How many of you still use 2D Classic?

[Dagenham_Dave]

43 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

The photo from FM2018, is after the hotfix patch?

 

Yeah, I took a screenshot from it as I was playing it this morning. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

Btw, incase anyone is wondering, Tom Cairney scored a screamer from that free kick in the second image 

[upthetoon]

5 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Screenshot of both

FM Classic 2018

 

Looks pretty similar. You may think it's different but have a think about how much it's evolved since FM12 for example, when the pitch was really small and the dots huge. 

 

 

Did no one mention why on earth is the grass using horizontal lines???? Is there any pitch in the world using horizontal lines?

LOL.

Edited November 3, 2017 by upthetoon

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

Did no one mention why on earth is the grass using horizontal lines???? Is there any pitch in the world using horizontal lines?

 

I've got no idea, I've never studied it in that much detail. 

 

[upthetoon]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I've got no idea, I've never studied it in that much detail. 

 

somebody must have been sleeping when designing the pitch

[Keyzer Soze]

24 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

Did no one mention why on earth is the grass using horizontal lines???? Is there any pitch in the world using horizontal lines?

LOL.

Funny, i hadn't notice before, but now you mention it...

really strange!!

[Guest]

Ouch! I wonder if we can get @Neil Brock, @Seb Wassell or someone to acknowledge the horizontal lines on the pitch pictures above and ensure us that they will be fixed ASAP. It's only a cosmetic detail, of course, but it does look terrible.

[oulzac]

8 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Screenshot of both

 

FM Classic 2017

 

FM Classic 2018

 

Looks pretty similar. You may think it's different but have a think about how much it's evolved since FM12 for example, when the pitch was really small and the dots huge. 

 

 

Mine doesn't look anything like what you posted, and neither does yours. And you are missing the point entirely by zooming in cropping your images. You painting trying to paint a picutre of just the actual pitch. And not the actual view. Which isn't even the point anyone is making. 

Here is how they actually look. All three. On default settings minus the stadium on/off one obviously.

FM17 2D Classic

FM17 2D with Stadium turned ON

FM17 2D with Stadium turned OFF

FM18 2D Classic

 

Try and tell me again its the same thing, but this time with a straight face.

Notice how the ball is 3D in non classic 2D, just like it is now. And how there are ad boards. There are also weather effects, which didn't exist in 2D classic. Notice how much farther away the camera used to be. How much smaller the players were, and how hard it was to see those stupid little feet icons. Its also about how the game plays in this view/mode. Even more so than how it fully looks.

You will also notice in FM17 when you switch to 2D from 2D classic, it does the players are warming up like it does in 3D. Because its switching to the 3D engine. Which is exactly what we have here with this NEW 2D classic. So again, how is this old 2D classic with changes?

Yes you can now zoom out a big more, but that doesn't change the fact it is still the far inferior 2D mode.

Also after doing this and playing a match again. It plays differently. The 2D classic in FM17 is much, much faster and smoother overall. FM18 has a lot of lag in 2D like it does in 3D.

Nothing about this is 2D classic with changes. It is in fact, 2D from the last game.

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

53 minutes ago, oulzac said:

Mine doesn't look anything like what you posted, and neither does yours.

 

I stopped reading at that point. A screenshot from my own game doesn't look anything like the pitch view...from my own game. 

Nae bother, chief. 

[oulzac]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I stopped reading at that point. A screenshot from my own game doesn't look anything like the pitch view...from my own game. 

Nae bother, chief. 

I don't care that you didn't read any of it. I only quoted you because you quoted me. My beef is with SI. I don't really care about your opinion honestly. We seem to be having a conversation about something that isn't even the point. You seem to be saying the actual pitch looks the same. I'm talking about, and almost everyone else in here is talking about, the actual overall view of the mode in which you view match itself and how it behaves. Not the actual pitch. I've made and proven my points, its all in the images. And anyone who plays any match in all three modes in both games will understand where I'm coming from.

But you have a great day chief. And enjoy the New 2D classic mode to your hearts content.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

1 hour ago, oulzac said:

Mine doesn't look anything like what you posted, and neither does yours. And you are missing the point entirely by zooming in cropping your images. You painting trying to paint a picutre of just the actual pitch. And not the actual view. Which isn't even the point anyone is making. 

Here is how they actually look. All three. On default settings minus the stadium on/off one obviously.

Try and tell me again its the same thing, but this time with a straight face.

Notice how the ball is 3D in non classic 2D, just like it is now. And how there are ad boards. There are also weather effects, which didn't exist in 2D classic. Notice how much farther away the camera used to be. How much smaller the players were, and how hard it was to see those stupid little feet icons. Its also about how the game plays in this view/mode. Even more so than how it fully looks.

You will also notice in FM17 when you switch to 2D from 2D classic, it does the players are warming up like it does in 3D. Because its switching to the 3D engine. Which is exactly what we have here with this NEW 2D classic. So again, how is this old 2D classic with changes?

Yes you can now zoom out a big more, but that doesn't change the fact it is still the far inferior 2D mode.

Also after doing this and playing a match again. It plays differently. The 2D classic in FM17 is much, much faster and smoother overall. FM18 has a lot of lag in 2D like it does in 3D.

Nothing about this is 2D classic with changes. It is in fact, 2D from the last game.

 

The pitch and dots are the same size in FM18 as they were in FM17 2D classic - the pitch scales depending on the pitch dimensions so the difference in your shots is likely due to Paris and Torquay having different pitch sizes. Whilst the pitch and nets are different the dots look near enough the same also cannot tell for sure until we can extract the game files but the ball looks a lot more like the 2D ball than the 3D one, adboards aren't new either as they have been in previous versions and the 2D Classic view has hardly been static over the years.

This is a screenshot of FM18 (default zoom) in my game with bits from FM17 2D classic overlaid:

The red markings are the FM17 pitch outline which near enough matches exactly and the orange area is from FM17 as well which shows the dots are pretty much the same as from FM17.

[oulzac]

4 minutes ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

The pitch and dots are the same size in FM18 as they were in FM17 2D classic - the pitch scales depending on the pitch dimensions so the difference in your shots is likely due to Paris and Torquay having different pitch sizes. Whilst the pitch and nets are different the dots look near enough the same also cannot tell for sure until we can extract the game files but the ball looks a lot more like the 2D ball than the 3D one, adboards aren't new either as they have been in previous versions and the 2D Classic view has hardly been static over the years.

This is a screenshot of FM18 (default zoom) in my game with bits from FM17 2D classic overlaid:

The red markings are the FM17 pitch outline which near enough matches exactly and the orange area is from FM17 as well which shows the dots are pretty much the same as from FM17.

You are also missing the entire point. Is my English that bad? Its my first language, so I hope its not. I'm not really sure how else to get this across. I feel like I'm talking to people who don't speak my language. So it must be my fault in not being able to convey exactly what I mean. I'm flustered at this point that no one understands what I'm saying.

And I'm honestly not trying come across as a dick or anything if that is how anyone is taking it. I'm frustrated I can't seem to get my point across.

Edited November 3, 2017 by oulzac

[Dagenham_Dave]

3 minutes ago, oulzac said:

And enjoy the New 2D classic mode to your hearts content.

Now I can zoom to make it the same size as before,  I will thanks. 

[oulzac]

41 minutes ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

The pitch and dots are the same size in FM18 as they were in FM17 2D classic - the pitch scales depending on the pitch dimensions so the difference in your shots is likely due to Paris and Torquay having different pitch sizes. Whilst the pitch and nets are different the dots look near enough the same also cannot tell for sure until we can extract the game files but the ball looks a lot more like the 2D ball than the 3D one, adboards aren't new either as they have been in previous versions and the 2D Classic view has hardly been static over the years.

This is a screenshot of FM18 (default zoom) in my game with bits from FM17 2D classic overlaid:

The red markings are the FM17 pitch outline which near enough matches exactly and the orange area is from FM17 as well which shows the dots are pretty much the same as from FM17.

I'll try this one more time.

The complaints about 2D mode are not about the actual view of the playing pitch itself. I'm not sure how this became about that honestly. My original post said nothing of the sort.

What was 2D Classic in FM17, is not what is 2D Classic in FM18.

2D Classic in FM18, is what is called just 2D in FM17. These modes of view are identical. (minus the stadium graphic)

2D Classic in FM18 is NOT what is called 2D Classic in FM17. These modes are NOT identical.

If you have a hard time understanding this, please load up FM17 in 2D classic. Then switch it during the game to 2D. You will see all the changes. It becomes what is FM18 Classic but with the stadium graphic. This is because it switches to the 3D mode, its not actually in 2D mode anymore. Its 2D being presented in 3D. The ball now has 3D effects. There are now ad boards on the side of the pitch. There are weather effects you can see. None of these things are in FM17 2D Classic. This effects how the entire view is presented to the player. NOT just the actual pitch and size of the dots. But the dots now have feet. They move more slowly and sluggishly like you were viewing the actual 3D character models. The ball now zooms up towards your face and spins around. And a few other things change.

Its always felt like these two modes in FM17 were handled by almost two different ME overlays. Or go between connectors to the same ME if you will. So not only is it presented differently to the player, it seems to behave slightly differently. I am NOT saying the ME calculates or does anything different. What I mean by behaves differently, is the physical representation of what the dots are doing, can do, and how its shown to you the player. This would explain to me why then dots move slower. Because they are not longer actual 2D dots, but are now 2D dots rendered in 3D. But this is only a guess.

I was replying to a mod (you actually) saying that "yes 2D classic is still in the game but with tweaks". I was saying, no in fact it is not. It is what was just 2D, and that has now been relabeled as "classic". It is that mode with tweaks. Another mod (or maybe he is SI staff and not a mod) in early pages even states that what was 2D classic was removed due to changes to the ME and how they wanted to move forward to represent 3D. So that seems to be confusing that one person says one thing, and another person says something else. Shouldn't you both be giving customers/users the same info?

I have no idea how this became about the size of the dots or the zoomed view of the actual pitch surface. But you can clearly look at the images I posted that explain all of this. You can see everything I am saying. You can even load up both games and look at them to see it for yourself. And for the record. The dots are bigger for me in FM18 than they are in FM17. You can see this via the images I posted in my previous post.

I hope this helps with understand what I am saying. If not, then I give up. Because it will only further my frustration trying to convey it as I honestly have no idea how else to say it.

 

[Majesticc]

As mentioend earlier - i've been a fan of the series since the first installment back in 2005 and have aways preferred the 2D option when viewing games but have to echo the sentiments of Oulzac (above), the current viewer looks inferior to the original 2D classic display.

For me Oulzac is explaining the issue quite clearly, that the current 2D 'classic' viewer is actually just last seasons 2D aerial view point. 

Bring back the ACTUAL 2D classic viewer! (Please!)

 

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Majesticc

[Dagenham_Dave]

Since the last update, the pitches are more like the old 2D classic than when the game first came out...

 

[Tony Wright 747]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Since the last update, the pitches are more like the old 2D classic than when the game first came out...

 

Apart from the horizontal lines that is

[Dagenham_Dave]

It's a criss-cross pattern, very common in real life. 

[cel1234]

Always been 2D ever since you could use it. No replays.

[Etebaer]

3D match only - hopefully the FM18 will be as good as FM13 cause i did not like FM16/17 as they did not show much accuracy in displaying the match while in FM13 i had a very good sense what was going on.

[Tony Wright 747]

13 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's a criss-cross pattern, very common in real life. 

Quite right Dave, but the lines should always appear vertical from your viewing point.  If you watch a real match from the side the lines will run from touchline to touchline, if you sit behind the goal then they will run from goal line to goal line.  That is not how it is being shown in 2D at the moment and not how it was shown in previous versions.

[upthetoon]

When will SI fix this horizontal grass lines problem? I did not purchase fm17 but I asked my friend to check it out and it seems the horizontal grass lines are also in fm17. 

No one raised this? Or are we expected to raise it as a bug first? 

[BigB10]

On 03/11/2017 at 10:18, Dagenham_Dave said:

Screenshot of both

 

FM Classic 2017

 

FM Classic 2018

 

Looks pretty similar. You may think it's different but have a think about how much it's evolved since FM12 for example, when the pitch was really small and the dots huge. 

Hi, just downloaded 18 and desperately  looking to chance my engine to 2D classic, when i go to preferences, and match interface it doesnt give that option to change 

 

 

hi jsut downloaded

[BigB10]

Hi, just downloaded 18 and desperately  looking to chance my engine to 2D classic, when i go to preferences, and match interface it doesnt give that option to change 

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

51 minutes ago, BigB10 said:

Hi, just downloaded 18 and desperately  looking to chance my engine to 2D classic, when i go to preferences, and match interface it doesnt give that option to change 

 

You change it in game. When in the match there's a little 'cog wheel' icon at the top right, this opens up the box where you can change the camera view. 

[OLLMEISTER1]

On ‎02‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 18:51, michaeltmurrayuk said:

No 2D Classic is still in the game (with some tweaks) it's the other 2D view that has been removed from the game.

Whoever came to this decision should be hung, drawn & quartered or at least have his pants pulled down, arse smacked and thrown out of SI headquarters head first. Appalling decision.  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

Whoever came to this decision should be hung, drawn & quartered or at least have his pants pulled down, arse smacked and thrown out of SI headquarters head first. Appalling decision.  

 

You're being quite harsh there. But in a sense I agree: I have never had any interest in the 3D view, and I cannot understand why they have tampered with the 2D.

[Mystique]

On 30/10/2017 at 22:38, michaeltmurrayuk said:

Shouldn't be a windowed mode problem as I play in Windowed mode (could be a resolution or other bug). To pin them you need to drag the widgets and you'll get an icon in the corner of the screens like in the below screenshot:

Then drag the widget to the icon you want and a red box should appear;

Let go of the widget and it should be docked;

If you then pin it the pitch will then stop at the widget;

You can also use the dropdown menu next to the pin to move it to another side and the other icon will shrink/expand the dock if you don't want the widgets always showing.

You can also drag more widgets into the dock, so you can have the scores widget below the stats for example.

You can also dock another widget on a different side but it's a bit awkward (not sure if it a proper feature or not?) - first you need to close that widget by clicking the X then open the widget you want displayed in another dock and repeat the above instructions to dock and pin the new widget, once that is done reopen the first widget and you should have two pinned widget areas.

You can also resize the pinned area by dragging the border of the pinned area, you can also resize the widgets.

So once the bugs are ironed out it should offer a lot more flexibility than the old system (and will hopefully be moddable by skinners once we can extract the game files on full release)

Does this only work for 2D view?  I try to do it on 3D view but I get no red box.

[Guest]

Question to everyone who has used 2D in FM2018: are those advertisement boards a permanent feature or something you can remove?

[rickshaw6579]

2D vertical view with split screen was a great way to play in all previous versions. Gutted that's not an option. 3D just looks awful still, farewell Football Manager I guess.

Edited November 10, 2017 by rickshaw6579

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, rickshaw6579 said:

2D vertical view with split screen was a great way to play in all previous versions. Gutted that's not an option. 3D just looks awful still, farewell Football Manager I guess.

 

Given how processor-easy (ha!) the 2D must be, it's astonishing to see that it's been taken away. Farewell it is.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Guest

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

Whoever came to this decision should be hung, drawn & quartered or at least have his pants pulled down, arse smacked and thrown out of SI headquarters head first. Appalling decision.  

I remember posting something similar when they first made the decision to have the big squares on the tactics pitch instead of shirts on FM16  

Got a week long ban. 

[TheInvisibleMan]

Anyone else think the ball in 2D classic is too big?

Looks like they're kicking a beach ball around. On the old 2D classic it was spot on but on FM18 it just seems massive when there's no real need for it.

Not sure if it's because it now expands as it goes higher in the air but even on the floor to me it looks way too big.

[McClane29]

29 minutes ago, TheInvisibleMan said:

Anyone else think the ball in 2D classic is too big?

Looks like they're kicking a beach ball around. On the old 2D classic it was spot on but on FM18 it just seems massive when there's no real need for it.

Not sure if it's because it now expands as it goes higher in the air but even on the floor to me it looks way too big.

Yeah, I do agree.

They should decrease the ball size by 5% or so.

[Spedding]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

 

Given how processor-easy (ha!) the 2D must be, it's astonishing to see that it's been taken away. Farewell it is.

On ‎30‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 12:25, Neil Dejyothin said:

Hello all,

Let me give you some background on this, so you can better understand where we’re coming from.

Firstly we love the 2D Classic based view. It’s here to stay and isn’t going anywhere. We’ve no plans to remove it, however the original 2D Classic “Software Rendering” implementation was extremely old and inefficient and was expensive from both a memory and performance perspective, and we were effectively supporting two engines for many years while we kept it alive.

The “Software Rendering” implementation makes use of the CPU only and doesn’t harness any power from the GPU. This means that there’s 100% throughput going through the CPU and it actually causes FM to process slower in a lot of hardware cases, as everything gets queued up on the CPU and is CPU bound.

The majority of modern day hardware and software over the last 10 years has shifted to fully multi-threaded environments, with many of today’s applications making use of both the CPU and GPU to share the load. This is a direction that we’re heading more and more towards and will allow us to reap benefits in the long run, not to mention that most modern day software developers are more used to this style of design and engineering too.

Doing this allows us to spread performance across both CPU and GPU and push graphics based intensive tasks where they natively should be on the GPU. This doesn’t just affect 2d Classic as a mode, it also affects the entire user interface, which we can share tasks on the GPU.

It’s important that we free up the CPU to allow us to further development in other areas of FM and we’re keen to take advantage of that as time passes.

It’s never easy to drop support for something but we’ve been one of the best in the business at backwards support. There are very few other games or software out there that would have kept Software Rendering around and supported two engine’s in this respect for as long as we have.

But, from the data that we’ve looked at over the last years, we know the capabilities of the hardware our users have, and the majority of that hardware will be able to benefit from the future direction we want to take.

We appreciate there are niggles and differences of opinion of the current 2d Classic view in FM 2018 Beta. We’ve tried to make a hybrid that mixes the best elements of the original and add some flavour from having everything unified under one system.

Plenty of you have raised some good feedback and issues here as well, and we’re listening to that and making some adjustments where necessary. We may not be able to please every single one of you, but there will be improvements made in time for release.

We have already made refinements to the lighting of the pitches, fixed an issue where the 2d classic ball spins on the spot when it shouldn’t, as well as added the ability to zoom in and out a little, which will help you adjust the amount of pitch you can see.

Hope that helps.

[Neil Brock]

3 hours ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

Whoever came to this decision should be hung, drawn & quartered or at least have his pants pulled down, arse smacked and thrown out of SI headquarters head first. Appalling decision.  

Directly from the person who helped make the decision with the reasoning. Would appreciate it if you took the time to understand the reasoning behind it before labelling it an 'appalling' decision. Thanks.  

[Pro Patria]

I love 2D, as it allows me to see how my formation is working, and how individual players are performing roles. 

[Artin]

39 minutes ago, Pro Patria said:

I love 2D, as it allows me to see how my formation is working, and how individual players are performing roles. 

exactly this ^^^

i've played with all the 3d camera options and changed all the zoom/elevation/etc. and none can compete with the clarity of using a 2d camera to see exactly how your formation and players are doing.

[TheInvisibleMan]

Frustrating that the popups for offside and fouls no longer pop up on 2D, it's a bit of a nightmare to understand when it's offside or a penalty without looking down at the commentary.

If we had those and a smaller ball I wouldn't mind the new 2D at all.

[coxy100]

I still use 2D - always will.  I don’t buy football manager for it to look shiny.  I have zero interest in 3D 

[Rooneye]

On 11/6/2017 at 10:38, Tony Wright 747 said:

Quite right Dave, but the lines should always appear vertical from your viewing point.  If you watch a real match from the side the lines will run from touchline to touchline, if you sit behind the goal then they will run from goal line to goal line.  That is not how it is being shown in 2D at the moment and not how it was shown in previous versions.

Yeah like this:

Vertical view:

 

And the same pitch, but viewed from the horizontal perspective:

 

But on topic, I really don't like the newer 2D view, never have. There is just something "off" about it for me compared to the "classic" (the real "classic") 2D view. The way the ball moves and is animated just doesn't feel right. I have a similar feeling watching 60fps videos on YouTube after a lifetime of 24-30fps, the movement just feels different. 

HOWEVER, I totally get why they removed it after reading the explanation, fair enough I understand the decision and think it was the right thing.

Also I'm sure after playing with this newer 2D view for a long period that we'll adjust and get used to it, and it will feel "normal" to us like the old view did. But I do think those of us who preferred and used the "classic" 2D view over the newer 2D view were in the majority for sure as I've watched many YouTube FM vids/streams etc. and the people that use 2D pretty much all of them used the "classic" same for me and all my FM playing mates. 

This will go down with the Wibble/Wobble tactics and sliders as the feature of FM that people mourned when it was removed

[Matorko]

2d is shocking. I don't even want to call it 2d classic because it's not. Even when I had top PC, I played 2d instead of 3d, now I can't turn it off in preferences. Set graphics to very low, everything on low/off except rendering so I don't have Sega Genenis look of this 2d, and my CPU/GPU temp reaches around 90c, which is close to overheating, especially before the game, at half time and after the game because of 3d stadium behind it which i don't care about. 2d classic should be an option for everyone, like only commentary and 3d. Absolutely disgusting.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Matorko

[sedge11]

I usually just watch the games on only commentary on previous fm's but have used both 2D and 3D, but this year have been using the 2d classic mainly because the 3D is quite stuttery on my laptop, and really enjoying it, I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about with people moaning about it, the 2D for me looks great and can put all your information you want around it so very happy with it and will be what I use all the time from now on.

[Charlie_B]

For balance - I've always used 2D classic and have absolutely no problem using it this year (now that I've disabled the flashing adverts).

[razmth]

I've always used 2D classic regardless how strong was my config. My reasons go from tradition to better view for my analysis. It's sad to see how SI/SEGA take care of the business: first regarding the lack of effort to bargain with Brazilian clubs. No effort, no clarity to make us able to support the negotiations spamming our clubs with messages, nothing. Now the 2D classic. It seems the minorities don't even matter.

 

Ok, the engine changes for the future. But couldn't the new engine look like the previous pitch?

 

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by razmth

[Wippien]

2D, still using it. Although it seems different.. despite the fact thats it is available is good! And i can understand why, as Neil and others explained for certain reasons. But what i dont like tis the 3d engine on the back, why cant i chose to make it completely 2d. Although i have the machine to run it in VR if i want to, but i dont see the plusses for using 3D. It seems to me, that the gameplay can be faster withouth 3D or never the less not irritating to me XD

[7omer]

It took a long time for me to accept 3D, and I was a true follower to 2D uptil FM2017. Then I gave it a real go for the first time and found out that I got so much better quality input for how my players actually play and behave in 3D.

I easier see how and why they get past or stopped by people. I easier see how I utilise the air and how I win or lose there. I feel I get so much more valuable information about how my tactic works with 3D than 2D, more in visual debt. But as many says, I do miss the overview that 2D gives, and probably a reason I kept it so long. But now I can't go back to 2D, I will not get enough visual info there anylonger, after I got used to 3D (something that was hard to accept and do). 

[bennytee]

On 11/10/2017 at 17:31, xzar_monty said:

 

Given how processor-easy (ha!) the 2D must be, it's astonishing to see that it's been taken away. Farewell it is.

This is the crux of the matter for me, I use a windows tablet on my commute and don't really want the whole 3D engine firing up just to play in 2D.  It buffers occasionally too because my graphics cannot handle it, i'm still plodding along with it but its far from ideal.

 

[elpano]

How can I change the entire match view (match and replays) from 3d to 2d?

[YKW]

On 30/10/2017 at 12:25, Neil Dejyothin said:

Hello all,

Let me give you some background on this, so you can better understand where we’re coming from.....

Hope that helps.

 

 

Sad news. You would always pop up on here with some great responses. And your name reminds me of an FM Newgen's name, which I respect. 

Thanks for the 15 years and good luck.