The 4231 Explained

[rjm95]

Will be following this as I am attempting to create a 4-2-3-1 with Sevilla. I have a few questions though. 

Why did you use a SV instead of a DLP?

How come there are support duties for the holding player that will shield the defence? is this because you have two DMs in front of a back 4 meaning they will shield the defence by default due to being positioned there?

Is it possible to use an Advanced Forward in a 4-2-3-1 providing you get the roles right around him, Or is it simply down to the fact that role in particular isn't optimal for the formation as a whole?

 

[Cleon]

Just now, rjm95 said:

Will be following this as I am attempting to create a 4-2-3-1 with Sevilla. I have a few questions though. 

Why did you use a SV instead of a DLP?

How come there are support duties for the holding player that will shield the defence? is this because you have two DMs in front of a back 4 meaning they will shield the defence by default due to being positioned there?

Is it possible to use an Advanced Forward in a 4-2-3-1 providing you get the roles right around him, Or is it simply down to the fact that role in particular isn't optimal for the formation as a whole?

 

It'll become more clear when I do the analysis and comparisons. However I used a SV because I need someone who still plays like a MC and will venture further forward and offer support. A DLP wouldn't do that.

The support duty is because while he is shielding the defence, I feel a defensive duty will make him too deep and disjointed from the other DMC. I want them playing as a team. Plus I want them to shield the defence yet win the ball in the early parts of my own half.

And yes you can use any role you wish if you get the balance right.

[rjm95]

Just now, Cleon said:

It'll become more clear when I do the analysis and comparisons. However I used a SV because I need someone who still plays like a MC and will venture further forward and offer support. A DLP wouldn't do that.

The support duty is because while he is shielding the defence, I feel a defensive duty will make him too deep and disjointed from the other DMC. I want them playing as a team. Plus I want them to shield the defence yet win the ball in the early parts of my own half.

And yes you can use any role you wish if you get the balance right.

That makes sense, so the support duties and SV are picked because they make sense in relation to the style of play you want with the tactic?

[Cleon]

4 minutes ago, rjm95 said:

That makes sense, so the support duties and SV are picked because they make sense in relation to the style of play you want with the tactic?

Not the style as such, but for what I want to the players to do and for what I expect of them then yes. It's all about them playing as a team. Might be quite hard to see what I mean until I add examples though and give it all some visual context. But the idea behind everything is substance over an actual style so far. 

[herne79]

@Cleon If you keep this up I'm going to have to break the habit of a lifetime and get a Twitter account just so I can follow you and be notified when you post new articles  

Personally I favour the "fully deep" 4231 which uses MC/L/R positions instead of AMC/L/R as a counter attacking formation so interested to see how this "half deep" 4231 (if I can term it like that) balances out in play.  Looking forward to the next posts .

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

@Cleon If you keep this up I'm going to have to break the habit of a lifetime and get a Twitter account just so I can follow you and be notified when you post new articles  

Personally I favour the "fully deep" 4231 which uses MC/L/R positions instead of AMC/L/R as a counter attacking formation so interested to see how this "half deep" 4231 (if I can term it like that) balances out in play.  Looking forward to the next posts .

If you follow my blog you get notified by email

If I'm being totally honest the fully deep version is also my favourite one but thought I'd meet in the middle for the sake of the article. I'm really excited for sharing the analysis parts when I finish them off though as I think they're great I've really enjoyed writing them so far along with the comparison articles. Really thought provoking stuff I feel. I'll not spoil the articles but even I had a 'wow didn't realise that' moment writing it based on what just happened, it was rather weird but in a good way 

[callamity]

48 minutes ago, Cleon said:

If you follow my blog you get notified by email

If I'm being totally honest the fully deep version is also my favourite one but thought I'd meet in the middle for the sake of the article. I'm really excited for sharing the analysis parts when I finish them off though as I think they're great I've really enjoyed writing them so far along with the comparison articles. Really thought provoking stuff I feel. I'll not spoil the articles but even I had a 'wow didn't realise that' moment writing it based on what just happened, it was rather weird but in a good way 

That enthusiasm is inspired

[eyalf83]

Hi @Cleon,

Great post and great thinking behind it.

Please, I want to ask you some Q:

1. The "Segundo Volante" won't run into the AMC way?

2. Pressing too much won't break the team structure?

3. Pressing too much and too high, won't leave you too open VS similar reputation club?

[Cleon]

1. He should work in conjunction with the IF and the AMC and move into space that the AMC has just vacated.

2. It shouldn't do. Although I am pressing, it's all still relative to the mentality I'm using.

3. It would depend on the formations I face I guess. I don't think it would be an issue at all though.

Once the analysis is posted you'll see

[kpsia518]

Quote

“What is defending? … Defending is a matter of – ‘How much space should I defend?’ … Everything is about meters, that’s all”.

– Johan Cruyff

Can Anyone Explain This ?

not quite understand.

[Cleon]

3 minutes ago, kpsia518 said:

Can Anyone Explain This ?

not quite understand.

Read this

http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/05/08/tactical-theory-compactness/

[A.Pierfrancesco]

I ain't got time to play the beta at the moment but I would like to know if the SV in Attack would play like a RPM when in possession or he will be more "goal oriented" due to higher mentality. For what I've understood it seems to me like a RPM "on steroid" that when out of possession stay deep to protect the defense while when in possession he acts like a RPM/CM-A.

[Ji-Sung Park]

Cleon #1

I need to start a save with a 4-2-3-1 now, I'm sold.

[Cleon]

21 minutes ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

I ain't got time to play the beta at the moment but I would like to know if the SV in Attack would play like a RPM when in possession or he will be more "goal oriented" due to higher mentality. For what I've understood it seems to me like a RPM "on steroid" that when out of possession stay deep to protect the defense while when in possession he acts like a RPM/CM-A.

He is nothing like a RPM at all. He's more like a deep box to box player but offering so much more. He should score a decent amount and grab a fair few assists too during a season. He does everything. It's almost like a complete midfielder role. In attacking phases he's 'unrestricted' as such and involved in every single aspect. The downside to this is they can tire quickly and it requires someone with a great engine.

[tajj7]

Just on the Volante, has anyone got examples in game that have the stats for it? 

[Mark H]

So Pogba at Man Utd I feel would be a great SV. But he isn't fully suited to it, and doesn't look fully compliant in a roll that puts his position on the pitch in what is a DM area.

Should I worry about that? Should I play him anyway?

[mikcheck]

I haven't played FM18 yet but from what i've read from the role explanations, i believe that both positioning and off the ball are important, as well as some work rate, vision, passing and stamina.

Edited November 2, 2017 by mikcheck

[Ji-Sung Park]

58 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Just on the Volante, has anyone got examples in game that have the stats for it? 

Turns out that Seb Rode of Dortmund makes a decent SV, but there are plenty of players with better offensive/attacking attributes as I believe the SV in the game would need.

Taken into account that the segundo volante as we know it IRL is more of a Brazilian thing, hence the name, I'd find someone in the Hernanes anno 2014 mold and go from there.

[tajj7]

I've actually just noticed Emre Can is well suited to it.  it's a very complete position, the players basically need to be good at everything according to the stats highlight for it. 

[saftmfc]

Nainggolan looks the perfect option

 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Mark H said:

So Pogba at Man Utd I feel would be a great SV. But he isn't fully suited to it, and doesn't look fully compliant in a roll that puts his position on the pitch in what is a DM area.

Should I worry about that? Should I play him anyway?

I'd play him anyway. You also have Herrera 

[Guest El Payaso]

Excellent once again Cleon. 

4-2-3-1 is actually something that I am looking to get into with my Las Palmas save and I will most definitely be using the one with 2 DMs ML/MR and MC as I've both been told to have lots of possession and to be attacking but as the style of manager I really am on FM I simply cannot compromise on my defensive shape. Cannot even use 4-5-1 with AMLR.  

Along with a solid base this system will also let me dip into the new player roles that FM introduced this year. Really excited to try something new and I bet that I will struggle with this as haven't really been able to make a 4-4-1-1 work with Athletic Bilbao for years even though it used to be my favorite formations. 

The thing that worries about me with this system is 'shifting forward' as for example with 4-1-4-1 the problem seems to be that the team tends to be to eager to play the ball to the forward even when they have easy options also and this doesn't seem to 'trigger' the rest of the team to shift forward aggressively. On slow tempo attacks (that I don't enjoy that much) the team is working better and the deeper players join but on quick breaks it all seems a bit of a mess even with three attacking duties in the midfield. So in terms of shifting forward quickly I would boldly claim that the deep version loses even clearly to the regular 4-2-3-1.

I think though that the shifting forward issue will fix itself if the specific marking will get sorted out and you can drop the striker to midfield when defending or more logically if SI decides to fix the strikers' defensive positioning. 

[themadsheep2001]

Love a 4-2-3-1 deep, and been waiting for the Volante for so long. Set up is pretty similar, though I've gone for the shadow striker/complete forward support combination. 

[saftmfc]

How important is position familiarity I know (well think) roles don't really matter?

Say I want to put the AML/AMR to ML and MR in a 4-2-3-1 but the player I want to drop is a complete unnatural in there, how badly will his performance suffer? even if he's a leading premier league player like Salah for example

 

[warlock]

3 minutes ago, saftmfc said:

Say I want to put the AML/AMR to ML and MR in a 4-2-3-1 but the player I want to drop is a complete unnatural in there, how badly will his performance suffer? even if he's a leading premier league player like Salah for example

 

If he has the attributes to play the role you can play him. I was hoping the Role/Duty Suitability thing might disappear this year - it locks too many players (me included much of the time) into worrying about it unnecessarily. For example, I've been playing Ander Herrera as a WM on the right (sort of the Beckham role pinging in crosses) and the RDS gives him half a red star. But he's been PoM several times and regularly gets 8-plus ratings because his attributes (crossing and vision) are perfect for the role.

[Mark H]

1 hour ago, warlock said:

If he has the attributes to play the role you can play him. I was hoping the Role/Duty Suitability thing might disappear this year - it locks too many players (me included much of the time) into worrying about it unnecessarily. For example, I've been playing Ander Herrera as a WM on the right (sort of the Beckham role pinging in crosses) and the RDS gives him half a red star. But he's been PoM several times and regularly gets 8-plus ratings because his attributes (crossing and vision) are perfect for the role.

 

THIS! Massively. I feel playing Pogba in the DM part of the pitch is wrong, however I think he fits the SV option from that area. Again, I want Rashford as an IF from that position, but really, I want him to start deeper from the ML position but it come's up as unnatural 

[Bigpapa42]

Bravo, Cleon. Great article once again. And quite timely, After having some fun and success with a 4-2-2-2 Brazilian Box on FM17 (inspired by an article you did as well), I have gone back to my trusty 4-1-4-1 for FM18. I had toyed with the idea of pulling a central midfielder back into the DM spot to have a deep 4-2-3-1, mainly because I want to try the Segundo Volante role. My main concern is whether the clubs I tend to use have players capable of doing it effectively enough. But won't know unless I try. Already started mulling the ideal role for the single MC, but its going to take some experimentation.

[Mark H]

So. From what I've read from @Cleon post and absolutely fantastic advice is the following, for a basic formation for a strong team. I have no PIs apart from asking the keeper to distribute to the FBs. Are my TIs ok, do they make sense together with the mentality and shape?

 

 

Also, a quick word on Tea and Busquets. Its a great site, and you should all follow

[isignedupfornorealreason]

7 hours ago, Cleon said:

He is nothing like a RPM at all. He's more like a deep box to box player but offering so much more. He should score a decent amount and grab a fair few assists too during a season. He does everything. It's almost like a complete midfielder role. In attacking phases he's 'unrestricted' as such and involved in every single aspect. The downside to this is they can tire quickly and it requires someone with a great engine.

Unavailable in the CM slot? I don't have 18, so, would the nearest similar role in CM be a box to box midfielder? Or rather, this might be the better question, what is the 'complete' midfielder role for the CM slot?

[SmashtonGate84]

This has been a great read so far, it's been almost 10 years since I have played FM, looking at my Steam account 08 was the last copy and I gave up as I always struggled with tactics, prior to that was a keen CM user and fan. 

Using the 18 beta and keen to invest the time into the tactics and really understand them more, so this initial guide has been awesome and I need to start reading your blog. Cheers 

[YouGotNoFans]

Hi Cleon/BustTheNet,

Long time reader of both of your advice and guidance. I've also just subscribed to BustTheNet on Patreon and his book is brilliant for explaining Football Manager tactics and the match engine. I strongly urge anyone and everyone to check it out. 

I'm currently playing as Napoli and am unbeaten after 22 games, winning 18 and drawing 4. I've also been really solid at the back only conceding 7 goals, but my problem is my team don't score enough goals.

Here is my formation and TI's, which only change if I go behind or am desperately chasing a game. I've recently changed the mentality of my fullbacks too after reading BustTheNet's book. Is it a case where the 4231 is really hard to set up correctly, or should I persevere if I want to play more exciting and goalscoring football? I've played around with different roles, but I think I'm going to have to watch a couple of full games again to really understand where I'm going wrong. 

Thank you for all your help over the years. 

 

 

 

[Mark H]

I think by adding a Roaming Playmaker instead of DLP will give the midfield more thrust, or drop him to the DM position as a SV. Same with the DM, if you drop him back you might have more defensive assurance but alongside a more dynamic player you might get more going forward..

I may be wrong, just my 2 cents, I'm still getting a lot wrong

Edited November 2, 2017 by Mark H

[StefanoPT]

And how would you go about the deep version? I understand that the midfield line needs to all be attacking or you need a fluid/more fluid shape for the midfield to connect with the attack, am I right? I'm trying ti now but my team can't create and will always pump the ball into somewhere... If I put shorter passing I understand it will give them time to get up the pitch but then wouldn't it create little to no space? 

Edit this is what I've been working with. My CM has the instruction to get further forward and all my players have shot less often. My in game stats will be something like 20 shots, 5 on target. I just don't create/have space to create dangerous situations

Edited November 2, 2017 by StefanoPT

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, YouGotNoFans said:

Hi Cleon/BustTheNet,

Long time reader of both of your advice and guidance. I've also just subscribed to BustTheNet on Patreon and his book is brilliant for explaining Football Manager tactics and the match engine. I strongly urge anyone and everyone to check it out. 

I'm currently playing as Napoli and am unbeaten after 22 games, winning 18 and drawing 4. I've also been really solid at the back only conceding 7 goals, but my problem is my team don't score enough goals.

Here is my formation and TI's, which only change if I go behind or am desperately chasing a game. I've recently changed the mentality of my fullbacks too after reading BustTheNet's book. Is it a case where the 4231 is really hard to set up correctly, or should I persevere if I want to play more exciting and goalscoring football? I've played around with different roles, but I think I'm going to have to watch a couple of full games again to really understand where I'm going wrong. 

Thank you for all your help over the years. 

 

 

 

My first question: who is meant to be scoring?

Sounds obvious, but that's the first part 

[YouGotNoFans]

7 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

My first question: who is meant to be scoring?

Sounds obvious, but that's the first part 

Just realised my Inside Forward and AM (A) should both be on attack. I expect to score through my Inside Forward, AM, and Deep Lying Forward. 

[Cleon]

19 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Excellent once again Cleon. 

4-2-3-1 is actually something that I am looking to get into with my Las Palmas save and I will most definitely be using the one with 2 DMs ML/MR and MC as I've both been told to have lots of possession and to be attacking but as the style of manager I really am on FM I simply cannot compromise on my defensive shape. Cannot even use 4-5-1 with AMLR.  

Along with a solid base this system will also let me dip into the new player roles that FM introduced this year. Really excited to try something new and I bet that I will struggle with this as haven't really been able to make a 4-4-1-1 work with Athletic Bilbao for years even though it used to be my favorite formations. 

The thing that worries about me with this system is 'shifting forward' as for example with 4-1-4-1 the problem seems to be that the team tends to be to eager to play the ball to the forward even when they have easy options also and this doesn't seem to 'trigger' the rest of the team to shift forward aggressively. On slow tempo attacks (that I don't enjoy that much) the team is working better and the deeper players join but on quick breaks it all seems a bit of a mess even with three attacking duties in the midfield. So in terms of shifting forward quickly I would boldly claim that the deep version loses even clearly to the regular 4-2-3-1.

I think though that the shifting forward issue will fix itself if the specific marking will get sorted out and you can drop the striker to midfield when defending or more logically if SI decides to fix the strikers' defensive positioning. 

The deep version loses nothing if you set it up correctly, the only difference is the defensive stability you gain. Shifting forward slow is down to using the incorrect roles or duties and having players no able to transition properly, that's the only time things should be slow. 

18 hours ago, saftmfc said:

How important is position familiarity I know (well think) roles don't really matter?

Say I want to put the AML/AMR to ML and MR in a 4-2-3-1 but the player I want to drop is a complete unnatural in there, how badly will his performance suffer? even if he's a leading premier league player like Salah for example

 

Just play the player who has the attributes for what you want from the role. That's how I play.

16 hours ago, Bigpapa42 said:

Bravo, Cleon. Great article once again. And quite timely, After having some fun and success with a 4-2-2-2 Brazilian Box on FM17 (inspired by an article you did as well), I have gone back to my trusty 4-1-4-1 for FM18. I had toyed with the idea of pulling a central midfielder back into the DM spot to have a deep 4-2-3-1, mainly because I want to try the Segundo Volante role. My main concern is whether the clubs I tend to use have players capable of doing it effectively enough. But won't know unless I try. Already started mulling the ideal role for the single MC, but its going to take some experimentation.

Thanks   Experimenting is fun. 

16 hours ago, Mark H said:

So. From what I've read from @Cleon post and absolutely fantastic advice is the following, for a basic formation for a strong team. I have no PIs apart from asking the keeper to distribute to the FBs. Are my TIs ok, do they make sense together with the mentality and shape?

 

 

Also, a quick word on Tea and Busquets. Its a great site, and you should all follow

First, why so many TI's? What's the reasoning behind using them?

Secondly it seems you basically used my set up and changed it ever so slightly without understanding how it will all play out? Again though, how do you see it all working out? I posted above in the opening posts why I chose something and explained how it should work. So what's the reasoning's behind yours?

14 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Unavailable in the CM slot? I don't have 18, so, would the nearest similar role in CM be a box to box midfielder? Or rather, this might be the better question, what is the 'complete' midfielder role for the CM slot?

There isn't one. The Segundo Volante is like no other role on the game.

9 hours ago, SmashtonGate84 said:

This has been a great read so far, it's been almost 10 years since I have played FM, looking at my Steam account 08 was the last copy and I gave up as I always struggled with tactics, prior to that was a keen CM user and fan. 

Using the 18 beta and keen to invest the time into the tactics and really understand them more, so this initial guide has been awesome and I need to start reading your blog. Cheers 

Thanks

9 hours ago, YouGotNoFans said:

Hi Cleon/BustTheNet,

Long time reader of both of your advice and guidance. I've also just subscribed to BustTheNet on Patreon and his book is brilliant for explaining Football Manager tactics and the match engine. I strongly urge anyone and everyone to check it out. 

I'm currently playing as Napoli and am unbeaten after 22 games, winning 18 and drawing 4. I've also been really solid at the back only conceding 7 goals, but my problem is my team don't score enough goals.

Here is my formation and TI's, which only change if I go behind or am desperately chasing a game. I've recently changed the mentality of my fullbacks too after reading BustTheNet's book. Is it a case where the 4231 is really hard to set up correctly, or should I persevere if I want to play more exciting and goalscoring football? I've played around with different roles, but I think I'm going to have to watch a couple of full games again to really understand where I'm going wrong. 

Thank you for all your help over the years. 

 

 

 

You've not really mentioned anything we can help with, you've spoke in a very general term stating you don't score enough goals and how you've changed roles but still the same. However you could focus on the 'why' more. If you watch the build up of an attack, what kind of positions are the players taking up? Is the lack of goals a penetration issue? Lack of creativity issue? Lack of movement? Lack of creating space? Lots of different reasons as to why you might not be scoring. If it was me I'd focus on the creating space and movement side of things first though as 90% of the time the answer lies somewhere between these two factors.

@themadsheep2001 is correct to ask who is supposed to be scoring the goals.

8 hours ago, StefanoPT said:

And how would you go about the deep version? I understand that the midfield line needs to all be attacking or you need a fluid/more fluid shape for the midfield to connect with the attack, am I right? I'm trying ti now but my team can't create and will always pump the ball into somewhere... If I put shorter passing I understand it will give them time to get up the pitch but then wouldn't it create little to no space? 

Edit this is what I've been working with. My CM has the instruction to get further forward and all my players have shot less often. My in game stats will be something like 20 shots, 5 on target. I just don't create/have space to create dangerous situations

No you're not correct. You don't have to be all attacking or more fluid at all. The key is to use roles that do what you expect the player to do. If you look at your role allocation it should stick out like a sore thumb as to why you struggle to create and just pump the ball long. You have zero penetration centrally or anywhere else for that matter apart from the segundo volante. Who is the AP creating for exactly? Your fullbacks aren't going to score many or be a constant threat in the box and neither is the winger. Who is supporting the striker and stopping him from being isolated?

It shouldn't be a real surprise you have a low shot on target ratio when you look at the roles and focus on what the roles you use actually do.

7 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

My first question: who is meant to be scoring?

Sounds obvious, but that's the first part 

This is where I always start with most tactics, then you just build around it. It's a simple question but a really important one I feel.

[Cleon]

4 minutes ago, YouGotNoFans said:

Just realised my Inside Forward and AM (A) should both be on attack. I expect to score through my Inside Forward, AM, and Deep Lying Forward. 

Okay. So who supplies them the ball? Who creates the space? How exactly do you see those players scoring? What I mean is, in your head, how do all these roles with the duties function together and

1) Use the ball

2) create space

3) Utilise space

I think you suffer the top heavy part I discuss in the opening post and lack movement for most parts.

[Armistice]

When is the next part coming out?

[Cleon]

12 minutes ago, Armistice said:

When is the next part coming out?

Demanding eh?!!! 

I actually don't know, I'll likely wait though until the full release is out so people can't say 'it was done on beta blah blah'. Plus the analysis parts always take the longest as you have to extract all the data from the game and take screenshots, videos and gifs. 

However it also means if I wait until full game I can get the first part of this out;

Quote

It’s been quite some time since I wrote about training in any kind of depth. I think the last time was probably three years ago when I did the Ajax project stuff for FM14 I think it was. Which was some of the best stuff I’ve ever written. So I thought it might be time to revisit training and see what has changed during those three years while at the same time, showing you my own approach to training and how I make the best of it. During the series you can expect to see;

 

 

• Tutoring - I'll explain why I'm tutoring and document any personality changes.

• Player development - I'll be tracking this really closely as I develop all players to be the best they can.

• Re-training - No doubt I'll change a few players positions to suit the tactical framework they'll be playing in. This is a big aspect of the game for me.

• Moulding players - This will focus on creating the types of players I’ll need for how I’ll be playing. I won’t be creating your typical players and will require many different types of players who might play the role within my tactic differently to what you might expect.

• The tactic - I'll mention this but not in great detail, but I'll outline the basics as it'll make it easier to understand why I train players how I do and retrain them. The tactical side of things will be separate (the 4231 stuff I’ve already posted) but it will all link together.

• Staff Choices - This will include hiring and firing and what attributes to look for to get the best out of the players you have.

Which will work along side this thread and be based around this shape. But this time from a recruitment and development angle

[YouGotNoFans]

19 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Okay. So who supplies them the ball? Who creates the space? How exactly do you see those players scoring? What I mean is, in your head, how do all these roles with the duties function together and

1) Use the ball

2) create space

3) Utilise space

I think you suffer the top heavy part I discuss in the opening post and lack movement for most parts.

 

Thanks for the response. I'll go back to the drawing board over the weekend and watch some more games in-depth to work out why we're not scoring and how to change this. 

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, YouGotNoFans said:

Thanks for the response. I'll go back to the drawing board over the weekend and watch some more games in-depth to work out why we're not scoring and how to change this. 

Feel free to post again when you watched and post about what you notice. Will be interesting to see what you spot as I can see a few things but it wont make much sense until you spot them yourself, if that makes sense

[pizarro]

Is it possibli to play a possession bases game with 4-2-3-1 and these roles and instructions?

Flexible and standard or controll and structure.

TI: pass i shorter, be discipline, stick to positions and press more

PI: Non

 

Roles:

F9

Winger (A), Offensiv playmaker (S), Winger (A) [OM position]

Central midfileder (S), Deep lying playmaker (D) [MC position]

Fullback (s), central defender (D), central defender (D), Fullbak (S)

Goalkeeper (D)

 

 

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, pizarro said:

Is it possibli to play a possession bases game with 4-2-3-1 and these roles and instructions?

Flexible and standard or controll and structure.

TI: pass i shorter, be discipline, stick to positions and press more

PI: Non

 

Roles:

F9

Winger (A), Offensiv playmaker (S), Winger (A) [OM position]

Central midfileder (S), Deep lying playmaker (D) [MC position]

Fullback (s), central defender (D), central defender (D), Fullbak (S)

Goalkeeper (D)

 

 

The 4231 attracts the ball naturally so is good for possession anyway. I'd ask you similar questions to others in this thread so far and it would be, why those TI's? What made you select them? How do you see the roles you've selected playing out in a possession based set up? Also how do you utilise this possession and be dangerous?

People are always asking me if 'this or that' should work. What they really should be doing is trying it themselves and then telling me what the issues they saw are. That way people can really learn why something doesn't work. Asking me if a set of roles/instructions should work kind of defeats the point, as it's just me giving you all the answers with no real input from the user themselves. I'm not trying to be an arse btw, but I like to aide people and direct them rather than giving them specific ideas, especially when its still theory based and not been tested

Also might be worth reading this if you haven't already as its all still relevant;

 

[Deisler26]

So, that red space in the analysis of the formation. Is this an issue or does the asymmetric nature of the midfield help? 

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, Deisler26 said:

So, that red space in the analysis of the formation. Is this an issue or does the asymmetric nature of the midfield help? 

All red spaces should give an indication of where the problematic areas are. Like everything though it might not be an actual issue as it doesn't know how you set up to play overall and that you might have created this issue for a specific reason. However it is a quick brief visual to highlight issues. 

[Marc.Foster050]

Started playing with the following Tactic as Cardiff:

                                   GK(D)

WB(D)          CB(D)            CB(D)          FB(A)

                       A(D)             SV(S)        

W(S)                          CM(A)                  W(A)

 

                                 DLF(S)

Flexible - Counter

TI - Close Down much More, Play out of defence, Run at Opposition

PI - CM(A) More risky passes

Seeing Warnock's way of playing I've tried to replicate it but never thought about using the deep 4-2-3-1 until now. Only played pre season but already beaten Bayern after frustrating them and sneaking a 1-0.

Issues I have found so far are only that full backs lose the ball a lot and the striker can be a bit isolated which I'm not too bothered about. I would prefer not to score than to concede for fun when you are predicted a bottom half finish. I can always make small changes to try and sort that issue instead of panicking after a 4-0 loss every week.

Also I want the LM(W) to cut inside when he is running not just with the ball which I am trying to find a way of doing.

The Segundo Volante is brilliant! love how he goes past the cm and tries to get forward and help with attacks but also drops in to defend as well. Very taxing but I have two players I feel can play it.

32 minutes ago, Cleon said:

All red spaces should give an indication of where the problematic areas are. Like everything though it might not be an actual issue as it doesn't know how you set up to play overall and that you might have created this issue for a specific reason. However it is a quick brief visual to highlight issues. 

Think this a brilliant addition. My red areas are in between the midfield and attacker which isn't a problem for me I'm more than happy for the opposition to play it around there :-)

[PMLF]

On 01/11/2017 at 04:58, Cleon said:

Segundo Volante – Without a doubt this is my favourite role on Football Manager ever. I expect him to act like a normal defensive midfielder when not in possession. But when we are in possession this is where he should shine because he is the heartbeat of the side. I want him to bring the ball forward and be the complete midfielder than I need. I also expect him to get his fair share of goals and assists. The whole build from the back approach relies on him and the wingbacks bringing the ball forward. While also providing running from deep and offering support to the advanced players

I am glad the segundo volante is becoming so popular, far more than I expected when I asked the game coders to include it. It's an amazing role in real life, it's nice to see it can be a great role in the game as well.

[gandrasch]

Very informative. I also try and find a new formation for this FM. Started with a 3421 and  transformed until I got something similar to your approach. Instead of an AM I'm trying a B2B in CM, but yet have to see if two late arriving players leaves to much space in the middle while attacking. 

And my wing backs are both a bit further up the pitch. The BPD will be a normal CD when I play with a DLP, if the DLP will become a DM or Anchor Man I will play him as BPD again.

 

 

Looking forward to the next piece very much!

Edited November 3, 2017 by gandrasch

[DazBlade]

I'm using the 4-2-3-1 with Preston at the moment, and I thought I'd managed to find a balanced way of playing when I last played it on Monday night.

Having read the content from @Cleon and other responses in this thread I am now questioning every single part of the tactic I use

Edited November 3, 2017 by DazBlade

[Powello]

26 minutes ago, Marc.Foster050 said:

Issues I have found so far are only that full backs lose the ball a lot and the striker can be a bit isolated which I'm not too bothered about. I would prefer not to score than to concede for fun when you are predicted a bottom half finish. I can always make small changes to try and sort that issue instead of panicking after a 4-0 loss every week.

The full backs likely lose posession because you have the TI run at defence on. Personally I would switch that off and have work ball into box on.

I am using a similar set up and to counter the striker being isolated, if it looks like it is an actual problem in the build up to attacks, I move the CM up to the AM spot and have him as a AP(S). He still drops deep to the CM spot when defending but get's up to support the striker in attack. I tried the CM with get further forward PI, but that made no difference