SI can we have a realistic 3D match engine please!!!

[cynet]

See Fifa12 is getting a new overhaul match engine, wonder if SI could try and muster the same.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a320677/fifa-12-video-leak-shows-realistic-tackles-injuries.html

[Robert the Spud]

You must be kidding. Are you seriously trying to compare Fifa and FM? This will never be Fifa. the ME will improve over time but personally i find it pretty damn good as it is.

EDIT: haha realistic, then you see Walcott playing like Ronaldinho. No. It does look beautiful though, but not for FM.

[cynet]

IF i see the 3D match engine looking like Fifa12 then i would be impressed, but right now it's no where near the same on quality, watching GK's stand there like wooden top's doesn't wet my apatite.

[Cougar2010]

What parts of FM's ME need an overhaul in your opinion?

It can't be easy getting the balance right between all the different variables but we've seen constant improvement in FM's ME over the last 5/6/7 years and what we have now is very good IMO.

That said it can always be improved and PaulC has mentioned in other threads about improving ball physics in the future which may mean a large overhaul of the ME to incorporate it.

You also need to consider what role the 3d graphics play and whether the issues you see are down to the ME or the graphics "best" representation of what the ME has calculated.

Looking at the link I don't see anything there that isn't already in FM to some degree.

[CaptainPlanet]

I would rather they fixed the gameplay before even looking at the graphics and animation

[RBKalle]

So the OP wants a FOOTBALL MANAGEMENT game having the 3d match engine of a FOOTBALL "SIMULATION" game?!

Nonsense...

FM's forte is the complexity of the management part of the game (surprised eh?), of which the 3D match engine is just a "bonus feature" introduced to improve the feeling of the game and to complement the tactical approach of a match.

Sure the ME is still perfectible and definitely could use some tweaking, first and foremost to give us an ACTUAL representation of what's happening "behind the scenes", instead of the current "but what you see in the ME may not be a 100% accurate reflection of what the game is doing and of what you told the game to do" excuse.

But all of that doesn't mean SI should just come up with a FIFA-like 3d match engine.

It's just like expecting an RTS game having the same graphics of FPS console games... It's not the point of the game...

[CaptainPlanet]

I wonder if there are similar posts on the Fifa forum saying they should have the management options that are in FM?

[Suzie MUFC]

You don't view match highlights to look at the wrinkles in the shirts, you watch the movement of the players to gain an idea of how things are going tactically.

[Erimus1876]

See Fifa12 is getting a new overhaul match engine, wonder if SI could try and muster the same.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a320677/fifa-12-video-leak-shows-realistic-tackles-injuries.html

As others have said, the graphics are unimportant (to a point). Its the M.E. game AI logic thats the cruicual aspect of any management game. Take Fifa Manager for example, its fantastic to look at graphically, with great animations and stadiums etc, but the game logic is complete garbage - at least a decade behind SI's. Seriously, watch a match on Fifa Manager 11 and then one on Football Manager 11. One is cartoon football, I'll let you guess which! And i was a Fifa Manager fan for years until I tried FM10 last year... no going back now

However, I do believe there must be improvement in the 3D for Football Manager. But it doesn't have to be anywhere near the graphical standard EA churns out. A few more animations would do. Even Championship Manager had smoother and better looking animations than FM11, I'd be happy if they matched that "standard" then concentrated soley on improving the match logic thereafter.

[Bobble2002]

championship managers 3d engine sucks. Its like a cartoon joke match . the players all run weird and its like a kids kick and rush game and then they all fall over when they kick the ball

I like the 3d match that FM has it just needs sorting out a bit like the way the striker and defender tackle, the striker falls over and 99 times out of 100 the game gives offside . Or the goalie falls over the goalline regularly with the ball

[heathxxx]

Considering I'm playing a management game, I think those graphics are pretty damn good.

When I watched that replay, the reaction of the Barcelona left-back and Messi, plus fans behind the goal, heads in hands after my team equalised with ten men... really added to the immersion for me personally.

I'm perfectly happy for the graphical aspect of the match engine to progress at the pace it has done, since it was implemented. There's already been huge strides since then.

When it comes to "realism", particularly perhaps with the way players move and position themselves, then sure... we can all spot situations that are somewhat dodgy. What we have to remember though, is that there's a huge quantity of variables we control and can mess around with tactically, that directly impacts things we see represented. There's also the matter of an immense quantity of player attribute variances that or on display every match. Considering all those factors, that no FIFA game will ever be a part of what's represented in one of their games, I'm pretty satisfied with FM's 3D representation of things.

I await your utterances of "fanboy" forthwith!

[Fabio MVP]

OP's a utter joke.

[mantralux]

What EA does with its FIFA series in terms of physics and graphics engine is just mind-blowing. It looks extremely real, especially in that last video of development footage from FIFA12.

BUT...the AI and gameplay is geared towards instant fun, 'TV-football' and lots of action in a short time period (I'd take a guess that most people opt for 5-6 minute halfs). There's little tactical realism in terms of how players behave off the ball, and it will always be that way since you're controlling one of the players in an unrealistic manner.

In a perfect world I want EA to admit "screw it, we can't make realistic simulation of player behaviour, research players to build a fantastic database, or present users with a good enough management simulation"...

...and then I want Sports Interactive to say "screw it, we're light years behind EA when it comes to graphics, graphical presentation, official licenses and ball/player physics"...

...and then I want 'Football Manager 2013 - featuring the graphics engine from FIFA13!'.

But sadly, it will never happen.

[AcidBurn]

I await your utterances of "fanboy" forthwith!

Bloody fanboy's again this place is full of them.(insert safety wink thing)

Expecting the match engine to look like fifa is unrealistic but I would love to see improved graphics which I am sure there will be as FM11 is much better than previous graphics in my opinion.

[Black_Waltz]

Like most of the people in this thread, I am aware of the genre I am playing. If I wanted a realistic match engine with real-world ball physics and true to life diving skills I would play Fifa (indeed, I do now and again). But if I want an in-depth, nuanced, tactical experience I play football manager. I am aware, however, that the increase in detail means there has to be a sacrifice in graphics. More than that, I actually LIKE football management games to be fairly lightweight. If I needed a gaming rig to play the game, I wouldn't be able to.

Maybe it's a generational thing. When I was a kid, the first Football Management game I played was Kenny Dalgleish Soccer Management. It's quite obvious, due to the small number of animations in the game, that they are nothing but a representation of the match - not an exact blow by blow account. With the football manager games of today, at least you can tell who is crossing well, who isn't, who is getting onto the ends of passes, who is fluffing their shots. You can tell that, yet still you have to understand that at its core the match engine is still a graphical representation of the stats behind the game, in contrast to Fifa where stats mean little.

I know which game I've put more hours into over the past year.

[vlobben]

At some point in the future SIgames need to completely redo the 3d graphics from bottom up, so that it isn't simply a "skin" over the match engine running underneath. Until that day, I'm very satisfied with the development the 3d view has gone through. Sure, it's not Fifa, but it's not trying to be Fifa either.

[BiggusD]

There are several years before FM's graphics and movement fluency can be compared to today's FIFA games. I look forward to that, but don't demand it.

[mantralux]

At some point in the future SIgames need to completely redo the 3d graphics from bottom up, so that it isn't simply a "skin" over the match engine running underneath.

Actually, the match engine doesn't have to be 100% dependant on the visual representation, so this "skin over match engine" structure works fine, even in the future.

The match engine is AI, tactical behaviour and some physics - basically the theoretical aspects of how the players are expected to move and behave on the pitch. The graphics are textures, player animation/detail and also some more physics (like collision and ball behaviour, etc). Theoretically the FM2012 3D match engine could look like FIFA12, without taking away too much of the current behaviour of the match engine.

In terms of player animation, high res textures, number of polygons, light effects, shadowing, etc, the only thing stopping FM2012 from looking like FIFA12 is the limited nature of Sports Interactive in terms of money, research and coding skills. Money being the big issue, as EA probably puts millions into researching physics and analysing player animations, have access to some of the world's best coders in the genre, can cover their match engine in officially licensed textures, and so on. Not knocking the SI coders, but if we're being realistic for a moment - SI is a fairly small developer in comparison to EA, and even in comparison to their own success with the FM series.

But, as many have pointed out, there is no real practical reason for FM to look like FIFA, except for immersion of course.

[Svenc]

LYou can tell that, yet still you have to understand that at its core the match engine is still a graphical representation of the stats behind the game, in contrast to Fifa where stats mean little..

The biggest difference aside from the obvious (management vs. action, viewing vs. direct control), is that FIFA/PES are happening in real-time 3D, whilst FM calculates a match and match events beforehand. But stats do matter in either series, as it is how a player's ability is being represented.

Technically, rigs half a decade old can run visuals like these flawlessly (I know from personal experience), but from FM09 to FM11 FM has already improved loads in terms of visuals. The pitch textures are arguably already better than on many recent FIFA PC versions, lighting has improved, so did animations, and so on. Currently it seems unrealistic to expect FM ever to look and feel like PES 2032, and criticism is to be expected just because of that. However, since we're talking realism, FM's overall representation of a football match is much closer to the sports than both FIFA and PES. Both series are great fun, but it is obvious that the people in charge have always confused Nike adverts and "Match Of The Day"-style summaries for the real thing.

[CityAndColour]

You don't view match highlights to look at the wrinkles in the shirts, you watch the movement of the players to gain an idea of how things are going tactically.

And then when your defender inexplicably runs away from the ball, presenting a clear chance for the AI, you're told "oh, well the 3D is only a representation".

SI doesn't need to get a FIFA standard graphical representation, they just need to work on getting defenders in the current 3D to stop acting like ********.

[Svenc]

And then when your defender inexplicably runs away from the ball, presenting a clear chance for the AI, you're told "oh, well the 3D is only a representation".

I've never known what that is even supposed to mean - anything audiovisual in any game is "a representation" of what is being calculated by the computer. Sometimes people make it sound as if what you see on the pitch in FM would be totally detached from what is (or rather was) being calculated, implying that viewing a match for analysis purposes would be useless - which ain't the case. If you're talking the occasional missing or awkwardly-synced 3d animation when an error occurs, then I understand, though.

I've seen various threads like these, and often times for every "It's just a representation" argument comes a guy or two who tries to explain errors tactically - which some people then tend to shrug off as yet another excuse. *shrug*

[Piethief100]

Yeah that's the dream. A game with the management depth of Football Manager with graphics of the caliber of FIFA. One day...

[Black_Waltz]

What is meant by the representation argument is that the defenders don't just 'run away from the ball'. It's that the calculations under the hood of the game has determined that the defenders won't get the ball and the forward does. I think the main argument is between those that understand this and those that don't, those who are fairly happy with the standard of the match engine, as it is pretty much a cosmetic addition to the series rather than a real game changer. Some people here want an experience closer to FIFA, yet on FIFA forums there are still complaints over the match engine. I can foresee that no matter what changes SI implement in the match engine there will always be those that complain it isn't good enough.

[tom_numbers]

Also, FIFA cheats. The scale is wrong intended to make the games more exciting.

FM aims for the "broadcast" appearance, so it looks like what you see if you're watching Sky Sports, and I think it's actually doing OK. Don't forget, FIFA have had a 15 year headstart on the matche engine, and it is their absolute main priority. To FM, it's a nice feature that has been gradually developed over the last few years.

Comparing FM to FIFA is naive.

[axehan1]

stick to the dots,2d is the bollocks,its wonderful football you just need to let your imagination go(crank up your own creative freedom to 20 lol).

[Svenc]

I think the main argument is between those that understand this and those that don't, those who are fairly happy with the standard of the match engine, as it is pretty much a cosmetic addition to the series rather than a real game changer.

"Cosmetic addition"? You know that you're claiming both the 2d and 3d view to be there fore sole entertainment purposes, rather than to be any kind of useful, don't you? I want that to be documented, as that is a heavy claim that'd kill off FM instantly. Surely "those that understand" don't do that by getting angry over the occasional hickup in the 3d view?

[AcidBurn]

I wonder if FM would sell more and attract new customers if it had the graphics of fifa.

[Svenc]

I wonder if FM would sell more and attract new customers if it had the graphics of fifa.

I've seen a lot of newcomers in the German community that have only considered buying in as soon as FM has gone 3D - switching over from FIFA Manager, which currently is the only football management game that sells in numbers in Germany. That is an educated guessed "yes" - but how much depends on how much FM will be behind the technical the status quo in any given iteration. FIFA Manager's engine is years behind the current FIFA's, and during normal match viewing (no zoomed in replays, etc.) doesn't look much crisper than FM currently looks at all. Except for the animations, naturally. A bit rough for one(?) guy to compete with EA Sport's library of motion captured animations.

[mantralux]

I wonder if FM would sell more and attract new customers if it had the graphics of fifa.

Without a doubt in the world, FM would skyrocket in sales and popularity. It's just how most of the gaming community works - good-looking graphics is a huge selling point.

[R0ca]

With the match engine in it's current form, there are issue's which SI have and are continuing to address. The limited number of animations make for some quite odd watching at the time especially when it comes to deflections and player movement. However what i would say is the ME has come on leaps and bounds since the advent of the 3D display, for those who watch and play enough i'm sure you'll have seen some of the easter eggs which are in there

I was playing last night and one of my players smashed the ball against the bar in the 2D match engine and the ball flew so high up in the air it actually looked as big as a regular desktop icon! Or how about when i scored a goal as my opposition were down to 10 men injured, i scored just as the player was walking back onto the pitch and as soon as the ball hit the net he had his head in his hands.

In my opinion the ME is good and is only going to get better.

[Fabio MVP]

EA will always have the best graphics, but it's the gameplay (ME most notably) which is the most important thing for me.

[tom_numbers]

To reinforce another point. FIFA has been developing their match engine since 1993, whereas FM has only been developing their 3D match engine since 2009.

Compare heathxxx's screenshot above of SI's third attempt at it with FIFA's third attempt at it;

I know this isn't even nearly a fair test, but it's worth remembering that FIFA have a 16 year head start and don't need to put even a quarter of the effort into the management side of the game.

[Fabio MVP]

Not valid comparison IMO as technology then and now wasn't the same, but still I see your point.

[Erimus1876]

Talking about graphics, anyone remember the very first original Football Manager from the 1980's Sinclair Spectrum?

Thankfully we've moved on a bit from those days.

[jon157uk]

Hang on a minute, haven't FIFA already tried this themselves anyway? With their FIFA Manager series? Which in my opinion is probably the worst football manger series ever, OK their 3D match always looked pretty good but the game play was nothing more than a bloody joke. FM 2011's match is pretty damn good, even with it's odd silly bits it's still totally acceptable for a management game and a lot of what you see is very believable football. I watch all my matches in 'full' mode and I'm very happy with what we've got and as others have stated, it's only going to get better too.

[Fabio MVP]

Talking about graphics, anyone remember the very first original Football Manager from the 1980's Sinclair Spectrum?

Thankfully we've moved on a bit from those days.

Awesome research back then as it's fairly realistic result!

[AcidBurn]

These threads always make me laugh people want better graphics and being as FIFA has awesome graphics they would want FM to have similar ones. There is nothing wrong with this opinion at all yet they are jumped on with comments like FIFA looks good but their match engine is awful. It is only the graphics people want not what is under them.

[Cougar2010]

To reinforce another point. FIFA has been developing their match engine since 1993, whereas FM has only been developing their 3D match engine since 2009.

I know this isn't even nearly a fair test, but it's worth remembering that FIFA have a 16 year head start and don't need to put even a quarter of the effort into the management side of the game.

Technically FM has had a 3d ME for many years, not sure quite how many - CM4 maybe?

Its just the 3d graphics that were introduced in 2009.

[Avelives]

It's just like expecting an RTS game having the same graphics of FPS console games... It's not the point of the game...

Exactly...

But, as many have pointed out, there is no real practical reason for FM to look like FIFA, except for immersion of course.

Yes there is, its called, money, time and hardware limitations... FM this year already has some people complaining they struggle to run it on decent computers with more than a few leagues running. My low/mid range PC can only handle about 3 leagues, add in the graphics, sounds, animations, skins etc for a fifa like ME and it would need a top of the line PC to run it, the hard drive space it would take up alone would be ridiculous. As pointed out above its the same practical reason that strategy games dont have the same graphics as say Crysis 2.

In theory its possible, but in reality totally impractical.

It is only the graphics people want not what is under them.

See above... Also lets wait and see if EA make FIFA manager 12 with that match engine shall we?

Judging by FIFA Manager 11 I very much doubt it...

(Apologies if youtube linkes arent allowed)

FIFA 11

FIFA Manager 11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkzUxe_mtqU&feature=related

And this from the company that owns that ME and all the animations, if it were as easy as just skinning an ME with good graphics dont you think EA might have done it already??

[mantralux]

Yes there is, its called, money, time and hardware limitations... FM this year already has some people complaining they struggle to run it on decent computers with more than a few leagues running. My low/mid range PC can only handle about 3 leagues, add in the graphics, sounds, animations, skins etc for a fifa like ME and it would need a top of the line PC to run it, the hard drive space it would take up alone would be ridiculous. As pointed out above its the same practical reason that strategy games dont have the same graphics as say Crysis 2.

In theory its possible, but in reality totally impractical.

How does that have anything to do with what I said?

[Ackter]

Talking about graphics, anyone remember the very first original Football Manager from the 1980's Sinclair Spectrum?

Thankfully we've moved on a bit from those days.

The sound effects should be added as an option to FM12 - they're so good they deserve to live on as legend.

Blip.

Blip.

Blip.

Bleep.

FART.

[Avelives]

How does that have anything to do with what I said?

Yeah apologies I just re-read what you said and I read it as 'But, as many have pointed out, there is no real practical reason for FM not to look like FIFA, except for immersion of course.'

Hands held up, sorry man total mistake on my part :o

[AcidBurn]

And this from the company that owns that ME and all the animations, if it were as easy as just skinning an ME with good graphics dont you think EA might have done it already??

I never once said it would be easy, I am saying people want better graphics and use FIFA as an example. There is nothing wrong with wanting better graphics in a modern game I am happy with them as they are but wouldn't mind them being better.

[Some Guy!]

The graphics get better every year. With the power needed to run what's under the hood though FIFA 11/12 type graphics just aren't a realistic target though.

[Some Guy!]

To reinforce another point. FIFA has been developing their match engine since 1993, whereas FM has only been developing their 3D match engine since 2009.

Compare heathxxx's screenshot above of SI's third attempt at it with FIFA's third attempt at it;

I know this isn't even nearly a fair test, but it's worth remembering that FIFA have a 16 year head start and don't need to put even a quarter of the effort into the management side of the game.

I would argue that they don't put any effort at all into the management side of things, but hey. I played a game as Man City for a laugh and its just silly. Nothing in that game at all from a management point of view. It's a good game though, just nothing like FM.

[Avelives]

I never once said it would be easy, I am saying people want better graphics and use FIFA as an example. There is nothing wrong with wanting better graphics in a modern game I am happy with them as they are but wouldn't mind them being better.

You dont get it, its not a case of it being 'not easy' its a case of it being more or less impossible. Like I said EAs own FIFA manager game doesnt even use the FIFA soccer ME and theres probably a good reason for that. If it were possible with modern hardware limitations, EA would already be doing it.

Just look at the difference between EAs FIFA soccer ME and manager ME from the same year, and theres your answer.

[anagain]

See Fifa12 is getting a new overhaul match engine, wonder if SI could try and muster the same.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a320677/fifa-12-video-leak-shows-realistic-tackles-injuries.html

FIFA is a different type of game that focuses on appearance. FM focuses on stats and detail, and I would not want SI to compromise the detail of FM for flair. There's no point to do so.

I shouldn't have thought it possible to concentrate on making a match engine that looks like FIFA without compromising elsewhere either. You'd be asking a lot of SI.

[heathxxx]

The sound effects should be added as an option to FM12 - they're so good they deserve to live on as legend.

Blip.

Blip.

Blip.

Bleep.

FART.

By far and above, the most accurate description I've read, when it comes to those sound effects.

[Ackter]

For future reference, the sound effect for a goal was: widdlywiddlywiddly

[AcidBurn]

Talking about graphics, anyone remember the very first original Football Manager from the 1980's Sinclair Spectrum?

Thankfully we've moved on a bit from those days.

That is one big goal even my strikers could score with goals that big.