SI can we have a realistic 3D match engine please!!!

[Svenc]

You dont get it, its not a case of it being 'not easy' its a case of it being more or less impossible. Like I said EAs own FIFA manager game doesnt even use the FIFA soccer ME and theres probably a good reason for that. If it were possible with modern hardware limitations, EA would already be doing it..

EA appears to hold limited interest in their manager series, as internationally (outside of German speaking territories) it just isn't all that succesful. They aren't developing FIFA Manager....

I could give you a few theories as to why Germany is this odd. A few of those include the damage that was done whenever an "English" football management game was torn to shreds by the press previously - this applied to Sports Interactive games as well. Whilst in stark contrast to the international press FIFA Manager is still seen in Germany as the premium product it isn't in my fair opinion, the limited coverage of Football Manager has much improved over recent years. Five years ago you'd be hard pressed to even find a review containing more than two paragraphs of "indepth" analysis such as "Contrary to FIFA Managers's 3D play, the match view consists of 2d blops pretending to be football players", "There is no sound to speak of" coupled with the equally indepth conclusion that the game would be "ugly, but pretty realistic". That has changed, though coverage is limited, some of it has still grown remarkably considering that the game isn't even released anymore. Until recently there used to be a multiple-page review for each iteration (even FM Live) in Germany's most popular PC gaming magazine, print coverage that got only just recently axed, presumably because the dwindling sales had forced the editors to cut some content.

Also FIFA Manager is in many ways the successor of the "On The Ball" series, which used to be the most popular management game in Germany until the head designer moved on to... you guessed that right: to work on Total Club and FIFA Manager. On The Ball continued a for a few versions thereafter but ever since the switch Germany has been all FIFA Manager territory, and "On The Ball" is put on hiatus for the time being - think what happened to Championship Manager and you're pretty close, I guess.

[mantralux]

Like I said EAs own FIFA manager game doesnt even use the FIFA soccer ME and theres probably a good reason for that.

The reason is tied in with time limitations and marketing, not technical difficulties. It's not possible to adapt the latest graphics engine to the management game in time for release. And in terms of marketing, the graphics engine is one of FIFA's main selling points - using it in FIFA Manager would take away from FIFA itself. And since it's not even the same development team, I doubt the people who makes FIFA just wants to share all their hard work for nothing. Haven't played it in a while, but if I remember correctly they donate or internally license last year's match engine to the FIFA Manager series.

Technically there is no problem at all having the FIFA graphics engine in FIFA Manager. Neither would it be technically impossible to have the FIFA graphics engine be controlled by the FM match engine algorithms - it's just input at the end of the day. Meaning: the code that is running the FM match engine is just telling the graphical representation what to display.

People seem to confuse the mechanics with the presentation - the mechanics is all the movement, artificial intelligence, player behaviour, rules, randomisation. It can be presented in any way, shape or form, as long as the mechanics line up with the graphical boundaries. As long as the physics/graphics engine can interpret the input you can present the mechanics however you want.

[cynet]

OP's a utter joke.

What for wanting something more Superior than what we have now, something staying stagnant would please you then?

[tom_numbers]

What for wanting something more Superior than what we have now, something staying stagnant would please you then?

For coming into this so poorly informed. Some simple research and logical thought would lead you to most of the points made in this thread as to why FM doesn't look like FIFA now, and is unlikely to do so.

[Cougar2010]

What for wanting something more Superior than what we have now, something staying stagnant would please you then?

But FM isn't staying stagnant, thats the point.

3d introduced in FM09, improved in FM10, more improvement made in FM11.

The ME itself improves year on year.

Other areas are revamped/improved/new things added with each release.

[Svenc]

The reason is tied in with time limitations and marketing, not technical difficulties. It's not possible to adapt the latest graphics engine to the management game in time for release. And in terms of marketing, the graphics engine is one of FIFA's main selling points - using it in FIFA Manager would take away from FIFA itself. And since it's not even the same development team, I doubt the people who makes FIFA just wants to share all their hard work for nothing. Haven't played it in a while, but if I remember correctly they donate or internally license last year's match engine to the FIFA Manager series.

Actually the 2004 version or thereabouts had used the 3d assets of the FIFA 2004 version as well. Some of this is guessing, but I think some of the following reasoning might ring true as to why FIFA Manager doesn't ship with updated FIFA assets year-in, year- out: Firstly, see what I argued about the interest EA has in FIFA Manager - were it not for Bright Future, the series was likely dead for half a decade now. Second, in Bright Future we're talking an independent development studio that is trying to shoehorn a management game into what is a FIFA arcade engine - an engine they have not developed themselves. Imagine the issues that would arise, considering the many problems they still steem to have despite not having switched engines in years.

I think neither of those two guesses are far from the truth.

[~RosT~]

I would like to see more anim. and smoother anim.

[Some Guy!]

I would like to see more anim. and smoother anim.

I'd like to see full words, and proper sentences.

I'm kidding, I'm sure they'll add more in the future.

[heathxxx]

For future reference, the sound effect for a goal was: widdlywiddlywiddly

Now for some strange reason, that made me think of this...

[Brian Shanahan]

What EA does with its FIFA series in terms of physics and graphics engine is just mind-blowing. It looks extremely real, especially in that last video of development footage from FIFA12.

BUT...the AI and gameplay is geared towards instant fun, 'TV-football' and lots of action in a short time period (I'd take a guess that most people opt for 5-6 minute halfs). There's little tactical realism in terms of how players behave off the ball, and it will always be that way since you're controlling one of the players in an unrealistic manner.

In a perfect world I want EA to admit "screw it, we can't make realistic simulation of player behaviour, research players to build a fantastic database, or present users with a good enough management simulation"...

...and then I want Sports Interactive to say "screw it, we're light years behind EA when it comes to graphics, graphical presentation, official licenses and ball/player physics"...

...and then I want 'Football Manager 2013 - featuring the graphics engine from FIFA13!'.

But sadly, it will never happen.

Mainly because if you're going for one then you can't have the other. Most games that go fro graphics these days have to minimise AI development, bug testing and many other areas of game development which should be essential to the process of making a game.

The other factor is, why would EA want to help a rival? I feel that the only reason why there's games like FIFA manager out there is to try and do in the dedicated studios like SI, and these games would disappear the minute SI folded as a developer.

[Brian Shanahan]

These threads always make me laugh people want better graphics and being as FIFA has awesome graphics they would want FM to have similar ones. There is nothing wrong with this opinion at all yet they are jumped on with comments like FIFA looks good but their match engine is awful. It is only the graphics people want not what is under them.

I think the main reason for this is that all too often people looking for better graphics are equating the match engine with the graphical representation, either through the simple use of the wrong name, or through the conflation of what they see on 3D being what the game is trying to represent.

Now I'm all for improving graphics, if only to make what is seen a lot more understandable, but I do think that those calling for FIFA level graphics are forgetting the simple fact that for any annual release game to prioritise graphics means to totally ignore many other parts of the game which are essential. I look at my friend playing FIFA 11 and am often shocked at how stupid the AI actually is in that game, doing stuff that I wouldn't see at a real-life U-6 match, never mind when I'm playing FM.

[Avelives]

The reason is tied in with time limitations and marketing, not technical difficulties. It's not possible to adapt the latest graphics engine to the management game in time for release. And in terms of marketing, the graphics engine is one of FIFA's main selling points - using it in FIFA Manager would take away from FIFA itself. And since it's not even the same development team, I doubt the people who makes FIFA just wants to share all their hard work for nothing. Haven't played it in a while, but if I remember correctly they donate or internally license last year's match engine to the FIFA Manager series.

Technically there is no problem at all having the FIFA graphics engine in FIFA Manager. Neither would it be technically impossible to have the FIFA graphics engine be controlled by the FM match engine algorithms - it's just input at the end of the day. Meaning: the code that is running the FM match engine is just telling the graphical representation what to display.

Its got nothing to do with marketing and time, even EAs older say FIFA06 graphics engine is miles better than the current one FIFA manager uses (and as someone above said an older version did use a FIFA football ME, when FIFA was still pretty rough and therefor easier to integrate into a manager game). EA is a massive corporation, granted the two titles are developed by different teams, but if they wanted to use an older outdated version of the art assets and animations from FIFA football im sure it would be no issue for some internal deal to be done. Whether the team who develop are indie or not, they are under the EA umbrella and as such have the advantages that go with it, like all the licenses and access to existing fifa football assets. Granted they probably wouldnt want them using the most current version but the 2 yr old MEs would be no bother to anyone.

And there is a technical limitation. Its simply a hardware issue. FM (and to a lesser extent FIFA Manager) are already massive games that require as much memory and technical grunt to run as FIFA Football. To assume you could shoehorn the two games together and suffer no problems with hardware limitations is ridiculous. Like I said its technically possible, but totally impractical. About 5% of people who currently play FM would have computers powerful enough to run it. And the hardrive space it would need would be utterly silly.

People seem to confuse the mechanics with the presentation - the mechanics is all the movement, artificial intelligence, player behaviour, rules, randomisation. It can be presented in any way, shape or form, as long as the mechanics line up with the graphical boundaries. As long as the physics/graphics engine can interpret the input you can present the mechanics however you want.

No thats not what im doing, but a good graphical representation is not just about skinning with some fancy graphics. Firstly even for the FIFA manager game the entire underlying code controlling the graphics would have to be rewritten to interact with the ME, and where appropriate certain animations and 'moves' removed which were not possible in the ME to avoid pointless assets being added, thats assuming you could somehow overcome the hardware limitations in the first place, and everyone owned supercomputers.

Simple matter is FIFA is a massive game, one of EAs biggest sellers outside the USA. FM is one of the biggest sellers in Europe year in year out for the PC. EA are not total mugs they didnt become one of the richest largest developers of sports titles for nothing. If there was a way of taking a quality, deep, management title and marrying it up with their snazzy FIFA match graphics they would have done it years ago... they havent, theres a good reason for that

[mantralux]

Its got nothing to do with marketing and time

It has everything to do with marketing and time, actually. There is no technical impossibility in using the physics/graphics engine from FIFA11 in FIFA Manager 11 (or whatever it's called). The graphics engine is just the visual presentation of the input.

To assume you could shoehorn the two games together and suffer no problems with hardware limitations is ridiculous. Like I said its technically possible, but totally impractical. About 5% of people who currently play FM would have computers powerful enough to run it. And the hardrive space it would need would be utterly silly.

Impractical has nothing to do whether it's technically possible or not. I never said it would be practical, I just said it's technically possible, since it's just input at the end of the day. It really doesn't matter if the input comes from 22 people controlling one player each (human input, like in FIFA), or if it's done artificially (AI input, like in FM).

No thats not what im doing, but a good graphical representation is not just about skinning with some fancy graphics. Firstly even for the FIFA manager game the entire underlying code controlling the graphics would have to be rewritten to interact with the ME, and where appropriate certain animations and 'moves' removed which were not possible in the ME to avoid pointless assets being added, thats assuming you could somehow overcome the hardware limitations in the first place, and everyone owned supercomputers.

No, you wouldn't need a "supercomputer" - FM isn't 'live', and therefor isn't dependant on live input. You wouldn't need more power than you'd need to run FIFA or FM independently. And graphics usually scale back for those with weaker hardware.

If there was a way of taking a quality, deep, management title and marrying it up with their snazzy FIFA match graphics they would have done it years ago... they havent, theres a good reason for that

There is a way, but it would be merging the two titles together. The only reason EA hasn't done what you're suggesting is because they don't have the ability to do it. They've tried with FIFA Manager but haven't even come close to FM in terms of accurate databases or realism. Sports Interactive are light years ahead of EA in that department, just as EA is light years ahead of SI when it comes to 3D graphics/physics.

[MSCCG]

I want to be the manager and sit on the bench watching the players

[Avelives]

Impractical has nothing to do whether it's technically possible or not. I never said it would be practical, I just said it's technically possible, since it's just input at the end of the day. It really doesn't matter if the input comes from 22 people controlling one player each (human input, like in FIFA), or if it's done artificially (AI input, like in FM)..

Well done you proved its 'technically' possible

Lots of things are techincally possible, liking building a space elevator, but that doesnt mean they will ever happen.

No, you wouldn't need a "supercomputer" - FM isn't 'live', and therefor isn't dependant on live input. You wouldn't need more power than you'd need to run FIFA or FM independently. And graphics usually scale back for those with weaker hardware..

Logic dictates otherwise, you clearly have no idea what goes into making a game and how hard it would be to marry many gigs of animations, sound, and skins with even more gigs of data and make it playable.

There is a way, but it would be merging the two titles together. The only reason EA hasn't done what you're suggesting is because they don't have the ability to do it. They've tried with FIFA Manager but haven't even come close to FM in terms of accurate databases or realism. Sports Interactive are light years ahead of EA in that department, just as EA is light years ahead of SI when it comes to 3D graphics/physics.

NO there isnt or it would be happening. Even if we think Fifa manager sucks, it still sells a fair amount of titles, if it were possible to use up to date graphics engines easily they would be doing it. EA arent totall idiots.

[grade]

Personally I want to have middle ground between the two.

What I mean is, SI is long way to achieve the graphics quality that Fifa has, but FM 3D graphics is still very poor, because I still see players running sideways since we as human beings are yet to perfect that skill, so since we only run forward the players in FM should do the same, the falling to ground still looks like one second is up the next his down on the ground, tackling seems the two players are dancing eachother, not to mention the sensation in those times they are tresspassing on eachother, Goalkeeper motion of dive defending as improved but still has the sensation of like players falling down.

The 3D may look as it is now, that I don't really care, but I care that the motion of the players to be realistic as possible and I want to be at the level of Fifa. I want players disputing a ball sholder to sholder, I want that one player makes a slide and the player stumbles on the player and falls realistic, I want GK to defend many type of dive saves from stretching himself to defend well place shot to a defence by any means necessary and i mean defending with the legs those lucky defences that GK doesn't know how he defended that ball. I also want goals that GK touches the ball and the ball enters on the net. Simple stuff like that.

I just want realistic motions of the players, but don't care about the quality of graphics if i see rinkles in players face and shirt or not, as long as the motion of players make have more fun and enthusiastic to see the 3D match. if graphics are improved with that or not, is always welcome by anyone.

I think SI needs to improve motion of the players in 3D, but if they don't have the personnel to do this, how about Sega give a hand to record player movements? I mean they have experience in making Virtual Tennis and have realistic movements. If they want volunteers to record my movements, i'm the first one to do so, but SI\Sega needs to pay for the ticket of the shuttle and hotel to stay in London on the planet earth ;)

[BiggusD]

Noone is arguing that SI should produce FIFA graphics or EA should produce the FM ME. Why argue so angrily about something noone really talks about?

They are two different developers, competing, even. They will never go together and produce a title that would compete both of their own franchises. What people are saying here is simply that it would be nice if they did. Arguing about technical or marketing issues of such a theoretical entity as a FIFA-FM release is a complete waste of time and energy...

[milnerpoint]

Personally i wouldnt care if the 3d side of things didnt improve much over the next few years, get the core aspects of the game right and then let them worry about how fancy it looks id say.

[Flohrinho]

I would love to see the current ME spiced up with great graphics and animations it would really add loads towards the atmosphere of games. As it stands now the 3D mode is so ugly I rather play 2D classic which is also kind of fun because you imagine how the goals might have looked and the celebration afterwards in your head and using your fantasy is never a bad thing, I guess?

But I would definitely kill for a game with the in depth in management and ME that the FM series has already and the 3D game looks of FIFA12 .

Ah and while we are at it can you please some original stadium atmosphere something that makes you really feel like you're there, with fans singing, booing and applauding? If you guys manage to get a good game day atmosphere through good graphics and sound into this game it will be almost perfect.

[bumchin]

op,you had too many toys when you were young by the sounds of it....no imagination.i love watching the goal celebrations and stuff.

[Ty]

If FM had amazing FIFA graphics, I think it would take away some of the fun for me.

I enjoy the graphics we already have!

Also, not everyone has the ability to play 'top end FIFA' graphics on their laptop.

[crouchaldinho]

Let's just go back to 2D classic.

[grade]

Let's just go back to 2D classic.

I'm with you, on this one.

[Kriss]

Let's just go back to 2D classic.

I already did, you can trust a blob to not sleep around:D

[heathxxx]

I already did, you can trust a blob to not sleep around:D

Oh really?

(Censorship courtesy of a blobby high court injunction)

[Lazaru5]

Censorship courtesy of a blobby high court injunction.

is it a certain welsh wizard and a certain welsh witch? (well I bet Giggsy thinks she's one now )

[crouchaldinho]

Is it safe to talk about him now? Let's call him Bryan Riggs just to be safe.

[tom_numbers]

It's a part of the Lib Dems election campiagn - their MPs are going to use their parliamentary powers to reveal who is taking out super injunctions

[Avelives]

If FM had amazing FIFA graphics, I think it would take away some of the fun for me.

I enjoy the graphics we already have!

Also, not everyone has the ability to play 'top end FIFA' graphics on their laptop.

No according to mantralux it requires no extra horsepower to run fifa graphics with an FM back end. Its literally as easy as bolting the two together...

[Nic!]

Miles did say though, the ultimate goal is to get FIFA-like match-engine graphics. Just not for FM12, or 13, or 14.

[Brian Shanahan]

Noone is arguing that SI should produce FIFA graphics or EA should produce the FM ME. Why argue so angrily about something noone really talks about?

I don't know if you've noticed but the OP is a demand to SI that they do exactly what you're saying no-one is asking for.

[Svenc]

Yeah, I think prior to FM 09 he claimed SI's goal would be to also have the best-looking football game on the marktet. But I think Miles was just being overly enthusiastic. They won't be able to compete for tech at this rate, nor would they need to - with some robust art and keeping halfway up with technology FM will be able to likely hold its own. With much improved stadium lighting, pitch textures, player models and animations the 3d has already gone a long way from where it was in 2008. I'm enjoying it a great deal.

No according to mantralux it requires no extra horsepower to run fifa graphics with an FM back end. Its literally as easy as bolting the two together...

In all fairness, technically better 3d assets are very much possible in the 3d representation of a match. In Sega's oldish Virtual Striker FM has already borrowed from an arcade 3d engine when 3d first came about. Of course the demands placed on video chips would increase with better assets, but I don't know what you're trying to argue when you're claiming the requirements to quadruple - we're talking representation of the single match you may or may not opt to view in 3D at any given point, and that has little to do with what is being calculated elsewhere. Not sure if the fluidity of moves as seen in PES and FIFA is possible with FM's core engine, but that is something else. Talking about demands: Just about any dedicated video card bought in the last four ears can run PES-like graphics, even in the current sub 50 quid segment. These are multiplatform games meant to also run on a console generation that is struggling to keep up with contemporary PC hardware. You don't buy a laptop running integrated chips and expect to do much 3d gaming on that, and FM is struggling with some of those as is. In FM the 3d is wholly optional to boot anyways.

Despite EA holding limited interested in FIFA Manager and Bright Future arguably being the sole reason the series does still exist: It isn't a question IF Fifa Manager will include a newer FIFA engine, or at least updated assets, it is only a question of when they do - unless it gets axed within the next two years that is. The engine currently in use isn't half as ancient as you point it out to be, and it was upgraded with FIFA 09 PC assets two season or so ago.

[thehollowman]

It's not really just a case of making an engine like Fifa. Fifa is one of the worlds biggest video game franchises, and they are at the cutting edge of technology. EA has a massive amount of money being pumped into the graphics technology, building engines to fuel Fifa, Madden, NHL, etc. Almost the entire development style is building the engine. SI would need a team as big as Fifas to JUST work on the graphics engine, and then a team to work on the rest of the game. Development costs would be massive, and sales would not match it. It's not a trivial thing to do, nor feasible nor even desirable.

[BiggusD]

I don't know if you've noticed but the OP is a demand to SI that they do exactly what you're saying no-one is asking for.

Well, there is a difference between "FIFA graphics" and "FIFA-like graphics". The guys above my post were arguing about whether or not SI should buy the rights to the FIFA graphics engine, or that there should be a cooperation somehow. At least that was what it looked like. This whole discussion is a bit ... off, as it is about particularities regarding computer power, legal problems, marketing issues and programming code for an idea that is so hypothetical that it is moving well into metaphysics.

EA will certainly improve both graphics and the match engine, and certainly, so will SI. It is beyond me why anyone would want to get all emotional over a non-issue...

Discussing what should be the strategic emphasis of FM the coming years, however, that is an actual debate.

[tom_numbers]

I was wondering about another point...

Since FM doesn't have the right licensing to include images of English Premier League players, at what point do the graphics have to be legally held back to stop them from clearly being in that players image. They can get away with it now because faces aren't specific, but would there be a point where they can't advance the appearance of players because they'd be too good?

[Flohrinho]

Let's just go back to 2D classic.

I already did. Mainly because you have a much batter tactical overview then the 3D modes, the only one I considered to be ok is vertical scrolling, not the zoomed one. The problem is the second you get closer to the game and see all those weird animations and stuff it totally ruins watching the game for me, so I rather stick with 2D and my imagination.

And let's not be kidding the graphics are just horrible for a game in the year 2011, I wouldn't even let the "simulation" excuse count. I mean the EA FIFA-Series is also considered a sports simulation, the difference is they focus on the on field action so it's clear that they need to have much better graphics then a game that focuses on the off-field action.

For me it's also not so much about beautifully rendered 3D players it's more about the atmosphere. I want to see the flares burn when I play one of the Istanbul clubs at their home stadium, I want to see my players go mad after scoring the winner in the 93. minute, I want to here the fans of my club sing it's hymn, while the players celebrate a special goal, there should be confrontation on the field between the players.

I mean football is all about emotions and a good 3D engine that can deliver the atmosphere of a Cup final or a rivals match as real as possible will help with this imo.

Yes I know creating a 3D engine that can deliver some higher degree of realism on the field is massive work but then again you guys produce the biggest football managing series on the planet and one of the best selling computer game series off all times.

You wouldn't even have to create all of the content yourself. If there is one thing proven about this game it's the massive amount of time we players will invest to make this game "perfect". I'm pretty sure the moment you would have a 3D engine that allows to create real looking 3D faces for players by us players you wouldn't even have to do most of the work, it's actually a part a lot of us players enjoy about this game the feeling that we can participate creating it's content and I bet every major FM-Fansite would soon be having a 3D faces, a fan chants section and all the stuff to make this game as real as possible.

For me graphics are much more then just shiny, shiny pixels it's all about the atmosphere you create with them and that's something where this game falls really short at the moment "It's all over clubX has won the game" that's what you get for winning a game even if it was the CL final...

Of all the things you could do to improve this game I'm pretty sure improving the atmosphere, through graphics (incl. animations), sounds and action on the field, would give this game the biggest possible leap forward as far as the fun factor is concerned and even though I consider this game to be a 90% game those improvements could make it a 99% game in an instant.

But then again that's just my opinion and I may be totally wrong in the eyes of others, which is fine with me since I really wouldn't have any sleepless nights if SI came out and said "this will never happen" but I sure as hell will dream many nights about how awesome this game would be if it had an truly awesome 3D mode.

[crouchaldinho]

I already did. Mainly because you have a much batter tactical overview then the 3D modes, the only one I considered to be ok is vertical scrolling, not the zoomed one. The problem is the second you get closer to the game and see all those weird animations and stuff it totally ruins watching the game for me, so I rather stick with 2D and my imagination.

A man after my own heart. Spot on.

For me, FM runs on the world's most powerful graphics chip – imagination.

[Kazza]

Oh no there's no going back - dreadful those pesky little 2d blobs.

3D onwards and upwards (i am one of those that when listening to footie on the radio always get mixed up re the commentators "he's coming from left to right, switching across to the byline on the other side - but which left to right, what other side!! "

My imagination is obviously skewered?

[x42bn6]

Just about any dedicated video card bought in the last four ears can run PES-like graphics, even in the current sub 50 quid segment. These are multiplatform games meant to also run on a console generation that is struggling to keep up with contemporary PC hardware. You don't buy a laptop running integrated chips and expect to do much 3d gaming on that, and FM is struggling with some of those as is. In FM the 3d is wholly optional to boot anyways.

Although the engine is certainly "3D", the quality of it is laughable and certainly shouldn't require an ATI Radeon 9800 (the advertised specification). This is just short of the Crysis demo, for crying out loud: http://www.crysisdemo.com/crysis-system-requirements.htm

I have absolutely no doubt that the 3D graphics are rather wasteful at the moment - while it is unlikely to be at Crysis (low) levels, there is a huge difference between Crysis low and FM11 3D - a gap that quite frankly should be able to be bridged given a bit of effort. And let's not start on the background process here - Crysis is very demanding on the CPU too.

To me, 3D is rather meaningless since I use 2D, but I have absolutely no doubt the graphics engine can be vastly-improved with no hardware requirement increases. I wouldn't expect huge amounts of detail that are pointless with the camera views we have in-game, but they should be able to be improved no doubt.

And I really don't know why people are trying to prioritise SI's work for them - SI went for an unpopular 3D engine which turned out pretty good and a lot of people are now using it. Let SI prioritise things - let customers say, "we want better graphics." And, quite frankly, this should be possible without any hardware increases, as SI simply aren't using graphics hardware to their best by any stretch.

[Lupe Lebô]

I think the 3d mode has room to improve, more fans animations, flags, banners, wet field, new stadiums... but don't need to be a new fifa.

[Svenc]

For me graphics are much more then just shiny, shiny pixels it's all about the atmosphere you create with them and that's something where this game falls really short at the moment "It's all over clubX has won the game" that's what you get for winning a game even if it was the CL final...

That has always been the case, and whether is be 2d or 3d, that is where imagination kicks in no matter what kind of match presentation. It's still far easier to pretend you're getting to watch a genuine match of football in FM than watching anyone play FIFA or PES for that simple reason: The core engine of FM is so much closer to the real sports that all the better art assets from EA and Konami can't make up for the fact they're running a 90 minute sports cut short to a cigarette break - and all the oddities that go with it. Which is awesome for the rampant footie gamepad action both are trying to offer, mind, but watching a match and pretending it to be real is pretty hard even with the fans singing your team's name.

Although the engine is certainly "3D", the quality of it is laughable and certainly shouldn't require an ATI Radeon 9800 (the advertised specification). This is just short of the Crysis demo, for crying out loud: http://www.crysisdemo.com/crysis-system-requirements.htm

I have absolutely no doubt that the 3D graphics are rather wasteful at the moment - while it is unlikely to be at Crysis (low) levels, there is a huge difference between Crysis low and FM11 3D - a gap that quite frankly should be able to be bridged given a bit of effort. And let's not start on the background process here - Crysis is very demanding on the CPU too.

Technically FM shouldn't be that demanding on the CPU whilst a match is being displayed - after all, the actual events are being calculated beforehand you get to view any of the action. This isn't real-time 3D (nor 2d, or text, for that matter). And the Radeon 9800 is likely an entry-level requirement, as there are Shader 2.0 features being used in the 3d display that deem a Radeon 9500 and up a must have. But overall, yep, the system requirements are a bit steep considering what's on offer - as often the case with developers employing little experience in 3D. I second that. For any modern gaming machine visuals such as found in FIFA 11 PC are an utter snoozefest producing multiple times the frame rate required for smooth as silk gameplay. This is like running 1999's Counterstrike on a 2007ish Intel Core2Duo.

But FM's visuals have improved loads from where the FM09 demo was. Apart from the animations, there's occasionally little (if any) difference between FM and current FIFA Manager anymore during match viewing - and there are even parts that do look better. Some of the lighting, and pitch texturing, f'r instance. The proportions have always been way off in FIFA anyways. So it's an ongoing process. The argument then seems to be as to how quick that is happening, and how much priority is put into it.

[bigdunk]

Technically FM shouldn't be that demanding on the CPU whilst a match is being displayed - after all, the actual events are being calculated beforehand you get to view any of the action.

It's background-processing other matches while it's displaying your match though, depending on how many other matches there are to be calculated.

[x42bn6]

Technically FM shouldn't be that demanding on the CPU whilst a match is being displayed - after all, the actual events are being calculated beforehand you get to view any of the action. This isn't real-time 3D (nor 2d, or text, for that matter).

I wouldn't be surprised if the game does it in real-time - I think it generates a random seed and stores this seed somewhere, and all events are simulated from this seed, which speeds things up slightly but not much (this is probably why saved matches are so small in terms of file size). Delayed real-time implies a queue that can add a rather substantial overhead plus you have the timing issue which is difficult to work with in games. It is usually always better to work in real-time, especially since the game only has 22 "agents" to model.

[shwan]

tbh ME is good, we don't need FIFA one at least by now,

meanwhile we need more animations some actions are not well represented in 3D

[Guest markyosullivan]

IF i see the 3D match engine looking like Fifa12 then i would be impressed, but right now it's no where near the same on quality, watching GK's stand there like wooden top's doesn't wet my apatite.

Oh so you want the graphics of FIFA on FM? Well that means my computer will no longer be able to run FM.

[Guest markyosullivan]

Considering I'm playing a management game, I think those graphics are pretty damn good.

When I watched that replay, the reaction of the Barcelona left-back and Messi, plus fans behind the goal, heads in hands after my team equalised with ten men... really added to the immersion for me personally.

I'm perfectly happy for the graphical aspect of the match engine to progress at the pace it has done, since it was implemented. There's already been huge strides since then.

When it comes to "realism", particularly perhaps with the way players move and position themselves, then sure... we can all spot situations that are somewhat dodgy. What we have to remember though, is that there's a huge quantity of variables we control and can mess around with tactically, that directly impacts things we see represented. There's also the matter of an immense quantity of player attribute variances that or on display every match. Considering all those factors, that no FIFA game will ever be a part of what's represented in one of their games, I'm pretty satisfied with FM's 3D representation of things.

I await your utterances of "fanboy" forthwith!

That's a lot better than it looks on my PC. Wish I had a good PC.

[grade]

Oh so you want the graphics of FIFA on FM? Well that means my computer will no longer be able to run FM.

That is why there is 2D, for lower spec computers can run FM. And if It doesn't, then my advice is put some money to the side, like I do, when you reach that value, buy a new PC.

[Anti Spiral]

I keep mine on 2D anyway. I prefer it that way.

[jozza800]

Am I the only one who thinks that a full engine like FIFA/Pro Evo just wouldnt work? I personally think it would slow the game up in terms of flow (not in a hardware sense). I, as i imagine alot of players do, play with a quick highlights speed. Which works fine for a zoomed out / overview feel of the game. But If it was to run at say a FIFA/PES speed it would take forever.

The current views within the game are perfectly fine. The graphics are adequate enough. I think what would really help is if they opened it up for the graphics/skinning kiddies. The SI team obviously have loads to do on each part of the game and so cant focus all their attention to a single part. But putting the code out their and letting modders have a go could lead to some good results. It happens alot on other games, if you have played PES on PC you will know what I mean.

[Mansleg]

I think it would benefit from a tad more polish and detail rather than overhaul and enhancement. Animations are pretty poor at the moment and stadiums still need a lot of work. I'd be happy for the 3D to remain at its current level graphically but it's still not aesthetically pleasing to the eye.