Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

[mrdorf]

Meh - load a bog standard flat 442, convert it. Just set the Mentality, Closing Down, Width, Passing Style and Defensive Line sliders perfectly aligned with each other somewhere between 11 and 15 (first click of Attacking) for the entire team. Put Long Shots to Rarely for all players, set the tempo to somewhere between 5 and 10 and leave the rest alone.

Now, play the first friendly match and see if the following happens:

1. The midfielders are caught in nowhere land and the opponent exploit space between defense and midfield in the middle.

2. The strikers start their forward runs too early.

3. You struggle to regain possession after losing it, and the midfield and defense are backing off when run at.

4. The wingers are helpful in defense but will only help the attack when you have been in possession for a while.

5. You are countered upon.

If so, which I expect you will see, do the following:

A. Set one or both central midfielders to run with ball and run from deep rarely.

B. Set one or both strikers to run from deep rarely.

C. Depending on where you set mentality and defensive line, increase closing down on all but the defenders. If in vicinity of 15, max it out. Hard tackling on all four midfielders.

D. Set both wingers to run from deep often. If still not enough, increase mentality. If still not enough, run with ball often and through balls often, increase creative freedom.

E. Set both full backs to run from deep rarely. (I assume no CDs are ever told to run forward or anything)

Now you should have the framework of a balanced 442. Using sliders is easy if you keep things simple (aka avoid Often settings on runs with or without the ball, crossing and through balls - when it is not necessary). The instructions for these central midfielders, for instance, can allow you to play both a deep-lying playmaker type and a hard-working tenacious midfielder type together without changing anything. The high passing skill and creativity of the former will make him play a more advanced passing game than his more simple-minded partner, so both will choose correctly precisely because you have not told him to do or not do anything (besides waiting with the forward runs). The same with the strikers; if you give them a bit more creative freedom they will choose to run forward quickly when that is the correct choice to make, despite being told to do so rarely. While a target man with no skill on the ball and no speed should of course be told to not run with the ball, if he is strong and has decent technique he will function nicely as a target man with these settings because he is strong and good in the air and he comes deep. If you don't have fast strikers, you will play differently, but it will still work because they will choose what is best on their own.

Why try to outsmart the opponent with lots of tactical changes and whatnot when you can have your players do it for you?

I think people who don't believe they know enough tactical theory to succeed in this game have just veered off on the wrong path. There is no need to read page upon page on tactical theory at all - there's so many variables in football (and in FM) that the very idea that there's a correct tactical choice for every situation is ridiculous. The answer to the question "what do I do now; I am overrun on the flanks and the cross on me all the time" is simply let your players have the options available to them that would let them stop the doubling-up on the flanks. Maybe their closing down is too low, so they back off, or maybe their mentality is too high so they tackle when they should have stayed on their feet, maybe you should drop deeper to deny them the space, maybe you should play narrower to plug holes between the CD and the DR/L, maybe wider to make the distance to close down smaller, maybe it has nothing to do with flank play at all but that you can't keep the possession, maybe it is nothing tactical at all - your team talk made them nervous or confidence is low because you are over your head as a rookie-reputation manager and your players don't trust you. Reading giant articles about this will probably confuse you more than help you, since when to do what require more than what can be written down in them.

So, make it simple; don't tell them what to do in every situation. Avoid elaborate game-plans and the reliance on specific players doing specific things. Give them the option to do what must be done, but restrict them when it is necessary.

If your slow, lumbering target man must be a quick poacher because a through ball was played in his direction, why not let him try? You might be surprised...

I'll have another go. I started again last night and felt I was getting somewhere but then the had two games where I "should" have won but didn't. I know it was two games but I hadn't a clue what I was doing wrong. Looked like just bad defending to be honest and you can't stop a player defending badly. I pretty much raged quit as I hate having to play the game over again to win. This game is so frustrating! As it's hard to work out what went wrong, which is why I get annoyed because nothing I do can prevent a loss, if I can't identify the problem. I do appreciate the help, though! Cheers!

[lawd]

I think the thing that annoys me most about finishing in general is that my teams very rarley square the ball for a simple tap in. Over the course of my two saves I have maybe seen it once or twice, yet I concede those types of goals from the AI much more often. I am yet to work out a formula to get my payers to square the ball for a tap in rather then try a shot from a extremely tight angle. The 'look to pass' PPM doesn't seem to help a great deal. I don't mind when I am 3-0 up my players trying their luck, but in a tight game when I have a player free to receive a square ball and tap it in to an empty net, my team almost always elect to shoot instead.

[iFrancesco10]

Sorry, I didn't understand anything because I don't speak english correctly. In this thread, Does anyone find a solution for the finishing problem with the last patch?

[Cougar2010]

Sorry, I didn't understand anything because I don't speak english correctly. In this thread, Does anyone find a solution for the finishing problem with the last patch?

Your English seems fine.

Solution: Improve your tactics as this thread has proven.

[iFrancesco10]

I'm italian, I have a basic preparation for the english language, but i can't understand 6 pages of this thread, this is too difficult for me.

So, I have to work on the tactic? I tried many solutions about the tactic, but the problem is that my players aren't able to shot on target, they shot off target even when the goalkeeper there isn't

[Guest]

*national football stereotype warning*

If anything a classic Italian catenaccio style will work wonders on the current match engine.

[manager2012]

[video=youtube;IJMWC6DSHEQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJMWC6DSHEQ&feature=plcp check this how i beat wigan 6-0 and then couldn't beat sunderland west brom and chealsea

[siambluebird]

He perceives that good players are the be all and end all, whereas I believe they are important but not the only piece in the puzzle. Tactical, motivational and media management all play a part. Unless he learns this, then he'll always get frustrated and blame bugs for inevitable losses.

That is that. Perfectly put

[BiggusD]

I'm italian, I have a basic preparation for the english language, but i can't understand 6 pages of this thread, this is too difficult for me.

So, I have to work on the tactic? I tried many solutions about the tactic, but the problem is that my players aren't able to shot on target, they shot off target even when the goalkeeper there isn't

The solution is to lower the attacking mentality, lower tempo and play wider football.

However, misses like that can be motivational too. If they are overconfident they won't be focused enough, and will make mistakes - also in front of goal. If they are wound-up or nervous they will also lose focus and make mistakes. The motivational gadget will not necessarily inform you about either situation, and neither will green motivation arrows pre-match and at half-time.

[iFrancesco10]

Parma shots one time. And wins the match.

Sampdoria never shots, but the match finishes 0-0. I'm in 2019, when I will win a Serie A if about the 60% of matches are like those!

[mrdorf]

Some players, I find, panic under pressure. Jelavic does this when I tell the team: "I expect a win."

[BiggusD]

Parma shots one time. And wins the match.

Sampdoria never shots, but the match finishes 0-0. I'm in 2019, when I will win a Serie A if about the 60% of matches are like those!

Actually, 19/5 and 11/3 shots/shots on target are evidence of very poor attacking play. You had a lot of possession, but failed to create enough big chances. Less than 50% shot/shot on target ratio is a problem because it means your players are shooting when they shouldn't, so this is a case of either poor tactics, poor man management or team building - not poor programming.

In other words, when the outcome is as you show here, FM is functioning as intended. However, if statistics and tactical instructions cannot explain why the user team is hyperinefficient while the AI is hyperefficient, then the user becomes a passenger of his own game and we have a problem. I think I showed such a case earlier in this thread, but changing tactics fixed the problem, so it seems like it was all user-created... although I think that the ME shouldn't respond in ways that makes it impossible to locate the tactical mistake, no matter what.

[Deco'sDancingFeet]

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q600/DCSchafers/2012-07-10_00001.jpg[/img]"]

I completely understand Rangers being better at finishing than Caley Thistle. However they only had one clear cut chance, 3 half chances and scored 5 goals. Were they infused by the spirit of Pele and Van Basten?

It's just this happens soo often on FM. It seems almost every game, the AI's first shot on target goes in. Doesn't matter if it's close in or far out, if it's an attack that isn't "X shoots" on the commentary, it's a goal. Kills any joy, when you know the AI is the ultimate finishing machine, with any player regardless of division or quality difference.

[conshaldo_bonaldo]

For the love of all that is good, stop looking at CCCs.

Its pointless pointing out possession because its obvious that wigan sat back and let you have your way on most of the pitch.

I'm not saying I have no issues with the ME, I just think that people focus too much on CCCs and get all mad because of it. (My main is the amount of shots a team can take when they are dominating the match greatly. I don't think I've ever seen a team take 45 shots in a match before).

I've had plenty of matches where I've had 1 recorded CCC and have scored 4 goals.

The reason I dislike that stat is because it is such an objective one.

I think CCC must just mean 'one-on-one' with the keeper.... seems sensible idea.

[conshaldo_bonaldo]

I think the thing that annoys me most about finishing in general is that my teams very rarley square the ball for a simple tap in. Over the course of my two saves I have maybe seen it once or twice, yet I concede those types of goals from the AI much more often. I am yet to work out a formula to get my payers to square the ball for a tap in rather then try a shot from a extremely tight angle. The 'look to pass' PPM doesn't seem to help a great deal. I don't mind when I am 3-0 up my players trying their luck, but in a tight game when I have a player free to receive a square ball and tap it in to an empty net, my team almost always elect to shoot instead.

That was one of my bugbears about the FM12 m.e.

[lampuiho]

1 shot 1 goal http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/1.png

9 shots, 7 on target 3 clear chances http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/2.png

Low number of shots but all quality http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/3.png

Same as above http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/4.png

http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/5.png

I'm the AI in your game http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/6.png

As you can see we can easily do what the AI does.

It's quality what counts not how many.

haha Fulham had 5 clear cut chances against you. You were probably just lucky.

[BiggusD]

haha Fulham had 5 clear cut chances against you. You were probably just lucky.

Necrobump of the year?

[skipping pig]

I was going to post about the number of User vs AI goals scored from goalmouth scrambles, but whats the point? FM14 is done and dusted and I hold out very little hope of the core issues of the game being addressed.

Instead we can no doubt look forward to even more irrelevant press conference responses that have nothing to do with the questions being asked...

[DeadZone]

Necrobump of the year?

Indeed lol

Though since this is back, I wouldn't be surprised if the AI cheats abit, it has to or the game gets too easy to fast for non-hardcore players (hell, something simple like a 3rd party scouting tool gives the player a massive advantage)

Infact, AI cheating (or being given a 'balancing factor') is common in most games using them

Frustrating? Yes

End of the world? Nah

Just remember, despite all the progress in the past many decades, game AI is still weak against a human player, limits of development times and available technology will hold it back for sometime yet

[av3ry]

AI isnt always better at finishing...

[Ackter]

Indeed lol

Though since this is back, I wouldn't be surprised if the AI cheats abit, it has to or the game gets too easy to fast for non-hardcore players (hell, something simple like a 3rd party scouting tool gives the player a massive advantage)

Infact, AI cheating (or being given a 'balancing factor') is common in most games using them

Frustrating? Yes

End of the world? Nah

Just remember, despite all the progress in the past many decades, game AI is still weak against a human player, limits of development times and available technology will hold it back for sometime yet

There is no cheating, artificial bias or rubber-banding in the match engine, at all - it's just a (very complex and sophisticated) tool that processes the information fed into it.

[Keyzer Soze]

Paul C, had said... so many times, that the ME is the same for AI and human teams. So it's impossible to have some sort of cheating. Simple as that.

[karl b]

Part of me feels like the game tries to create certain scenarios all too often, goals in injury time, teams scoring from there only shot and having only 23% possession, crosses drifting in....maybe i'm wrong and i'm just REALLY ANGRY that i'm 11 points behind city and am going to finish second AGAIN !!!!!!!

[Ackter]

Human nature is to remember all those things that go against us, no matter how small, while forgetting about all but the biggest victories.

In short: we all love being miserable.

[MisterX]

I win most matches, and the AI has mostly most shots... So the AI is not mucht better in finishing.

[Jonesy_NT]

I'm routinely watching my players get in each others way, tap ins go over the cross bar, players ruining tap ins by taking an extra touch with an open goal mouth... the list of atrocities goes on and on. I built this tactic from scratch and it works, i'm regularly placing highly in the premier league with a quality team, but results like the ones mentioned here are what's really killing this game for me. These regular occurrences are what costs me a genuine shot at the title every season.

Essentially my game is based around possession and creating 10 odd chances a game, 2-3 ccc's and a half dozen or so half chances. It took me a while to get it right but that's what i've created and it works perfectly, the massive issue i have is my players refuse to finish off. Earlier on when i was less of a threat, i was creating the EXACT SAME chances and scoring goals, the only difference being i would cop more due to poor defence so i wasn't too phased then. But now, my defense is superb and my strikers who've matured and got better just refuse to score from the same chances. I don't even get excited when a player gets in behind for a 1 on 1 now because they NEVER finish it. I've tweaked my dead ball routine's to the point where i get a free header or 2 nearly every game and i don't get excited about them either because they always end up over the cross bar. Opposition keepers routinely make 3-4 saves of the year while mine (4 star keeper) regularly parries his one straight forward on target save for the game into the net.

It's extremely frustrating the way that this game forces my players to waste chances. I'm routinely seeing players (no matter their preffered foot/side) shooting into the side netting rather than trying to put it across the keeper (finishing 101, right?) and the once or twice a game they do actually do it, it usually ends up near the corner flag. headers from a dead ball are over the bar, free or not, that is a given to me now. I'm genuinely shocked every time (and by every time i mean the 3 times it's happened in the last 100 odd games) that a player heads the ball down rather than blasting it over the bar into the 8th row.

And the more i've played it, the more i've realised what it is: it's SI doing their best FIFA impersonation. The better your players/team are, the worse they play. The ammount of times i've had 25 shots to 3 or 4 and had a 1-1 draw despite creating 4-5 goals that have been butchered by the game is astonishing.

[Lawlore]

Results liked the ones mentioned here were, for one thing, based on a much earlier version of the Match Engine, since this thread is almost a year old.

Having said that, the same points that other mentioned in the previous few posts still apply:

There is no cheating, artificial bias or rubber-banding in the match engine, at all - it's just a (very complex and sophisticated) tool that processes the information fed into it.

Paul C, had said... so many times, that the ME is the same for AI and human teams. So it's impossible to have some sort of cheating. Simple as that.

The ME is not perfect, and I'm not going to pretend it is. But some of what you've said sounds like it's tactical. If you are genuinely interested in making your team work better, in taking those chances, head over to the Tactics Forum, get as much information up there about what you're doing and people who know the game inside out, including those who worked on the tactical side of the game, are happy to analyse and suggest where your tactic could be more effective.

[Cougar2010]

and of course none of that is your fault

Your first problem is expecting the same tactic to work all the time against different opposition & your second is saying that your tactic is "Perfect" despite being unhappy with its results.

You need to learn there is no "Perfect" tactic and you need to be able to identify when yours isn't working + be able to make the chances which allows you to gain those extra points.

[HUNT3R]

Damn. My strikers didn't get the memo then. They're very good and scoring at a better rate than the best strikers IRL.

[TioPatinhax]

Do you OFTEN tweak your tactics according to the opponent you´re facing?

[HUNT3R]

Me? No. Same tactic for most games. I only use a different tactic against the big 3 teams in the league.

[Gamerasaph]

It is, there's something wrong with the game, on a season opener I played as Mu's head coach against Aston Villa, I don't actually have the screenshot, but if i remember right, I had 68% ball possession 42 shots 19 on target and get this, 7 clear cut chances and like 8 half chances compared to Aston Villa's 6 shots 3 on target, 1 half chance, i lost the game 0-1, and at that time my team had the likes of Cavani, Rooney, Dybala, Martial, Memphis, Juan Mata and so much more, but gestede with one shot in the whole game wins it

[PleasedToMichu]

Honestly guys, i'm as bad as you when i lose on FM. I look for any excuse. I head into the shower and think "bloody game, always making me lose when i should win". But honestly, we all know this isn't the case.

I watch my team Swindon quite a lot irl (yeah yeah, we've been rubbish this year, give it a rest ) and i can't even begin to explain some of the games i've seen. Spending what seems like 85 of the 90 minutes jumping out my seat with my hands on my hand as another shot sneaks wide or the keeper pulls off another wonder save. And then the opposition go up the other end and get a corner, cross it in, goal mouth scramble, bang it in and hold on for a 1-0.

We know it happens irl. So it's going to happen on FM. I've had a ton of games when i've soaked up pressure, watched the computer spurn chance after chance, and gone up the other end and scored a scruffy goal at the end of one of my extremely rare attacks, and held out to win 1-0.

[spankie]

Well done Gamerasaph, making first post to a thread that was started 3 years ago and hasn't been poested in for over 1 year. There is a feedback thread for FM16.

Games like that happen IRL, if that consistently happened to you all the time then it might be an issue, although I would say its a problem with your tactics. Havign games like that as one offs can and will happen, luck plays a part in footbal in the game and in real life. Just brush yourself off and try to win the next game.

[themadsheep2001]

Well done Gamerasaph, making first post to a thread that was started 3 years ago and hasn't been poested in for over 1 year. There is a feedback thread for FM16.

Games like that happen IRL, if that consistently happened to you all the time then it might be an issue, although I would say its a problem with your tactics. Havign games like that as one offs can and will happen, luck plays a part in footbal in the game and in real life. Just brush yourself off and try to win the next game.

Also it's a thread that conclusively proved the opposite about the AI. Rather than just reviving it, he would be better served reading it from the top.

[pukfm]

No, i think you are wrong. I also have big issue with this. My defenders are NOT out of position and they are NOT nervous. The AI only need 1-2 chances to score a goal, and i need 5-6 chances. So ex. if the match score is 2-2, the AI has only 3-4 chances and i have 10-12 chances, even though my strikers have lot better finishing attr. Very frustrating..

[pukfm]

Because when you play the AI with a big team or a team on a massive winning streak, it plays defensively, so the few chances it does get are typically breakaways where your defenders are out of position.

Also, if you are on a winning streak or in a title challenge, your players may be getting complacent or nervous whereas a decent team sitting comfortably in mid-table and expecting, at best, a draw against you will have their strikers under less pressure to score.

No, i think you are wrong. I also have big issue with this. My defenders are NOT out of position and they are NOT nervous. The AI only need 1-2 chances to score a goal, and i need 5-6 chances. So ex. if the match score is 2-2, the AI has only 3-4 chances and i have 10-12 chances, even though my strikers have lot better finishing attr. Its ALWAYS like this, no matter tactic, morale etc. Very frustrating..

[themadsheep2001]

No, i think you are wrong. I also have big issue with this. My defenders are NOT out of position and they are NOT nervous. The AI only need 1-2 chances to score a goal, and i need 5-6 chances. So ex. if the match score is 2-2, the AI has only 3-4 chances and i have 10-12 chances, even though my strikers have lot better finishing attr. Its ALWAYS like this, no matter tactic, morale etc. Very frustrating..

Then you need to revisit what you are doing. This thread actually conclusively proved the opposite, within the OP's own save. I suggest reading this thread from the start.

[pukfm]

Then you need to revisit what you are doing. This thread actually conclusively proved the opposite, within the OP's own save. I suggest reading this thread from the start.

I cant see how this thread proved the opposite?

I play as Arsenal and just won 2-0 against Everton. I had 28 shoots on goal and just scored 2 goals. Its like this in every time no matter tactics and team morale..

[RTHerringbone]

I play as Arsenal and just won 2-0 against Everton. I had 28 shoots on goal and just scored 2 goals. Its like this in every time no matter tactics and team morale..

Post number four in this thread:

It's all about the quality of the chances not the number

Detail your system and we'll get an understanding of your perceived injustice.

[pukfm]

Post number four in this thread:

Detail your system and we'll get an understanding of your perceived injustice.

So ALL my opponents have lot of quality chances and i do not? If the match score is 2-2, the AI has only 3-4 chances and i have 10-12 chances, even though my strikers have lot better finishing attr. Its ALWAYS like this, no matter tactic, morale etc. Very frustrating..

[RTHerringbone]

So ALL my opponents have lot of quality chances and i do not? If the match score is 2-2, the AI has only 3-4 chances and i have 10-12 chances, even though my strikers have lot better finishing attr. Its ALWAYS like this, no matter tactic, morale etc. Very frustrating..

And the point is they create better chances. I don't see what is so hard to understand?

[pukfm]

And the point is they create better chances. I don't see what is so hard to understand?

The point is, how does ALL my opponents create LOT MORE quality chances, no matter which tactic i use, and no matter the morale, player-motivation etc. - I also had this issue in FM15. To win a match, i have to create 4-5 time more chances than my opponnents. And i can see from this thread that i'm far from the only one that has this issue

[Cougar2010]

The point is, how does ALL my opponents create LOT MORE quality chances, no matter which tactic i use, and no matter the morale, player-motivation etc. - I also had this issue in FM15. To win a match, i have to create 4-5 time more chances than my opponnents. And i can see from this thread that i'm far from the only one that has this issue

The OP thought he had the same problem as you.

He crunched the numbers from his save, he did all the calculations himself and proved to himself & everyone else that his impression was wrong.

You should do the same thing, take a season, collect all the data, calculate how efficient the AI teams are against you & then calculate how efficient your team is. If your conversion rate is significantly lower than the AI teams then you need to look at what you are doing wrong.

[EmX]

it's not that your bad at finishing but the opponent goalie is very strong in making miracle saves. i always have one on one opportunities always blocked I have a game where my team Inter lost to Frosinone 0-1 where i have double of both shots outside and shots inside. wherein the second attempt of my opponent inside is the goal winning, and every thing I throw against that team is always saved by their goalie who seems to make saves as miraculous as Neuer or Buffon. The goalie is just 22 yrs old, omg, named nicola leali. It seems that in this game, the goalie is always at advantage agains players, even in one on ones. That's even ridiculous! That is why no matter how much opportunities you make, it would mean nothing, because they just make every goalie very very strong, in order to keep from having high score results.

[HUNT3R]

Might want to read the thread first before making wild, inaccurate statements.

[Guest]

Not a great first post, super-keepers are a myth.

[Silver Twilight Sparkle]

In all seriousness, i do think the finishing is really awful in this version, but it does not affect just you (like people have said the game does not differentiate between player and AI), i see me and the AI miss constantly easy chances. But i can create so many chances (against weaker teams) that i still can score frequently in matches, however it takes the fun out of the game to see a striker clean through and be more surprised when he scores than when he misses.

If you really wanna do something about it try posting in the bugs forum because here is just for discussion. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/447320-One-on-Ones-barely-never-go-in

[qwerty22]

The ME is so poor that the only way it can represent the AI beating you is from a bog standard rebonded set piece instead of a proper tactical tweak....Even the days of the dreaded switch to 4-2-4 were more realistic!

[Dagenham_Dave]

The ME is so poor that the only way it can represent the AI beating you is from a bog standard rebonded set piece instead of a proper tactical tweak

Why even bother posting wildly inaccurate rubbish like this?