The 4231 Explained

[Ji-Sung Park]

You know who is a great segundo volante in this game? Marcelo Brozovic.

[Marc.Foster050]

1 minute ago, Powello said:

The full backs likely lose posession because you have the TI run at defence on. Personally I would switch that off and have work ball into box on.

I am using a similar set up and to counter the striker being isolated, if it looks like it is an actual problem in the build up to attacks, I move the CM up to the AM spot and have him as a AP(S). He still drops deep to the CM spot when defending but get's up to support the striker in attack. I tried the CM with get further forward PI, but that made no difference

Oh definitely. I've switched it off but got the wingers to dribble more with PI (not sure why I didn't do that to start with )

Yeah might try the am slot as could work but I don't want him to attract the ball so maybe just an am(s). I want to attack down the flanks when I get it so could work as long as I don't lose the defensive effort.

[Powello]

2 minutes ago, Marc.Foster050 said:

Oh definitely. I've switched it off but got the wingers to dribble more with PI (not sure why I didn't do that to start with )

Yeah might try the am slot as could work but I don't want him to attract the ball so maybe just an am(s). I want to attack down the flanks when I get it so could work as long as I don't lose the defensive effort.

I haven't seen any loss on the defensive side. I'm only using AP because of the player, AM-S should do similiar

[Cleon]

33 minutes ago, PMLF said:

I am glad the segundo volante is becoming so popular, far more than I expected when I asked the game coders to include it. It's an amazing role in real life, it's nice to see it can be a great role in the game as well.

As a fan of the role in real life, I'm glad you got it into the game. Makes creating Brazilian real life tactics all the better 

[Cleon]

46 minutes ago, Marc.Foster050 said:

Started playing with the following Tactic as Cardiff:

                                   GK(D)

WB(D)          CB(D)            CB(D)          FB(A)

                       A(D)             SV(S)        

W(S)                          CM(A)                  W(A)

 

                                 DLF(S)

Flexible - Counter

TI - Close Down much More, Play out of defence, Run at Opposition

PI - CM(A) More risky passes

Seeing Warnock's way of playing I've tried to replicate it but never thought about using the deep 4-2-3-1 until now. Only played pre season but already beaten Bayern after frustrating them and sneaking a 1-0.

Issues I have found so far are only that full backs lose the ball a lot and the striker can be a bit isolated which I'm not too bothered about. I would prefer not to score than to concede for fun when you are predicted a bottom half finish. I can always make small changes to try and sort that issue instead of panicking after a 4-0 loss every week.

Also I want the LM(W) to cut inside when he is running not just with the ball which I am trying to find a way of doing.

The Segundo Volante is brilliant! love how he goes past the cm and tries to get forward and help with attacks but also drops in to defend as well. Very taxing but I have two players I feel can play it.

Think this a brilliant addition. My red areas are in between the midfield and attacker which isn't a problem for me I'm more than happy for the opposition to play it around there :-)

The fullbacks losing the ball are likely a byproduct of your TI run at opposition. They're doing exactly what you've instructed them to do.

As for the striker being isolated, how? He has two wingers and an attacking CM behind. That should be more than enough support to supply him the ball. Unless you mean isolated when he receives the ball? In which case this is down to the roles and the only supporting player being the CM.

23 minutes ago, gandrasch said:

Very informative. I also try and find a new formation for this FM. Started with a 3421 and  transformed until I got something similar to your approach. Instead of an AM I'm trying a B2B in CM, but yet have to see if two late arriving players leaves to much space in the middle while attacking. 

And my wing backs are both a bit further up the pitch. The BPD will be a normal CD when I play with a DLP, if the DLP will become a DM or Anchor Man I will play him as BPD again.

 

 

Looking forward to the next piece very much!

I don't think its space you leave when you attack that would be the main concern. My slightly worry would be the BBM and SV using the same space and area of the pitch, so doing very similar things in attack. I think the BBM might take away from the SV's play and could see him restricted. I'd keep an eye on this if I was you and if you do see it happening, try something like offsetting the BBM instead of having him dead central. It could change how they work together and use space better.

15 minutes ago, DazBlade said:

I'm using the 4-2-3-1 with Preston at the moment, and I thought I'd managed to find a balanced way of playing when I last played it on Monday night.

Having read the content from @Cleon and other responses in this thread I am now questioning every single part of the tactic I use

If you're having success and are happy don't let me influence you. However if you are having issues, then it might be worth making notes and see if any of it relates to what I've written so far.

14 minutes ago, Powello said:

The full backs likely lose posession because you have the TI run at defence on. Personally I would switch that off and have work ball into box on.

I am using a similar set up and to counter the striker being isolated, if it looks like it is an actual problem in the build up to attacks, I move the CM up to the AM spot and have him as a AP(S). He still drops deep to the CM spot when defending but get's up to support the striker in attack. I tried the CM with get further forward PI, but that made no difference

I like posts like this and don't see many 'I tried X' type of posts to fix issues. People strangely, don;t talk about how they try and fix issues so its great to see your thinking here Powello and is a change I'd have probably done myself after modifying the CM like you did. 

[Cleon]

17 minutes ago, Marc.Foster050 said:

Oh definitely. I've switched it off but got the wingers to dribble more with PI (not sure why I didn't do that to start with )

Yeah might try the am slot as could work but I don't want him to attract the ball so maybe just an am(s). I want to attack down the flanks when I get it so could work as long as I don't lose the defensive effort.

Sometimes we can't see the most obvious issues even if they are starting back at us. It's why second opinions can be invaluable

13 minutes ago, Powello said:

I haven't seen any loss on the defensive side. I'm only using AP because of the player, AM-S should do similiar

[DazBlade]

6 minutes ago, Cleon said:

If you're having success and are happy don't let me influence you. However if you are having issues, then it might be worth making notes and see if any of it relates to what I've written so far.

I definitely won't change anything straight off the bat. I am adjusting how I watch and analyse my games though. 

The good thing about being a team like Preston who aren't expected to push is that I can experiment with less pressure. I'm only 4 points from the play-offs so I'm doing well, but I know there's room for improvement. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by DazBlade

[Powello]

3 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I like posts like this and don't see many 'I tried X' type of posts to fix issues. People strangely, don;t talk about how they try and fix issues so its great to see your thinking here Powello and is a change I'd have probably done myself after modifying the CM like you did. 

A manager on a game or in real life has to be able to adapt and try new things if something isn't working  

[Powello]

29 minutes ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

You know who is a great segundo volante in this game? Marcelo Brozovic.

I am looking at players who to sign for my united save for the SV and he is on my shortlist, but I have just noticed that Dele Ali has perfect stats for the role.

[Cleon]

7 minutes ago, DazBlade said:

I definitely won't change anything straight off the bat. I am adjusting how I watch and analyse my games though. 

The good thing about being a team like Preston who aren't expected to push is that I can experiment with less pressure. I'm only 4 points from the play-offs so I'm doing well, but I know there's room for improvement. 

Adjusting how you watch and analyse games can only be a good thing. The main point is knowing you have options, which you seem aware of and know how to use the tools available

5 minutes ago, Powello said:

A manager on a game or in real life has to be able to adapt and try new things if something isn't working  

The amount of people who don't know this on here though is staggering, jumping from team to team or save to save making the same mistakes 

[Ji-Sung Park]

4 minutes ago, Powello said:

I am looking at players who to sign for my united save for the SV and he is on my shortlist, but I have just noticed that Dele Ali has perfect stats for the role.

I'm testing a 4-2-3-1 with Inter now, slightly different to Cleon's, and the partnership with him and Dalbert on the left hand side is amazeballs. 

[Powello]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

The amount of people who don't know this on here though is staggering, jumping from team to team or save to save making the same mistakes 

Probably because people are so used to games like FIFA, PES, USM, Sensible Soccer(lol) etc where you don't have to think about things, you just play.

I love creating tactics, seeing what works and what doesn't. I always want to win, but I always want to win in a certain way, depending on who I start with. In my opinion, it's easy to set up a winning tactic, but to make a team play a certain way, it is more challenging and that is what I love about FM.

1 minute ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

I'm testing a 4-2-3-1 with Inter now, slightly different to Cleon's, and the partnership with him and Dalbert on the left hand side is amazeballs. 

Good to know, I have him on my shortlist, he is an option if I fail with my ALi bids

[saftmfc]

Other than Koulibaly giving away 4 pens and Hazard tearing TAA apart one game it's been quite a success so far

Sometimes feel that the DM SV can be too close together in defence so i'll look into fixing that if possible 

Can anyone think of a reason tactically why the pens might be happening there doesn't seem to be a repetitive pattern

 

[Powello]

1 minute ago, saftmfc said:

Other than Koulibaly giving away 4 pens and Hazard tearing TAA apart one game it's been quite a success so far

Sometimes feel that the DM SV can be too close together in defence so i'll look into fixing that if possible 

Can anyone think of a reason tactically why the pens might be happening there doesn't seem to be a repetitive pattern

 

I think it might be a coding issue tbh, I concede and win so many pens it's ridiculous. Like at least 1 pen every 3 games or so

[saftmfc]

8 minutes ago, Powello said:

I think it might be a coding issue tbh, I concede and win so many pens it's ridiculous. Like at least 1 pen every 3 games or so

Yeah 2 have been from a cross the keepers caught it then Koulibaly just kicks someone ... weird... he was meant to be the replacement for the serial brain farter Lovren but at the moment he's making even more than Lovren IRL

Edited November 3, 2017 by saftmfc

[Cleon]

If you think something isn't working as intended or it broken, please, please, please report it in the bugs section. Even if its been reported already, add more examples to make sure its easier for SI to identify and fix it. 

[Marc.Foster050]

42 minutes ago, Cleon said:

 

As for the striker being isolated, how? He has two wingers and an attacking CM behind. That should be more than enough support to supply him the ball. Unless you mean isolated when he receives the ball? In which case this is down to the roles and the only supporting player being the CM.

 

Its mainly when he receives the ball. I've tried to make it so they play out of defence and build to getting the ball to him when he isn't on his own. Its getting there the more I try little things. I'm liking how the tactic works to be fair as I've always been a defensive coach so trying to build from there but there is always room for improvement.

I've actually found against teams I am expecting to give a good game changing the SV to attack has worked a treat for supporting the striker and against teams I think I will struggle against dropping the defensive line and bringing teams onto me has worked as when we win the ball back my two wide players are so fast they get up to the striker pretty quickly when the counter kicks in.

[Deisler26]

I'm having serious issues with my team playing this. Is there such a thing as a team not good enough to play this?

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, Deisler26 said:

I'm having serious issues with my team playing this. Is there such a thing as a team not good enough to play this?

When you say this, what do you actually mean by 'this'? The exact same shape/settings I use? If so that's likely the issue as you haven't seen the analysis yet and if it works like I think it will. Plus you have to understand how it all links together for the final product.

[Deisler26]

22 minutes ago, Cleon said:

When you say this, what do you actually mean by 'this'? The exact same shape/settings I use? If so that's likely the issue as you haven't seen the analysis yet and if it works like I think it will. Plus you have to understand how it all links together for the final product.

OK. Let me explain.

Played three games. 

Game #1: vs FC Oss (Drew 1-1)

The goal conceded came from a long ball that shredded my defence and striker scored an easy 1v1. Lots of shots from the edge of the area over the bar (10 missed shots). That to me, suggests either a lack of composure or too high a tempo. I have copied your formation list, so it's not the tempo. Lack of composure is a possible, half the shots missed were by players with less than 9 composure. Player was sent off for two yellows, something that rarely happens when I try my own tactics (I'm not blaming the tactic, I'm saying I didn't react to the yellow quick enough). Striker got 6.4. 

Game #2: vs Fortuna Sittard (Lost 1-0)

Goal conceded came when defensive line stepped up and left midfielder open to score. All attacking players were covered, but MC was clear. Again, 13 missed shots, most over the bar from outside the area/at a tight angle. Striker got 6.4, player sent off again for two yellows.

Game #3 vs FC Volendam (lost 2-1)

First goal conceded was on 1 minute, again a long ball over the top, shredding the defence. I then moved to use Counter to try and negate. I also moved down the closing down and added stand off, so I wouldn't lose a player to a red. Balls were being smashed out of defence, despite 'Play Out of Defence' on. Only one defender with Composure above 10, so I tried to shorten the passing, however it seemed that even more long balls were being smashed by all players. Second goal was conceded by SV holding onto ball too long on near touchline, about 5 yards inside opposition half. They countered and scored. 5 missed shots this game, ALL over the bar from the edge of the area, despite 'Work Into Box' added on 15 mins.

 

Every game had OI's on the opposition striker and wingers, with Game 3 on the AMC too. I love the idea, and I have your framework, I'm just trying to make it come together.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Deisler26

[GunmaN1905]

I've finally managed to get gret results and more importantly, good playstyle with 4-2-3-1.

Fullbacks have get further forward, stay wider and run wide with the ball instructions.
MCs have shoot less often and 3 attacking midfielders have close down more. Same for striker.
I've been creating lots of chances and not giving away many to opposition.

EXCEPT FOR THE DAMN SET PIECES WHICH ARE OBVIOUSLY BUGGED.
Against Lazio I conceded twice from wide free kicks in the last 10 minutes. Against Frosinone same thing, two free kicks.
Against Bayern and Sevilla I conceded +25m long shots in the stoppage time.
Only real loss was the Napoli game, but I had a red card and penalty against me early on.

I've written about it in the general feedback thread, here's a screenshot and the setup.

Spoiler

 

That's a free kick for the opposition:
My instructions are:
2 form the wall
1 stays forward
3 man mark (two central defenders and the defensive midfielder with good marking/heading attributes)
4 go back

3 players that are supposed to man mark are more or less doing so and that's fine.
But what the hell are these other 4 players doing?
Those two that are basically in each other at the near post?
One of them being the first man to clear the ball if the cross is short is fine.
But why 3 people there?
While there's 5v2 on the far post?
I don't want to put my fullbacks or the other midfielder on man mark duty because there's no option to mark tall player and it would probably cause mismatches because they're relatively bad in air.
There's also no option to put them on front/mid/far post like in corner routines.

Or it's fine that "go back" duty just makes them stand in random spots within the area.

 

I've also tried changing that to everyone man marking or leaving everything on default, but nothing helps at all. Every game stuff like that happens.

[Cleon]

I'd never use OI's they're the devil and alter the way my systems would play. Normally my tactics are set up to play a specific way that's why normally TI's and PI's are at a minimum and the main reason I'd not use OI's. Because it changes the behaviours Ive already created. I'm not saying others shouldn't use OI's but for me I never use them.

Quote

Game #1: vs FC Oss (Drew 1-1)

The goal conceded came from a long ball that shredded my defence and striker scored an easy 1v1. Lots of shots from the edge of the area over the bar (10 missed shots). That to me, suggests either a lack of composure or too high a tempo. I have copied your formation list, so it's not the tempo. Lack of composure is a possible, half the shots missed were by players with less than 9 composure. Player was sent off for two yellows, something that rarely happens when I try my own tactics (I'm not blaming the tactic, I'm saying I didn't react to the yellow quick enough). Striker got 6.4. 

Or maybe it was a opposition defending deep issue? Or tactical familiarity not yet full for all players. Maybe one of the important parts of the jigsaw had a bad game or was marked and not able to do what you need him to do?

Myself if I saw these issues happen I'd have attempted to fix them earlier, I wouldn't have let 10 shots go over the bar. I'd have reacted quicker. Maybe this is another issue.

Quote

Game #2: vs Fortuna Sittard (Lost 1-0)

Goal conceded came when defensive line stepped up and left midfielder open to score. All attacking players were covered, but MC was clear. Again, 13 missed shots, most over the bar from outside the area/at a tight angle. Striker got 6.4, player sent off again for two yellows.

Again you saw the same things happening that happened in game 1 and allowed it? 

Quote

First goal conceded was on 1 minute, again a long ball over the top, shredding the defence. I then moved to use Counter to try and negate. I also moved down the closing down and added stand off, so I wouldn't lose a player to a red. Balls were being smashed out of defence, despite 'Play Out of Defence' on. Only one defender with Composure above 10, so I tried to shorten the passing, however it seemed that even more long balls were being smashed by all players. Second goal was conceded by SV holding onto ball too long on near touchline, about 5 yards inside opposition half. They countered and scored. 5 missed shots this game, ALL over the bar from the edge of the area, despite 'Work Into Box' added on 15 mins.

Hang on, you get a long ball over the top and they score and the first thought was 'Hey I know what, I'll change the whole mentality structure'? Why not just change the defensive line? That would have been my first instinct. I'd have not changed the strategy for something so little like a ball over the top.

Smashing the ball forward isn't surprising as you went deeper and sat back meaning the gap between defence and the front would be greater than usual.

Quote

 I love the idea, and I have your framework, I'm just trying to make it come together.

This is your issue. You've took my ideas and framework and trying to make it fit for you. For that to work you'd have to make the same decisions I make, know when to react when I would and so on. You're taking something that I do and trying to apply it to your save when we are probably different types of managers with different understandings and view the game very different.

Instead why didn't you create your own framework with the principles in this thread rather than playing it as me? Surely that would be better. If you had a new suit made you wouldn't ask the tailor to give you the same measurements as the last bloke he measured would you because its been tailored for a specific individual for a certain type of fit. Tactics are the same. You can't use the same framework as someone else who has set up to play a specific way and expect the same results. It's the same in real life football too.

[Deisler26]

5 minutes ago, Cleon said:

This is your issue. You've took my ideas and framework and trying to make it fit for you. For that to work you'd have to make the same decisions I make, know when to react when I would and so on. You're taking something that I do and trying to apply it to your save when we are probably different types of managers with different understandings and view the game very different.

Instead why didn't you create your own framework with the principles in this thread rather than playing it as me? Surely that would be better. If you had a new suit made you wouldn't ask the tailor to give you the same measurements as the last bloke he measured would you because its been tailored for a specific individual for a certain type of fit. Tactics are the same. You can't use the same framework as someone else who has set up to play a specific way and expect the same results. It's the same in real life football too.

The downfall of de Boer & Koeman 

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, Deisler26 said:

The downfall of de Boer & Koeman 

haha perfect examples 

[Guest El Payaso]

5 hours ago, Cleon said:

The deep version loses nothing if you set it up correctly, the only difference is the defensive stability you gain. Shifting forward slow is down to using the incorrect roles or duties and having players no able to transition properly, that's the only time things should be slow. 

Agree on defensive stability and I certainly have never been good with the FM tactics anyway. I only tested this one for one friendly match and managed to get maybe one good decent break with Las Palmas. 

As the formation was so down heavy I wanted to use a fluid system with control mentality with mixed passing but using play out of defense so that we wouldn't be rushing the ball forward that rapidly. After all the idea of creating breaks is not to rely the whole 90 minutes for this one trick. 

The roles and players were the following:

GK: GK (Chichizola) 

DL: FB(A) Castellano

DC: CD(D) Pigas

DC: BPD(D) Lemos

DR: FB(S) Michel

DML: DM(D) Castellano

DMR: Mez(S) Samper

ML: WM(S) Vitolo

MC: CM(A) Viera

MR: WGR(A) Halilovic

ST: CF(S) Calleri

I didn't add any other PIs but for the keeper to distribute quickly and Vitolo to get further forward. We looked good on slow tempo but quick breaks were gone almost completely even though we were facing about same level opponent in Maritimo. Couple of times we got the ball to the striker as I wished and he was waiting for quick support but most of my players, even the ones with attacking duty just jogged or walked towards him. The striker could hold on to the ball and we looked good in slow tempo attacks but never seemed to have interest to break.

I would claim that the problems with my team are that we might not necessarily have the best possible players especially in terms of Mezzala and maybe even in terms of winning the ball back effectively. What I also could try is maybe using structured instead of fluid which could create more gaps between the midfielders so that we would possible be more separated when we can break and especially Viera and Halilovic could be more aggressive.

Do you have any advice on this or examples of your deep 4-2-3-1 breaking quickly?  

[isignedupfornorealreason]

6 hours ago, Cleon said:

There isn't one. The Segundo Volante is like no other role on the game.

Darn, I will have to wait until I pick up the game to have a go with that little role then! :O 

[tyro]

Great post. The 4231 is used so much, maybe lately not as much as a couple of years ago because of the 3 defender tactics and 442 tactics making a come back but still so many teams seem to use it.

I had never realized that the real life teams set it up much deeper than it is shown in FM. In FM in previous years it was also difficult to set up as deep because the players were not accomplished or familiar at DM but only at MC, so it "forced" players unfamiliar with this (including me) to play a very top heavy 4231.

I have used the 4231 (deep) with DMs a lot previously but it never occurred to me to move the AML/C/R player to ML/C/R. That is actually a very good starting set up and leaves you enough space up front to move into.

Some things are right in front of you but you can't see it.

 

[saftmfc]

19 minutes ago, tyro said:

Great post. The 4231 is used so much, maybe lately not as much as a couple of years ago because of the 3 defender tactics and 442 tactics making a come back but still so many teams seem to use it.

I had never realized that the real life teams set it up much deeper than it is shown in FM. In FM in previous years it was also difficult to set up as deep because the players were not accomplished or familiar at DM but only at MC, so it "forced" players unfamiliar with this (including me) to play a very top heavy 4231.

I have used the 4231 (deep) with DMs a lot previously but it never occurred to me to move the AML/C/R player to ML/C/R. That is actually a very good starting set up and leaves you enough space up front to move into.

Some things are right in front of you but you can't see it.

 

I had a quick dabble in with ML/C/R against Chelsea hoping i'd be able to counter more effectively , I got destroyed down my left by Hazard and created nothing

 

[TokyoWanderer]

3 hours ago, Deisler26 said:

First goal conceded was on 1 minute, again a long ball over the top, shredding the defence.

I've been having this issue as well. I believe it's not the tactic, it's defenders reacting incredibly slowly on long balls. They also misjudge the ball trajectory by shocking margins.

At least in my case, if you have a poacher, any random hoofing of the ball can create a 1v1 because of these issues.

It doesn't help that when you have possession of the ball, CBs move forward towards the half of the pitch(no matter how defensive your tactic is), which leaves room behind for a long ball when the opposition regains possession. 

[herne79]

4 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said:

I've also tried changing that to everyone man marking or leaving everything on default, but nothing helps at all. Every game stuff like that happens.

This is Beta.  You have to expect dodgey things happening, but the best way to deal with it is to raise it as a Bug in the Match Engine Issues forum along with the pkms of matches and giving SI the timings of issues.  It's worth doing this even if it's already been raised as a Bug (try to use the same thread if it has been) because the more examples of it that SI have the better.

[herne79]

36 minutes ago, kidd_05_u2 said:

I've been having this issue as well. I believe it's not the tactic, it's defenders reacting incredibly slowly on long balls. They also misjudge the ball trajectory by shocking margins.

If you are simply copying the tactic then that'll be your problem.  @Cleon is writing this article not to share a tactical system but to discuss the principles involved to help better your understanding of the game.  It's also not yet complete with much more information still to come.

Also, if you believe there is a problem with the Match Engine, please do raise it in the FM18 Beta ME Issues forum with pkms of matches + timings of when you notice the issue.

[TokyoWanderer]

9 minutes ago, herne79 said:

If you are simply copying the tactic then that'll be your problem.  @Cleon is writing this article not to share a tactical system but to discuss the principles involved to help better your understanding of the game.  It's also not yet complete with much more information still to come.

Also, if you believe there is a problem with the Match Engine, please do raise it in the FM18 Beta ME Issues forum with pkms of matches + timings of when you notice the issue.

I'm not copying the tactic. I believe it's buggy behaviour but haven't had time to raise the issue yet (compiling the pkms is a pain).

Anyway, don't want to spam cleon's thread anymore with this. Just thought I would comment on the issue deisler mentioned.

Edited November 3, 2017 by kidd_05_u2

[jc577]

I'm playing as Man United and I'm struggling somewhat with my 4-2-3-1.. started off well but the past three games have been dismal. I'm not sure how much of it is related to: tactics, morale or my players generally not having much confidence in me. Anyway, the idea behind my tactic was fast transitions and quick counter attacks, just direct attacking football which makes use of the pace I have in the team. I want verticality not just hoofing the ball for the sake of it. The main issues i've noticed are: we give up too much space in front of our CB's, and our two DM's are usually running back towards the goal. From an attacking perspective there seems to be a disconnect between midfield/attack. I've toyed with making Mata an AP-S which seemed to improve things, but then my striker became isolated. Any ideas?

[martplfc1]

Getting destroyed away from home using this tactic @Cleon

Long balls catching out the high line. Conceded 6 v Spartak Moscow and currently 3-0 down against Legia Warsaw.

[herne79]

32 minutes ago, martplfc1 said:

Getting destroyed away from home using this tactic @Cleon

Long balls catching out the high line. Conceded 6 v Spartak Moscow and currently 3-0 down against Legia Warsaw.

Cleon hasn't created a tactic for you to copy.  The whole purpose of the thread (in fact any article that Cleon writes) is to get across the principles of play to help us create our own systems.

[Taipan]

ahh, the 4-2-3-1 !! Still my favourite formation after the 4-4-2  

Always nice reading one of your thread's Cleon. Love reading the diamonds you and Rash keep churning out year after year. 

 

 

 

[Cleon]

It's strange seeing people copy the tactic when all I did was share the idea of how it should work and provided no analysis parts yet and people wonder why they're having issues etc 

[Deisler26]

3 minutes ago, Cleon said:

It's strange seeing people copy the tactic when all I did was share the idea of how it should work and provided no analysis parts yet and people wonder why they're having issues etc 

I think it's because you use an SV and a lot of people, knowing your tactical genius, want to use one but have zero idea how it fits in....

()

Edited November 4, 2017 by Deisler26

[jc577]

10 hours ago, jc577 said:

I'm playing as Man United and I'm struggling somewhat with my 4-2-3-1.. started off well but the past three games have been dismal. I'm not sure how much of it is related to: tactics, morale or my players generally not having much confidence in me. Anyway, the idea behind my tactic was fast transitions and quick counter attacks, just direct attacking football which makes use of the pace I have in the team. I want verticality not just hoofing the ball for the sake of it. The main issues i've noticed are: we give up too much space in front of our CB's, and our two DM's are usually running back towards the goal. From an attacking perspective there seems to be a disconnect between midfield/attack. I've toyed with making Mata an AP-S which seemed to improve things, but then my striker became isolated. Any ideas?

@Cleon 

[Cleon]

Just now, jc577 said:

@Cleon 

Well I spoke about your issues in the opening posts. You have 3 attack duties in the final third. 3 of your 4 players in the final third offer nothing in the initial build up, the AP will only be involved high up the pitch. You're fullback are on support and your attacking players are all mainly attacking, there is zero balance. You have no variety and made almost every single mistake I mentioned in the posts so far. You've split the front players and defensive players and make the gaps bigger between them. I'd honestly go back and read the posts at the start. It's like you've not read anything in the thread 

Like I've said all throughout the thread and others I have done, you need to understand how all the roles/duties you use work together. You have to know why you've selected a role and what you expect it to do. Most of this lies in with understanding the game descriptions, they tell you what the roles do and what to expect.

[jc577]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Well I spoke about your issues in the opening posts. You have 3 attack duties in the final third. 3 of your 4 players in the final third offer nothing in the initial build up, the AP will only be involved high up the pitch. You're fullback are on support and your attacking players are all mainly attacking, there is zero balance. You have no variety and made almost every single mistake I mentioned in the posts so far. You've split the front players and defensive players and make the gaps bigger between them. I'd honestly go back and read the posts at the start. It's like you've not read anything in the thread 

Like I've said all throughout the thread and others I have done, you need to understand how all the roles/duties you use work together. You have to know why you've selected a role and what you expect it to do. Most of this lies in with understanding the game descriptions, they tell you what the roles do and what to expect.

Brutally honest, I love it  will give the thread a re-read and go back to the drawing board 

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Brutally honest, I love it  will give the thread a re-read and go back to the drawing board 

Sorry about that but its the best way, no point sugar coating it 

If you notice in every thread myself, @Rashidi @herne79 and @themadsheep2001 post in when someone is having issues, we always focus on who is expected to score the goals, who provides these players  the ball, who offer support and so on. We do that not to be arses but because its the most important factors and you have to build around that. So once you know who is expected to score then fitting the roles around that should come quite easy as a lot of them won't offer the kind of support or balls the player needs to be able to score.

[martplfc1]

14 hours ago, herne79 said:

Cleon hasn't created a tactic for you to copy.  The whole purpose of the thread (in fact any article that Cleon writes) is to get across the principles of play to help us create our own systems.

And I was simply trying it out and feeding back. 

[zinedinezidane10]

What I really love about this is that you touch upon how deceiving the tactics screen actually can be. I feel like it causes a lot more problems than it probably should. Great post

[pizarro]

Do you use any specific gameplans?

 

[ypsi]

Hi Cleon, 

I'm not having too many issues playing a 4-2-3-1 when I'm going for a possession based tactic. I've recently attempted to set up as a 4-2-3-1 but play on the counter, but I cannot get it to work. 

Is it possible to play a counter attacking strategy in this formation? I know the short answer is yes. But would I be much better off changing the shape to have more players naturally further back and am I making it hard for myself trying to play like this with the current shape?

Edited November 5, 2017 by ypsi

[thomas166]

Had pretty good success so far using a SV and BBM for my central midfield partnership so far, not usually a fan of asymmetric tactics but it's got me to top of the league 

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, thomas166 said:

Had pretty good success so far using a SV and BBM for my central midfield partnership so far, not usually a fan of asymmetric tactics but it's got me to top of the league 

Who's tactic you on about? The one in the opening post isn't asymmetric. 

4 hours ago, ypsi said:

Hi Cleon, 

I'm not having too many issues playing a 4-2-3-1 when I'm going for a possession based tactic. I've recently attempted to set up as a 4-2-3-1 but play on the counter, but I cannot get it to work. 

Is it possible to play a counter attacking strategy in this formation? I know the short answer is yes. But would I be much better off changing the shape to have more players naturally further back and am I making it hard for myself trying to play like this with the current shape?

My short answer would be no as you have too many players forward. However you can create a direct attacking approach which is similar. If you wanted to play natural counter attacking you wouldn't use this shape at all imo. I outlined at the start of the thread what the strengths and weaknesses are, this should give you a general idea of how you can fit it into a specific style.

22 hours ago, pizarro said:

Do you use any specific gameplans?

 

I've stated in the thread I'm not using it yet I'm waiting until the game is actually released before I write and analyse stuff as its pointless before writing about it.

[ypsi]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

Who's tactic you on about? The one in the opening post isn't asymmetric. 

My short answer would be no as you have too many players forward. However you can create a direct attacking approach which is similar. If you wanted to play natural counter attacking you wouldn't use this shape at all imo. I outlined at the start of the thread what the strengths and weaknesses are, this should give you a general idea of how you can fit it into a specific style.

I've stated in the thread I'm not using it yet I'm waiting until the game is actually released before I write and analyse stuff as its pointless before writing about it.

Thanks, that's as I thought. I did not think about creating a direct attacking approach, which is probably more suited anyway. I'm currently in a save with Liverpool looking to get the most out of Mane and Salah. Thanks for your reply.

[thomas166]

6 hours ago, Cleon said:

Who's tactic you on about? The one in the opening post isn't asymmetric. 

I've adapted the 4-2-3-1 to be asymmetric based on my teams needs, technically i guess its a 4-1-1-3-1