexit stops you signing 90% of players and 99.9% of young talent.

 
 

[HowzatFM]

1 hour ago, Domathon said:

I have a very nice laptop running a large database with many leagues very happy... hard brexit comes in and my 120k player database is now pointless as 80%~95% of players cannot be signed as work permits are impossible to get unless players already play in a high reputation league with international caps and regular starters.

inever used to poach Brazilians for 100k when they were available but this brexit thing has really left my game play style unplayable, I guess I can adapt and change but my desire to play is less.

I don’t wanna be too negative the beta launch and me seem decent on the whole am reasonably happy with the game but the hard brexit stops you signing 90% of players and 99.9% of young talent.

 
 

Couldn’t agree more, Beta launch has been very successful! However this aspect of Brexit is going stop the signings of all players that haven’t played international games, is this really realistic? With Brexit not even decided in real life it seems extreme to have this level of implications in FM21.

I really hope they change this before launch, otherwise I only see more complaints as more players encounter the issue that dampens the enjoyment of the game

[Domathon]

15 minutes ago, benhoward12 said:

Couldn’t agree more, Beta launch has been very successful! However this aspect of Brexit is going stop the signings of all players that haven’t played international games, is this really realistic? With Brexit not even decided in real life it seems extreme to have this level of implications in FM21.

I really hope they change this before launch, otherwise I only see more complaints as more players encounter the issue that dampens the enjoyment of the game

Ultra hard mode activated currently hehe, I’m hopeful things will be a little less restrictive otherwise the large database isn’t worth having unless you want to move around the world managing?

Edited November 14, 2020 by Domathon

[HowzatFM]

11 minutes ago, Domathon said:

Ultra hard mode activated currently hehe, I’m hopeful things will be a little less restrictive otherwise the large database isn’t worth having unless you want to move around the world managing?

Yes agree, for me I’m a one club man and usually in England (which I guess will relate with a large number of players) so this will impact me significantly. 
 

The fact we still don’t even know what is happening with Brexit is why I’m hoping this gets changed, if this because a rule in real life, I’m all for implementing it, but this just seems an unnecessary hard brexit in game 

[boroinbishop]

Have to agree, the Brexit Scenario has really killed any excitement for the game I had this year, trying to sign players for Middlesbrough at the start of the third season and it is impossible, I can't sign anyone from abroad at all due to not being able to afford international superstars! I usually find lesser known players with potential to give me a chance of competing but this year that seems like it's going to be impossible.