Total Football (Very Fluid)

[couragewolf101]

Gonna be testing tinkering the mentality by shifting the two BPDs to be stoppers, and the DLP to be on support duties.

[gpassosbh]

I tried the same formation from picture above, but did not get it all Positive. So I reached to this:

Complete Forward and Ball Playing Def are set do Balanced. All other positions set to Positive. I'll test this with Barcelona, simulation 1 season.

[couragewolf101]

Just casually thrashing Alaves with the new BPD stoppers / DLP support.

[couragewolf101]

15 minutes ago, gpassosbh said:

I tried the same formation from picture above, but did not get it all Positive. So I reached to this:

Complete Forward and Ball Playing Def are set do Balanced. All other positions set to Positive. I'll test this with Barcelona, simulation 1 season.

Don't forget to turn on dribble less / more disciplined so they pass more.

From the all matches i've seen, it plays a lot like a cross between classic gegenpress and tiki-taka- and I've seen my AMR contribute in defensive right back halves.

[yonko]

On 13/11/2020 at 06:52, NotSoSpecialOne said:

They will be on cautious as Focus doesn't affect mentality in 21.

Correct. I noticed Focus play doesn't affect mentalities anymore. But it has more affect in terms of how midfielders support play in area of focus. 

[Luizinho]

On 26/05/2020 at 19:12, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Great thread as usual - I've read it three or four times already.

I had a question on what you did if Joao Felix was injured? I assume you had a couple of players that could slot into the F9 role without too much complication. However did you ever change the Striker role in order to use different type of player there (ie. Embalo?)?

Edited November 15, 2020 by Luizinho

[ElJefe4]

Hi guys, 

Just done a post on the Caixa thread which kind of relates to this, but don't want to go off topic too much on there so thought it'd be best to pop this one in here.

I'm currently at Inter using a 4-3-3 (2 IWBs, DLP and 2 CMs), attempting to create that 2-3-5 shape in attack that we have seen be so effective.

My issue however, as you will see below, is the positioning of the 2 central midfield players. Firstly, that they rarely position themselves as high up the pitch as I would like. Secondly, this leads to them standing on the toes of my IWBs.

Here, we have secured good possession in midfield with our Deep Lying Playmaker, Eriksen (slightly odd choice I know but other midfielders have attacking PPMs). In this case, the positioning of the 2 IWBs (22 and 18) is fine. But my 2 CMs (6 and 23) are far too deep and therefore occupy the same space.

This is about 15 seconds later. The ball had been across to the right and passed back inside to Eriksen (24), who moved it onto Asamoah (18). Once again, my CM (23) is literally in his way.

As I'm sure you can figure out, the blue circles are the rough areas where I'd like to see my CMs move into when we are in this situation. Fiorentina's 4-1-4-1 is very clear in this moment. The idea with the 2-3-5 would be to get my CMs into the half spaces either side of their DM (5). That way, if their CMs choose to press my IWBs, this would open up gaps that we can exploit. Frustratingly, with my IWB and CM taking up the same space, the opposition CM can simply press them both in the same action.

The relevant parts of the tactic, which I've tried to keep as simple as possible, are as follows:
- Positive Team Mentality
- Shorter Passing, Pass Into Space, Work Ball Into Box, Focus Play Through Middle
- MCR/MCL = Central Midfield, Support with PIs of Get Further Forward and Move Into Channels.
- DR/DL = Inverted Wing Back, Support with no PIs.
- AMR/AML = Winger, Support with PIs of Get Further Forward.
- Both CMs in this clip have 'Gets Forward Whenever Possible' as PPMs, neither have 'Comes Deep To Get The Ball' or anything else which might discourage them from moving into the spaces highlighted.

Any help very much appreciated! 

Edit - Just to add, I know on the face of it the Mezzala role seems ideal - "a central player that likes to drift wide and operate in the half-spaces", but I'm slightly put off by the the prospect of it disrupting our defensive shape, as the description also states that "he does generally have less defensive responsibility." One of the big plus points of this tactic has been the defensive structure, keeping 14 clean sheets in 17 matches, I'd be worried about compromising that too much. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by ElJefe4

[MadOnion]

What is your LOE and defensive line? Are they close to each other? Maybe try increasing the space between both.

Have you tried the mezzala/rpm instead?

Maybe try changing the IWBs to defend, if you haven't already.

[milestobudapest]

It’s not looking like FM21 offers much more in the direction of total football and what could be achieved using FM18. Although, the new focus play movements might offer some dynamism. Has anyone played around with trying to achieve something similar to what @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!has previously?

[ElJefe4]

39 minutes ago, MadOnion said:

What is your LOE and defensive line? Are they close to each other? Maybe try increasing the space between both.

Have you tried the mezzala/rpm instead?

Maybe try changing the IWBs to defend, if you haven't already.

Both defensive line and LOE are higher. I hadn't actually considered altering these. I've always been worried that increasing the space would make it easier for teams to play through my midfield. Changing it in order to increase the spaces between the lines for myself offensively literally hadn't crossed my mind.

Haven't tried Mezzala or Roaming Playmaker yet, again slightly concerned that it'd compromise my defensive structure. I think I'd be more inclined to make this switch if we were dominating possession but despite being set up to do so, I'm not having as much of the ball as I'd expect. Probably averaging about 50%. Then again, given how few goals we're conceding it's likely that much of this opposition possession is fairly sterile and therefore more adventurous midfield roles might actually be plausible. This will probably be the first one I try.

Changing the IWBs is another one I hadn't considered as well. I'm happy with their positioning so wouldn't want to alter it too much, having them slightly more withdrawn would definitely prevent them getting too close to the CMs. I'm just not sure if it would help with pushing the CMs any closer to my wingers/striker. Again, definitely worth some thought. Thanks for the ideas!

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Can't say how having a Mezzala will change your defensive structure (if at all), but I wouldn't worry too much about that part of the role description. A player with the right attributes will contribute nicely to defense. It's like the Trequartista; a player with good work rate isn't going to be lazy or necessarily defensively neglible when played there.

[Fantasista10]

10 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

My issue however, as you will see below, is the positioning of the 2 central midfield players. Firstly, that they rarely position themselves as high up the pitch as I would like. Secondly, this leads to them standing on the toes of my IWBs.

I have faced a similar issue ever since FM19 I believe. However, I have noticed a slight improvement in their positioning and fluidity of their movements in 21. 

In my system I had two IWB's on Support with two Mezzala's in midfield. One on Attack and one on Support, with two Wingers on Support to provide width and stretch the field. However, I also saw the issues you are facing, albeit in certain moments such as at kick-off, or when we had possession quite deep in our half. Once we reached the final third there was decent (not excellent) spacing between them. Often I would find the Mezzala's pushing up next to the F9 creating that 2-3-5 shape. 

For example bellow, I have the same issue with my no. 3 and no. 16 (IWB and Mez on Support) occupying the same space. But on the other flank, my Mez on Attack (49) is exactly where I want him to be - between the lines in that 'inside high' position with the IWB on that side 'inside low' and the Winger 'wide'. It's not perfect, but it results in an easy switch of play to either my 49 or 36 as we have a clear 3 v 2 on that side.

However, as I mentioned when we are in the final third, both Mezalla's are spaced quite nicely apart from their respective IWB. In this image my 16 - the Mez(S) - is quite high and occupies the opposition full back, leaving my 17 free. He then plays him in to score. 

Btw - I found instructing the team to play Wider helped quite a lot in achieving this. Coupled with 'Focus Play through the Middle' to ensure we weren't always playing through the wings. 

Admittedly it is not perfect, and I have since reverted back to a system similar to O-zil's with CWB's and IF's because it occasionally felt a bit stale in attack. However, it controlled games really well - easily having over 60% possession in most games. FYI I am managing Benfica where my team is obviously far superior to most that we face. 

Hopefully it shows that its (almost) possible to achieve the positioning you are after - in certain scenarios/areas of the pitch. 

[ElJefe4]

How have people found the FM21 match engine now you've had a couple of weeks to get used to it? I haven't made the switch over yet. I've actually gone back to FM18 as I found the ME much more enjoyable. One thing that has really jumped out is the positioning of 'attacking' central midfield players in possession based systems.

"Here's one I made earlier" - a few posts up I demonstrated how the positioning of my MCL/MCR was not as aggressive or adventurous as I'd like it to be, to the extent that they'd be standing on the toes of my inverted wing backs and utilising the space ahead of them. Below is a screenshot from an FM18 game with Lyon. Notice how Aouar is positioned is so much higher up the pitch in order to really that exploit that half space. The blue line shows the direction of the pass from Mendy (DL/IWB) to Aouar. The red circle is where I'd typically see my midfielders position themselves on FM20.

 

Really hope the FM21 match engine can get back to something like FM18 as far as the above is concerned. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by ElJefe4

[Gegenklaus]

On 29/11/2020 at 01:40, ElJefe4 said:

Really hope the FM21 match engine can get back to something like FM18 as far as the above is concerned. 

It does. In FM21 a mezzala-attack/Central Midfielder usually take up much higher positions now - and they do it earlier. Often I see my attacking midfielder as high as the striker. In general I can recommend FM21, it's the best ME of all of them. Right now I am toying with turning a deep 4-1-4-1 into a 2-3-5ish in attack.

[04texag]

6 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

It does. In FM21 a mezzala-attack/Central Midfielder usually take up much higher positions now - and they do it earlier. Often I see my attacking midfielder as high as the striker. In general I can recommend FM21, it's the best ME of all of them. Right now I am toying with turning a deep 4-1-4-1 into a 2-3-5ish in attack.

I'd love to see how you get on with this. I've been brewing up a similar idea after getting more time in game

[Azariiix]

Hey @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, amazing thread. I'm also fascinated with Total Football, and always tended to implement such a style in my FM campaigns. 

Currently trying to implement the tactic you've shared above (I'm managing Arsenal), which is adaptation of your FM18 tactic on FM20. FM21 gives me another challenge, it's nearly impossible to switch the mentality of BPD's and DLP(De) to positive, they'll stay "Balanced" no matter what. I left SK on Defensive as well. Will see how it goes, but DLP (De) is still participating in the attacks, which is surprisingly. I added "Be more Expressive" option an saw an increase in goals. It's still pre-season, and I'll see how it works during the season.

It's obvious that I have some problems with Arsenal, such as the team is quite unbalanced. 

Also read your Caixa thread. Quite fascinating.

[Nick_CB]

Adopting a total football philosophy strategy to my team recently promoted to La Liga
I hope I managed to stay and evolve my young hired players and reach the objectives

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Nick_CB

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

6 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

Adopting a total football philosophy strategy to my team recently promoted to La Liga
I hope I managed to stay and evolve my young hired players and reach the objectives

 

Nice to see Alex Pinto making an appearance in there. Is that the same one from Benfica?  Squad looks very well rounded. Let us know how you go! 

[Nick_CB]

5 horas atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Nice to see Alex Pinto making an appearance in there. Is that the same one from Benfica?  Squad looks very well rounded. Let us know how you go! 

It's the same Alex Pinto. It was a great coincidence haha

But I will sell him in the next window, it did not develop well and I have promising players who need more playing time

Tell me, do you find it interesting to keep or remove Pass Into Space when I need to be more "cautious" at the end of a match?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

16 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

It's the same Alex Pinto. It was a great coincidence haha

But I will sell him in the next window, it did not develop well and I have promising players who need more playing time

Tell me, do you find it interesting to keep or remove Pass Into Space when I need to be more "cautious" at the end of a match?

I am probably not the best person to ask.

Personally I do not, I keep playing the same way, but also I play with squads who have the quality to do so and the game is done and dusted in the vast majority of cases. My saves are often about creating a style of play, more than achieving results with an underdog.

I know you mentioned playing as a newly promoted side so it may well be a good idea, but I really cannot say that with much authority.

[Luizinho]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Out of interest, in your initial system, why do you use IF on support with Get Further Forward selected, rather than using IF on Attack?

EDIT: Found the reasoning back in the thread 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Luizinho

[yonko]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Do you play FM21 or are you still with FM18?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

43 minutes ago, yonko said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Do you play FM21 or are you still with FM18?

Still FM2018 buddy  Reaching the point now where the old database is making the prospect of a new game more challenging, but interest in experimenting with the tactics creator and creating new styles of football remains strong. Maybe one day the FM creators will bring it more back in line with my interests. Fingers crossed!

[-Jef-]

This might spark up something in you to get FM21

 

[crusadertsar]

On 18/01/2021 at 00:59, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Still FM2018 buddy  Reaching the point now where the old database is making the prospect of a new game more challenging, but interest in experimenting with the tactics creator and creating new styles of football remains strong. Maybe one day the FM creators will bring it more back in line with my interests. Fingers crossed!

Its a shame that you haven't given FM21 a try. I think your tactical ideas would translate really well in the new match engine.

 I was largely inspired by your Total Football threads before but couldn't really recreate Cruyff diamond in FM20. Well, now on FM21 this is the kind of gameplay that my Cruyff-inspired tactic is able to achieve. The possession and the number of chances created feel almost criminal. And its fun as hell. 

Edited January 20, 2021 by crusadertsar

[Luizinho]

Does anyone make any changes for big matches using the original system?

I guess it goes against the total football philosophy....

Edited January 20, 2021 by Luizinho

[Guest]

Is there anywhere I can download the tactics on this thread to try / tweak for myself? You're clearly all very clever, and better at the game than me 

[steakfaced]

20 minutes ago, alaugharne said:

Is there anywhere I can download the tactics on this thread to try / tweak for myself? You're clearly all very clever, and better at the game than me 

No. Read through the thread for answers.

[Guest]

Okay 🙃

[retrodude09]

11 hours ago, alaugharne said:

Okay 🙃

Everything you need to recreate this tactic is in the opening post. I'm sure in the last few pages some people have adapted it to FM21. 

[Guest]

Yeah, I've been trying to do something like this since FM20, and am now finding it better in 21 but not perfect, if you know what I mean. My saves are less about winning and more about the style of football; I'm in 2036 and can occasionally get the fluid, one-touch stuff I like, but it's far from all the time. I'll keep plugging away  Thankyou all for your really interesting points above.

I have a particular acquired (not from birth) cognitive disability which means I struggle with long streams of varied text and images (unless it's something with which I'm already *very* familiar), so trying to unweave all your excellent points can be troublesome sometimes...but if I take a breath and take my time, I'm learning more every day  Thankyou all for a really interesting thread.

[Impacto]

FM 18 is the best one for this tactic and nothing comes close to it. (imo) If you don't care about updated squads and just want to see total football play out, I would recommend doing it on FM 18. 

I've tried so many different styles, and all of them are fun to play. Apart from this masterpiece, Wenger's invincibles is such a joy to watch, the 3-6-1 cruiff is also amazing, I recently tried the Bielsa triple combo (switching between formations depending on opposition, but keeping the style of play identical) and it was also quite fun to watch(althoug not the same as real life Leeds unfortunately).

All of those are Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s creations and are the reason I still enjoy FM 18 to this day. (although I do switch to FM 20 from time to time as my brain just likes new stuff to try out). Btw, mate, you might need a new name...  

Unfortunately, those incredible tactical recreations are made for pre FM 19 ME and tactical interface and simply cannot be made properly in newer FMs at the moment. The new FMs have other advantages, but if you only care about the tactical side of things and want to watch and play a specific style, they are  just not up to par. I'm not saying they are bad, they are just not as good. 

[Guest]

Thanks for such an insightful and informative message Impacto 🙃 I’ve heard a lot about how good FM18 is, so might give it a try once I’m bored of this save. Why do you say I need a new name by the way?

[Impacto]

1 hour ago, alaugharne said:

Thanks for such an insightful and informative message Impacto 🙃 I’ve heard a lot about how good FM18 is, so might give it a try once I’m bored of this save. Why do you say I need a new name by the way?

Oh no, not you, I meant @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! needs a new name 

[Guest]

Haha, okay; makes sense 🙃

[FJW]

You have a midfield set up of DLP(D), BBM(S) & MEZ(S)..

Would other midfield set ups work? For instance, if your DM was not a playmaker type, or if you didn’t have a CM suited to playing box to box?

[FJW]

Hey Ozil. I’m having great success with your total football 4-3-3 style of football on FM18. I have a classic no. 10 coming through that I can’t ignore. I’m thinking of retraining him out wide or as the false 9 to fit into the system.

However, I was wondering if it is possible to play this style of football in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2 system?  If so, how would you go about setting up such a system?

Edited March 19, 2021 by FJW

[FJW]

I think I’ve killed the thread haha

[Garrlor]

1 hour ago, FJW said:

I think I’ve killed the thread haha

He isn't always around at the moment mate, so it might take some time for him to get back to you.

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
If you get time mate, I think he wants wants masters help

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 25/01/2021 at 21:53, Impacto said:

Oh no, not you, I meant @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! needs a new name 

 

Ø-degaard to the Arsenal! doesn't have quite the same ring to it. Maybe Ö-zil to the Fenerbahçe!

Maybe I do need an update, but I'm not sure it's possible on these forums. An out-of-date username does seem quite appropriate for my updates on an out-of-date version of the game I suppose 

 

On 02/03/2021 at 20:17, FJW said:

You have a midfield set up of DLP(D), BBM(S) & MEZ(S)..

Would other midfield set ups work? For instance, if your DM was not a playmaker type, or if you didn’t have a CM suited to playing box to box?

Sorry for the delayed responses. I thought this thread had mostly gone the way of trying to adapt something for the more recent Tactics Creator and I couldn't contribute too much to that discussion.

Yes - the main point to get across is that a huge combination of roles can work.

There are a few things to consider beyond the role name itself.

Be sure to also consider the players at your disposal and how they fit into the rest of your team.

In this particular iteration of Benfica, we had a squad which suited a high pressing and possession based style, marauding wingbacks and wide attackers who play best coming inside.

In the simplest possible terms, a midfield should have someone to support the attack, someone to support the defence and someone to connect the two. I'll typically assign one playmaker within that and I want as many players ahead of the playmaker as possible. Sometimes the deepest midfielder will not be capable enough as playmaker so would try the next player further forward.

DM(D) - DLP(S) - MEZ(S) is perfectly doable. HB(D) - DLP(D) - MEZ(S) if you want a bit more control in buildup.
 

On 19/03/2021 at 12:48, FJW said:

Hey Ozil. I’m having great success with your total football 4-3-3 style of football on FM18. I have a classic no. 10 coming through that I can’t ignore. I’m thinking of retraining him out wide or as the false 9 to fit into the system.

However, I was wondering if it is possible to play this style of football in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2 system?  If so, how would you go about setting up such a system?

Check the Caixa Academy thread. Shortly after this season I also had an AM come through who was so good he forced a change of system.

Again, there are a lot of options.

In fact in that thread I used 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-1-2 (in earlier seasons) if you're looking for inspiration.

[djpdavey]

What is the attribute threshold for playing this type of football? It's useful to know when your climbing up the leagues and want to eventually start playing better football. At what point do defenders stop ignoring short passing instructions and hoofing it even when there is a clear pass. 

[pauloolivieri]

On 18/01/2021 at 02:59, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Still FM2018 buddy  Reaching the point now where the old database is making the prospect of a new game more challenging, but interest in experimenting with the tactics creator and creating new styles of football remains strong. Maybe one day the FM creators will bring it more back in line with my interests. Fingers crossed!

I'm with you on this. Tried both 20 and 21, but it felt so boring watching the matches. It's always one team defending with 9 players inside the box and the opposition passing the ball around until someone hits a 30y-screamer. Or goals from counter, specially after an intercepted corner. FM18 creates some beautiful gameplay despite of some bizarre glitches or long shots. Through balls really happen.

I'm aware FM21 has by far the most realistic match engine ever, but real football is most of the time boring.

 

 

[PequenoGenio]

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!. Came acroos this the other day. Is this doable in FM22? If so what would be the guidelines for this in terms of TI, roles, dutys an so on?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, PequenoGenio said:

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!. Came acroos this the other day. Is this doable in FM22? If so what would be the guidelines for this in terms of TI, roles, dutys an so on?

Yes, more or less do-able. Check out the posts above as the Tactics Creator is more or less the same, with the exception of the labelling issues and a couple of new roles.

Main principles are:

• Attacking team mentality
• Lots of Support roles to attack collectively, rather than a few individuals
• If you're using a DLP(D) then you'll want to Exploit the Middle to get his mentality to Balanced, as Cautious playmakers are too.. cautious 
• High pressing
• Build from the back

The rest is pretty flexible.

[PequenoGenio]

10 minutos atrás, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! disse:

Yes, more or less do-able. Check out the posts above as the Tactics Creator is more or less the same, with the exception of the labelling issues and a couple of new roles.

Main principles are:

• Attacking team mentality
• Lots of Support roles to attack collectively, rather than a few individuals
• If you're using a DLP(D) then you'll want to Exploit the Middle to get his mentality to Balanced, as Cautious playmakers are too.. cautious 
• High pressing
• Build from the back

The rest is pretty flexible.

Do you tend to use PI's or just what is harcoded do the role?

[crusadertsar]

17 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, more or less do-able. Check out the posts above as the Tactics Creator is more or less the same, with the exception of the labelling issues and a couple of new roles.

Main principles are:

• Attacking team mentality
• Lots of Support roles to attack collectively, rather than a few individuals
• If you're using a DLP(D) then you'll want to Exploit the Middle to get his mentality to Balanced, as Cautious playmakers are too.. cautious 
• High pressing
• Build from the back

The rest is pretty flexible.

@PequenoGenioI might be wrong but exploit/focus through the middle doesn't affect individual mentality anymore. Not in FM22. Or maybe I missed something.

Edited November 15, 2021 by crusadertsar

[PequenoGenio]

1 minuto atrás, crusadertsar disse:

@PequenoGenioI might be wrong but exploit/focus through the middle doesn't affect individual mentality anymore. Not in FM22. Or maybe I missed something.

You are correct. The DLP are Cautions and continues Cautions...

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@PequenoGenioI might be wrong but exploit/focus through the middle doesn't affect individual mentality anymore. Not in FM22. Or maybe I missed something.

Ah, yes. I stand corrected. I've been building my tactics in the FM2021 Tactics Creator due to the individual mentality labelling issue with attacking players so hadn't noticed 

[yonko]

Just be brave and use DLP-S or even RGA at DMC position 

[Wavelberry]

Using a regista is actually a very good shout. I've been using it on positive and been getting some excellent results.