THIS IS GETTING RIDICULOUS NOW!

[trio129]

I am sick and tired of absolutely dominating games and then either losing 1-0 or drawing 1-1.... for example i played stoke i had 46 shots 34 from inside the box and 65% possession and they had 2 shots in total and won 1-0 from a 30 yard long shot are you for real this is not a fluke coincidence as this is happening time and time again over and over...wing backs getting into a great crossing position 2 guys clear in the box hits shot into side netting instruction take less risks shoot less often, cross more often, cross from by line this happens at least 5 times per match! 

My tactic is attached below 

 

Trio 4231 Narrow.fmf

Edited November 24, 2019 by trio129

[Ras]

For me the match engine is broken this year, I've never said that before, sure there's been bugs, but this is the first FM Game for me where it feels like it doesn't work at all.

[trio129]

same here never thought that before but its just really noticeable this year and its really frustrating as this is costing me crucial matches etc as i never replay matches  

[Chas (Psyatika)]

I'm literally unbeaten in two separate saves since buying this game, including 5 matches with Crystal Palace in the EPL.

The only unrealistic thing about this game is that Christian Benteke is dominating matches and Connor Wickham hasn't been injured yet.

It's your tactics

Edited November 24, 2019 by Chas (Psyatika)

[trio129]

chas can you upload your tactic or even try mine if you could see if you can see whats going wrong? 

[anagain]

Head over to the tactics forums and have a chat. Having possession doesn't mean you win games; it just means you get a lot of the ball. Winning games comes from creating clear chances, and there are many reasons why you might not be creating clear chances. As for conceding goals against the run of play, well sometimes you need to counter the opponents. If they're playing deep and countering then dropping a defender to cover can help. Likewise, dropping your defensive line back a notch can help. Give their forwards less room in which to be effective and less space for your defenders to have to cover.

Don't ignore the morale side of the game either. Team talks and shouts can be very important.

I don't consider myself a tactical genius though. I've learnt from experience and from the tactics forum. There are some very knowledable guys over there. 

Good luck improving.

[Svenc]

Rather upload the Matches. Plus the fixture list marking how often it's Happening. I'm Pretty sure what's to be found if a repeat. Spoiler: There may be a few reasonably high Quality chances in there. However, even the best ones shouldn't be higher than 50/50 Affairs. In other words: They will be missed. The bulk of them will be headers and similar from the set piece, as your tactic may pin the Opposition back (and the Opposition sits Deep to spoil anyway). But struggles to create space and break that defense down. A set piece, after all is the result of a side still getting a foot into your move. The game doesn't have a stat for this though, so you would need to manually go through all the Opposition shots. You will have lots more shots than the Opposition as soon as the AI sits rigidly back, btw. It's simply a byproduct of their tactial choice. Having lots more shots doesn't equal to playing well naturally --  see Germany at last year's World Cup. Enjoyed by far the most shots, barely scored a Thing. Plus, they were so open, every however few times their OP won the ball back, it was immediately dangerous.

This  tactic btw is compressing the space. It's the narrow 4-2-3-1. One of the two CMs is a box to box pushing into the same space as the guys in front of him. The front four when going Forward will already be sitting Deep in the final third of the op by Default. That's the space deep sitting Opposition tries to congest itself. You've even manually overwritten some Forward run "instructions". You've selected to Focus Play through the middle, which can make the guys out wide less involved -- usually the ball will drift out wide naturally though, as your middle is so compressed. Additionally, you're encouraging to take players to shoot from all over the place 90 minutes (those who aren't then manually discouraged from doing so anywaay..). If you want to raise something, raise to SI that you shouldn't be able to easily do anything like this. Plus better Feedback. You're meantn to be an "actual Manager" within the game's Simulation of Football, after all. 

The compression can be seen in the average positioning map "with ball" in the match Analysis as well -- basically the guys tend to be sitting "atop of each other", in particular on the side of the box to box. That means they are also far easiler to engage. Which is where those added set pieces may be coming from.





 

Edited November 24, 2019 by Svenc

[oblongata21]

I almost just had this. In my last Newcastle game, I had 36 shots, 15 on target and had a one all draw against Brighton, who had 3 shots, 1 on target.

I shouldnt complain too much, there was apparently 5 minutes of added time and Andy Carroll scored in the 97th minute

These things to happen but unlike FM19, it doesnt seem to happen all the time. Frustrating i know

[Svenc]

3 minutes ago, oblongata21 said:

I almost just had this. In my last Newcastle game, I had 36 shots, 15 on target and had a one all draw against Brighton, who had 3 shots, 1 on target.

As argued in the above, and this is a spoiler. If you went into the match Analysis screen for shots. Clicked on that and clicked all your shots inside the box back to back. You would likely find that many of them will be purely from the set piece. Headers under pressure are rarely like a tap-in, and oft picked up by the keeper. I've seen it otherwise on the rare Occasion. But the SOT typically Always get beefed that way, in particular with but one Goal from 15. It's up to you then to figure out why it were Happening. Another spoiler: Every set piece eventually is the result of the defending Team still being able to get a foot into Play... FM19 saw notoriously defensive AI btw, probably even by FM Standards.  

Edited November 24, 2019 by Svenc

[oblongata21]

11 minutes ago, Svenc said:

As argued in the above, and this is a spoiler. If you went into the match Analysis screen for shots. Clicked on that and clicked all your shots inside the box back to back. You would likely find that many of them will be purely from the set piece. Headers under pressure are rarely like a tap-in, and oft picked up by the keeper. I've seen it otherwise on the rare Occasion. But the SOT typically Always get beefed that way, in particular with but one Goal from 15. It's up to you then to figure out why it were Happening. Another spoiler: Every set piece eventually is the result of the defending Team still being able to get a foot into Play... FM19 saw notoriously defensive AI btw, probably even by FM Standards.  

I looked at that, there were quite a few, but do blocked shots count as well?

I have to admit, Matt Ryan was absolutely insane in goal for Brighton too, was saving everything

[Trent71]

7 hours ago, Svenc said:

This  tactic btw is compressing the space. It's the narrow 4-2-3-1. One of the two CMs is a box to box pushing into the same space as the guys in front of him. The front four when going Forward will already be sitting Deep in the final third of the op by Default. That's the space deep sitting Opposition tries to congest itself. You've even manually overwritten some Forward run "instructions". You've selected to Focus Play through the middle, which can make the guys out wide less involved -- usually the ball will drift out wide naturally though, as your middle is so compressed. Additionally, you're encouraging to take players to shoot from all over the place 90 minutes (those who aren't then manually discouraged from doing so anywaay..). If you want to raise something, raise to SI that you shouldn't be able to easily do anything like this. Plus better Feedback. You're meantn to be an "actual Manager" within the game's Simulation of Football, after all. 

How am I only the first person to upvote this? 

I definitely think that we need much sensible approach to "why things happen in a certain way" and not capslocking "game is broken" rants. I'm not a tactical genius, so I appreciate the time you took to brake this down  

[Svenc]

36 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

How am I only the first person to upvote this? 

I definitely think that we need much sensible approach to "why things happen in a certain way" and not capslocking "game is broken" rants. I'm not a tactical genius, so I appreciate the time you took to brake this down  

Thanks, dunno. If I'd be an ar*e I'd argue that there are too many downloading illogical tactics which in that respect are sometimes much worse than this one. And that in downloading every year they have never learned to Play the tactics parts of the game. And so what they see is what they see on the occasion. Sometimes even more severe. I think with one of those CHinese atrocity tactics somebody had posted a match with 90 shots and but one Goal during the plublic Beta-- admittedly it went into extra time and to the penalties. If the Chinese aim to break a game, they aim to break it for good. But then the reality may be much simpler: TOO LONG DID NOT READ (sorry for that).

 

1 hour ago, oblongata21 said:

I looked at that, there were quite a few, but do blocked shots count as well?

Blocked shots usually don't Count, as they are blocked before they could go on target. However, set pieces naturally are also likely to produce additional blocked shots. The box is jam packed with Players, after all. FM from my end has more set piece shots in General. However, too many of them are rarely a good sign. Set pieces have their own tactics, thus your open Play tactics must be defended over and over. And the game still doesn't have a stat for that...

Edited November 24, 2019 by Svenc

[Geordieboy52]

9 hours ago, Svenc said:

Rather upload the Matches. Plus the fixture list marking how often it's Happening. I'm Pretty sure what's to be found if a repeat. Spoiler: There may be a few reasonably high Quality chances in there. However, even the best ones shouldn't be higher than 50/50 Affairs. In other words: They will be missed. The bulk of them will be headers and similar from the set piece, as your tactic may pin the Opposition back (and the Opposition sits Deep to spoil anyway). But struggles to create space and break that defense down. A set piece, after all is the result of a side still getting a foot into your move. The game doesn't have a stat for this though, so you would need to manually go through all the Opposition shots. You will have lots more shots than the Opposition as soon as the AI sits rigidly back, btw. It's simply a byproduct of their tactial choice. Having lots more shots doesn't equal to playing well naturally --  see Germany at last year's World Cup. Enjoyed by far the most shots, barely scored a Thing. Plus, they were so open, every however few times their OP won the ball back, it was immediately dangerous.

This  tactic btw is compressing the space. It's the narrow 4-2-3-1. One of the two CMs is a box to box pushing into the same space as the guys in front of him. The front four when going Forward will already be sitting Deep in the final third of the op by Default. That's the space deep sitting Opposition tries to congest itself. You've even manually overwritten some Forward run "instructions". You've selected to Focus Play through the middle, which can make the guys out wide less involved -- usually the ball will drift out wide naturally though, as your middle is so compressed. Additionally, you're encouraging to take players to shoot from all over the place 90 minutes (those who aren't then manually discouraged from doing so anywaay..). If you want to raise something, raise to SI that you shouldn't be able to easily do anything like this. Plus better Feedback. You're meantn to be an "actual Manager" within the game's Simulation of Football, after all. 

The compression can be seen in the average positioning map "with ball" in the match Analysis as well -- basically the guys tend to be sitting "atop of each other", in particular on the side of the box to box. That means they are also far easiler to engage. Which is where those added set pieces may be coming from.





 

This looks like they're celebrating a goal.

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, Trent71 said:

How am I only the first person to upvote this? 

I definitely think that we need much sensible approach to "why things happen in a certain way" and not capslocking "game is broken" rants. I'm not a tactical genius, so I appreciate the time you took to brake this down  

Because its much easier just to throw your hands up and say something is broken rather than actually think about whether that's true

[Svenc]

59 minutes ago, Geordieboy52 said:

This looks like they're celebrating a goal.

I've personally been calling it "Holding a picnic"; but that's not bad as well. The crap out there is surprising (but then the game allows it)… Note, this is not off the OP's tactic. The circle drawn here presents the area the AI has to defend. No matter who gets the ball next, he would be immediately engaged and pushed. The AI is/was playing a back Five plus DMs to boot…… funny stuff. Football -- not so much. Pep would be having a laugh.
 

On 16/10/2017 at 05:46, Svenc said:

Shots in the box off set pieces marked green. As you can probably antipicate from the first positioning screenshot, the other ones were quite "rushed" affairs. No matter who receives the ball here, he's immediately pushed to something -- like shooting. Damn, once this thread is finished, I have to re-install the game again (not really played until May).

Edited November 24, 2019 by Svenc

[Mitja]

 OP upload that pkm to ME bugs forum maybe?. 40 , 50 shots is insane, no metter what. there's must be somethin very wrong with AI tactics. AI would have more chances if it wouldn't play so defensive. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by Mitja

[sporadicsmiles]

6 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 OP upload that pkm to ME bugs forum maybe?. 40 , 50 shots is insane, no metter what. there's must be somethin very wrong with AI tactics. AI would have more chances if it wouldn't play so defensive. 

The AI won the game though, which implies its tactics were fine. Encourage shots from bad positions, keep the game close, try to the catch the other side on the break. The AI almost always comes out of its shell in the last 20 minutes of so of close games though. Which is one reason they score late winners. Players make a bunch of attacking changes, do not notice the AI changing their approach, and concede. The AI will then immediately shut up shop again. 

The AI staying defensive when they are a goal down is something that should be changed. They should be looking to equalize sooner. Not go all out attack, but less defensive. 

That being said, if the OP is having 50+ shots without scoring, they are clearly doing something wrong, and he/she should be trying to work out what and change things up. Change the point of attack. Change the mentality to  change the directness and risk taking. Looking at where the AI is leaving space, and trying to exploit it or to use it to draw them out of shape. All three of these things. And then waiting for the AI to come out and attack a bit more. Especially this, because this is when you will have the best chance to score. Hell, I even invite the AI on to me when they want to actually attack. Hit them on the break. 

There are so many things you can try to solve these issues. Blindly continuing with the same setup which is clearly not working is not the correct one. 

[Rashidi]

16 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 OP upload that pkm to ME bugs forum maybe?. 40 , 50 shots is insane, no metter what. there's must be somethin very wrong with AI tactics. AI would have more chances if it wouldn't play so defensive. 

There have been teams irl that have produced lots of shots in a game without even scoring. United vs Burnley 35 shots 0-0 scoreline, I think someone did a correlationship as well, (https://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2013/1/11/3857360/analysis-shots-vs-shots-on-target_ ) that teams with the highest shot count win 62.9% of games. Ultimately though, the shots need to be decent shots not just shots against a team hell bent on not moving out of their half. There is a reason why people call it "park the bus". 

I too would be upset if I had a match which produced a lot of shots with me walking away without a point. I have saves on FM20 with some formations that produce 50 shots and only 2 goals, however I know why there are only 2 goals. The defensive team never moved out. If he feels that this is an unwarranted performance, then he should submit that pkm in. I for one do believe that there are going to be matches where you can produce a high shot count in FM without winning.

[Svenc]

20 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The AI won the game though, which implies its tactics were fine.

That wasn't the AI tho it was the Player who was raging About scoring but once, and I'd argue it'S not how Football is regularly being played on a pitch. Granted the tactic did the Job of pinning the opposition back all match, which is no surprise. HOwever, it created ZERO space. This is very common with FM'ers in General; they build tactics that up the Possession+shot Counts. They've watched a lot of MOTD, and thus think those are the keys to conquer Football. However, the means they take to get there decrease the likelyhood of scoring. Therefore, all stat comparisons -- from my end -- to real Football MUST go out the window. There is no Manager Managing Matches like that. Actual managers manages spaces, not stats on a spreadsheet. That said, I have a suspicioius that on FM it's been far easier to get shot off set pieces off in General. One day I may be doing a Research.... in actual Football, butu a fraction of all set pieces (let alone Corners) end in a shot at all. And then a lot of those shots in FM are also on target, which is why this is Always such a sure bet to look after whenever you see somebody Posting such a match.

I personally have no issue with 40-50 shot Matches as such, in particular if the other side is (unrealistically) pegged back, and the other shots with gay Abandon. This happens in Football between actual Teams managed by Managers. Zidane's Madrid could produce them multiple times a Season, in particular in his Prior spell, with Ronaldo alone racking up to 12 shots per match (sometimes without scoring)  
https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1328399/MatchReport/Europe-UEFA-Champions-League-2018-2019-PSV-Eindhoven-Barcelona
https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1221978/MatchReport/Spain-LaLiga-2017-2018-Real-Madrid-Real-Betis
https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1222158/MatchReport/Spain-LaLiga-2017-2018-Real-Madrid-Villarreal

Agreed on FM's defensive AI, btw. Even if a tactic wouldn't peg it back all match, it would be contributing to statistically one-dimensional Matches by being happy with the draw or not getting trashed (Prior Editions anyway) far too frequent.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Svenc

[Mitja]

20 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

There have been teams irl that have produced lots of shots in a game without even scoring. United vs Burnley 35 shots 0-0 scoreline, I think someone did a correlationship as well, (https://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2013/1/11/3857360/analysis-shots-vs-shots-on-target_ ) that teams with the highest shot count win 62.9% of games. Ultimately though, the shots need to be decent shots not just shots against a team hell bent on not moving out of their half. There is a reason why people call it "park the bus". 

I too would be upset if I had a match which produced a lot of shots with me walking away without a point. I have saves on FM20 with some formations that produce 50 shots and only 2 goals, however I know why there are only 2 goals. The defensive team never moved out. If he feels that this is an unwarranted performance, then he should submit that pkm in. I for one do believe that there are going to be matches where you can produce a high shot count in FM without winning.

agreed but 40+ shots is something i would report. 52 shots against similar quality team is very unrealistic, who's tactics is fault i don't know. but i just seen AI L'pool playing attacking 4231 against 532, match was played 7 vs 5 in attack for Southapton.clearly wrong formation and duty selection from AI.

[Rashidi]

7 minutes ago, Mitja said:

agreed but 40+ shots is something i would report. 52 shots against similar quality team is very unrealistic, who's tactics is fault i don't know. but i just seen AI L'pool playing attacking 4231 against 532, match was played 7 vs 5 in attack for Southapton.clearly wrong formation and duty selection from AI.

Agreed, if its an anomaly it should be reported, SI have the tools to check whether or not its tactical or engine flaws

[hazzabish]

3 hours ago, forameuss said:

Because its much easier just to throw your hands up and say something is broken rather than actually think about whether that's true

But it clearly is broken, though. Even though I'm doing well with Arsenal and in a three way battle for the title, the highlights are laughably bad sometimes. Players running the entire length of the pitch unchallenged is an every match occurence, although they usually shoot from a stupid angle or put it 20 yards wide. Among many other nonsenses.

Edited November 24, 2019 by hazzabish

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, hazzabish said:

But it clearly is broken, though. Even though I'm doing well with Arsenal and in a three way battle for the title, the highlights are laughably bad sometimes. Players running the entire length of the pitch unchallenged is an every match occurence, although they usually shoot from a stupid angle or put it 20 yards wide. Among many other nonsenses.

The OP was basically claiming that his perceived subpar Performances were down to any ME issue.

Has never been the case. In fact, if you wanted to you could "meta" them, you could use the Knowledge about them to your Advantage, which the AI could not. For that to happen, SI would need to code the entire AI Manager tactical decision making process anew on any release, basically coding the AI around any issue, which given the complexity would be a colossal waste of ressources to boot. 

What the OP is doing is similar to Pep blaming the balls of the Carabao Cup for that bad City Performance that night. Balls all too bouncy, that's why I can't score! Figures. Why does everybody do lots score though? And if anybody now argues building tactics with an ounce of football sensibility was playing "META", I'm going to scream. I still think he has a Point in that though, see biggie post above.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Svenc

[lex311085]

I'm doing brilliantly with Watford and I hate the match engine to the point where its become unplayable. So its not just people moaning that they're doing rubbish and therefore the ME is rubbish. If I play against Man City I want them to play like Man City, If I play against Liverpool I want them to play like Liverpool. 

[Svenc]

14 minutes ago, lex311085 said:

I'm doing brilliantly with Watford and I hate the match engine to the point where its become unplayable. So its not just people moaning that they're doing rubbish and therefore the ME is rubbish. 

Absolutely. However, that was not what had sparked the opening this thread -- unless the OP got his wording all seriously wrong.

I'd absolutely love the AI to be that good that it would resemble the real world Teams as well and the ME as robust. I'Ve voiced in the past that the engine as well as AI may Progress at a more stable rate if the entire tactical module was streamlined and the ME following suit. We're Talking About real world stats here, yet ignore that These stats all come About somehow. It's actual Managers making actual Manager decisions, to begin with throughout... this goes for the game's AI Managers as well, which also aren't without flaws.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Svenc

[hazzabish]

8 hours ago, Svenc said:

The OP was basically claiming that his perceived subpar Performances were down to any ME issue.

Has never been the case. In fact, if you wanted to you could "meta" them, you could use the Knowledge about them to your Advantage, which the AI could not. For that to happen, SI would need to code the entire AI Manager tactical decision making process anew on any release, basically coding the AI around any issue, which given the complexity would be a colossal waste of ressources to boot. 

What the OP is doing is similar to Pep blaming the balls of the Carabao Cup for that bad City Performance that night. Balls all too bouncy, that's why I can't score! Figures. Why does everybody do lots score though? And if anybody now argues building tactics with an ounce of football sensibility was playing "META", I'm going to scream. I still think he has a Point in that though, see biggie post above.

This is all fine, and perhaps I should have posted my post elsewhere, but this has nothing to do with what I said. I'm just saying the highlights do not feel like real football at all. And I know there's been issues with any version, but it feels worse than ever here for me.

Edited November 25, 2019 by hazzabish

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, hazzabish said:

 I'm just saying the highlights do not feel like real football at all. 

It's not real football though, it's little stickmen (or dots) animated on a computer screen. The more you expect it to look exactly like real football, the more you'll never enjoy it. Within the constraints of that, however, it does it's job in conveying what it needs to on screen. (actually does a remarkable job considering the insane amount of calculations going on at any one time)

It's like people years ago not playing Sonic because it doesn't look like a real hedgehog. 

[hazzabish]

3 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's not real football though, it's little stickmen (or dots) animated on a computer screen. The more you expect it to look exactly like real football, the more you'll never enjoy it. Within the constraints of that, however, it does it's job in conveying what it needs to on screen. (actually does a remarkable job considering the insane amount of calculations going on at any one time)

It's like people years ago not playing Sonic because it doesn't look like a real hedgehog. 

I don't expect it to look like real football, but the whole idea is for it to be heading in that direction as much as possible. In my view it's become less so in this version compared to others, and I will voice that. Immersion may not be important to you, but it is to most people who play the game.

Edited November 25, 2019 by hazzabish

[Svenc]

By the way, @Trent71 I think you'd like this one. It's an Oldie, admittedly, but I snatched it off WestHamGaz aka Gary Gazhammer1000s Twitter account back then. Was also complaining that he had "just" scored 2 Goals. Actually had the wit to complain only the AI was ever scoring lucky Goals (what about this West Ham one?) Plus: See a pattern in all of those shots inside the box, in particular 1st half? Answer inside of the spoiler.
 

 

Gaz has also Always been one of those shots+possession hunters. He's the posterchild of a Player who takes EXTREME measures to rack those numbers on the spreadsheet up, all the while decreasing the Chance to score (from open Play, that is within some actual space on the Occasion...). He's also one of many who despite pouring Lord knows how many Hours into this, have yet to realize that they dominate both numbers on that spreadsheet by total Default every time the OP would sit Deep to spoil. Given their General success, in Long-term saves, like …. every other week, as they'd be considered the big faves to win that match in the build-up.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Svenc

[Trent71]

@Svenc: That ricochet West Ham goal is just lit

 

Btw, people that moan about the ME should really look how far we've come since that FM15 highlight reel!

[Novem9]

Possibly you need to change your tactic details for last minutes where AI startet to play extra attacking for score? No?  

[Robioto]

I have to say I am experiencing this more than ever in FM2020. In my Chelsea save I am dominating games and creating countless good chances (as I watch the match engine) and yet time and time again even when I win and have 30 shots on goal and be lucky to score more than 2. Then the opposition will have a handful of shots on target and score from most. Often not even good chances, they just shoot and score.

I've lost count how many times I concede from the first shot on target. Last night before I went to bed was a fairly typical if a slightly extreme example. I was at home to newly promoted Fulham, went 3-0 up , was all over them, they didn't get shot in the first half. What happened in the second half? Fulham mustered up 2 shots on target and scored from both and you know what? After a season and watching the patterns of the match engine I expected this to happen and more often than not it does.

Add to this the sheer frustration of watching world class strikers hitting the keeper or the corner flag with when presented with good/great chances and the bloody wingers running to the byline and shooting and this is the most frustrating FM game I've played in many years. It's infuriating.

It's not like I am not having success. With Chelsea I won the Champion's League, came 2nd in the league and lost the FA Cup final in my first season. But I am really not enjoying the match day experience anywhere near as much as previous years, it really does feel like the match engine is a little all over the place. 

The worst thing? It feels like I'm playing a computer game and trying to crack a code rather than actually being a Football Manager, in the current state the immersion is lost on me. I might have to go back to an older version in the hope of this being patched. Normally I lose myself in an FM save, this time I feeling like I'm battling it.

I know it doesn't do much good moaning, so I've started compiling pkms and will upload my countless examples to the bugs forum later on tonight.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Robioto

[herne79]

31 minutes ago, Robioto said:

I've started compiling pkms and will upload my countless examples to the bugs forum later on tonight.

[Tyburn]

It’s not just moaning. It’s pointing out deficiencies in the engine.

I‘ve played around with 3 tactics now, 3 different formations with 3 different mentalities. All I can say is that the opposition WILL score from 1 or two shots on goal very regularly even though I’m completely battering them in every stat, strikers will hit the ball into the side netting like it’s a magnet and wing play (crossing) is practically non existent. Why do my wingers stop, turn around and play the ball back to a full back when a perfectly good chance to cross is available? Why then does my full back not cross when in acres of room, but instead square it into midfield? Why do my wingers continually attempt a shot on goal from tight angles when a cross into my unmarked striker is so blatantly the option any normal player would choose? No amount of tactic tweaking, player instructions etc seem to make a difference.

All observations made by many others. Presumably a patch (asap) will address these issues.

[Dixie93]

11 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

It’s not just moaning. It’s pointing out deficiencies in the engine.

I‘ve played around with 3 tactics now, 3 different formations with 3 different mentalities. All I can say is that the opposition WILL score from 1 or two shots on goal very regularly even though I’m completely battering them in every stat, strikers will hit the ball into the side netting like it’s a magnet and wing play (crossing) is practically non existent. Why do my wingers stop, turn around and play the ball back to a full back when a perfectly good chance to cross is available? Why then does my full back not cross when in acres of room, but instead square it into midfield? Why do my wingers continually attempt a shot on goal from tight angles when a cross into my unmarked striker is so blatantly the option any normal player would choose? No amount of tactic tweaking, player instructions etc seem to make a difference.

All observations made by many others. Presumably a patch (asap) will address these issues.

I'm with you on this, it's unplayable at the moment

[sporadicsmiles]

24 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

I‘ve played around with 3 tactics now, 3 different formations with 3 different mentalities. All I can say is that the opposition WILL score from 1 or two shots on goal very regularly even though I’m completely battering them in every stat,

With trepidation at wading into this thread, this kinda thing is purely tactical. Most often it comes from the user overcommiting to force a goal, and getting caught on the break. In particular towards the end of a game, when a defensive AI side will become more positive if the game is still close (they will do this almost every single time). You still have to take care of the defensive side of things, because the only stat that matters is the scoreline. I am playing as a side who come up against a parked bus frequently at the moment, so I am speaking from experience. The not scoring is usually due to not creating and/or using space against sides who just want to sit in front of goal. This is trickier, and the current ME does not help either.

32 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Why do my wingers stop, turn around and play the ball back to a full back when a perfectly good chance to cross is available

I admit this is something that is too prevalent in the ME. Although I suspect that work ball into box makes it happen more often. A cross is not working the ball into the box, after all. I would assume this is a known issue though.

33 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Why then does my full back not cross when in acres of room, but instead square it into midfield?

This is again likely related to work ball into box, although the game is a lot more cross averse than FM19 (which was too cross prone actually).

34 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Why do my wingers continually attempt a shot on goal from tight angles when a cross into my unmarked striker is so blatantly the option any normal player would choose?

This is a known issue, so I agree with you here.

22 minutes ago, Dixie93 said:

I'm with you on this, it's unplayable at the moment

I have to disagree with you. The ME is far from perfect right now, and I too am looking forward to the next patch. However I am still able to enjoy this game. The AI is proving a bit more varied in how it plays this year - I am seeing more than just deep defenses from defensive sides. Despite the deficiencies of the ME, I have played some beautiful football and scored some lovely goals. I have been able to counter sides with tactical changes, and make tactical changes that have changed games. The game can be (and needs to be) improved, but it is entirely possible to play and enjoy as is.

[Dixie93]

4 hours ago, craiigman said:

Tried the changes and got my first defeat, away at Ajax.

Just can’t seem to get them going for some reason.

 

9 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

With trepidation at wading into this thread, this kinda thing is purely tactical. Most often it comes from the user overcommiting to force a goal, and getting caught on the break. In particular towards the end of a game, when a defensive AI side will become more positive if the game is still close (they will do this almost every single time). You still have to take care of the defensive side of things, because the only stat that matters is the scoreline. I am playing as a side who come up against a parked bus frequently at the moment, so I am speaking from experience. The not scoring is usually due to not creating and/or using space against sides who just want to sit in front of goal. This is trickier, and the current ME does not help either.

I admit this is something that is too prevalent in the ME. Although I suspect that work ball into box makes it happen more often. A cross is not working the ball into the box, after all. I would assume this is a known issue though.

This is again likely related to work ball into box, although the game is a lot more cross averse than FM19 (which was too cross prone actually).

This is a known issue, so I agree with you here.

I have to disagree with you. The ME is far from perfect right now, and I too am looking forward to the next patch. However I am still able to enjoy this game. The AI is proving a bit more varied in how it plays this year - I am seeing more than just deep defenses from defensive sides. Despite the deficiencies of the ME, I have played some beautiful football and scored some lovely goals. I have been able to counter sides with tactical changes, and make tactical changes that have changed games. The game can be (and needs to be) improved, but it is entirely possible to play and enjoy as is.

I get what your saying but when your wingers get to the byline and have a chance to square it yet they hammer the side netting, it is pretty frustrating. It's unplayable in the fact it does feel unrealistic and you're squandering opportunities non stop. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Dixie93

[Tyburn]

17 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

With trepidation at wading into this thread, this kinda thing is purely tactical. Most often it comes from the user overcommiting to force a goal, and getting caught on the break. In particular towards the end of a game, when a defensive AI side will become more positive if the game is still close (they will do this almost every single time). You still have to take care of the defensive side of things, because the only stat that matters is the scoreline. I am playing as a side who come up against a parked bus frequently at the moment, so I am speaking from experience. The not scoring is usually due to not creating and/or using space against sides who just want to sit in front of goal. This is trickier, and the current ME does not help either.

I admit this is something that is too prevalent in the ME. Although I suspect that work ball into box makes it happen more often. A cross is not working the ball into the box, after all. I would assume this is a known issue though.

This is again likely related to work ball into box, although the game is a lot more cross averse than FM19 (which was too cross prone actually).

This is a known issue, so I agree with you here.

I have to disagree with you. The ME is far from perfect right now, and I too am looking forward to the next patch. However I am still able to enjoy this game. The AI is proving a bit more varied in how it plays this year - I am seeing more than just deep defenses from defensive sides. Despite the deficiencies of the ME, I have played some beautiful football and scored some lovely goals. I have been able to counter sides with tactical changes, and make tactical changes that have changed games. The game can be (and needs to be) improved, but it is entirely possible to play and enjoy as is.

I appreciate you agreeing that all of my points are in fact ME related and not in fact that I don’t have 20 years of experience with this title

I don’t play with work ball into box.

I will also add that late game, defending a lead, noticeably, changing mentality, tactic, anything, seems to have little difference against an ai on steroids scoring from outside the box with their first shot on goal.

Of course not all the time... but it’s noticeable, and that’s all anyone is suggesting. These deficiencies, because that’s what I believe them to be, are noticeable.

One more thing to add is that other than these issues the ME is the best it’s ever been at feeling like real football. It just needs a few tweaks.

Edited November 25, 2019 by sidslayer

[CFuller]

The match engine cannot tell the difference between a human-managed team and an AI-managed team. Even implying that the AI has an unfair advantage over your team is just wrong.

If you keep losing matches that your team dominated statistically and/or the AI keeps scoring late on with their only shot on goal, there's usually a good reason for that. Maybe, as others have said, you're just throwing attackers at a defensive AI, leaving your defence horribly exposed when the AI gets a chance to counter-attack. Maybe your players aren't up to scratch. Maybe you're just horribly unlucky.

Every week in real-life football, you will find examples of teams losing matches despite having far more shots and enjoying much more possession than the opposition. Ultimately, the only statistic that matters is the scoreline at the final whistle.

When it comes to these matches happening on FM, feel free to report them as bugs, so the match engine team can have a look and see if there is a genuine problem with the ME. I suspect, though, that the 'problem' may - more often than not - be down to your tactics.

There. I said it.

[Tyburn]

I’m not losing matches. I’m noticing annoying anomalies.

Im not moaning because I can’t win. I’m winning. I just think that crossing needs looking at, shooting into the side netting needs looking at and the fact that one in every two or three games the ai scores from one or two shots on goal also needs looking at.

Multiple tactics, multiple mentalities and instructions. 20 years experience.

Edited November 25, 2019 by sidslayer

[Dixie93]

Just now, sidslayer said:

I’m not losing matches. I’m noticing annoying anomalies.

Im not moaning because I can’t win. I’m winning. I just think that crossing needs looking at, shooting into the side netting needs looking at and the fact that one in every two or three games the ai scores from one or two shots on goal also needs looking at.

I'm with you on this. Exactly the same scenario where I can win but when there is such a blatant deficiency in the game is when it gets annoying. 

[FMunderachiever]

In layman's terms, without getting into all the technicalities

Is there REALLY any reason to be watching wide players firing the ball into the near post side netting all game?

 

Like, irrespective of tactical set up, that just wouldn't happen. The end.

[KamyKaze]

1 hour ago, sidslayer said:

It’s not just moaning. It’s pointing out deficiencies in the engine.

I‘ve played around with 3 tactics now, 3 different formations with 3 different mentalities. All I can say is that the opposition WILL score from 1 or two shots on goal very regularly even though I’m completely battering them in every stat, strikers will hit the ball into the side netting like it’s a magnet and wing play (crossing) is practically non existent. Why do my wingers stop, turn around and play the ball back to a full back when a perfectly good chance to cross is available? Why then does my full back not cross when in acres of room, but instead square it into midfield? Why do my wingers continually attempt a shot on goal from tight angles when a cross into my unmarked striker is so blatantly the option any normal player would choose? No amount of tactic tweaking, player instructions etc seem to make a difference.

All observations made by many others. Presumably a patch (asap) will address these issues.

This is my biggest issue of this ME, together with the lack of central play by AMC and PL positions.

No matter what I try, I keep seeing the wide players waste good chances to cross, and when they do cross is always to the opposite winger, not the striker...

I love to make tactics that focus on getting the striker to be the top goalscorer, and this just isn't possible at the moment...

[Dixie93]

3 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

In layman's terms, without getting into all the technicalities

Is there REALLY any reason to be watching wide players firing the ball into the near post side netting all game?

 

Like, irrespective of tactical set up, that just wouldn't happen. The end.

[Robioto]

9 minutes ago, CFuller said:

The match engine cannot tell the difference between a human-managed team and an AI-managed team. Even implying that the AI has an unfair advantage over your team is just wrong.

I'm well aware of this, but it could be the way the AI has been programmed (speculating, but it feels like this) to work in a way that  is making these kinds of frustrating situations prevalent. There feels like there must be something in the way the AI sets up at a high over arching level in the code which allows this to happen on such a consistent basis in FM2020 specifically for so many users. In no way am I (personally) implying that the AI is 'cheating' or 'scripted' as I know full well that it isn't.

[Team Woopie]

Other than wing play, which it seems pretty much everyone agrees needs a tweak, I think it plays great. 

I just smashed Auxerre 5-0 with Le Havre so it must be 😉

Seriously though I think a lot misjudge the potential for teams to park the bus, absorb a battering for 80 mins and then do you on the counter because your tactic is set to press like nutters with a higher line, dominating possession. This happens often IRL (a la Palace the last two times they’ve played away to Man City).

match engine needs a tweak to wing play for sure though, but the possession and shots should automatically equal lots of goals doesn’t resonate with my experiences and expectations 

[Team Woopie]

I also think there’s a direct correlation between the tweaks needed to wing play and chances created. Stands to reason that knocking more crosses in for a team dominating possession may well lead to better chances, rather than the current winger passing it 30 yards back to a defensive midfielder

[sporadicsmiles]

2 hours ago, Dixie93 said:

I get what your saying but when your wingers get to the byline and have a chance to square it yet they hammer the side netting, it is pretty frustrating. It's unplayable in the fact it does feel unrealistic and you're squandering opportunities non stop. 

I can see where you come from too, as this is quite annoying (although I do not really see it that often, which is possibly related to how I play, but clearly others have more issues).

2 hours ago, sidslayer said:

I appreciate you agreeing that all of my points are in fact ME related and not in fact that I don’t have 20 years of experience with this title

What would be the point of denying issues that clearly exist? There is enough animosity on these forums that I would really rather not add to it! Anyway, my point for replying to these threads is to try to disentangle things that are genuine problems (like crossing, like some decisions wide players make, like weird VAR penalties, etc) from those things users can actually do things  to avoid.

2 hours ago, sidslayer said:

I will also add that late game, defending a lead, noticeably, changing mentality, tactic, anything, seems to have little difference against an ai on steroids scoring from outside the box with their first shot on goal.

I'd strongly argue this is not the case, because I have had to do this several times, and each time my changes worked. As soon as I see the AI going attacking (and especially the extreme attacking you note here), I will change how I play. Focus on defending as a team (no counter press or high press), forcing the ball wide or to encourage long shots through a crowded area. Focus on getting the ball forward quickly when we win it to create dangerous counters. I like it when the AI does this, more often than not their loosing their grip on their defense will give me a much better chance to score. Which I often do, to put a game to bed. The AI scoring with few shots at the end of games is more a user issue than an AI issue. The game does not distinguish between the two, so only seeing something happen with the AI is a surefire way to know it is a user issue. I mean, we could also play like the AI does here. Keep things tight for most of the match, and then explode in the final 15 minutes to search for a winner. And the time they are most dangerous is when they first switch their style of play, because we have to notice and react. Depending on the way you watch highlights, that could take some time. So their first shots will be their most dangerous. This is a reason I tend to go a little more conservative when I am leading and the game is winding down in general. To avoid missing the AI going to an attacking 424 and scoring on a counter that I am woefully unprepared for.

If SI come out and say that the AI doing this is actually a bug, then I will hold my hands up and say I was wrong. Until then, I will just try to explain how I stop these things and hope it helps someone else who struggles with it (as I have in the past).

[Tyburn]

I completely agree that wing play is most definitely the main issue here.

The goals against run of play, although too frequent when making tactical changes, both before a game and in game, imo, is not my main concern. Even the worldies from outside the box out of nowhere. Or the noticable cross field ifk’s. Those cross field ifk’s that are basically a carbon copy every two or three games. Again tactics ARE being altered. I will concede that perhaps my tactical changes are not working. But the same ifk over and again? The same worldie from outside the box? 

Getting wingers and full backs to behave like they would in reality and not like they’re drunk when going forward will hopefully create a fully rounded ME and not be a noticeable oddity. Then these smoke screen cheese goals (I’ve scored them too) wouldn’t look so bad.

[tajj7]

Aside the problem everyone has mentioned, people shooting from absurd angles, for me its going ok, if anything in my Bilbao save I seem to be winning games from very little, neither striker I have is world class but they are probably scoring from about every 2/3 chances they get.