Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

[Footsies]

11 hours ago, KUBI said:

Sounds like football. How many football manager could sign this statement? Just accept it, change your line-up, tweak your tactic and it might change. As in real football. Yes, it's a pain, but that is what I like about FM, it really gives you the joy and pain to be a manager.

 

Had to respond to this because it's nonsense. Not unusual though, because if you circulate these forums, you will see all the handpicked/groomed Moderators who are mere "yes-men" and deem certain rougher criticisms as "the unreasonable and uneducated opinion of the histerical unconstructive masses". The holier-than-thou vibes are as real as the scripting found in the ME; you don't see it and you don't know it for sure, but oh God is it there.

 

So I'll tell you what. I don't have a principled problem with this idea that sometimes you just have ups and downs as a manager as I'd like to see the game eventually emulate that to an extent. The problem is, you're stripping that idea/concept out of its context. My opinion is also that FM 2020 is one of the worst ones to date - virtually as bad as FM 2013. What happened in 2013 and what happens in 2020 is that you truly get the feeling sometimes there is some background code using its shenenigans, and that really, the ME is just deciding who is the winner and the loser. And that goes both ways (pro-you and against you). The mythology that you perpetuate is that somehow, some way, if you simply change the tactics or the players, you will get a different result and therefore everything is fine. I don't believe this is true at all. Maybe on some very well made ME, sure. But not on the current state of FM 2020. The issues would be way too many to even list here.

 

So the problem to me is not so much that you have ups and downs, it's 1) HOW or the manner in which you have those ups and downs; and 2) What TOOLS are available to you to stop the downs.

 

You can say whatever you want, but at some point you have to realize that this game is a mere simplified simulation of actual football; users are not getting on the actual training pitch, they're not interacting with players on a daily basis and having skin-on-skin contact with them, they're not smelling the grass, etc. There are a miriad of factors that EXIST in real life to EXPLAIN why managers like Ole or Emery have these downs; but that doesn't exist here because it's a goddamn videogame, period.

So you have to be careful on how harsh the ME is at handing out results. Sometimes it doesn't just feel like you have no control over it - you actually DO NOT have any control over it, or the tools to turn it around. I certainly have tried changing tactics, doing shouts and not doing shouts, doing more and less set piece training, doing more and less match preparation training, attending and not attending conferences, interacting and not interacting with players, having team meetings, but it all seems vapid and meaningless at the end of the day, because you're simply not in control and the ME decides to hand the game to your opponent (or sometimes, to you). And it does so in some undoubtedly unrealistic way that would never happen in real life (it's not like these teams are practising some sort super organized type of precise counter-attacking football like the Monaco of 3 seasons ago. Because trust me, they're NOT.)

 

So let me tell you my *TWO* personal experiences with Sporting (from Portugal) on the very same save. We're a decentish enough team who is supposed to battle for 2nd/3rd place and maybe get a few sporadic pieces of silverware.

Things got so dicy, that by 22nd January 2020, I decided to start all over again. I decided to retry with the same save game from 1st July 2019, and make an experiment to see what really in the Hell was going on. (I was tired of shouting at my monitor and facepalming with the miriad of absurdities present in the game)

 

I mostly used a 4-2-3-1 on both saves - 2 CMs (1 defensive 1 BBM), 1 ACM (Bruno Fernandes), 2 wingers/IF.

 

Both saves ended in January/February at around 3th-4th place. Insanely inconsistent results all the time. What shocked me on the second save was that Guimaraes was somehow first with 1 point advantage, when we were about to turn March (a total joke); when in reality they were in a very, very distant 6th on my first save (which is what you'd expect from them).

On the first save, I finally lost my mind and said "screw it" when I drew 2-2 on the League Cup Semi-finals. 1-1 at 90' minutes, we get 5' ET. They scored on the 94th. On the next play, I score on the 95th - 2-2 of course.... Then we went to Penalties, and I missed all my 3 penalties, and then they scored their 3 Penalties. All my Penalty takers were no scrubs either, but okay. Nothing to see here, right?

Well, in both of those saves, I got knocked out of the Cup on the very first round. First a 1-0 against a second division team, another time 2-0 by another joke of a 3rd division team that I had never even heard the name of before. These things are not mere coincidences, jokes, or conspiracies. This is what I mean when I refer back to "background code shenenigans" - it's so obvious and blatant at times, like I've never seen on FM before, and I've been playing this game for over a decade. The only redeeming factor to both these matches - they were away games.

Goalkeepers are turning into shot stopping machines, or you get 3-4 balls hitting the post. These things don't happen once in a blue moon, they happen every few games, which is worrying. I thought these were mythologies made up by guys who just happened to be the unlucky, but it sure is happening with me now on 2020. Getting 25, 30 shots a game, still losing. Then the player's confidence goes down and you're back to having only 15 to 20 shots, but you barely win 1-0 on some dumb play that is unrealistic or weird. Etc, etc.

In both saves I had more or less the same form consistency - in other words, none. Win 2 games, then lose, then draw, then win, then draw, then win 2, then lose twice, then win 2, then draw. The only consistency I ever found was that the game is consistently inconsistent, and quite frankly, the tools that it gives you to turn around your form aren't there (because the ME decides results anyway) or they're simply ineffective. One thing I have to reiterate - I'm not a person that complains too much or gets too frustrated about losing, but I do get frustrated in the manner in which you lose (or win), because it's often times absurd. Just play the game and you'll see it (no, really.)

Not at any point in both saves I was able to even get a good, solid 1st Half Team Talk in the team - I get it, because I'm a new manager and I don't have connections with the players yet. But when you get to January and you're still getting the very same problems and not one person reacts? You have to do the same old "I have faith in you" and even that is a 50% chance crapshoot. And then you say "screw it, I'll leave it to the Ass Manager" and that doesn't work either! (unlike in previous games) Then you're royally ****ed. You basically have to sit around for the 1st Half to end, and THEN you get the easy positive responses - you simply say "you're doing well / badly" or "don't get complacent". (Yes, I selected the top coaching badge and international experience so this wouldn't be a problem.)

What I don't understand also is how INSANELY unaware the game/ME is of a match result at any given time. I will explain. Let's say we need to win a game and we are expected to do so. Often times I am down by 1 goal in the second half, and just kept doing shouts to see if I'd finally get a response or some highlights. Getting a response doesn't seem too hard (the frequency at which they trigger a positive response seeems fairly balanced, but the effects are virtually none...), but the highlights?... What I'd see is the players simply giving up from minute 70 to minute 90. Or maybe if youre lucky you get a minor replay. And I use EXTENDED HIGHLIGHTS. But it's like the whole team shuts down mentally and forgets that there is a result we need to get. No amount of tactical changes or substitutions can fix this whole mess, sorry. It's like they're completly unaware that they have a game they're expected to win, the ME simply decides "well, today your players don't give two craps, sorry. Have this 20-minute period with zero highlights, have fun". Sorry dude, it's not fun. It's destroying the game. The typical response to this would be "maybe you have a team with no Determination" but that's simply not the case either. They average somewhere around 15-16 Determination, and the opposition is really not that strong at all.

A lot of the matches are just absurd, for instance my player Wendel played consistently below-average, never scoring any goal, but then I win a 8-0 thrashing where he scores 4 long shots. Sorry, it makes no sense, I thought this had been fixed (and it has been fixed), but somehow one player scores zero long shots throughout the season, and then scores 4 in one match. Okay, sure.

What pissed me off too is how bad the scheduling is as well - often times, WITHOUT an international break, I would have a week without matches. Result? Everyone else is already at 23-25 games played and I'm at 20 games played. I'm always 3, 4 or 5 games behind and playing catchup and it feels horrible... it's not like I'm playing more international or cup matches then our old rivals Porto or Benfica either - so clearly this is broken in some way.

The very first competitive match I played on FM 2020 was a 4-0 win Supercup against Benfica (they're supposed to be a bit better than us) - that set my alarms off immediatly. I thought "well, maybe we can carry this form from here on out" but it just wasn't the case. We didn't really dominate that match, either. Now you'd say sure, it reminds me of the 4-0 Man Utd win against Chelsea at the opening of the season, but I go back to my argument that you have no control whatsoever over anything. That's how the game feels to me, a slot machine. You can't just look at the scoreboard and call it "realistic" - it's "realistic" as far as the ME is able to conjure 2 goals from 2 wide Indirect free kicks, conjure 2 perfect headers, and then you lose the game 2-0 with 32 shots (you) vs 4 shots (AI). There is a pervasive feeling of loss of control throughout FM 2020, you're just watching a movie that you didn't really help direct. 

 

 

Now let's talk about player performance.

Bruno Fernandes is the absolute World Class star of my team, and I used him as the CAM; but unsurprisingly, he doesn't really play like he actually does in real life. That's not shocking. What is shocking is that in 16 League games, he only scored 2 goals, and assisted 3. What is perhaps even more shocking, is that he is the set piece taker of the team (All corners + All Fks), and that the two goals he scored were BOTH penalties. I'm sorry, but on this alone, you know your game is completly broken.

Are you not shocked yet? Well get ready, because on my second save, he got 7 goals and 7 assists in his first 8 League games. How does that make any sense? There is like a 6x factor disparity from one save to the other!? But see, what's perhaps EVEN MORE shocking is that after finding such good goalscoring form (initially), he went on a 10-league match streak without finding a single goal. Not one. Now explain to me what is the difference between playing FM 2020 or playing Hearthstone. Or going to a casino. Very little, I'll tell you that. Same player, same instructions, same AM role, virtually the same tactic (if you want to be pedantic, when he was playing well on my second save I actually dropped "Be Expressive" instruction, which makes even less sense). So he went from 16 matches = 2 PENS + 3A on the first save; to 8 matches = 7G+7A; to 18 matches =7G+11A on the second.

Does it at least mimmick the real life Bruno Fernandes? Hell no. I play on Extended Replays, and in total he maybe made 2-3 legit through balls to create goal scoring opportunities, AT MOST (I'm being generous because I actually only remember one). It's all about (narrow) wingplay, there is no carving through balls on the middle of the park. None. It's baffling. That's with all his passing, vision, flair, and the Try Killer Balls trait, and the "take more risks" instruction. I'm sorry, the state of the game is in the gutter right now. Yes, previous versions didn't get it perfect either, and historically CAMs (and especially Attacking Playmakers) in this game have always been a joke, but FM 2020 takes the cake. There is no consistency or realism to it. Sometimes he plays great, sometimes he plays like total crap - it's totally random and it doesn't matter.

This total randomness could easily be seen in the form of other players too.

On my second save, the first non-penalty goal my main Striker scored (Luiz Phillipe) was on freaking January 2020. I repeat, January 2020!!!! It's like his movement sucks completly, or he is a ghost, lost in the middle of the center backs and never getting involved. And when he rarely does, it's to miss yet another header (14 Heading/15 Jumping + 188cm). I changed him from TM (S) to TM (A) in the hopes that he would act a bit more like a poacher and run into some through balls - maybe that would be a way to get him some goals? But nah. (You see the theme here? Nothing you do actually matters. That's why FM 2020 is so bad) He might not be the greatest or fastest striker, but undeniably on both saves, his goalscoring record was a badly constructed joke. (First save: 1 Non-penalty goal in 14 league matches; Second save: 2 Non-penalty goals in 14 league matches)

I bought a striker Leandro Cardoso and I have Pedro Mendes as well - upcoming 19-20 year old strikers that are okay backups with good potential for the future. On my second save, Literally the first league match, I use Leandro Cardoso (Advanced Forward), he gets an hattrick. What does any avid FM player do? "Oh, this guy is on form, let's give him a run of games even though his attributes aren't the greatest" - he never recovered. Barely scored any goals at all from then on.

On the first save, Pedro Mendes gets a shout for the first time, on the second League match, I KID YOU NOT, he gets an hattrick as well. What happens after that? Barren goalspelling record. Nothing, zero. To be fair, he did go on to find better form latter on, but that was waaaay later in January/February... what are the correlation points here? Why are my worst strikers actually scoring goals... in one match. And then nothing in the others? And why does my main scorer scores almost none as well (Luiz Phelipe)? All mysteries, you'd think I would be making this up...

On the first save, at least I had the luxury of having wingers/IFs who were in some form. Lucianno Vietto, Jovane Cabral, and even Gonzalo Plata scored and assisted some goals. On the second save, they were totally different players. Vietto was being played regularly, I interacted with him - "higher standards if you want first team" - nothing. Played like crap every single game. It took him getting to January until he finally got some form. Apart from Jovane Cabral, all my other wing options were playing like total crap (unlike in my first save), so they had to drag along and get carried by Fernandes. It made it impossible to get out of the slump of results in a consistent way.

It's totally random and blatantly so - I feel that the way the ME decides which players will be in form or not is too extreme and not as consistent as it should be. And mind you, I did try to pick the players based on form, training performances and so on. But when the whole goddamn team is playing like total crap and you have no good options to play on the wings, and by the way your main striker can't score a single goal (does Target Man suck?), you're screwed.

Eduardo Henrique, who I'd say is a below-average midfielder, was apparently the star of BOTH SAVES, so there was some consistency there. Just put him on a Roaming Playmaker role, and he's off to getting 8.0's+ on a consistent basis - and he doesn't need to score or assist either. He went from a 2.5 star player, to a 4 star or 4.5 star player, not because his attributes went up in any meaningful way (they barely moved), but just because he was playing out of his mind... which I understand to an extent, but at what point does the game go "but wait, he actually is kinda crap attribute wise so why does he deserve 4 stars?". So he went from like 3 Million in value, to 14M in value, growing 4x. Is RPM an overpowered role? Maybe something to look at? Because my BBM (Wendel) was mostly useless, frankly. It seems like some roles are not performing as good as they should.

 

 

Overall I've found the game to encounter a pervasive problem it didn't before - the problem is not with some random guy on the Internet who happened to be the 0.1% of the bottom of luck of players worldwide, no. You can see that the ME decides things for itself both against you, and in favour of you - it's not too uncommon for you to win matches you didn't dominate either, just so you can lose next week to an irrelevant midtable team. There is a clear loss of control where the input of the user (you know, the so called "playing the game") really doesn't matter because it's all a very big and very convoluted / glorified slot machine.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Footsies

[herne79]

33 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Thanks. Do all bug reports get looked at? I've submitted nine so far for FM20 and most have had no reply.

Yes, even if it's a known issue every bug report gets looked at and (if relevant information is included such as a pkm) will be logged for further review and investigation (or combined into known issues).  Replies or even just a simple acknowledgement would always be welcome but unfortunately it's just not always possible given the workloads.

I know it can suck a bit when you've put in lots of effort to report issues and then apparent silence in return, just rest assured that silence does not equate to ignoring.

[HUNT3R]

34 minutes ago, Footsies said:

Had to respond to this because it's nonsense. Not unusual though, because if you circulate these forums, you will see all the handpicked/groomed Moderators who are mere "yes-men" and deem certain rougher criticisms as "the unreasonable and uneducated opinion of the histerical unconstructive masses". The holier-than-thou vibes are as real as the scripting found in the ME; you don't see it and you don't know it for sure, but oh God is it there.

Okay, 2 things right off the bat since you're new - if you're going to insult people you're going to pick up infractions. Secondly, matches aren't scripted.

 

34 minutes ago, Footsies said:

What happened in 2013 and what happens in 2020 is that you truly get the feeling sometimes there is some background code using its shenenigans, and that really, the ME is just deciding who is the winner and the loser. And that goes both ways (pro-you and against you). The mythology that you perpetuate is that somehow, some way, if you simply change the tactics or the players, you will get a different result and therefore everything is fine. I don't believe this is true at all. Maybe on some very well made ME, sure. But not on the current state of FM 2020. The issues would be way too many to even list here.

As said above, there's no scripting. When your match starts, the game/ME doesn't even yet know the final result. It's not a myth - these are facts. If you have questions around it, I am happy to explain in more detail.

34 minutes ago, Footsies said:

So you have to be careful on how harsh the ME is at handing out results. Sometimes it doesn't just *feel* like you have no control over it - you actually *DO NOT* have any control over it, or the tools to turn it around. I certainly have tried changing tactics, doing shouts and not doing shouts, doing more and less set piece training, doing more and less match preparation training, attending and not attending conferences, interacting and not interacting with players, having team meetings, but it all seems vapid and meaningless at the end of the day, because you're simply not in control and the ME decides to hand the game to your opponent (or sometimes, to you). And it does so in some undoubtedly unrealistic way that would never happen in real life (it's not like these teams are practising some sort super organized type of precise counter-attacking football like the Monaco of 3 seasons ago. Because trust me, they're NOT.)

You do have the tools to be able to change an outcome. Any change you make will cause the match to recalculate. You can swing things more in your favour or you can make things worse.

The ME just calculates. There's no bias. It also can't distinguish between human and AI. It's not there to pick a side to win just because it wants to. The ME calculates match events and whatever the score is at the end, is the score. No bias at all.

34 minutes ago, Footsies said:

What I don't understand also is how INSANELY unaware the game/ME is of a match result. I will explain. Let's say we need to win a game and we are expected to do so. Often times I was down by 1 goal in the second half, and just kept doing shouts to see if I'd finally get a response or some highlights. Getting a response doesn't seem too hard, but the highlights?... Often times what I'd see, is the players simply giving up from minute 70 to minute 90. Or maybe if youre lucky you get a minor replay. And I use EXTENDED HIGHLIGHTS. But it's like the whole team shuts down mentally and forgets that there is a result to get. No amount of tactical changes or substitutions can fix the whole team, sorry. It's like they're completly unaware that they have a game they're expected to win, the ME simply decides "well, today your players don't give two craps, sorry. Have this 20-minute period with zero highlights, have fun". Sorry dude, it's not fun. It's destroying the game. The typical response to this would be "maybe you have a team with no Determination" but that's simply not the case either. They average somewhere around 15-16 Determination.

What's likely happening here is that the AI team IS aware of the match context and decides to go more defensive, especially if there's something to protect (a draw or a lead) and especially since it's against a good team like Sporting and they're expecting to be attacked. If you're not getting highlights - it is because they're either doing a good job defensively or your attack is poor and you're not creating proper chances. There's nothing sinister going on. Just because you're not able to break defensive teams down, doesn't make it a universal problem. 

 

I'm not going to respond to the rest because it's much of the same. I'd definitely recommend visiting the tactics forum for advice on how to be more consistent and also what you can do to change a game you're losing/drawing in. 

 

[herne79]

@Footsies  As one of my colleagues has responded to you I've unhidden your post.  I strongly recommend you don't throw any further insults around and stick to feedback about the game.

[Keyzer Soze]

@Footsies

Both your saves are a really good replica of Sporting Lisbon season this year. A very inconsistent team, with a couple of wins, and then some shocking defeats.

Hey, you even got knock out of the cup by a low division team like they did (they lost in the first round of the cup to Alverca, who play in the third division).

As you probably know, they are in 4th place in the league, 13 point behind the leader, and they will probably be knock out in the group phase of the League Cup.

So the truth is, playing with Sporting is not a easy challenge, because in fact (and FM reflect that pretty well) they have a very unbalanced team, with only on trully quality player (Bruno Fernandes). To be honest i even think that FM favoured some players, but that's another question.

 

Now, i've play a couple of saves, usually with Benfica, and to my surprise, Sporting usually plays better in FM world when compare to real life. In all my safes they were my strongest opponent, usually ending the league in second place, ahead of Porto.

So, a with this i'm not saying that the ME is perfect (far from it) but it seems that you are having some tactical dificulties that are preventing you from getting the best from Sporting, because, to be honest, with one or two cheaps signings, you can challenge for the league even in the first year. After all, it's always easy to have sucess in FM then in real life. Hell, you can even win the champions league with a minor team after 2 or 3 years into the save.

So, don't despare, have a look ate the tactical forum. There are very good variants of the 4231 that you like to play, so you can take some ideas.

And, about Bruno Fernandes, great player, a bit of advice. Play him in the midfield duo like a BTB or a MC with some player instruction. In there he will get more space to explore his main weapon: long shots.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Keyzer Soze

[Footsies]

28 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

@Footsies

Both your saves are a really good replica of Sporting Lisbon season this year. A very inconsistent team, with a couple of wins, and then some shocking defeats.

Hey, you even got knock out of the cup by a low division team like they did (they lost in the first round of the cup to Alverca, who play in the third division).

As you probably know, they are in 4th place in the league, 13 point behind the leader, and they will probably be knock out in the group phase of the League Cup.

So the truth is, playing with Sporting is not a easy challenge, because in fact (and FM reflect that pretty well) they have a very unbalanced team, with only on trully quality player (Bruno Fernandes). To be honest i even think that FM favoured some players, but that's another question.

 

Now, i've play a couple of saves, usually with Benfica, and to my surprise, Sporting usually plays better in FM world when compare to real life. In all my safes they were my strongest opponent, usually ending the league in second place, ahead of Porto.

So, a with this i'm not saying that the ME is perfect (far from it) but it seems that you are having some tactical dificulties that are preventing you from getting the best from Sporting, because, to be honest, with one or two cheaps signings, you can challenge for the league even in the first year. After all, it's always easy to have sucess in FM then in real life. Hell, you can even win the champions league with a minor team after 2 or 3 years into the save.

So, don't despare, have a look ate the tactical forum. There are very good variants of the 4231 that you like to play, so you can take some ideas.

And, about Bruno Fernandes, great player, a bit of advice. Play him in the midfield duo like a BTB or a MC with some player instruction. In there he will get more space to explore his main weapon: long shots.

 

I take all you've said well, but with a pinch of salt.

 

The truth is in every single FM except 2013 and 2020 I've managed to be champion on the first season with Sporting. Always. So what changed? It wasn't my tactic because it's been more or less the same, and it isn't the lack of experience because I've been playing the game for ages.

In fact, if you remember the big hit in quality that Sporting took was in FM 2019 - when the team lost a bunch of its players in the Academy attack. What results did I achieve in FM 2019? Champion in Portugal. Won the Euro League. Won all the cups except one (don't remember which one, but got 2/3 from Cup, League Cup and Supertaca). I won the CL finals against Man City twice in back to back years (3rd and 4th season), always champion in Portugal.

 

Now you're telling me in two (incomplete) saves all I can get is a 3rd or 4th? How many times would I have to replicate the experiment until I prove my point? Because to me the game in this state is simply not fun anymore, and quite frankly, what even lead me to waste 3 hours to reply to the moderator's post is because I'm tired of this nonsense that "well, you got it wrong!" - no, the game got it wrong! It's far from being the perfect piece of software and I've had it with the excuses quite frankly. Some things just do not make sense, no matter how many Ole's, how many Emerys and how many Alverca 2-0's, 2015 Leicester's or Man Utd 4-0 Chelsea's you can point to in real life.

 

I'm simply trying to use an Occam's Razor explanation here, because while a newbie may as well struggle with the game and may get the tactics wrong, I refuse to not believe that there is something afoot and deeply wrong here. This FM is the exception, not the rule.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Footsies

[Mitja]

I think most of frustration comes from the fact that it's too easy to generate really high amount of shots and shots on target. There is very little you're doing wrong if you constantly see your team having 20+ shots and 10 on target. Best teams in the world avarage some 15-20 shots per game. Usually smaller teams that surprise bigger manage to limit shots on target to way bellow 10. 10 shots on taret usually means goals galore. 

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376055/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Arsenal-Brighton

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376285/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Everton-Chelsea

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376045/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Newcastle-United-Manchester-City

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376037/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Chelsea-West-Ham

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376029/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Sheffield-United-Manchester-United

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376025/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Everton-Norwich

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376011/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Tottenham-Sheffield-United

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1415836/MatchReport/Italy-Serie-A-2019-2020-Lazio-Juventus

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1415841/MatchReport/Italy-Serie-A-2019-2020-Torino-Fiorentina

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1415825/MatchReport/Italy-Serie-A-2019-2020-Fiorentina-Lecce

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1415831/MatchReport/Italy-Serie-A-2019-2020-Napoli-Bologna

I believe even Svenc sees the pattern here.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Mitja

[HUNT3R]

16 minutes ago, Footsies said:

 

I take all you've said well, but with a pinch of salt.

 

The truth is in every single FM except 2013 and 2020 I've managed to be champion on the first season with Sporting. Always. So what changed? It wasn't my tactic because it's been more or less the same, and it isn't the lack of experience because I've been playing the game for ages.

In fact, if you remember the big hit in quality that sporting took was in FM 2019 - when the team lost a bunch of its players in the Academy attack. What results did I achieve in FM 2019? Champion in Portugal. Won the Euro League. Won all the cups except one (don't remember which one, but got 2/3 from Cup, League Cup and Supertaca).

 

Now you're telling me in two (incomplete) saves all I can get is a 3rd or 4th? How many times would I have to replicate the experiment until I prove my point? Because to me the gamein this state is simply not fun anymore.

 

I'm simply trying to use an Occam's Razor explanation here, because while a newbie may as well struggle with the game and may get the tactics wrong, I refuse to not believe that there is something afoot and deeply wrong here. This FM is the exception, not the rule.

It's incredibly frustrating, yes. I've been able to work myself up from the bottom leagues to eventually win the CL in every FM version. For some reason, even though I made 3 CL finals in FM14, I just couldn't win one. I don't blame FM14 though. I know it's something on my end. Either players choking or their manager.

 

As I said, there's an option to discuss this in the tactics forum. Maybe there's something you're doing or not doing that's making life in FM harder. Maybe you're not even noticing it! Sometimes an extra pair of eyes can help or someone looking at things from a different perspective. Detail your system and what you're doing, where things seem to be going wrong etc. That, imo, is the best thing to do and we have plenty of people willing to help or discuss issues.

[Footsies]

33 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

It's incredibly frustrating, yes. I've been able to work myself up from the bottom leagues to eventually win the CL in every FM version. For some reason, even though I made 3 CL finals in FM14, I just couldn't win one. I don't blame FM14 though.

 

As I said, there's an option to discuss this in the tactics forum. Maybe there's something you're doing or not doing that's making life in FM harder. Maybe you're not even noticing it! Sometimes an extra pair of eyes can help or someone looking at things from a different perspective. Detail your system and what you're doing, where things seem to be going wrong etc. That, imo, is the best thing to do and we have plenty of people willing to help or discuss issues.

There just is something different about this FM. I don't know what other people's experience is like because everyone will be managing different teams etc, but this is not normal whatsoever.

The problem that I described at lenght is that there is not one, two, three specific problems/situations. At some point while you're playing, you just facepalm deeply for 20 seconds because the ME/game decided yet again to throw another absurdity at you that makes no sense. In fact my best advice to the devs would be, to just play the goddamn game. It's all there, I'm not hallucinating, sorry.

 

What I found most glaring, is how by using the very same save twice, and running it through thinking you might have learnt something from the first time, you understand how real it actually is, and no, quite frankly I'm not going to subject myself to a third round of a mediocre team torturing me because we've just scored 1 goal 15 minutes in, and then I have to clench my butt for 75 minutes while I get almost no highlights at all for the rest of the match (with EXTENDED HIGHLIGHTS!! These dry spells never happened with FM before).

 

I could mention so and so much more, like for example, I literally don't remember the last time when I was down by 1 goal with 20 minutes to go, I changed to attacking or very attacking, and then we scored, HOW DOES THAT NEVER HAPPEN!? LITERALLY NOT OOOOONNNNNCCCCCEEEEE. Do you get it!? Go look at real life statistics, those last 15-20 minutes are fruitful for goals, yet the ME often times acts like "nope, nothing to see here!" even on Extended Highlights? Surely I'm not the only guy with this problem? Does the ME have any awareness that we are effing Sporting and we're effing playing Portimonense?! I know their morale isn't the highest, but goddamn. Sure, these aren't things that happen *every* single match or whatever, but trust me, it happens way too often.

Which is precisely why I immediatly ditched my 4-2-3-1 Attacking and went on a 4-2-3-1 Positive on my second try, but guess what, none of it mattered. That was the exact same attacking tactic that I used in 2019 to demolish every single plebian midtable team of Portugal, now it just doesn't work.

 

Consider me deeply skeptical that this is a tactical problem, because quite frankly, in yet another anti-logical parade of absurdity, my best performing winger (in BOTH SAVES) happens to play on a winger role, not an Inside forward role (Jovane Cabral, on a AMR Winger Support role)... EVEN THOUGH I USE OVERLAPPING FULLBAKS who are both Wing-Back on Attack. You'd think IFs would play better there, but somehow, no. Not for me. So how about that for logic and "my tactics are simply wrong"? None of it makes sense. Up is down, down is up, 1+1 is 11. Meanwhile Vietto, IF (S) on the other side, 5 months of atrocious form, with a quality Wing Back behind him (Acuna).

 

Did I mention i even selected the highest prizes for winning the competition possible, just to try to motivate my players and give them that little bit of edge? I get it, it has virtually no influence (1%), but how many times do I have to prove to you that I'm doing it right, it's just the game that is wrong?

Edited December 9, 2019 by Footsies

[Keyzer Soze]

53 minutes ago, Footsies said:

 

I take all you've said well, but with a pinch of salt.

 

The truth is in every single FM except 2013 and 2020 I've managed to be champion on the first season with Sporting. Always. So what changed? It wasn't my tactic because it's been more or less the same, and it isn't the lack of experience because I've been playing the game for ages.

In fact, if you remember the big hit in quality that Sporting took was in FM 2019 - when the team lost a bunch of its players in the Academy attack. What results did I achieve in FM 2019? Champion in Portugal. Won the Euro League. Won all the cups except one (don't remember which one, but got 2/3 from Cup, League Cup and Supertaca). I won the CL finals against Man City twice in back to back years (3rd and 4th season), always champion in Portugal.

 

Now you're telling me in two (incomplete) saves all I can get is a 3rd or 4th? How many times would I have to replicate the experiment until I prove my point? Because to me the game in this state is simply not fun anymore, and quite frankly, what even lead me to waste 3 hours to reply to the moderator's post is because I'm tired of this nonsense that "well, you got it wrong!" - no, the game got it wrong! It's far from being the perfect piece of software and I've had it with the excuses quite frankly. Some things just do not make sense, no matter how many Ole's, how many Emerys and how many Alverca 2-0's, 2015 Leicester's or Man Utd 4-0 Chelsea's you can point to in real life.

 

I'm simply trying to use an Occam's Razor explanation here, because while a newbie may as well struggle with the game and may get the tactics wrong, I refuse to not believe that there is something afoot and deeply wrong here. This FM is the exception, not the rule.

After re-reading what I've wrote I understand that you may think that I was being nasty. It was not my intention, perhaps just a bit of wealthy rivalry against a Sporting supporter . 

I've always looked at the ME as some set of rules of a game. Every game have rules, board games, computer games, etc, and FM have those rules, that in every version and in every update are slightly different. 

And, like in any version of the game, I try to make my tactic to, although looking reasonable in terms of real life football, scope with those rules in the best possible way. 

I'm not talking about exploting those rules, but the truth is There are some instructions that work good in one version, and in the next version, within the same tactic and with the same players they don't have the same effect! And why, well because the rules has changed a bit, when the ME is updated. 

That said, I understand the frustration, because I've been there: having a good tactic that stops working after a update. 

I also know that like myself, the vast majority of FM players suffers from the sindrome that wins will erase 90% of all ME issues. Sure, I've seen my wingers trying to shoot from impossible angles over and over again, but the fact that I've won all domestic titles kinda makes that issues a little less frustrating. Sure, I've seen my forward missing over and over again one on one situations, but reaching the semi finals in the championship league just makes me forget that. 

When instar playing FM20, I've used the exact same team and tactic from FM19. The result were a bit below of what I was expecting. Less wins, less shots, less possession. Why? Well the "rules" changed since FM19. 

So I adapted, a little bit, the winger turns into a RAUM, the fullback turns into wingback, the AP turns into DLP... Everything else the same, even instructions.... and the results improved to the level I was getting in FM19. 

The same is happening to you, you need to adapted to this new rules. 

I know it can be frustrating hearing the phrase "it's your tactics" but 99% its always the user tactic, because they are not working well with the set of rules the ME is implementing. 

[steviemay17]

I've played a decent amount with the new ME over the weekend and there's a lot of good things with it, I would say there's 2 major issues 

1) the long punts and consequently 1 vs 1s. It's not so much the frequency but the way the commentary interprets it, I'm playing with a Scottish League 2 side, one CS has 4 or less for composure and technique and a poor passing stat, so I could understand it if it was simply a panicked clearance that got lucky, but it always says he's played a great pass or searching for the striker - he simply shouldn't be good enough to pull off 2/3 hollywood balls a game.

2) set pieces - the actual delivery and first actions are fine, but it's the lack of any defensive actions as soon as the first header is made. The defenders can't clear the box, it doesn't matter how many players you put on the edge of the box they just don't react to a loose ball or to a player picking it up. It looks like the ME is more pre occupied with trying to have everybody transition slowly back into their positions rather than paying any attention to the actual phase of play thats going on. As a result - it's common to see 3/4/5 efforts from the same corner because there's no way to transition to get the ball back unless they score or put it out for a goal kick, which is why I'm ending games with a lot of 20+ shots from each side, it's mainly set pieces and the failure to transition back into normal play.

 

Apart from that, pretty enjoyable stuff - apart from always having one team in a division who sets their pitch dimensions so it's square, is that even legal? 

[Rayban_DK]

18 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

No, unfortunately 7th spot is the 'floating spot'. If a team from above 7th wins the cup, 7th place gets into Europe, but if a team below 7th wins the cup, then that team gets in ahead of the 7th place team. I'm sure the rules page explains it better than I can 

But in this case it was MU who won the FA Cup and the team placed 2. in the league. Shouldn't that mean that I get the last spot since I lost that FA Cup final and placed 7th?

[Mikke]

22 minutes ago, Rayban_DK said:

But in this case it was MU who won the FA Cup and the team placed 2. in the league. Shouldn't that mean that I get the last spot since I lost that FA Cup final and placed 7th?

Didn't you place 8th, and not 7th? At least according to your screenshot..

[upthetoon]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

I think most of frustration comes from the fact that it's too easy to generate really high amount of shots and shots on target. There is very little you're doing wrong if you constantly see your team having 20+ shots and 10 on target. Best teams in the world avarage some 15-20 shots per game. Usually smaller teams that surprise bigger manage to limit shots on target to way bellow 10. 10 shots on taret usually means goals galore. 

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376055/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Arsenal-Brighton

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376285/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Everton-Chelsea

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376045/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Newcastle-United-Manchester-City

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376037/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Chelsea-West-Ham

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376029/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Sheffield-United-Manchester-United

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376025/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Everton-Norwich

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376011/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Tottenham-Sheffield-United

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1415836/MatchReport/Italy-Serie-A-2019-2020-Lazio-Juventus

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1415841/MatchReport/Italy-Serie-A-2019-2020-Torino-Fiorentina

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1415825/MatchReport/Italy-Serie-A-2019-2020-Fiorentina-Lecce

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1415831/MatchReport/Italy-Serie-A-2019-2020-Napoli-Bologna

I believe even Svenc sees the pattern here.

This is spot on. There's way too many shots in the game. 

Almost any game regardless of quality will generate more than 10 shots on target per game. 

It needs looking at. 

[hazzabish]

1 hour ago, Footsies said:

There just is something different about this FM. I don't know what other people's experience is like because everyone will be managing different teams etc, but this is not normal whatsoever.

 

I'm feeling it, too. I'm doing very well with Arsenal, but the average ratings and patterns of play favoured by this ME are not enjoyable. I can't find any formation which allows strikers to score a good amount - my current formation is very successful but it's predicated on the wing backs, who are truly overpowered. Too many 6. something average ratings unless they score or get an assist.

[emil_sbn]

1 hour ago, Footsies said:

There just is something different about this FM. I don't know what other people's experience is like because everyone will be managing different teams etc, but this is not normal whatsoever.

The problem that I described at lenght is that there is not one, two, three specific problems/situations. At some point while you're playing, you just facepalm deeply for 20 seconds because the ME/game decided yet again to throw another absurdity at you that makes no sense. In fact my best advice to the devs would be, to just play the goddamn game. It's all there, I'm not hallucinating, sorry.

 

What I found most glaring, is how by using the very same save twice, and running it through thinking you might have learnt something from the first time, you understand how real it actually is, and no, quite frankly I'm not going to subject myself to a third round of a mediocre team torturing me because we've just scored 1 goal 15 minutes in, and then I have to clench my butt for 75 minutes while I get almost no highlights at all for the rest of the match (with EXTENDED HIGHLIGHTS!! These dry spells never happened with FM before).

 

I could mention so and so much more, like for example, I literally don't remember the last time when I was down by 1 goal with 20 minutes to go, I changed to attacking or very attacking, and then we scored, HOW DOES THAT NEVER HAPPEN!? LITERALLY NOT OOOOONNNNNCCCCCEEEEE. Do you get it!? Go look at real life statistics, those last 15-20 minutes are fruitful for goals, yet the ME often times acts like "nope, nothing to see here!" even on Extended Highlights? Surely I'm not the only guy with this problem? Does the ME have any awareness that we are effing Sporting and we're effing playing Portimonense?! I know their morale isn't the highest, but goddamn. Sure, these aren't things that happen *every* single match or whatever, but trust me, it happens way too often.

Which is precisely why I immediatly ditched my 4-2-3-1 Attacking and went on a 4-2-3-1 Positive on my second try, but guess what, none of it mattered. That was the exact same attacking tactic that I used in 2019 to demolish every single plebian midtable team of Portugal, now it just doesn't work.

 

Consider me deeply skeptical that this is a tactical problem, because quite frankly, in yet another anti-logical parade of absurdity, my best performing winger (in BOTH SAVES) happens to play on a winger role, not an Inside forward role (Jovane Cabral, on a AMR Winger Support role)... EVEN THOUGH I USE OVERLAPPING FULLBAKS who are both Wing-Back on Attack. You'd think IFs would play better there, but somehow, no. Not for me. So how about that for logic and "my tactics are simply wrong"? None of it makes sense. Up is down, down is up, 1+1 is 11. Meanwhile Vietto, IF (S) on the other side, 5 months of atrocious form, with a quality Wing Back behind him (Acuna).

 

Did I mention i even selected the highest prizes for winning the competition possible, just to try to motivate my players and give them that little bit of edge? I get it, it has virtually no influence (1%), but how many times do I have to prove to you that I'm doing it right, it's just the game that is wrong?

You mentioned somtething earlier about that sporting lost several players, that means perhaps this year you cant play exactly the same way as before.

And as mentioned before in each new version of the ME so many things change, whats not working in this version may very well work wonders for you in the next ME.

create a post in the tactic forum and I´m sure me and many others can try help you with some tips.

 

 

[emil_sbn]

2 minutes ago, hazzabish said:

I'm feeling it, too. I'm doing very well with Arsenal, but the average ratings and patterns of play favoured by this ME are not enjoyable. I can't find any formation which allows strikers to score a good amount - my current formation is very successful but it's predicated on the wing backs, who are truly overpowered. Too many 6. something average ratings unless they score or get an assist.

In my save its the other way around Im overly reliant on this guy with a very weak Bolton team and he doesnt even have that great stats...

[Johnny Ace]

You got Bolton promoted on a -12 point start? Kudos!

Edited December 9, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[bigidinlan]

3 hours ago, Footsies said:

what happens in 2020 is that you truly get the feeling sometimes there is some background code using its shenenigans, and that really, the ME is just deciding who is the winner and the loser.

That's how I feel as well. Maybe I am wrong, it doesn't run this way, but this is the first time in FM, I don't feel like I am in control. That's not about losses btw. I won German Cup, but I didn't feel like I achieved something. I felt like it was granted to me. The worse part is not losing the matches, but losing the joy or proud or whatever that feeling is when you win.

Maybe it is irrational, but that's my feeling for this year's edition. 

[BigV]

1 hour ago, Footsies said:

There just is something different about this FM. I don't know what other people's experience is like because everyone will be managing different teams etc, but this is not normal whatsoever.

The problem that I described at lenght is that there is not one, two, three specific problems/situations. At some point while you're playing, you just facepalm deeply for 20 seconds because the ME/game decided yet again to throw another absurdity at you that makes no sense. In fact my best advice to the devs would be, to just play the goddamn game. It's all there, I'm not hallucinating, sorry.

 

What I found most glaring, is how by using the very same save twice, and running it through thinking you might have learnt something from the first time, you understand how real it actually is, and no, quite frankly I'm not going to subject myself to a third round of a mediocre team torturing me because we've just scored 1 goal 15 minutes in, and then I have to clench my butt for 75 minutes while I get almost no highlights at all for the rest of the match (with EXTENDED HIGHLIGHTS!! These dry spells never happened with FM before).

 

I could mention so and so much more, like for example, I literally don't remember the last time when I was down by 1 goal with 20 minutes to go, I changed to attacking or very attacking, and then we scored, HOW DOES THAT NEVER HAPPEN!? LITERALLY NOT OOOOONNNNNCCCCCEEEEE. Do you get it!? Go look at real life statistics, those last 15-20 minutes are fruitful for goals, yet the ME often times acts like "nope, nothing to see here!" even on Extended Highlights? Surely I'm not the only guy with this problem? Does the ME have any awareness that we are effing Sporting and we're effing playing Portimonense?! I know their morale isn't the highest, but goddamn. Sure, these aren't things that happen *every* single match or whatever, but trust me, it happens way too often.

Which is precisely why I immediatly ditched my 4-2-3-1 Attacking and went on a 4-2-3-1 Positive on my second try, but guess what, none of it mattered. That was the exact same attacking tactic that I used in 2019 to demolish every single plebian midtable team of Portugal, now it just doesn't work.

 

Consider me deeply skeptical that this is a tactical problem, because quite frankly, in yet another anti-logical parade of absurdity, my best performing winger (in BOTH SAVES) happens to play on a winger role, not an Inside forward role (Jovane Cabral, on a AMR Winger Support role)... EVEN THOUGH I USE OVERLAPPING FULLBAKS who are both Wing-Back on Attack. You'd think IFs would play better there, but somehow, no. Not for me. So how about that for logic and "my tactics are simply wrong"? None of it makes sense. Up is down, down is up, 1+1 is 11. Meanwhile Vietto, IF (S) on the other side, 5 months of atrocious form, with a quality Wing Back behind him (Acuna).

 

Did I mention i even selected the highest prizes for winning the competition possible, just to try to motivate my players and give them that little bit of edge? I get it, it has virtually no influence (1%), but how many times do I have to prove to you that I'm doing it right, it's just the game that is wrong?

 

13 minutes ago, emil_sbn said:

You mentioned somtething earlier about that sporting lost several players, that means perhaps this year you cant play exactly the same way as before.

And as mentioned before in each new version of the ME so many things change, whats not working in this version may very well work wonders for you in the next ME.

create a post in the tactic forum and I´m sure me and many others can try help you with some tips.

 

 

I'm wiith @emil_sbn on this. I've been on the forums long enough to inspect the consistent negatives and positives. Giving a more detailed look at stats/games/analysis with a 2nd+ pair of eyes can do wonders. Herne and rashidi were my ballers and saved my save in fm19 and I thought that was the worst FM i've ever played and I still agree to it but some bits were my fault too regardless if I blamed the ME or my Tactics. 

ME isn't great and the general gauge in the forums seems to be a few specific areas that need tweaking to make it work. IMO ratings, some roles don't work as they should for countless reasons but im not in a state to provide evidence where i've more of less proved them wrong so all I can say is based on pure "speculation" and what point is that without evidence? none so I don't bother but if it's discussed with others proving my point then i'll put my point accross. 

Few bits with stats and the way they've recorded isn't specific enough or counted right, e.g. a few people I agree with for CCC's and types of balls they see counted as something else like through balls and long balls coinicide when they shouldn't. It's not a definite but I see it myself and some others do, DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT.

I understand your point and I actually do agree with you in some retrospects but it needs proof, it's the only way to prove what you're saying is true. 3 steps you should do:

Watch a match/matches in full/extended highlights- possibly in 2d -----> Analyse the data and stats -----> create a conclusion from the results as to whats wrong and why or vice versa.

Play the same games again with different roles (suitable towards player/game), Different TI's/PI's if any that you think should help or work (taking into opposition analysis consideration)---> analyse data and stats-----> conclude and compare. 

Post it in the forums on tactics or make a new thread somewhere where it's viable and people WILL look and help. 

[Mitja]

31 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

Almost any game regardless of quality will generate more than 10 shots on target per game. 

 

10 SOT per game is normal. Problem starts when you or any team generates 10 SOT and 20+ shots constantly. And of course when quality chances are missed one after another.  

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, Mitja said:

I believe even Svenc sees the pattern here.

I do see both. Have done so for a huge while.

1) Actual Managers manages spaces on the pitch, not the shot Count on the spread sheet. Any data Quotes is the result of their decisions. Pep doesn't set out to have the most shots in the league. He doesn't log on to Whoscored, watch some shot data, some highlights an conclude, yup, played Pretty well. This is simply a byproduct of him shifting defenses around. Which is also why a few of his shots aren't merely shots, but actually Quality (still Drops tons of Points despite 30 vs 5 shots this term in all of his Point drops, as an actual Manager, not an FM wannabe). It's equally not true that the best sides have the most shots. France at the WC, 11 shots average. Barcelona this term, 12 shots average. Atletico don't average a lot likewise. Neither do Juventus, even though they have the trigger happy CR7. Any of such data is simply the byproduct of the decisions / tactical styles. A lot of the world's best Teams happen to be attacking sides. Whereas your average FM'er tends to treat dominating these far too simple stats as the ultimate Goal to achieve. Football is not a  competition of who has the most shots on a spreadsheet, and will never be, but it is treated as such in-game. It's a game of scoring more Goals than the Opponent, which can be achieved in a Variety of ways.

2) I agree though: Shots (On Target) that have limited Chance of conversion are indeed too easy to come by as to FM though, in particular from the set piece. That is part of the Frustration, as the game statistically doesn't even make that simple a distinction. And it oft would tell loads more than any CCC. If you don't consistently create Openings from Play in some space, you will struggle to score, as even the best chances will be missed with some frequency (even once patched).

Edited December 9, 2019 by Svenc

[andu1]

Am i the only one who enjoys the latest ME , with all it's flaws of course? I lost the title in the last game because of 1v1 conversion but i made adjustments and we are storming the league now.  Yes there are issues, with 1v1 conversion but i think this is due to the fact that there are too many in the first place!

[Tiger666]

1 minute ago, andu1 said:

Am i the only one who enjoys the latest ME , with all it's flaws of course? I lost the title in the last game because of 1v1 conversion but i made adjustments and we are storming the league now.  Yes there are issues, with 1v1 conversion but i think this is due to the fact that there are too many in the first place!

It has potential yes but there are too many frustrations with it for me to enjoy at the moment. Set pieces are a mess with players ignoring instructions, defenders not reacting to long balls leading to far too many shots of which most are missed. With less chances and better finishing along with fixing the many bugs such as set pieces, it should be a good match engine.

[Sharkn20]

3 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Am i the only one who enjoys the latest ME , with all it's flaws of course? I lost the title in the last game because of 1v1 conversion but i made adjustments and we are storming the league now.  Yes there are issues, with 1v1 conversion but i think this is due to the fact that there are too many in the first place!

I like it this year, if they can fix how many 1vs1 happen and adjust the conversion rate accordingly to reward them and make Long Shots matter, as at present doesn't matter much as how many long shots from 5 or 7 LS rated players are scored, they will have a very robust ME.

[Mitja]

7 minutes ago, Svenc said:

It's equally not true that the best sides have the most shots. France at the WC, 11 shots average. Barcelona this term, 12 shots average. Atletico don't average a lot likewise. Any of such data is simply the byproduct of the decisions / tactical styles, whereas your average FM'er tends to treat these far too simple stats telling Nothing overly much as the ultimate Goal to achieve.

Of course not, quality of chances is. Until totals shots reduce and SOTs go up there will always be frustruation from player base. And rightly so. https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376073/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Liverpool-Everton !!!

Edited December 9, 2019 by Mitja

[Svenc]

9 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Of course not, quality of chances is. Until totals shots reduce and SOTs go up there will always be frustruation from player base. And rightly so. https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376073/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Liverpool-Everton !!!

Shots On Target that are Quality. As to Whoscored… 


https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1375942/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Tottenham
https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376038/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Wolverhampton-Wanderers

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1375969/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Norwich-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376045/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Newcastle-United-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376286/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Manchester-United

 

I could make the Argument that if it happens to one of the more reknown Managers in the world, it should happen to plenty of FMers far more frequently. I don't think they'd qualify as Pep's bluntly put, not even within the context of FM's game world. The AI SI has Always programmed has Always had an Edge over many, as it doesn't care About the shots. It cares About the spaces on the pitch and the Goals. (As said, I agree though that SOT in particular are too easy to come by, in part. from the set piece, which are SOT that typically are not often enough converted, e.g. headers under severe pressure).  

Edited December 9, 2019 by Svenc

[Johnny Ace]

We could do with a shot analysis like that in FM, I think it would really open some players' eyes  

[Mitja]

First game 10 sot, 2 goals

Second 2 sot, 0 goals

Third 8 sot, 2 goals

Fourth 9 sot, 2 goals

Fifth 5 sot, 1 goals

 

And this is worst case scenario when you try to walk the ball into goal.

Pattern is clear to me. They hit them on counters.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Mitja

[Mitja]

And here's against City sot/goals ratio.

2 : 2

2 : 2

3 : 3

3 : 2

7 : 2

This is all clear too, they need new keeper. 

[srvngrc]

3D graphics are not smooth. Please fix that issue. I already reported that at bugs forum. 

[hazzabish]

1 hour ago, emil_sbn said:

In my save its the other way around Im overly reliant on this guy with a very weak Bolton team and he doesnt even have that great stats...

I'd rate those as good stats but not unrealistic in the least. I wonder if it would be possible on this ME to get a Messi or Ronaldo scoring a goal a game...

[hazzabish]

45 minutes ago, BigV said:

 

I'm wiith @emil_sbn on this. I've been on the forums long enough to inspect the consistent negatives and positives. Giving a more detailed look at stats/games/analysis with a 2nd+ pair of eyes can do wonders. Herne and rashidi were my ballers and saved my save in fm19 and I thought that was the worst FM i've ever played and I still agree to it but some bits were my fault too regardless if I blamed the ME or my Tactics. 

ME isn't great and the general gauge in the forums seems to be a few specific areas that need tweaking to make it work. IMO ratings, some roles don't work as they should for countless reasons but im not in a state to provide evidence where i've more of less proved them wrong so all I can say is based on pure "speculation" and what point is that without evidence? none so I don't bother but if it's discussed with others proving my point then i'll put my point accross. 

Few bits with stats and the way they've recorded isn't specific enough or counted right, e.g. a few people I agree with for CCC's and types of balls they see counted as something else like through balls and long balls coinicide when they shouldn't. It's not a definite but I see it myself and some others do, DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT.

I understand your point and I actually do agree with you in some retrospects but it needs proof, it's the only way to prove what you're saying is true. 3 steps you should do:

Watch a match/matches in full/extended highlights- possibly in 2d -----> Analyse the data and stats -----> create a conclusion from the results as to whats wrong and why or vice versa.

Play the same games again with different roles (suitable towards player/game), Different TI's/PI's if any that you think should help or work (taking into opposition analysis consideration)---> analyse data and stats-----> conclude and compare. 

Post it in the forums on tactics or make a new thread somewhere where it's viable and people WILL look and help. 

The thing is, it's all well doing all this analysis and data but I think it feels to many of us just...not right. It's hard to put a finger on it sometimes (besides the obvious things), but there's just something off about it this year.

[Vertical Tiki-Taka]

I feel i need to post my opinions of this current version of the ME, after a full season in the Bundesliga, i have to say SI this is by far ONE of the worst version of the ME i can remember in the series of the game. Tactics which are focused on central play & playing through balls forward through defences are rendered useless. The amount of one on one chances missed for both myself & the AI is absolutely criminal to say the least. Top top strikers missing countless one on one chances is just not realistic for me and judging by other feedback in this post, the vast majority feel the same way.

Surely you SI have to acknowledge there is an issue here? 

I have had to scrap my vision of playing narrow & centrally just to make the game & ME playable for me and this is simply not on I'm afraid. Very disappointing indeed. If improvements are not made in future patches to rectify this i feel this may be my last purchase unfortunately, It seems this game has become too complex for your team to execute effectively IMO.

Such a shame SI, such a shame.

 

[StevehFC]

1 hour ago, upthetoon said:

This is spot on. There's way too many shots in the game. 

Almost any game regardless of quality will generate more than 10 shots on target per game. 

It needs looking at. 

In my save. I now ignore the match stats as long as i'm winning. 

But let's say if i have around 25 shots with 7 on target and Ai has one shot and scores with that one shot. I'll reload the game and accept the 2nd result regardless what happens. 

[themadsheep2001]

43 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

We could do with a shot analysis like that in FM, I think it would really open some players' eyes  

Yeah, theres loads of good stats in FM, but I'd change what the analysis shows

[emil_sbn]

24 minutes ago, hazzabish said:

I'd rate those as good stats but not unrealistic in the least. I wonder if it would be possible on this ME to get a Messi or Ronaldo scoring a goal a game...

.

Oh excuse my english meant good attributes not stats finishing 12 and composure 9 is below par in championship I believe but somehow he has managed to  become top scorer in the league 2 seasons in a row!

First time in fm history for me I get the pressing forward working so pretty happy about that =)

[Mitja]

17 minutes ago, Vertical Tiki-Taka said:

The amount of one on one chances missed for both myself & the AI is absolutely criminal to say the least. Top top strikers missing countless one on one chances is just not realistic for me and judging by other feedback in this post, the vast majority feel the same way.

Not all 1on1's are same, imagine scorelines if those were scored more regulary. 

[ImDaWeasel]

1 minute ago, Mitja said:

Not all 1on1's are same, imagine scorelines if those were scored more regulary. 

The issue is both strikers missing the one on one chances and that these chances are being shown on the ME far too consistently per match. Reduce the chances of one on ones happening and slightly increase the success rate and everyone will be happier.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, ImDaWeasel said:

The issue is both strikers missing the one on one chances and that these chances are being shown on the ME far too consistently per match. Reduce the chances of one on ones happening and slightly increase the success rate and everyone will be happier.

Not sure about the latter so much, some of the more blatant ones would it need though, but would certainly agree there are too many 1-1s. That would be my primary fix, if there was only one thing they dealt with

[Mitja]

22 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

The issue is both strikers missing the one on one chances and that these chances are being shown on the ME far too consistently per match. Reduce the chances of one on ones happening and slightly increase the success rate and everyone will be happier.

But we still don't know how many 1on1's are there in football match per avarage. 0,5, 1, 2, 3?

[themadsheep2001]

42 minutes ago, Mitja said:

But we still don't know how many 1on1's are there in football match per avarage. 0,5, 1, 2, 3?

Last season in the Premier league there were a total of 1143 big chances created, at an average of 3 a game.

221 were converted,  an average of 0.58 a game. 

Average big chance conversion rate: 19%

[Sharkn20]

3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Last season in the Premier league there were a total of 1143 big chances created, at an average of 3 a game.

221 were converted,  an average of 0.58 a game. 

Average big chance conversion rate: 19%

This is quite a number... SI could come up with this kind of stats to "defend" themselves, and if this is the number of CCC that we are playing with, they should just say it.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Sharkn20

[Mitja]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Last season in the Premier league there were a total of 1143 big chances created, at an average of 3 a game.

221 were converted,  an average of 0.58 a game. 

Yeah three per game. It's still a little tricky because we don't know what ''big chance'' includes, but quality 1on1 is there I'm sure. 

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Yeah three per game. It's still a little tricky because we don't know what ''big chance'' includes, but quality 1on1 is there I'm sure. 

Their data is collected from Opta, so it would be Opta's definition:

 

Quote

Big Chances
A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score, usually in a one on one scenario or from very close range when the ball has a clear path to goal and there is low to moderate pressure on the shooter. Penalties are always considered big chances.

The question is whether SI's definition fits that. Personally I would say no

[Svenc]

37 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Average big chance conversion rate: 19%

This alone would suggest that it'd be interestingly a more strict stat what SI have on offer. Seasonal CCC conversion can be way above 50% in FM.  That doesn't mean it's easier to score, it's a Definition Thing. So not very much comparable.  There's still stuff flagged as CCC that really shouldn't. Then again, FM oft doesn't include bonafide cut backs as CCCs, which in-game typically are (and should be) easier to convert than 1vs1. They're 1vs0.5s, as they have typically taken the keeper half out of the Picture already. Bottom line: There are bad stats, there are worse stats ... and then there are the SI CCCs. (Still don't know why they don't actually take the actual ME calculations as a baseline, rather than arguing over whether a Header should ever be counted as a CCC etc. But then they may fear that would likely give too much away).

Edited December 9, 2019 by Svenc

[Neil Brock]

Hotfix to address some stability issues as shown here - https://community.sigames.com/topic/507465-football-manager-2020-2021-hotfix-out-now/

[Johnny Ace]

Just have away with CCC's & include Big Chances instead I say 

[thepolishkiller]

I was away form the franchise for a while and as far as I recall this wasn't FM20 specific, but the loading bars are very confusing. Just wondering if there's a reason for that, because it's not fun seeing a bar load up slowly to 30% and then have it go to 100% in a split second.

[BigV]

What exactly is wrong with the CCC's though, like I can see it being a hard thing to define but at the same time long balls over the top quite far out and them shooting= a CCC, what are the specifics that @Svenc and others feel that makes it unreliable to what it should be?