The 4231 Explained

[Cleon]

This is taken from my blog https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/

 

When I normally write an article it’s normally based on something from my own save game, I don’t really do request for articles as such. But for the last few years I’ve been asked quite regularly when I would be writing about the 4-2-3-1 and the answer as always been never. The reason for this was I don’t really use the formation, I find four defender formations boring. I’m more of a three at the back and then experiment with the players in front kind of guy. Using four defenders you don’t really have many options you can use, so that’s always been my preferred method of play.

This year though I thought I’d bite the bullet and write about the 4231 to give people a better insight into how I’d use it. The only downside is I’ll be writing about the 4-2-3-1 and explain why this is my preferred option throughout the article. So over the next few weeks I will hopefully have this series about the 4-2-3-1 finished :). But for now, here is the introduction to get familiar with what I'll be doing and why

 

The 4-2-3-1 formation is a very popular formation, however on Football Manager, it’s always been one that a lot of users struggle to get working. There are a few reasons why users struggle to implement the system into the game. A few of those reasons are;

• A 4-2-3-1 as we see it in Football Manager isn’t the actual shape we see real life teams line up as.
• Top heavy formations are hard to balance out and require a different type of thinking compared to the less top heavy formations.
• The defensive/central midfielder combo confuse people, they don’t understand how important and vital these players are.

The Shape

I mentioned this further up, but one of the reasons I believe people struggle is due to the shape they use. Logically you’d think the 4-2-3-1 that we see in FM would be a replica of what we see used in real football. But it’s not because on FM the formation is very top heavy and starts off this way. In real life the formation is deeper. So this is what we see on FM;

As we can see (ignore the roles and duties they’re not important) the formation is really top heavy naturally. Then when we add roles, duties and the mentality the team will use then it changes even more.If you use an attack duty then the player is likely to be pushed higher and the same when you use a high mentality. If you was to use support roles and a lower mentality then you can get the players deeper but they’ll still be high due to the natural shape.

If you wanted to replicate a real life 4-2-3-1 into Football Manager then I’d recommend this shape instead;

This is a better version due to the players starting lower down the pitch, this means you can replicate the defensive aspects much better than you can compared to the first image I posted. However you lose nothing in the attacking shape because you can push players as high as you want and can replicate any of the roles you can in the normal shape. Another positive about this shape is if you used an aggressive mentality then the player shouldn’t be as isolated as they can be in the normal 4-2-3-1 shape.

I understand that people don’t want to play this way on Football Manager even though it's a better replication and more accurate real life comparison. You can also use the 4-1-2-2-1 shape to give a similar effect with the right use of roles. But for this article I’m going with the deep 4-2-3-1 which looks like this;

The main reason for preferring the deep version with two defensive midfielders over the two central midfielder version is actually simple, it’s not something that requires lots of explaining. It’s due to the behaviour of the defensive midfielders, you can make them act like normal midfielders however you can’t really make central midfielders act like true defensive midfielders. This means defensively I can replicate the defensive shape and behaviours I need more accurate while still having the same attacking intent when in possession and have them act like normal midfielders. This particular shape offers the best of both worlds.

Another one of the reasons why this shape is also hard to create on Football Manager is the defensive shape. Most real life versions of this tactic tend to defend in a 4-5-1 or a 4-4-1-1 shape for most parts. Now depending on which roles and duties you’ve used this becomes harder to replicate on Football Manager.

Top Heavy Formations

One of the biggest obstacles people have with top heavy shapes is they don’t know how to firstly create space and movement and secondly don’t know how to use it when they have created it. Unlike deeper formations, it’s easy to have your front four isolated from the rest of the team when using this shape especially on higher mentality structures. When you use attacking duties and high mentalites you push the players even further forward, which isn’t always a good thing. If players are too high how can you create space let alone use it?

Not only that but it also requires the deeper players to supply them the ball constantly because they’ll be too high and attacking to be involved in most build up plays. When this happens it puts a lot of pressure on the full backs and the central midfielders and requires them to work even harder than normal while still carrying out their own duties. Basically you split your team into two different bands rather than a well oiled cohesive unit playing this way. This brings lots of issues, which I’ll be talking about in great depth a little further in the article.

Depending on how the opposition play, top heavy formations can naturally struggle to find space in behind the opposition. Especially if the opposition is sat deep and defending, then it gets harder to break these teams down. All the space that exists naturally is actually in front of the defensive line not behind. This means the role and duties you use here are vital in creating the space. Somehow you have to balance these roles out to offer the kind of movement you need.

Another important factor in this is the team shape you use. On the more fluid end of the scale players will be closer together and this again takes away space compared to the lower end team shapes. So if space is an issue then what kind of team shape you use will be vital. In fact all of the issues I’ve mentioned so far could mean you are restricted to long-shots without creating any real quality chances, at least not consistently.

Don’t worry though, I will be covering all of these issues a little later and discussing how we can stop it from happening and how to fix it, if you currently suffer with any of these issues.

The Central Defensive or Midfield Players

These two players whichever way you utilise them, are vital to how the formation functions as a whole. Many people think when they use a 4-2-3-1 that the two central midfielders need to be aggressive and support attacks so tend to set them up to get further forward. This is great but brings implications. One is that again it asks players to move into already crowded space assuming the opposition is defend deep. Secondly it leaves you exposed when the ball is turned over because the player will have to get back into his defensive position. Considering you only have two players centrally who are expected to cover the entire midfield then it a major issue if one is caught out of position or can’t recover in time.

It leaves you badly exposed and you get run ragged. So ideally because the players for this position need to be workhorses even if you want them to support attacks. It’s a demanding role but often this is overlooked. You shouldn’t need them to go forward and get into the box or be very deep in the final third. That’s not to say they can’t be used like that but I’d have to question why you’d set up like that and wonder what the other four front players were doing? They can support and aid attacks from deeper positions, four players should be more than enough to break down any side or to create that important space and movement. Balance is key to everything and that’s what makes a good tactic into an excellent one, it’s a fine line.

Now we’ve got some of the common issues and mistakes out of the way, it's important we understand how and why the shape we use actually works. You need to understand the basics to know if it's working or not. So what does the 4-2-3-1 offer.

Strengths

The strengths of the formation without a doubt is the flexibility when attacking and that you have three attacking midfielders positioned high up the pitch with a striker. You can make the formation shape into various different shapes with clever use of the roles and duties. In a proper balanced set up the central midfielders provide the needed cover to allow the forward four to be more expressive. It’s also hard for you to be overrun in the midfield area with essentially five players across the midfield.

Another strength is how you utilise the ball. Generally speaking it ulises possession more effectively than a 4-1-2-2-1 which is more focused on retaining possession. So having four players advanced up the pitch allows the ball to be used much quickly. With the two deep central players supporting behind you can distribute the ball more effective due to not having to pass in straight lines and creating lots of different triangular passing options. This is where the 4-2-3-1 excels for me.

Weaknesses

Due to the high positions of the three attacking midfielders, tiredness can be a major factor. In Football Manager terms the issue here might not be tiredness, it might be that those three players don’t track back further enough in their own half. In real life tiredness is a factor because they’re expected to be almost like box to box players, so it’s a lot of physical exertion. This can also make it hard to defend against quick counter attacks depending on how high your players are when the ball is lost. A simple ball over the top or across the midfield can potentially take up to six of your players out in one go, depending on the positioning of the central two players.

Another known on effect of having three attacking midfielders high up the pitch is opposition wingers. They can harass your full backs and create 1v1’s or 2v1’s if you don’t get your own wide players tracking back enough. It’s quite demanding to expect players to be really advanced yet deep in defensive transitions.

That’s why the 4-2-3-1 is really tricky to set up on Football Manager. I’ll split this into a series of articles, if not it’ll be a 15k word essay and I don’t want to bore you all to death (although I likely do that anyway).In the next part of the series we will look at the 4-2-3-1 I’ll be using and discuss the roles and duties and how I imagine it will all work and link together.

The System

Now that I’ve covered the basics, it’s time to explore the practical side of things and how to implement our ideas into the game. So this is the shape with the roles and duties I’m using;

It’s really just a standard deep 4-2-3-1 formation but now I’m going to explain how all the roles link together and work to create the overall style I’m creating. I’ll also go into detail about why I chose a specific option over the others available to give you a real insight into how it should work.This will happen in the analysis section of the article.

I probably should also point out that the roles might not be set in stone and can change depending on what I see happening in the analysis parts. The tactic so far hasn’t been used and is just the base I’ll start with before making any changes. But below I want to focus briefly on why I choose these settings and explain how I believe it’ll function, before comparing whether my ideas on paper are being translated into the game properly. Then at a later stage in the article some of this might change but then again it might not when we start the actual analysis. At the minute everything is still is the idea stages. Either way I’ll document any changes and discuss why in the analysis parts should I have to make any.

Mentality

Mentality is probably the biggest factor for me when creating a tactic, it’s the most important part of the puzzle. A lot of people want to create a style of play, let's say for example they want to play attacking football. Automatically people think that the attacking strategy is the best one and will give them everything they need. But this isn’t entirely true as I’ve pointed out before with some of the other articles I did. You can be just as attacking on a lower mentality scale than you can on a higher one.

Due to the shape being top heavy I’m not a fan of playing on a higher mentality. I’m not saying higher mentalities don’t work but for me, my personal preference is to create a base formation that works in majority of scenarios I’m likely to face. That way they need less micromanaging and less changes during a game. If I was to use a more attacking mentality then I’m pretty certain I’d end up making changes more frequently in game compared to what I will using a standard one. Especially if faced with sides who sit deep.

I’ll still have to make changes at times and in certain circumstances I might need a higher mentality, although based on the roles I’m using maybe not. Either way, I feel I can create all the space and movement needed on a standard setting. In the analysis sections a little later on you might be surprised to see the actual differences and benefits I get from playing on standard compared to control or attacking mentality.

Team Shape

This is another tricky one that people like to spend hours agonising over and giving it a greater influence than really needs to be. I’m not saying it isn’t important because it can be but I don’t believe it to be as important as is made out. It’s just one piece of the puzzle not the entire puzzle.

For me team shape comes down to two things;

• The more structured you go the less compact you’ll be. The more fluid you go the more compact you’ll be.
• All the base roles you use will get slightly more creative freedom than normal if you use a fluid team shape compared to a more structured one.

It can be slightly more complicated than that but for most parts I like to keep it in simple basic form rather than complicating something that doesn’t require it being complicated. If you’re unsure on what to select then always go with flexible as you can’t go wrong, flexible is basically the neutral setting you see. I like to use flexible a lot unless I want to create a specific style of play that requires players to be closer together then I’d use a more fluid approach.

There are lots of articles that already cover team shape in great detail though so I’d have a quick look for them if you want to learn the inner workings of the setting. But I honestly believe it’s not needed. A little further in the article you’ll see why flexible is the best base for me and how it works compared to a more structured or fluid shape.

Team Instructions

These are used to refine and create the style I’m going for which is, to create a build from the back strategy that is focused on being a bit aggressive when we don’t have the ball, but not overly aggressive. It’s important that I build out from the back because I’m using two defensive midfielders, so moving the ball forward quickly by the keeper wouldn’t really benefit me as those deeper players wouldn’t be involved. That’s why we play out from the back.

Player Roles and Duties

In the whole of the tactic making process, the roles and duties you used are what will make you function a certain way. These are what determine what you’ll do during a game, all the other settings are just things that alter the behaviour slightly. But ultimately any style you want to create must use roles and duties that allow so.

Gk -  His job is to save shots and distribute the ball of the defenders. Simple I know, but that’s basically it.

Right Wing Back - In defence he’s expected to pick up the oppositions wide players and hopefully reduce the amount of crosses we see the opposition doing. In attack he is expected to provide support and overlaps for the winger on the same side. He is also expected to get to the byline at times and provide with.

Left Wing Back - Almost identical to above but due to the support duty will be more of a deeper option when attacking and either create stuff deeper or be a late option getting into the final third areas. I wanted to create variety and because I have one on an attack duty already then I wanted to create a staggered effect and have someone who does all the same things but from a deeper area of the pitch. In defensive situations he should provide everything the right sided player does.

Central Defenders - Pretty simple really, just mark strikers, attacking midfielders, reduce shots we are likely to have against us. Win tackles and be strong in the air. In attacking situations they should look to distribute the ball to the wide players or the defensive midfielders. Nothing too fancy, just basic run of the mill stuff.

Defensive Midfielder - If any role changes I can see it being this one. I’m not sure if an anchorman would be better here or if that would make me too deep at times. It’s something I’ll find out during the analysis I guess. However the main idea is that the defensive midfielder will provide a screen for the central defenders and look to win the ball back and cut off passing lane for the opposition. When attacking I don’t expect him to offer much at all apart from being a deep passing option and maybe someone who recycles possession naturally rather than making him a playmaker and trying to force it. His only real responsibility is to provide cover.

Segundo Volante - Without a doubt this is my favourite role on Football Manager ever. I expect him to act like a normal defensive midfielder when not in possession. But when we are in possession this is where he should shine because he is the heartbeat of the side. I want him to bring the ball forward and be the complete midfielder than I need. I also expect him to get his fair share of goals and assists. The whole build from the back approach relies on him and the wingbacks bringing the ball forward. While also providing running from deep and offering support to the advanced players

Winger - Defensively he should track back and try and cut out overlaps from the opposition or stop them from creating a 2v1 situation against my wingback. In attack he is expected to link up with the wingback and allow him to overlap naturally. He is also to provide crosses from deep and the byline into the box. On top of this he is the main player along with the wingbacks to create width.

Attacking Midfielder - I want him to pressure the defence and midfielders when we don’t have possession and along with the striker, defend from the front. On the attacking side of things his main responsibilities will be passing, supporting the striker and making later runs into the box. I didn’t want a playmaker here as I want all play to feel natural and not forced, which using a playmaker does at times. It makes things seem forced but I didn’t want him to attract the ball more than he has to, as that would take away from the winger and inside forward’s game.

Inside Forward - I don’t expect him to do much defensively because he is too high up the pitch and I want him to be the main source of goals. This means the position he will take up makes it harder for him to fall back to the defensive position you would expect him to take up. When we attack I want him to drift inside and get into space and gaps created by the attacking midfielder, striker and possible segundo volante too. I also expect those three players to pass to him frequently so he can score those goals I want him to score. How this role functions and is utlised is heavily based on how the players around him perform. Supply is the most important thing here.

Deep-lying Forward - While he should score goals for me, that is only his secondary job. His main responsibility is to occupy the opposition's defenders and creating space by pulling them out of position. This will hopefully create space that will be used by the movement created from the attacking midfielders behaviour and the inside forward.. Those are the two players who should be looking to move into any space created by the forward. He should also be a passing outlet too and the one who makes things happen in the final third.

So that is how I imagine it will all play out, whether it does or not though is something different entirely. That is why in the next section we will start with the analysis.

[Cleon]

The System

Now that I’ve covered the basics, it’s time to explore the practical side of things and how to implement our ideas into the game. So this is the shape with the roles and duties I’m using;

It’s really just a standard deep 4-2-3-1 formation but now I’m going to explain how all the roles link together and work to create the overall style I’m creating. I’ll also go into detail about why I chose a specific option over the others available to give you a real insight into how it should work.This will happen in the analysis section of the article.

I probably should also point out that the roles might not be set in stone and can change depending on what I see happening in the analysis parts. The tactic so far hasn’t been used and is just the base I’ll start with before making any changes. But below I want to focus briefly on why I choose these settings and explain how I believe it’ll function, before comparing whether my ideas on paper are being translated into the game properly. Then at a later stage in the article some of this might change but then again it might not when we start the actual analysis. At the minute everything is still is the idea stages. Either way I’ll document any changes and discuss why in the analysis parts should I have to make any.

Mentality

Mentality is probably the biggest factor for me when creating a tactic, it’s the most important part of the puzzle. A lot of people want to create a style of play, let’s say for example they want to play attacking football. Automatically people think that the attacking strategy is the best one and will give them everything they need. But this isn’t entirely true as I’ve pointed out before with some of the other articles I did. You can be just as attacking on a lower mentality scale than you can on a higher one.

Due to the shape being top heavy I’m not a fan of playing on a higher mentality. I’m not saying higher mentalities don’t work but for me, my personal preference is to create a base formation that works in majority of scenarios I’m likely to face. That way they need less micromanaging and less changes during a game. If I was to use a more attacking mentality then I’m pretty certain I’d end up making changes more frequently in game compared to what I will using a standard one. Especially if faced with sides who sit deep.

I’ll still have to make changes at times and in certain circumstances I might need a higher mentality, although based on the roles I’m using maybe not. Either way, I feel I can create all the space and movement needed on a standard setting. In the analysis sections a little later on you might be surprised to see the actual differences and benefits I get from playing on standard compared to control or attacking mentality.

Team Shape

This is another tricky one that people like to spend hours agonising over and giving it a greater influence than really needs to be. I’m not saying it isn’t important because it can be but I don’t believe it to be as important as is made out. It’s just one piece of the puzzle not the entire puzzle.

For me team shape comes down to two things;

• The more structured you go the less compact you’ll be. The more fluid you go the more compact you’ll be.
• All the base roles you use will get slightly more creative freedom than normal if you use a fluid team shape compared to a more structured one.

It can be slightly more complicated than that but for most parts I like to keep it in simple basic form rather than complicating something that doesn’t require it being complicated. If you’re unsure on what to select then always go with flexible as you can’t go wrong, flexible is basically the neutral setting you see. I like to use flexible a lot unless I want to create a specific style of play that requires players to be closer together then I’d use a more fluid approach.

There are lots of articles that already cover team shape in great detail though so I’d have a quick look for them if you want to learn the inner workings of the setting. But I honestly believe it’s not needed. A little further in the article you’ll see why flexible is the best base for me and how it works compared to a more structured or fluid shape.

Team Instructions

These are used to refine and create the style I’m going for which is, to create a build from the back strategy that is focused on being a bit aggressive when we don’t have the ball, but not overly aggressive. It’s important that I build out from the back because I’m using two defensive midfielders, so moving the ball forward quickly by the keeper wouldn’t really benefit me as those deeper players wouldn’t be involved. That’s why we play out from the back.

Player Roles and Duties

In the whole of the tactic making process, the roles and duties you used are what will make you function a certain way. These are what determine what you’ll do during a game, all the other settings are just things that alter the behaviour slightly. But ultimately any style you want to create must use roles and duties that allow so.

Gk –  His job is to save shots and distribute the ball of the defenders. Simple I know, but that’s basically it.

Right Wing Back – In defence he’s expected to pick up the oppositions wide players and hopefully reduce the amount of crosses we see the opposition doing. In attack he is expected to provide support and overlaps for the winger on the same side. He is also expected to get to the byline at times and provide with.

Left Wing Back – Almost identical to above but due to the support duty will be more of a deeper option when attacking and either create stuff deeper or be a late option getting into the final third areas. I wanted to create variety and because I have one on an attack duty already then I wanted to create a staggered effect and have someone who does all the same things but from a deeper area of the pitch. In defensive situations he should provide everything the right sided player does.

Central Defenders – Pretty simple really, just mark strikers, attacking midfielders, reduce shots we are likely to have against us. Win tackles and be strong in the air. In attacking situations they should look to distribute the ball to the wide players or the defensive midfielders. Nothing too fancy, just basic run of the mill stuff.

Defensive Midfielder – If any role changes I can see it being this one. I’m not sure if an anchorman would be better here or if that would make me too deep at times. It’s something I’ll find out during the analysis I guess. However the main idea is that the defensive midfielder will provide a screen for the central defenders and look to win the ball back and cut off passing lane for the opposition. When attacking I don’t expect him to offer much at all apart from being a deep passing option and maybe someone who recycles possession naturally rather than making him a playmaker and trying to force it. His only real responsibility is to provide cover.

Segundo Volante – Without a doubt this is my favourite role on Football Manager ever. I expect him to act like a normal defensive midfielder when not in possession. But when we are in possession this is where he should shine because he is the heartbeat of the side. I want him to bring the ball forward and be the complete midfielder than I need. I also expect him to get his fair share of goals and assists. The whole build from the back approach relies on him and the wingbacks bringing the ball forward. While also providing running from deep and offering support to the advanced players

Winger – Defensively he should track back and try and cut out overlaps from the opposition or stop them from creating a 2v1 situation against my wingback. In attack he is expected to link up with the wingback and allow him to overlap naturally. He is also to provide crosses from deep and the byline into the box. On top of this he is the main player along with the wingbacks to create width.

Attacking Midfielder – I want him to pressure the defence and midfielders when we don’t have possession and along with the striker, defend from the front. On the attacking side of things his main responsibilities will be passing, supporting the striker and making later runs into the box. I didn’t want a playmaker here as I want all play to feel natural and not forced, which using a playmaker does at times. It makes things seem forced but I didn’t want him to attract the ball more than he has to, as that would take away from the winger and inside forward’s game.

Inside Forward – I don’t expect him to do much defensively because he is too high up the pitch and I want him to be the main source of goals. This means the position he will take up makes it harder for him to fall back to the defensive position you would expect him to take up. When we attack I want him to drift inside and get into space and gaps created by the attacking midfielder, striker and possible segundo volante too. I also expect those three players to pass to him frequently so he can score those goals I want him to score. How this role functions and is utlised is heavily based on how the players around him perform. Supply is the most important thing here.

Deep-lying Forward – While he should score goals for me, that is only his secondary job. His main responsibility is to occupy the opposition’s defenders and creating space by pulling them out of position. This will hopefully create space that will be used by the movement created from the attacking midfielders behaviour and the inside forward.. Those are the two players who should be looking to move into any space created by the forward. He should also be a passing outlet too and the one who makes things happen in the final third.

So that is how I imagine it will all play out, whether it does or not though is something different entirely. That is why in the next section we will start with the analysis.

[Cleon]

In the first part of the series we discussed the system we’d be using and I spoke about how I thought the roles would all link together and play. So now I need to explore and see if this is the case and see if I am suffering any of the issues I mentioned in the opening article. For this part I’m just going to dive straight into a bit of tactical analysis to see if my ideas are working or not.

In case you’ve forgot the shape and settings I’m using, or to make it more accessible without searching the older articles, here it is;

If you've not read the first part yet you can find the link for it here; Part One

You can see here that the attacking central midfielder comes quite deep and the winger is positioned deep as well. This is down to both those roles being support ones and using a standard mentality structure. However if you notice the wide players, if they were to receive the ball now then they’d be in a good position to attack. But they only have the deep-lying forward to aim for. Everyone else would be playing catch up. Would this be an issue? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how quickly the attacking midfielder and Segundo Volante can get up alongside and offer support. So we need to see the move played out further.

A few seconds later in the move we have the wingback going on the outside of the winger, while the winger cuts inside. It’s worth pointing out that my winger Copete has the moves into channel PPM. So at times he cuts inside ever so slightly when he has the ball and isn’t as wide as he is sometimes. If you look at his positioning while he has possession of the ball, you can see he has plenty of space and time. You can also see the opposition reacting already with three players moving to cover the danger.

By them doing this, it opens up space for my Segundo Volante to run into. When the opposition player (2) shift across then the Segundo Volante has free clear space to run into and exploit. If this happens then a simple ball from Copete and the play switches from the right hand side of the pitch to the central left areas. Which would then bring the deep-lying forward and the inside forward into play. And that is without taking into consideration of what the attacking midfielder will be doing.

Or if Copete wanted he could feed the wingback in behind him. So options are a plenty here and it's still early stages in-game itself. The signs so far look good but because the game is still in the early stages it doesn’t mean this is a frequent occurrence. For that, we need to analyse the frequency of this happening.

Copete did switch the play and passed the ball to the Segundo Volante which opened up the pitch. Look at how clustered the opposition have become in the central areas due to the quick change of play. Stretching the opposition is always good. It also means that my inside forward has space and time. Seconds later he passes the ball to the striker who was dispossessed but I like the movement throughout this move. It shows we are creating space and using it wisely so far.

One thing that could be problematic though is my attacking midfielder, he is really deep during the whole move. Him being deep isn’t an actual issue as such, it’s more the fact he hasn’t gone further forward and offered support to the striker. This is likely down to the quick switch of play from one side to another. As well as catching the opposition out of sync, your own players can also miss the phase of play. Now I’ve noted it though I can check to see how often it's happening as it could be an issue or it might be nothing. However we need to acknowledge it could be problematic.

This is a completely different move, this time my wingback is the one starting the attack. The only real passing outlet he has here is the winger. However if the wingers gets the ball then he will be surrounded by the three players I’ve marked out on the screenshot. This actually isn’t a bad thing though, well it is for the winger but for the attacking midfielder and the Segundo Volante this is really good. A huge amount of space is about to appear around the attacking midfielder.

We again see the winger forced inside here because he is marked two against one should he try beating his original marker. But by coming inside he makes the opposition player shift across to deal with the threat, but all this does is give Lucas Lima acres of free space to play in. The inside forward is already anticipating what will happen and looking to make an early run due to being unmarked. When Lucas Lima gets the ball he then has three options he could do with the ball.

1. He can drive forward with the ball at his feet.
2. Pass is to the Segundo Volante who is unmarked and has lots of space and time.
3. He can try the more direct/long risky option and try to play the inside forward in early.

Either way we have options in the side and not only that, but we are creating a **** ton of space for players to run into.

In this example I know the wingback started the move but I don’t feel he is pushing on enough in these early stages. It’s something I need to keep an eye on in the next few games. In this game my winger being forced inside isn’t a hindrance and is actually helping. It’s worth noting that sometimes having a player marked so closely and tightly isn’t always a bad thing. You can see the options I am creating and how the players are using this to their advantage. If the player wasn’t marked and went down the wings then I might have less initial options to start with.

I’ve seen the player go down the wings a few times already in this game so he is doing what I’m expecting and is not a cause for concern. If he was always coming inside even when he wasn’t forced to do so, then I’d look at the why and try to correct the situation.

My winger Copete picks the ball up deep in our own half this time. But it’s becoming pretty clear how important my attacking midfielder is to making the side function. He’s basically a natural playmaker with how he is involved in play. Everything that is happening in the side is mainly going through him. In this screenshot the wingback is actually giving us width and making a surging run to get beyond the winger.

When Lucas Lima the attacking midfielder receives the ball, he then has options yet again. Copete will move forward and offer support, he also has the wingback making the run down the wing. There is also the Segundo Volante offering the deep option and is totally unmarked as he would be, due to being so deep and away from play to begin with. This actually doesn’t mean he is uninvolved though as you’ll see next.

This is the same move as above just a little later in the move that’s all. Lucas Lima passed the ball to the Segundo Volante who hits it first time into the channels and my wingback gets on the end of it. It’s another quick switch of play which immediately puts us on the front foot.

We can see that its four versus three here giving us the advantage. The wingback, Ferraz, receives the ball then drives forward and puts a cross into the box. It goes across the goal but unfortunately no-one gets on the end of it, on this occasion. But it’s all good as its showing we attack in numbers when the opportunity arises. Also in the example the Segundo Volante and attacking midfielder aren’t really involved in the next phase of play. Although both were vital in the early stages.

I don’t always need every player involved in every single aspect of play, especially with moves like this. It also means if I had lost the ball here, I had sufficient cover in the midfield still and didn’t overcommit and leave myself open for counter attack. Having five or even six players forward at one given time, distorts the balance you have in the side and can be very risky. On some occasions it might be needed but not in this instance.

It’s one of the reasons why creating a balanced tactic is vital for consistency. Not only that but you want a variety of ways to attack so your play isn’t predictable.

I don’t want to fill the article with analysis overload and focus on too many areas at once as I don’t think that is helpful at all. But so far, considering this is the first game I’ve played I’ve seen enough positives to think everything will work as I thought it would. However remember this was just one game and in the next one, it might play completely different to what it did in this game.

While I did spot a couple of issues with the attacking midfielder being very deep at times and the wingback possibly not being attacking enough, I’ll be making no changes for the next game. For those of you who have followed my stuff for a while, you’ll know that I only tend to make any changes based on a bigger sample size. Normally as a rule that is three games as it starts to give you an idea of how the system works and what issues you have. So I’ll be looking for issues with the wingback and the attacking midfielder during these next two games.

However while the attacking midfielder was deep, which is what I half expected with the role and duty he has, plus the mentality I use. Everything the side did went through him and he was pivotal in everything we did. So I don’t believe him being deep will be a major issue going forward. But it might mean I need to rethink or slightly adjust if I feel I don’t have enough immediate support in the central areas. But we will have to see how the next few games go.

In the next article I’m unsure whether to analyse game two and three or jump straight to an article that shows how the players behave different on a higher mentality  from a positional sense, and why I prefer the deeper versions of the tactic which I mentioned in the earlier posts. This would allow me to compare the defensive shapes and the attacking ones and show you exactly why one is better than the other for both phases of play.

So let me know below which article you’d like to see next.

[Cleon]

In this article I carry on the 4-2-3-1 deep discussion. This time with a focus on the standard mentality and the attacking mentality settings. Hopefully it will highlight some of the differences between the two settings and explain a little bit about how they differ and the pros and cons of both methods. For the basis of this thread, I played the same team with two different mentality structures. I used attacking mentality and the standard mentality to highlight the differences. These are the only two I did as I didn’t have time to do more. However you’ll get the idea and the point I am making hopefully. So let’s just dive straight into it.

Now these average position images might confuse people at first and you’ll think I’ve got them the wrong way around.

That is the attacking average position map which looks deeper than you might imagine. There is a reason for this and we will come around to that a bit later in the analysis.

Believe it or not this is actually the average positions for the players in the standard mentality structure that I am using. Yet it’s more attacking on face value and players are positioned a lot differently compared to the first screenshot I posted. A lot of the players are more attacking. The average positions are interesting in both screenshots.

You’d have expected the attacking mentality to be a lot more aggressive with the average positions for when they had the ball (the purple icon with the number in it). Yet it’s actually the standard mentality screenshot which looks more aggressive. In the first image you can see even the defence is deeper when out of possession too.

There are a number of reasons why it could be like this.

The attacking mentality is making defenders hit the ball earlier than normal as they look to hit the front players a lot quickly than you’d see in the standard mentality. This is entirely plausible. In the standard mentality system players likely have more time and spend longer on the ball, meaning they move up-field much more because they aren’t looking to rush play.

In the standard system players seem to be more spread out, especially in the central areas. One of the reasons behind this is likely the initial space a player has. In the standard one the space is likely in front of the players, meaning they have time to work the ball and play with it at their feet. In the more attacking system, that space likely doesn’t exist due to the aggressive nature. The higher mentality should on paper push them further forward but as you can see in the images, this isn’t happening. This suggest the space isn’t there and the players are having to drop deeper to find space or by them being closer to the opposition players, it’s involuntary pushing them deeper and negating the actual attacking mentality.

Those are some of the reasons why this might happen and are the likely causes. But now let’s add some more context and briefly show the match stats to see if there is much difference between the two.

Attacking Mentality Stats

You can see I won the game 1-4 and despite the scoreline I was incredibly lucky in terms of the score. An own goal and two goals on and after 90 minutes really flattered us. We played well on face value with the score but that doesn’t tell the true story.

The individual stats show us a little bit more of how the players play. Interestingly I notice the keepers pass completion and have just realised that I’ve not actually set it up so he distributes to the defenders. I’ll have to look into this more and see if his long distribution is worth the sacrifice for passes completed if it puts us on the front foot quickly.

The players condition is also low 70’s for most people. I’ll need to compare this with the standard mentality one and see if there is a drastic difference.

Standard Mentality Stats

We created a few more chances but overall there isn’t much difference between both sets of match stats and the score. We won the game 1-3. The times of the scoring were better though and it looks like we didn’t leave it to the last-minute or rely on an own goal. Could this be a sign of the way we attack? Possibly.

I think the biggest noticeable difference is condition, players seem to end the game with a lot higher percentage left compared to the attacking mentality one further up. This is expected because they are less gung-ho in their approach and should conserve energy better. But due to the average positions above, it wouldn’t have surprised me to see it a little lower than in actually was.

The goalkeepers distribution is still the same as I played the match the exact same way with the exception of one is done with an attacking mentality and one without.

Attacking Mentality Match Analysis

Here we can see just how much space there is between the fullback and the inside forward on my left hand side. It’s quite the distance and one simple ball from the oppositions fullback to the wide player takes out my inside forward from this phase of play. It puts me on the back foot immediately because now my midfield have to shift across and deal with it or my fullback is left with a 1v1 situation. Or alternatively my inside forward could try to sprint back to make up the ground he has lost.

If you want that to happen then it seems pointless having him so high to begin with. You could play him deeper by the use of a different mentality and help him conserve more energy as well as reducing the space. We can also use team shape settings to manipulate this but that brings up a host of other issues and isn’t really an option for this demonstration. The reasons being is I need and want this space that appears just not as much of it. Space and time is what will win me game by creating intelligent movement.

Here we have my left wingback Zeca on the ball. Instead of driving forward with the ball, which he can do because he has the space available and the time ahead of him, he is already looking to launch it to the strikers. However you can see the striker and inside forward aren’t positioned the best, nor are they really making a run forward, especially the one in front of him, that’s the inside forward he is launching the ball to. This is an issue as this inside forward is going towards the sideline rather than away from it. So then the ball is played what can he realistically do as he was going away from goal? Not only that but the opposition have plenty of cover to now allow the fullback to be caught in a 1v1 situation.

This is a rushed decision and my side wasting good opportunities where the player can venture forward more. Instead they’d rather look for the longer option regardless of how those players might be marked or what positions they are in. This is because mentality is also a risk factor, the higher the mentality the more likely a player will take risks, or as most people would say, do dumb ****. I’m not saying on the lower mentality there isn’t a chance that this doesn’t happen as it very well could. However if you’ve set the roles up correctly and have the right balance in the set up then it’s less frequent that you’ll see this happening. Were as currently, this is very common to see.

At times when this kind of pass works it's great and we look deadly but it doesn’t happen enough and for most parts, wastes the move or just cheaply gives possession away. Another things is that when this happens, it also means the striker or inside forward aren’t making those dangerous runs because they’re not getting the chance to do them. Instead they get backed into corners or are surrounded by too many of the opposition's players. So trying to move the ball forward quickly isn’t always the best for this reason. It also makes it harder for the supporting players to catch up with play and is often why you might see people say things like their striker is very isolated and not getting a good supply. It might not be for this exact reason but it’s likely it’s something along these lines.

In this situation we have a move were the wingback as pushed on and is offering width. Then the inside forward is making a run forward too as is the striker. However my Segundo Volante who is on the ball (Yuri) is driving forward with it but he has no real support as players are positioned to high on the this occasion or surrounded by players who can easily cut out the pass or make the tackle. This is the downside of an attacking mentality when players get positioned too high, it means they have limited space to work with due to the high starting points.

It also makes it incredibly difficult for the player on the ball to pick out a pass and often sees him just crack a shot from distance. Which happens on this particular occasion. I also see posts relating to this and people pointing out the good positions they think my inside forward, wingback and even striker have taken up. I guess they have if you look at it but when you add context to it and the players position who is on the ball, it’s clear to see he is isolated with what he can do. The attacking side of things are cut off from him. Not all the time though and it comes back to the frequency aspect of how often something happens. You’ll find that in attacking set ups this is much more common.

In this screenshot we can see why my defence is deep and that is because the opposition striker is very deep in my half, admittedly we’ve just won possession but we won that at the halfway line. So we see that the defence is deeper than everyone else and likely too deep. This is because of the space the striker has, he’s making them stay deeper than they should. Also, using the Segundo Volante role doesn’t help here as we have possession of the ball so is already looking to attack. And it’s a role I want to use, however it looks like it's too aggressive for this set up and how attacking it is. He is making more risky decisions and being overly aggressive. The role is very aggressive to begin with and then the added mentality isn’t helping the situation. He’d be better by playing deeper and slightly more cautious than usual.

That would then provide two things. One would be cover for the defence and picking up the opposition players who are playing between my centrebacks and the defensive midfielders. Secondly, it should allow the defenders to push up more because the defensive midfielders would become responsible for picking up the striker instead. At the minute due to the aggressive nature, the defensive midfielders push up and leave the defenders playing as a separate unit to the rest of the side. Again there are ways to combat this slightly by the use of different roles, maybe an even higher defensive line but I’m supposedly already playing with those anyway. And changing roles defeats the purpose of what I’m creating and how I want to play.

Another thing happening in this screenshot is that Nilmar, who is my inside forward is the one who won possession back and as soon as he gets the ball he is already looking to hit the striker with those more direct/long balls. The issue with this is when that happens my striker becomes isolated or the ball is cut out by the opposition defenders. Support is lacking because Nilmar is supposed to be the support player. Again if he looks around though, he has space and time to play in buy decides against it. You can see when we get the ball my players are looking to get the ball forward as fast as possible. This is what mentality does on the higher ones, players take more risks and look to get the ball to the front players in the quickest, fastest possible way.

Yet again another situation where the side is looking to get the ball to the front far too quickly again. This time we see Yuri do a long ball up to where the inside forward is. Typically the ball is cut out and instantly we are on the back foot again. We aren’t being clever with the ball at all and aren’t using it wisely. When these kind of passes are pulled off properly it's a thing of beauty but it happens nowhere near frequent enough. Not only this but it’s making the whole side deeper than they actually should be. Every-time we get into situations like this, the same thing happens. We look to go from the front to the back in the quickest possible way. But because the ball gets cut out time and time again players are always deeper than they should be. Hence the average positions we saw at the very start.

Here we another perfect example of what happens when we attack recklessly at speed and without precision. The ball is lost and a simple ball back into my own final third means my defenders yet again cannot push up because they have to deal with the opposition striker who stays high up the pitch. It’s killing my play because it's not precise and well thought out football. The player's highest up the field are isolated or drifting too deep because the rest of the side just cannot push up and are being bogged down.

It just goes to show though that because someone is meant to be positioned high up the pitch because of his mentality, doesn’t mean he is. All sorts of factors play a part in why he might be higher than normal or deeper than usual. So far in the examples you see players dropping off the front for two main reasons;

• Bogged down and can’t move up field because we move the ball too fast for anyone to catch up. Going from a to b quickly isn’t always beneficial.
• The second reason is, it’s hard to find space so players come deep in the hope of finding it.

It’s like a never-ending cycle, for this game at least. We still won the game and scored four goals but like I pointed out at the start, the score line is flattering when you take into consideration the own-goal and the two very late goals. On a different day this could have been a 1-1 draw without those bits of luck.

I’m not saying never play attacking football with this shape, far from it. It’s more about understanding how the shape plays on different mentalities and how it differs. If you want to play attacking football then play it. Just beware of how everything links together. Also remember that attacking doesn’t always translate to attacking.

Standard Mentality Match Analysis

It’s early in the game but you can see how deep my entire side is. Not only that, but my defensive midfielder is also picking up the opposition striker meaning my defence can stay intact and start moving higher up the pitch. My side is closing down and chasing the ball but I think you can already see how the small difference of the defensive midfielder picking up the striker is helping my back line and freeing them up, so they can push higher up. This is allowing me to reduce the space the opposition has in my own half as the defence is moving advanced up-field towards my own midfielders.

Nilmar has the ball and this time drives infield because he isn’t rushing play. And my Segundo Volante is in acres of space in the centre of the pitch and is a little bit more reserved in the build up play and isn’t looking to attack constantly when we get possession of the ball. He’s being more clever in his play.

Due to team not all advancing forward and beyond the ball, it means we actually have space to run into and people creating and using space as we all move together. In this picture we have Yuri who can drive forward with the ball or play two different kinds of ball. One is a through ball straight down the middle for the inside forward to run onto. Or he can play it straight into the patch of the inside forward which is actually the more risky pass in this scenario due to how the opposition defender near the inside forward is positioned.

Yuri passes the ball through the middle, so basically a through ball for my inside forward to run onto. Now had the side not moved together and a relatively steady pace this move wouldn’t have happened. Or if it was on a higher mentality than standard, the chances are the ball would have been played first time from Yuri instead of him driving forward a little with the ball at his feet first. Our play now is more dangerous because we are playing as a unit, all of the team moving up and down the field at the same time. This is one of the reasons why the average positions in this mentality structure are actually higher than the attacking ones. Because we are moving and working as a cohesive unit.

Bruno manages to get onto the end of the ball but is fouled literally on the edge of the box and we win a free kick in a dangerous place.

In the attacking section further up, I showed the inside forward playing closer to the oppositions fullback(A) and leaving my own wingback exposed and susceptible to 1v1 scenarios. However now, we can see my inside forward is much deeper and inside my own half picking up the oppositions wide player. This means my wingback is free and can recover any loose balls or pick the player up should my inside forward not get the ball. Less pressure on the wingback is great as it means he is less likely to be exposed. Not only this but if he wins the ball back, he can also run with it down the wing and channel, which would put the opposition on the back foot.

I win possession of the ball back here deep inside my own half. But if you look at my players positioning, it’s not bad because they have space. The left sided inside forward and the deep-lying midfielder are already doing their job. The inside forward is pushing up behind the fullback into were the space is. While the deep-lying forward keeps the two central defenders busy. Yuri the Segundo Volante can be seen unmarked in the centre of the pitch. So my defenders play him the ball.

Yuri passes the ball to the attacking midfielder, Lucas Lima. He then hit it first time into the path of the inside forward because he was already aware of his run. Now Bruno Henrique is onside and away causing them all kinds of problems. You will have noticed I mentioned that in attacking mentalities the space is in front of the opposition players and when playing on lower mentalities or using players further down the pitch, then the space exists in behind the opposition. This is a prime example of what I’m usually talking about. Due to me being deeper this makes the opposition higher up when they break forward. So when they lose the ball we get situations like this and I can hit them with clever counter attacks or clever direct forward balls.

There was no chance of this happening on the attacking mentality because the player was either too advanced, or forced to come deep because he was marked, bringing the marker with him. Also because it encourages getting the ball forward quickly, Yuri might have bypassed Lucas Lima in this move and looked to hit the striker or even the inside forward much earlier. This can make moves break down. On this occasion though we are more calculated in our play and it’s not rushed. Instead the players are deciding when to take risks and the risks they do take are more likely to be successful.

This is the same move just shown from a different angle for better illustrate it. The inside forward Bruno Henrique drive forward with the ball when he received it from Lucas Lima. You can see that the opposition centrebacks have been split, one of them has gone very deep leaving the striker alone in space. While the other one has gone across to deal with the inside forward. Now Bruno Henrique can do a simple sideway pass to Ricardo Oliveira who has lots of time and space. He drives forward a little bit after receiving the ball and let's go of a fierce shot which flies past the goal by inches. It’s a brilliantly worked team move which should have seen a goal scored. It all started with my central defender too.

I’m not saying people can’t play on higher mentalities far from it. But you have to realise how they differ from the lower mentalities. Not only this but it’s vital you understand how the mentality works with the roles and duties you use. If you use aggressive roles and an aggressive mentality like a Segundo Volante on an attacking mentality, then you’ll see him venture forward constant with disregard for any danger he might be leaving behind. While on a lower mentality you should see him play slightly different and work better and make more intelligent runs and passes. He will still take risks but those risks will happen as and when he believes the right time to take them. Rather than allowing the mentality of the team to decide he should do it more frequently.

I’ve shown examples of why I prefer lower mentalities. It’s probably not as many examples as you wanted but the article is already far too long and I didn’t want to waffle on.

[Cleon]

When playing football manager and selecting player roles, a few individuals choose a role and think that is it and expect it to perform instantly. But in some cases it’s much more than the role you’ve selected and is about the team as a whole, especially for roles that are creative or for the ones you want to be the goal scoring roles. If you use a creative role, then who is the player creating for? Who provides him the ball and what the player do with the ball. Or if it’s a goal scoring role, then who is the one providing the supply and what kind of supply? Who offers the support? And so on.

It’s not a simple case of selecting a role and leaving it at that. There is a much bigger picture. So hopefully in this article I can show you the Inside Forward and how I utilise him. I’ll also be focusing on why he scores, what his play involves and explain why the roles around him, allow this kind of play. But first let’s look at the player and his development first, to understand everything about the player.

Rodrygo

For those who follow me on Twitter, you’ll know that Rodyrgo is my golden boy and is going to become the main man at the club. I’m hoping he will break all kinds of records, especially the goalscoring ones.

At the end of the first season he had seen quite the change, not only in terms of attributes but also with his personality.

Personality  - Start of the season balanced. End of the season it’s now ambitious. This means his tutoring session went to plan and not only have we seen a rise of his determination attribute from 10 to 14, we also know that his hidden attribute, ambition has also seen a raise.

Role training - For the entire season I kept him on the role training of the inside forward schedule.

Individual attribute focus - I only had him on stamina training for 3 month and then I removed it. I didn’t add another because he was still complaining about a heavy workload due to a poor personality and he was playing a lot of games. I didn’t want to increase the injury risks.

End of Season Two

During the second season he improved an awful lot, not only in terms of attributes but his overall game play too. He grabbed a lot of goals and assists compared to the year before. This no doubt had impacted his develop in a good way.I haven’t had him tutored again since the first time as I have no suitable tutors for him.

Role training - Short term he is my inside forward and thriving at the role currently. However due to how he is developing (attribute wise) and my long-term plans for him (I see him as the main striker eventually), I start to training him differently now. I feel the inside forward role no longer really suits him as the attributes that category trains are already getting high now. I could make them even higher but I want to focus on other aspects of his game now to make him even better.

That’s why I now put him on the complete forward schedule as I look to bring his other attributes up to scratch. This won’t be a long-term training though, it’ll be done for 18 months at the maximum, as I don’t want him to become a well-rounded player, I still want him to specialise and favour his high attributes. But I don’t want the other attributes to fall too far behind.

There’s nothing wrong with having rounded players, it’s just I prefer to have players who can do a specific job. The job I want Rodrygo to do is actually quite complex and I need him to develop more before I start discussing that side of things. But this will happen in a later article.

End of Season Three

By far his best season to date and all from the inside forward spot too. His attribute development is going as I wish and he’s become a world-class player in three seasons time. I still believe he has room to develop even further though. During this third season I gave him a heavy individual attribute for first touch, as I felt it was lower than it should have been in comparison to his other attributes.

So in three seasons we’ve seen these attributes rise;

Technical Attributes       

• Corners +4  
• Crossing +4
• Dribbling +2
• Finishing +4
• First Touch +5
• Free Kicks +4
• Heading +2
• Long Shots +3
• Long Throws +1
• Marking +2
• Passing +4
• Penalty Taking +4
• Tackling +1
• Technique +3

So we’ve seen a 43 point increase across all his technical attributes with first touch, being the one that saw the biggest improvement. Which makes sense as this is the only one I focused on apart from stamina in season one.

Mental Attributes

• Anticipation +3
• Bravery -1
• Composure +4
• Concentration +3
• Decisions +3
• Determination +7
• Flair +1
• Leadership +2
• Off the Ball +3
• Positioning +2
• Teamwork +2
• Vision +3
• Work Rate +2

Here we can clearly see the direct result of tutoring which originally made the attribute be 14 in value. However the increase to 15 in value is down to the squad personality which is now determined, it grew one more point due to this. We can also see that bravery took a one point drop, this was due to a recent injury. On Football Manager 2018 we see this more often, we can sometimes see the bravery take an immediate loss for the attribute when someone is injured. Once he’s fit and playing regular again, it should begin to rise to what it was before.

Physical Attributes

• Acceleration +4
• Agility +5
• Balance +5
• Natural Fitness +1
• Pace +4
• Stamina +5
• Strength +6

We’ve seen much bigger attribute chances here compared to the mental and technical attributes. The reason being there are less in the physical attributes than the others. When I first posted about this player, some people acted like he was the finished product and didn’t take him being 15 years-old at the time into consideration. They were quick to point out his flaws and focus on what he cannot do. The truth is, players at a young age can be shaped how you want and just because an attribute might be low at the time, doesn’t mean it will be when he’s fully developed.

We can see above how much he has changes in a 3 year time period. When you view a youth player try to think of the bigger picture and see that his attributes could be much higher in the next five or so years.

Rodrygo has had a great three years both in terms of attribute development and performances. I will be going into some depth about the performances in a later article when I get some free time, to show how you can bring youths through without compromising your results.

The Inside Forward Role

To ensure you have a good goal scorer the first thing you need is someone or multiple people to provide the striker, or in this case the inside forward, with chances he can put away and provide him with support to pass to, create space or even to occupy an opposition player for him. Without any of these then you’ll struggle to have someone who can regularly score 25+ goals a season.

I’ve already mentioned a few aspects of what is needed to create a goal scorer but here are more;

• Supply
• Support
• Space
• Movement
• Roles
• Duties

The supply and support are vital parts of helping someone become a goalscorer. This is what can create the movement both for the player to use and around him so it makes the opposition make a decision. This is how gaps appear for you to exploit and use to your advantage. However another big part of this is the role and duty of the player and those around him, as this will determine not only what the player does, but how the people around him behave too.

To further explain all of these points and how they link together, I should probably show you some examples of how it all works in a game environment. If you want to know about the system I am using then you can find it discussed here

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/4-2-3-1-introduction

 

Even though I’m using the 4-2-3-1 deep, all the principles I speak about in this topic should be applicable regardless of what shape you use. All the principles are the same regardless of formation.

Passes Received

It’s important to see what kind of areas the player receives the ball, as this will show how involved he is in the build up play and what kind of areas he has taken up as he is about to receive the ball.

Here we can see the goalkeeper is playing the ball out to my defender Guilherme. But if we look further forward we can see Rodrygo who is moving towards the flank to give himself some space. Due to him being unmarked, Guilherme is going to hit him early with the ball. Once he gets the ball, he knocks it down to the Segundo Volante who is offering support. However nothing happens during this move but the point isn’t to show what Rodrygo does yet, it’s just to highlight and get an idea of who is passing to him and in what kind of areas.

This is almost from an identical area as the first example but this time he receives the ball from the Segundo Volante. We can also see how unmarked he is and all the acres of space he has to play in, due to the positions he is taking up. Due to me playing on a standard mentality, he isn’t too advanced and cut off from the rest of the side. He is very much a big part of all build up phases and this makes him harder to pick up and mark because he drops deep.

Rodrygo also offers us an outlet for when we are very deep in our own half, as can be seen above. We won the ball back and due to Rodrygo offering width, we can play the ball straight out to the wing to relieve some of the pressure. It also means we are immediately on the front foot because Rodrygo can drive forward with the ball and stay wide until the rest of the play catches up with him.

Now we’ve seen a little glimpse into where he receives the ball but not let’s have a look how the inside forward works for the system I’m using.

In the above image we can see both the teams shapes and the positioning of the defenders and midfielders. It’s almost identical to each other. You can see Rodrygo unmarked and in the space between the fullback and the winger. My keeper notices this and can use him as an outlet and do long balls to him. I don’t have the keeper set to short distribution as I’d miss out on this kind of stuff, it also means my keepers passing accuracy suffers a lot because of this but I don’t mind, if on the occasions it works, results in a chance or even a goal being scored.

Now I know what you are thinking here, and it's that if I can do this then so can the opposition seeing how we are matched up and you’d be correct. However, in a proper defensive phase my inside forward would drop much deeper and be helping the fullback out. So in that sense, it’s less risky due to the mentality I am using. Nonetheless though, the keeper hit the ball straight to Rodrygo.

After Rodrygo held up the ball he played it back to the midfielders who then played it to the winger over on the right. Once this happened the game got stretched because we switched play. Looking at the above though, it seems we lack options upfront but actually I don’t. What happens next is a vital component of why the inside forward role works excellent for me.

Due to the striker attacking the box because the winger is running towards the byline, this means the oppositions defenders are in panic mode and they’re more focused on the early running, my striker. Which in turns mean Rodrygo has been left unmarked. Not only this, but due to the strikers early run he has created lots of space for the inside forward to use. No-one is near him and no-one is marking him.

The two main reasons why this space was created is because of;

• The striker who is a deep-lying forward on an attack duty.
• Using a winger who looks to get to the byline with the ball.

The striker is the one who creates the space and this is the reason I gave him an attack duty and not a support one. As I want him to still be a spearhead when attacking and not dropping as deep in moments like this. Other roles would work too in this scenario. The forward doesn’t need to do anything other than run in this set up, as this is what creates space. Just a simple run into the box without a ball.

The second reason it works so well is the winger and his attacking ability and his aim of going as deep into the oppositions half as possible and picking out a cross. You should be able to see in this example how both the striker and winger role allows the inside forward space, time and creates the movement for him by taking the whole defensive unit away from him. It’s also one of the reasons I like variety in my attacks and don’t like using the same role on both sides. If I used two inside forwards then the responsibility for this kind of play would fall solely on the striker, which is much harder to do. The payoff is also poorer in my opinion as it makes you more one dimension and your play is easier to predict. You basically make things easier for the AI if you only attack in one way.

In the above example, on this occasion Lincoln didn’t provide an accurate ball to Rodrygo or the striker. It was a poor ball but then again I am using a pure striker as a winger for this game due to injuries and suspensions. Things aren’t going to work all the time, that’s not realistic and if it did work all the time, that would be a bug. However it happens frequent and that is how you should measure success on Football Manager and if something is working tactically, by the frequency of how often it happens.

The move wasn’t lost though and the ball was cleared from the initial cross but then found it’s way to my Segundo Volante seconds later. I use a creative Segundo Volante who has the players preferred move of ‘tries killer balls often’. I love this PPM as it means he does stuff like the above all the time, he is constantly hitting the space the inside forward is in and either plays the ball in between the space of the fullback and wide player. Or he attempts to put the ball into the area between the fullback and the defender. On this occasion, he chooses the wider options, so now Rodrygo can become the winger and provider. He receives the ball and drives forward for a second then just hits the ball across the goal for the striker to turn home.

While the inside forward is normally the highest scorer in the side, he’s also one of the most creative and gets a ton of assists. His play isn’t all about scoring goals and he can often be found becoming provider like in the above example. It’s not forced creativity though and is all natural, meaning it's an added extra rather than funneling play through him, like a playmaker role would. I speak about it all the time but having a variety way of creating and scoring goals makes the game much easier. Too many people play one-dimensional these days and that’s why they come up with the ‘The AI has worked me out’ stuff that people come out with. The AI doesn’t ever do that, but if you only create and score in a specific way then when this doesn’t go to plan you have no plan b.

Which means you struggle and why you have to change stuff so much. I’m not saying you can’t be successful that way but it brings an awful lots of negativity with it, playing that way and makes the game harder than it needs be. It’s also one of the reasons you should think of a tactic as a whole, rather than focusing on specific individuals or roles. Because in isolation it’s meaningless if it doesn’t actually fit how you play.

 

This time we see the inside forward scoring a goal. The rightback combines with the right winger who then passes the ball to the Segundo Volante, who then in turn passes to the attacking midfielder, who then plays in the inside forward. So again we are seeing the team combine and use the pitch in different ways to offer support and create. There is actually another component at play here too though and that is PPM’s. I have two players who play this role;

Now depending on which of these players I play in the attacking midfielder spot, determines how different we attack. If I use Alexandre Tam, then quite often I see him doing stuff like the above, where he plays the inside forward in. This is because of his PPM’s, he is tailored to be a pure passing outlet and these make him attempt different types of balls. Yet when I play Lucas, we don’t see those type of ball at all. I don’t mind that as we attack slightly different then and the onus is back on Rodrygo to make the intelligent moves. To give you a better indication of just how badly this impacts Rodrygo’s stats here are some stats;

Now if we ignore the goals scored in the first season, as he was only 16 years old and was still really underdeveloped. However if we look at the last two seasons, we can see he scores a similar amount of goals but the number of assists he gets is very different.

Can you guess which season the above AM’s were paired with Rodrygo the most based on assists? The 2019 season is with Alexandre Tam and the 2020 season with Lucas. One of the reasons why the number of assist differ drastically is down to the fact that Lucas isn’t as selfless as Tam and doesn’t try killer balls frequently. So without the killer balls often, it takes away from Rodrygo’s all round game. One of the reasons why is because of the gif example I posted above. When he receives those type of balls he can normally square it for the striker, winger or an on running midfielder to put the ball in the net.

It doesn’t mean Lucas isn’t as good as Tam, it just means they play the role different and this impacts the overall play. The goal tally is roughly the same though, the 2020 goal scored seems a bit better but he had two games were he scored 5 goals so it’s padded the stats out slightly. I think this kind of stuff might be better explained in another article though as this one is already getting quite long and I’ve not covered everything that I want just yet. Just after Christmas, I’ll look at finishing off part two with a lot more examples and explanations.

 

 

[Cleon]

Meet The Segundo Volante

One of my favourite additions to Football Manager 2018 was one of the new player roles, the Segundo Volante. There has been a lot wrote about the role already but none of what has been written is that accurate and doesn’t really highlight what the role does and how it behaves. Hopefully this article can clear some of the misconceptions up.I actually wrote about the new roles briefly and what they did when Football Manager 18 was released.

The article can be found here;

 

Out of all the midfield roles we have available currently on the game, the Segundo Volante is probably the most complete role of them all. It’s a demanding role and takes a certain type of player to pull it off. The player must have the attributes similar to those of the Box to Box midfielder for attacking situations. Then when the ball is lost he needs the attributes that you’d expect to find in a Defensive Midfielder, hence why I class it as a complete midfielder role.In recent years players such as Ramires, Paulinho, Hernanes and Elias all played this role while still playing in the Brazilian leagues.

A more recent European player you might be familiar with, playing this role, would be Bastian Schweinsteiger.

In Game Description

The ‘Segundo Volante’ is different from the Deep Lying Playmaker in that their role is primarily a defensive one, and is also different from the Ball Winning Midfielder, in that they often run with the ball, or arrive with a late run, into the opposition area in much the same way a Box-to-Box Central Midfielder does. It’s a common role for those familiar with Brazilian football and team often field two of them or pair them with an anchorman. You can also only use the role from the outer defensive midfield positions i.e DMLC/DMRC and is unavailable from the DM spot.

• With a support duty, the Segundo Volante will look to support the attack whilst picking and choosing his opportunities to arrive late in the opposition’s penalty area.
• With an attack duty, the Segundo Volante will get further forward and frequently look to arrive late in the opposition’s penalty area as well as attempting more shots on goal.

You’d expect a Segundo Volante to help start and support attacks, while also chipping in with assists and scoring too. The role suits systems where you might lack central midfielders like in a deep 4-2-3-1. The player would play like a central midfielder in possession of the ball but should act like a defensive midfielder when out of possession. It’s worth noting that if you use this role on an attack duty the player might seem ‘reckless’ in a positional sense because he will be going very high into the final third of the pitch and taking up those kind of positions. So if you lose the ball, you could find him struggling to regain his natural position.

That’s the basic overview of the role. But the role is so much more than the above and is a very demanding role. If you use this role then you need to make sure you have a player who is fit above all else. Even the most fittest player will still get low condition at times due to the role being that demanding. In my own saves, I often find myself having to substitute the player in most games due to condition reaching -70% around the 70-75 minute mark.

People think the role is overpowered or superhuman but it’s not, those people don’t really understand the role and the drawbacks it brings both physically and from a tactical standpoint. If you use the wrong kind of player in this role then you might increase the risk of serious injury due to the high demanding nature of the role.

One thing to note about the Segundo Volante and it’s behaviour is that its different to any other role on the game. The weighting of the role underneath the hood are different, meaning it’s more ‘reckless’ and can’t be replicated via a different role with player instructions added, it’s unique. So let’s take a look at how the role actually works from an in-game perspective.

Analysis

In case people are wondering what formation I am using, it’s the one that I’ve spoke about in the 4-2-3-1 Deep series I’ve been doing. This is actually the fifth article in that series. So if you want to know more about the tactic I’m using then check out the previous ones.

 

All of those should give you an insight into how I'm playing. It's better to link those pieces rather than going over the tactical aspects again. This means I can focus solely on the role of the Segundo Volante in this article.

Before I jump into the examples, it’s worth having a look at a few individual stats from a game to see a quick snapshot of how he performs statistically and to see what kind of areas he is taking up.

Passes Received

Here we can see the area’s he receives the ball. Nothing sticks out here and it all looks how you’d expect it to be. 89 times he received the ball.

Passes Completed

Here we can see that when he received the ball in deeper areas, he brought the ball forward before distributing it. You can see how forward thinking he is in regards to his passing. Again though, all this is expected and nothing sticks out as being out of the ordinary.

Passes Intercepted

Looking back at these clips, all of these were silly interceptions and balls he’s shouldn’t have been playing in the first place. So it’s something to note and look at a little further in the article.

Gained Possession

In this last screenshot we get a little glimpse into his defensive side of the game and can see the areas were he gained us possession of the ball.

Match Analysis

In the first part of this move, we can see that the Segundo Volante (Victor Yan) makes an initial run from deep. But when Lucas Lima gets the ball, Victor’s marker leaves him free and goes to deal with the threat from Lucas. This means Victor is left free and he knows this, it’s why he stops his run to become a supporting passing option.

Then in the second part of the move he turns into provider once he received the ball from Lucas Lima. He passes it down the wing to the rampaging left back who is totally unmarked. Once the ball leave’s Victor’s foot he then turns into a supportive player again by becoming a runner. Just look at his run and how no-one at all is picking up his late run. Everyone is focused on the ball and not the runners from deep. It’s so simple yet effective, I love these kind of moves because it creates chaos for the opposition once they realise the player made a run.

Unfortunately he doesn’t get picked out with the ball again and the move falls flat. But already we have seen how he juggles being;

• Supportive player
• Provider
• Creator
• Runner

The creator and running side of the things in this example happen because of each other. You don’t have to have the ball at your feet to become a creator. By making late runs after passing the ball he automatically becomes a runner which in turn created lots of space to run into. When I speak about having runners and support players from deep in past articles, this is the exact type of thing I am referring to.

Another short example of him becoming a runner from deep and going beyond the initial play so that when the ball is in higher positions he again becomes an option. He also checks his run again because he’s aware the attacking midfielder, is also running into the same area.

Once again he is in acres of space and has so much time and space. It’s nothing amazing he does here, it’s all simple basic stuff. But look how he attacks when the ball is more advanced than he is, he bursts a gut trying to get further afield to get involved with play again.

As you’ll be seeing, he is very much the one making the entire team tick so far just by picking the ball up in deeper areas then passing it further forward and putting the opposition on the back foot. He is also running around a lot and moving around into empty space.

To get the most out of a Segundo Volante it’s imperative you allow him to thrive. This means the shape you use and the roles around him will all impact what he does. In the above examples I am using the deep 4-2-3-1 meaning he has lots of space to run into which helps. In other shapes his movement might be more restricted based on the roles around him. You’d also notice a big difference if you use a playmaker of any kind in the same side too, as that can possibly take the ball away from him as the play, is more channeled through the playmaker instead. In this current setup that I use, he is a natural playmaker and making things tick all on his own.

The Segundo Volante doesn’t actually dribble with the ball much in the system I am using, he’s more focused on using space and running which is what I want from him. He does get in the box though and score goals as well as assisting people.

 Assists

Goals

You can see that he is very good in and around the oppositions box and all his threatening play happens here. The opposition just don’t know how to handle him because he runs from deep and joins the attacks at the very last possible opportunity. Scoring goals and getting assists are a big part of his game. The clips above show the types of things he does in those situations better than I could have explained in words myself.

Defensive Situations

The player still does all the usual defensive work of a defensive midfielder when attacking. So he will close down, chase balls and help protect the defence if he is able to drop back to his natural position quickly enough. It can be risky at times though especially if he doesn’t get back in time, which is rare, but it does happen.

That’s why you should pair him with someone who is more positional strict than he is, so you aren’t totally exposed. On the flip side though if you use an aggressive tactic then you could use two of them to dominate the middle and really take the game to the opposition. It’s risky but if your side is one of the strongest in the league and expected to win most games, then it is possible to use two Segundo Volante's.

Player Development

The Segundo Volante is a player who will be heavily PPM based. The ones he will eventually have are;

• Gets forward whenever possible.
• Dictates tempo.
• Plays one twos
• Runs with ball through the centre

The reason behind this is, I want the player to be aggressive and his role already allows this. However if I use a support Segundo Volante instead of the current attack duty I use, I shouldn’t lose any of this natural attacking ability. Another reason behind these PPM’s are that I want him to slow or speed play up when he sees fit.This will add another dimension to the role and allow the player to decide when he thinks play needs to be quickly or slower. It can be a really good counter attacking player trait. By allowing the player to also play one twos this will give me a quick change of pace at times and hopefully create space and movement, just by playing one twos.

Season One

I was fortunate enough to have a player in the youth ranks of Santos who would become my long-term project for the Segundo Volante role. This was him at the very start of the season;

He is a bit weak in places but being only 15 years old, this is not an issue at all. Due to his age he could realistically be moulded into any role that I wanted him to play. One of the first things I do is work on his personality type, as he was only a balanced one himself at the start of the game. So I had him tutored with Renato who was fairly determined. As for the rest of his training he was just placed on the Segundo Volante training schedule and nothing more.

By the end of season one he had made a remarkable progress on his personality and with his attributes.

His personality type had gone from balanced to a fairly determined one due to a successful tutoring session. And he’d also picked up a players preferred move during the process too, which was another reason I had selected Ranato to the tutor in the hope he picked it up. This means he has saved me six months trying to teach it him. As for his attributes, you can see almost everyone has changed by at least one attribute gain but a lot of them have seen an increase of two or more attribute point gains.

During the second half of the season he also found himself getting a lot of game time. I’d have liked to play him earlier but I can’t until he reaches 16 years old due to the league rules. However that wouldn’t have made much difference to his development as training is the driving force for attribute development for players under the age of 17 years old. It’s only once a player reaches 17 that game time becomes one of the main factors. Below that age it all comes from training.

Second Season

By the end of the second season Victor Yan had shown he was developing extremely well and surprisingly, at a very fast rate. During this season I had gave him the following individual training;

• Strength for 2 months
• Stamina for 2 months
• Passing for 2 months

The reason behind this was, I felt being more powerful and working on his strength would help with those surging runs he makes. It would also help his defensive side of the game too and allow him not to be bullied around. I feel for the Segundo Volante, a little bit of strength makes a huge difference as you want him to be able to hold his own and shrug off challenges.

Working on his stamina was also needed and it’s already at a good standing but long-term it’ll likely be the most important attribute he has. Especially if you don’t want to substitute him half-way through every single game you play.

In the game examples above you’ve seen how important he is and the positions he takes up. That’s why I also worked on his passing so he can take advantage of that. There’s nothing worse than seeing a player take up great positions time and time again yet lack the technical skills to make the most of it. By working on his passing and trying to bring it up to a higher standard, it will hopefully benefit his team mates.

His season overall was really good and he grabbed a few goals and assists which is always good to see. Even at such a young age he is showing how important he is becoming to the team and he is only going to get better in the next couple of years.

Season Three

[Cleon]

Reserved

[Cleon]

Rserved

[Cleon]

I'll be adding to this a lot over the coming weeks once I get the time to finish off the other sections I've started writing

[Armistice]

This is great, just finished reading it, can't wait for more, Cleon!

[Brasmuss]

Looking forward to following this thread

[Rashidi]

Very nice, the only difference between our two deep 4231s is the fact that I paired mine with a DLP and am using a Wide TQ and the system is led by another TQ up top. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the article

 

[ferrarinseb]

Great Article again 

[llado01]

i love you @Cleon

[Cleon]

20 minutes ago, llado01 said:

i love you @Cleon

What have I told you about posting on here mum 

[Gegenklaus]

Exciting read. Looking forward to the forthcoming analysis - especially on the segundo volante role and how He acts in this system. 

As always you inspire my own thoughts on tactical creativity. Especially the mentality side of the game. I've never been good at making tactics, But thanks to guys like you, Cleon, Ji-sung Park, Özil to the Arsenal and - last But not least - Rashidi I've come far. 

[Cleon]

6 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Exciting read. Looking forward to the forthcoming analysis - especially on the segundo volante role and how He acts in this system. 

As always you inspire my own thoughts on tactical creativity. Especially the mentality side of the game. I've never been good at making tactics, But thanks to guys like you, Cleon, Ji-sung Park, Özil to the Arsenal and - last But not least - Rashidi I've come far. 

This is great to hear and helpful feedback, especially for me. I always set out with the main aim of all my articles with the idea that they make you think and get you questioning your own decisions. So it's good to know that this does come across like this at times

[mikcheck]

Awesome Cleon. 

Cant wait to give this a read when i have the time, i'm sure it will inspire me for my deep narrow 4-2-3-1. Thanks for sharing this with us

[llado01]

I have never dared to use an amc (s) behind a dlf (a), it's spectacular combinations of passes and generate attack moves that can be done, thanks a lot

[macca7292]

Brilliant! Can't wait for the rest. Very interested in the segundo volante  role.

 

[Gegenklaus]

52 minutes ago, Cleon said:

This is great to hear and helpful feedback, especially for me. I always set out with the main aim of all my articles with the idea that they make you think and get you questioning your own decisions. So it's good to know that this does come across like this at times

Pleasure is all mine. I have throughout FM17 generally tried to emulate Thomas Tuchels system at Dortmund under his first season. Tried various formations but could never get the Gundogan role quite right. Maybe the movement of the segundo volante might do the trick.

[WhyMe]

Really interesting article, I too have never been fond of the 4-2-3-1 but I did give a go last year for one season.  Your analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the system is a good read.  My only problem is that the pictures don't load for me in either firefox or IE.  Anyone else having that problem?

[Cleon]

4 minutes ago, WhyMe said:

Really interesting article, I too have never been fond of the 4-2-3-1 but I did give a go last year for one season.  Your analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the system is a good read.  My only problem is that the pictures don't load for me in either firefox or IE.  Anyone else having that problem?

The pictures should be working fine, they are my end and on the site. Anyone else having this issue?

[Bantamtim]

Just now, Cleon said:

The pictures should be working fine, they are my end and on the site. Anyone else having this issue?

Yes, in Chrome.

[WhyMe]

I can't see them on your teaandbusquets site either btw.

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, Bantamtim said:

Yes, in Chrome.

You can see them or can't?

[Bantamtim]

Just now, Cleon said:

You can see them or can't?

Can't see them.

[Cleon]

I honestly don't know the issue, I've literally got loads of people on social media telling me its all fine for them and on the site everything is working as it should nothing is hidden. So not sure what the issue is.

[Mitja]

four attacking duties on standard mentality? how many AI uses on standard?

[Toffle]

Can't wait for the next part either!

Your writing is smooth and the tactic building progression makes a lot of sense. Truly enjoyable

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, Mitja said:

four attacking duties on standard mentality? how many AI uses on standard?

1-2 probably. Not sure why that matters though?

[Mitja]

it doesn't metter. just seems a lot more than AI would use. I like to play with same rules as AI. 

nevermind.

[Rashidi]

18 minutes ago, Mitja said:

it doesn't metter. just seems a lot more than AI would use. I like to play with same rules as AI. 

nevermind.

I didn't know the AI had specific rules when it came to the number of duties its supposed to use.

[kingjericho]

I'm using Chrome and everything is working as it should.

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, kingjericho said:

I'm using Chrome and everything is working as it should.

As it it for everyone else it seems, thanks for that

If you can't see the images then there are two reasons, 1) It's an issue at your end. 2) You're one of the banned IP's from the blog for being abusive over on there. There are 5 banned people so far. Those are the only two reasons why someone can't see the images, it has to be one of those.

Quote

Can't wait for the next part either!

Your writing is smooth and the tactic building progression makes a lot of sense. Truly enjoyable 

Thanks, hopefully the analysis will follow suit too

[Armistice]

54 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I didn't know the AI had specific rules when it came to the number of duties its supposed to use.

No I think he read something related in Cleon's Counter Attacking thread where he said the AI usually uses a number of attacking duties per each duty.

 

Btw one thing that made me curious @Cleon when I saw the deep 4-2-3-1 was that if a DLP-S in DM strata will stay deeper in the attacking transition than a DLP-S in CM strata (logic would say it should stay deeper because of lower individual mentality).

 

And if, because of this, you decided to go with this formation which can look like a 4-3-3 in attack?

Edited November 1, 2017 by Armistice

[Cleon]

8 minutes ago, Armistice said:

No I think he read something related in Cleon's Counter Attacking thread where he said the AI usually use a number of attacking duties per each duty.

Correct yeah. The AI does follow certain rules but isn't strictly tied to them and will go beyond them at times if its needed. But as a general rule, what was posted in that thread is still correct in terms of the mentality and duties used. 

As for the edited part, that's the beauty of a 4231, you can make it morph into different shapes with just a simple duty or role change. That's why its very versatile and been a popular choice irl for so long.

[wicksyFM]

Great article Cleon. Been using some of your advice and my 4231 with Huddersfield has morphed into a 4411. Still, it looks like a 4231 during a game.

And i have just beat Man city 2-0

Edited November 1, 2017 by wicksyFM

[Marc.Foster050]

I'm looking at having a 4-2-3-1 shape in a  save and wanting it to be secure first and foremost so going for the deep option. Appears I've always fallen into the trap of thinking they have to be top heavy to get the attacking hape but when someone actually writes it down that its just how you're setting up defensively of course it makes sense. Now for the fun part trying to get the balance of defence and making sure the striker doesn't get isolated correct :-)

 

Thanks @Cleon great write up as per usual

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Ooh, a nice article. 

Expecting plenty of food for thought, as usual. ^_^

[tajj7]

Interesting on the IF-A with a WB-S combo and then a WB-A and W-S combo on the other flank, was trying to work out how these would look on the pitch in my head as for some reason the opposite combos make more sense to me.

IF-S who vacates space on the left and then the WB-A bombs past him on the overlap, then the W-A runs at his man on the right going for the by line whilst the WB-S is ready behind him to give him an out ball and maybe cross from deep or work the ball into the middle. 

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

No I think he read something related in Cleon's Counter Attacking thread where he said the AI usually uses a number of attacking duties per each duty.

 

Btw one thing that made me curious @Cleon when I saw the deep 4-2-3-1 was that if a DLP-S in DM strata will stay deeper in the attacking transition than a DLP-S in CM strata (logic would say it should stay deeper because of lower individual mentality).

 

And if, because of this, you decided to go with this formation which can look like a 4-3-3 in attack?

Yeah it was a knee jerk question to a thread I just closed which seemed to suggest hard and fast rules for the game. The AI is guided by a combination of duties, and the important word here is guided. So while its good to have a good balance of duties in your side, its really dependant on the overall formation and what you are trying to do.

[Cleon]

10 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Interesting on the IF-A with a WB-S combo and then a WB-A and W-S combo on the other flank, was trying to work out how these would look on the pitch in my head as for some reason the opposite combos make more sense to me.

IF-S who vacates space on the left and then the WB-A bombs past him on the overlap, then the W-A runs at his man on the right going for the by line whilst the WB-S is ready behind him to give him an out ball and maybe cross from deep or work the ball into the middle. 

Remember who I wanted to be the main scorer. It's also worth noting that even though what you say can work, it really doesn't fit in with the rest of the roles I've selected. I'd rather the winger be the player who overlaps because if I reversed it, I don't want the ball to be behind or on the side the IF is running from. This would mean he has to stop/turn around to get involved again. Doing the opposite way, the majority of the time he will be running onto/towards the ball which means he can cause more options and use space that is created. Having a player stop or have to turn around to get the ball can see the movement and momentum halted prematurely. I don't want to be wasteful. 

[GunmaN1905]

Just finished my first season with playing mostly 4-2-3-1 and some 4-3-3 with Inter.
Best home record in the league, but I really struggled in away games. The worst thing is it can't be explained with stats. I always had more shots, shots on target, chances but it just wouldn't go in.

Anyhow, in the second season I'm going to try and use an aysmetric approach.
On the left, attacking wingback and inside forward (maybe a winger cutting inside depending on the player's preferred foot) on attack duty, with MCL covering the side.
On the right, conservative fullback and a supporting winger(again, depending on the preferred foot, could be an inside forward).
One defender is a BPD who gets the ball from the keeper and starts everything.
The two roles I'm trying to figure out are MCR and AMC.

I got Sergej from Lazio in the squad and I want to recreate the Nainggolan in roma role.
Similar to Lampard for those of you who  don't follow the Serie A. Complete midfielder which surges into the opposition are and scores quite a few goals.
The third midifielder is a pure playmaker who doesn't need to score or get into many chances himself, just connect everything.

Icardi upfront, no chance I change any roles there, he scored nearly half of my goals in the first season.

My dilemma is if I should use a MC advanced playmaker with attacking midfielder on attack or AMC playmaker with box to box midfielder having get further forward instructions.
Control mentality, flexible structure.

[tajj7]

9 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Remember who I wanted to be the main scorer. It's also worth noting that even though what you say can work, it really doesn't fit in with the rest of the roles I've selected. 

Presumably this is because of the AM on support who would be competing for similar areas on the pitch as an IF-S? 

Quote

I'd rather the winger be the player who overlaps because if I reversed it, I don't want the ball to be behind or on the side the IF is running from. This would mean he has to stop/turn around to get involved again. Doing the opposite way, the majority of the time he will be running onto/towards the ball which means he can cause more options and use space that is created

Could you explain this more as I am a little confused on the issue, who is the winger overlapping? Is this to do with starting position? 

Also the DM-S, I note your comments here, would not a defend duty be something between an anchor man or DM-S

Edited November 1, 2017 by tajj7

[jonnyriv]

Great stuff as always Cleon, I shall be following this with interest.  Your work on developing youngsters and training changed the way i play. 

I decided to start a save yesterday before i had seen any of this, with Brighton, the idea i had was to play deep and out of the back when in possession but with the ability to ping the odd Hollywood wonder ball from deep when under the cosh. I came up with a tactic while i was at work which i tested out last night.  

Initially i set up as follows

Goalkeeper: Standard Goalkeeper - PI's for short kicks and distribute to the centre backs.

DL: FB S - No PI's

DCL: BPD C - More risky passes to try and bring out the occasional hollywood ball from the back.

DCR: CD S Pass it shorter

DL: FB D No PI's

DMCL: Anchor D Pass it shorter

DMCR: Roaming Playmaker S More risky, and more direct passing.

CM: BWM S No PI's

AML: IF A More direct passes

AMR: IF S More direct passes

CF; CF S More direct passes.

Counter mentality and Structured shape.  We had drop deeper, Play out of defence, More Disciplined, and shorter passing as the team instructions to draw teams onto us, keep our shape and and building from the back when in possession also had playing out of defence.

This formation proved to be solid as a rock at the back conceding only from set pieces.  The building from the back wasn't working well in possession though and the majority of our chances and goals were from long shots and most games finishing 1 nil to us.  Even against weaker opposition.

So i made some tweaks, added work the ball into the box to try and reduce the number of long shots the two inside forwards were taking and changing the shape to flexible to bring the players in the final third a bit closer together.

Goalkeeper: Standard Goalkeeper - PI's for short kicks and distribute to the centre backs.

DL: WB S - Mark the AMR - Changed from full backs to get them involved more in the build up play when in possesion.  This seems to have worked well.

DCL: BPD C - More risky passes to try and bring out the occasional hollywood ball from the back.

DCR: CD S Pass it shorter

DR: WB D Mark the AML, same as the DL position but more conservative than him.

DMCL: Anchor D Pass it shorter

DMCR: Roaming Playmaker S More risky, and more direct passing.

CM: BWM S added Get further forward and more direct passing.  This guy wasn't getting forward and supporting the attack much and was running around with the ball looking for a short pass.  He's now still winning the ball in the final third but is also popping up in the box and having a shot.

AML: IF A More direct passes

AMR: IF S More direct passes

CF; CF S More direct passes.

We are having huge amounts of possession and still only conceding from set pieces and we are having huge numbers of shots per game but still from outside the box predominantly.

I would like to encourage more link up play between my attacking 3 and the RMP and BWM who are performing as i would like in terms of positioning and stop the AMR and AML popping off so many long shots (which they are terrible at)

Things i am considering tweaking next are change the AMR to a winger support to reduce the cutting inside and long shots and give us a crossing option on the right side.  Changing the CF S to either a TM S or a DLF S, probably the latter as i don't want to channel long balls to the target man but more have all 3 forward players as options.  I don't really want to ask the AML to shoot less often if i can help it as i want him in the box scoring not passing.  

So the tactic tonight will look like this:

Goalkeeper: Standard Goalkeeper - PI's for short kicks and distribute to the centre backs.

DL: WB S - Mark the AMR

DCL: BPD C - More risky passes to try and bring out the occasional hollywood ball from the back.

DCR: CD S Pass it shorter

DR: WB D Mark the AML

DMCL: A D Pass it shorter

DMCR: RPM S More risky, and more direct passing.

CM: BWM S More direct passing, get further forward.

AML: IF A More direct passes

AMR: W S More direct passes

CF: DLF S More direct passes, more risky passes.

Mentality: Counter

Shape: Flexible

Instructions: Play out of defence, shorter passing, work the ball into the box, Drop Deeper and be more disciplined.

So my question is, am i on the right track for trying to play out of the back and springing counter attacks when the opportunity arises?  Would would you consider changing here and whats your opinion on replaing the RPM with the new Segundo Volante?

 

[Cleon]

Just now, tajj7 said:

Presumably this is because of the AM on support who would be competing for similar areas on the pitch as an IF-S? 

Could you explain this more as I am a little confused on the issue, who is the winger overlapping? 

1) I'd be having two players do similar things and attacking the same kind of areas. Not only this but it would be happening at the same time. Remember earlier in the article when I mentioned wanting to create a variety in the way I play, well this is one of the reasons. I want to attack the opposition from different areas at different times. Think of it like when you watch MMA or boxing. You don't see fighters hit the same area constant, not normally. You see them go for head shots, body shots and so on. Well tactics are the same, the more areas you attack from in different ways the more successful you are likely to be because the opposition cannot defend them all. Football is all about making the opposition make a choice and having that choice always be the wrong one.

An example would be lets say that the opposition is caught out of position and there are two centrebacks vs my AM and IF. If both my players are on support and attacking the same areas at the same time, then when one of the oppositions DC's step up to deal with it he's be close to both players meaning the other DC can pick up whichever player breaks through first etc. But if my players stagger the attack and my AMC runs at the same two defenders then the opposition has a real issue here. Do they stay compact and back off? Do they step up and try to deal with the situation? If they try to deal with it then a gap now appears for either the IF to run into if the oppositions DC go for the AMC. Or if one defender decides to go across to the IF and mark him, then we now have two 1v1 situations and in these cases the momentum should be with the player who is running at speed. He will either get a foul, create a chance or get disposed. But the important thing is creating different options.  It might not sound that great but then when you add a striker into the mix, you can really sense how that changes the dynamic again can't you?

2) The winger doesn't overlap, the Wingback on that side who is on an attack duty overlaps the winger. I create a 2v1 on the wings. Again its about making the AI make a decision and commit to it. If someone has to go across to cover whether it be a defender or midfield a huge amount of space will appear

[Cleon]

Also, I bet if @Rashidi spoke about his deep set up we would both be saying the same thing but his tactic will show another way of doing it compared to mine. But both would have many different ways to attack. This is the main difference between an okay tactic and a good one. It's the difference between being consistent and inconsistent. To be consistent you need variety. 

[NabsKebabs]

Interesting stuff, will be following.

I don't really see the point in a wingback on attack rather than just  fullback. In my experience, fullbacks work a lot better with wingers as they occasionally underlap the winger if he is very wide. 

 

[Str0aK]

Great thread Cleon.

I'm thinking of setting up a 4-2-2-1-1 (2 DMs, MR/L, AMC) to replicate my version of a 4-2-3-1. Been trying 4-4-1-1 but the gap between the DCs and MCs is a real problem defensively. I'll probably go without the extra closing down due to my wide players not being in the AM strata.