Team Shape? - FM19

[DiStru_]

As I understand so far, Team Shape was removed from FM19. Looks at this screenshot, looks like it's now a thing that changes automatically based on the duties of your tactic. What a shame if it's true, Team Shape added a layer of tactical depth to the game, despite it being complicated due to its poor in-game description.

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, DiStru_ said:

What a shame if it's true, Team Shape added a layer of tactical depth to the game, despite it being complicated due to its poor in-game description.

Completely agreed 

Fortunately, I'm happy with how FM18 works so I don't need FM19 at all 

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, DiStru_ said:

As I understand so far, Team Shape was removed from FM19. Looks at this screenshot, looks like it's now a thing that changes automatically based on the duties of your tactic. What a shame if it's true, Team Shape added a layer of tactical depth to the game, despite it being complicated due to its poor in-game description.

I still dont understand if the tag is now just a description with no effect, or will shape still have the same function, only now we cant control it ourselves? 

If its the first im a little disappointed and agree with you.

If its the second...then im pretty disgusted.

I have asked the question in the tactic revamp thread but i think due to amount of feedback and questions its not the right place. So ill just wait for the demo or beta i guess 

[SD]

26 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

If its the second...then im pretty disgusted.

Maybe it's a checkbox somewhere to match the team shape to the TIs/player duties, but the player can override that if they want.

I'd be surprised as well if team shape kept the same effects as in FM18 just that we'd be forced into the one the game picks for us.

[herne79]

[ianscousemac]

I am delighted team shape has gone.

[Robson 07]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Fortunately, I'm happy with how FM18 works so I don't need FM19 at all 

Its always the way fella, just get to grips and then...

[Jean0987654321]

AND...just like that, the thread is obsolete due to the elimination of team shape in FM19....

[OJ403]

Personally I'm on the fence over this. Sure team shapes are/were useful and added alot to tactics, but they caused more trouble than they are/were worth, in my opinion.

Plus with the inclusion of whatI believe are called either transitional or off the ball TIs could potentially allow the user to create some of the impacts of certain team shapes. For example, if I went very fluid to encourage my side to press as a unit, now I'd just raise my engagement line and pressing intensity. Also I am aware shape had other uses, this is just the first that came to mind.

I'm also seeing lots of talk about the libero being available in the CB slot. Can anyone shed any light?

[Svenc]

14 hours ago, DiStru_ said:

As I understand so far, Team Shape was removed from FM19. Looks at this screenshot, looks like it's now a thing that changes automatically based on the duties of your tactic.

If true, also another great example of how SI further and further obscurify/muddle the original intentions of their own TC/game. Which may make it harder to code actually robust AI  mangement too that isn't ocassionally outclassed by the simplest of common sense. In its original inception, the duties were the closest FM's TC had had to drawing simple, straightforward positioning arrows onto its tactics pitches. [For the most part, they were primarily tied to the ME/game inherent "Forward run" instructions that once were a part of the tactical UI. With a few exceptions, attack duties had those instructions maxed out, defend vice versa support mixed, ]. Ever since, it's beomce increasingly muddled. Not merely that, the implications of picks in duties have become about considering much more than merely inherently forward run encouragements (and can actually be further tweaked -- like many things, contradicting the original point of having the duties in the first place, too. The oldies may have forgotten this, but even the much maligned "counter mentality" at some point made logical sense -- at least a tiny bit).

However, needs to be seen in action to reserve judgement. It's just been pretty telling that in more recent years, SI, and apparently, more influential testers don't see a simple actually football idea when it bites them in the butt. But then both of them may have been to close to the code for far too long.

[herne79]

I split all this out from the Ozil thread on Team Shape if anyone wants to discuss the upcoming change in FM19.

Ozil's thread is still relevant for people playing FM18 and earlier .

[Jean0987654321]

5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I split all this out from the Ozil thread on Team Shape if anyone wants to discuss the upcoming change in FM19.

Ozil's thread is still relevant for people playing FM18 and earlier .

Good Idea. That thread is still useful for those that still have FM18 and any other earlier editions.

[howard moon]

Team shape in it's old format was confusing and often counter-intuitive. Linking compactness and creative freedom never made sense to me. It was incredibly abstract and made no sense in footballing terms.

It looks like compactness will be managed by the line of engagement, defensive line and transition instructions, which is definitely a good thing.

If creative freedom is also removed from shape, this is also a good thing and therefore it makes sense that 'shape' is now only an indicator of what you've selected in other settings.

[tyro]

If team shape is indeed removed, I welcome it. I think it caused a lot of confusion for people here and what it does and impacts.

I think removing it and "linking" it to player roles/duties and instructions is more intuitive. If I ask players to be more creative forces and so on, then it becomes more fluid. If I limit their roles, then it would be more structured. No need to have a button to select that. Ok, you are fluid now. But all of you are defensive and limited whatever.

[Experienced Defender]

I had issues with team shape at the beginning, but after reading (and listening to) some very good explanations, I soon found it a great asset to the game. You can be compact even on the Highly Structured if you choose right instructions, roles and duties, and more disciplined both positionally and in terms of creative freedom when using a more fluid shape. More fluid shapes also allow you to have more attack duties with less risk than in more structured shapes, while more structured ones can facilitate faster attacking transitions provided other tactical settings are used appropriately. Once you understand how each element of tactics work, the game gets much easier.

[JavierChicharito14]

 

在 2018/10/12 在 PM4点26分, howard moon说:

Team shape in it's old format was confusing and often counter-intuitive. Linking compactness and creative freedom never made sense to me. It was incredibly abstract and made no sense in footballing terms.

It looks like compactness will be managed by the line of engagement, defensive line and transition instructions, which is definitely a good thing.

If creative freedom is also removed from shape, this is also a good thing and therefore it makes sense that 'shape' is now only an indicator of what you've selected in other settings.

Agree with this. 

leicester city was very compact yet they were so disciplined . 

To achieve this with the silly team shape, strikerless is the only way . 

[Creativity]

I don't think team shape has  been removed, there using  a preset style in the screenshot. A bit further down the list on the presets list, you have the option to create your own tactical style where I'm guessing everything will be customisable.

[herne79]

17 minutes ago, Creativity said:

I don't think team shape has  been removed, there using  a preset style in the screenshot. A bit further down the list on the presets list, you have the option to create your own tactical style where I'm guessing everything will be customisable.

Welcome to the forum .

Team Shape has been removed.  It hasn't been reworked or replaced, it's been removed.  Team Fluidity is not the same thing as Team Shape.

Team Shape was an actual tactical setting you could physically change.  You'd set up your tactic and then layer Team Shape on top which had an impact on all kinds of things.  If you wanted to change Team Shape the only way to do so was to change the Team Shape setting.

Team Fluidity is none of that.  It's nothing more than a label used to describe how you've set up your players.  It's not a tactical setting.  If you want to change the Team Fluidity label given, you have to change how your individual players are set up.

[phnompenhandy]

Team Shape has not been removed. The instructions have been removed. Team Shape is still there inherent in the totality of team and player instructions.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

Team Shape has not been removed. The instructions have been removed. Team Shape is still there inherent in the totality of team and player instructions.

You're going to have to explain that one fella.  How is it still there if the instructions have been removed?  And Team Shape never had anything to do with team and player instructions anyway.

Team Shape - our ability to physically adjust tactical settings via changing the Team Shape setting is gone.  It's removed.  Us changing player duties in FM19 to result in a change to the new "Team Fluidity" label does not have the same effect as changing Team Shape used to.  It has no effect other than changing the name of the label and altering those aforementioned player duties.

[westy8chimp]

32 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Us changing player duties in FM19 to result in a change to the new "Team Fluidity" label does not have the same effect as changing Team Shape used to.

Im sure someone at SI created that label just to give you a headache dealing with us lot.

Its such an odd label to add when removing team shape due to its misinformation and complexity! I fell into the trap until you corrected me a few days ago, and i think its going to happen many times more over the coming months.

Why oh why did they put it there... If its just going to be some nonsense description based on our duties 

[herne79]

59 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Im sure someone at SI created that label just to give you a headache dealing with us lot.

I'm on holiday first week in November so I don't care .

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

Why oh why did they put it there... If its just going to be some nonsense description based on our duties 

I know what you're saying.  I can see an argument for removing all mention of it, or at the very least change the naming conventions.  It's basically redefining what the term "fluidity" means and that's potentially bloody confusing for people who have played FM for years.  Perhaps that can be changed before release.

[AFCBeer]

After spending so long studying and understanding Shape it’s a bit of a shame. I was almost able to identify the AI shape and employ my own nemises shape to exploit it. In reality, my analysis could have been wrong and almost certainly I’ve been out thinking myself. 

SI really seem to be ramping up the realism now. In real life, a manager might say “right lads, we’ll play an attacking 4-4-2 today with a high line. Dave and Chris, you can attack but I want Josh & Jeff to sit”. He’s almost never going to follow that up with “but do so in a highly structured manner”

What I’m getting is, the rest of his instructions will determine how fluid or structured the team shape is. I think this is the right call from SI if the shape is visible but not a specific instruction we can set. 

[Robson 07]

9 hours ago, herne79 said:

Team Shape has been removed.  It hasn't been reworked or replaced, it's been removed. 

@herne79 so no variable mentality frameworks (TT&F) etc under the hood?  Presumably at least one framework exists?  Therefore how are individual player mentalities being distributed?  Is it the end of the series for every users even longer term nemesis, 'creative freedom'?

 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

Therefore how are individual player mentalities being distributed?

The same way as you do now - player roles and duties.  Team Shape just added an additional overlay on top.

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

Is it the end of the series for every users even longer term nemesis, 'creative freedom'?

 

I doubt it.  From the info provided so far I'm still seeing TIs, PIs, player attributes & traits, all of which can affect it.

[kandersson]

Personally I'm glad it's gone. I would have preferred if they didn't show 'team fluidity' as well but I like that it's now a consequence of other tactical choices and not a setting to adjust.

[Rashidi]

3 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

@herne79 so no variable mentality frameworks (TT&F) etc under the hood?  Presumably at least one framework exists?  Therefore how are individual player mentalities being distributed?  Is it the end of the series for every users even longer term nemesis, 'creative freedom'?

 

There has never been this under the hood, I don't know where you guys keep pulling this information out of.  There was some logical basis in how the AI used to choose roles and duties based on the shape of a particular formation. And Shape was used to help the AI choose these roles and duties. So a fluid shape may have had more support duties for example. The game has never employed those frameworks in the engine ever. It was an interpretation by the authors on how certain roles and duties could be translated via shape settings.

As far as fluidity goes, from what I have seen, it seems that Team Fluidity in FM19 will simply be an indication of whether our system is playing more or less players in support during transitions. And that is really the most important thing that we need to take from this. Shape or Team Fluidity is about transitions and how our players move from defence to attack. Will there be a different/variable distribution for mentality, it should not matter. What matters more is who is on defend, who is on support and who is on attack and what mentality you are playing on. 

That has been the case since Shape was set up. Its not complicated, people make shape complicated. 

[kpsia518]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

That has been the case since Shape was set up. Its not complicated, people make shape complicated. 

Si didn't give us a A,B,C class,A for apple,B for ball,C for car.
Si want us to guess what every instruction use for,that why people make it complicated. 

at least give us a ABC class

 

[Gegenklaus]

10 hours ago, Rashidi said:

That has been the case since Shape was set up. Its not complicated, people make shape complicated. 

Of course Team Shape was complicated to get a grasp on. It was first on FM 18 I understood that it also made an impact on compactness - which to my knowledge wasnt written anywhere in the game. 

Team Shape was pretty abstract as it made no sense to football in real life. It was a factor for compactness, creative freedom and distribution of mentality. The two first not even visible before you play a match to know what it did - or to even look for. How is that not complicated?

[herne79]

1 minute ago, Gegenklaus said:

Of course Team Shape was complicated to get a grasp on. It was first on FM 18 I understood that it also made an impact on compactness - which to my knowledge wasnt written anywhere in the game. 

Team Shape was pretty abstract as it made no sense to football in real life. It was a factor for compactness, creative freedom and distribution of mentality. The two first not even visible before you play a match to know what it did - or to even look for. How is that not complicated?

imo it is (was) the single most misunderstood and misused tactical setting.

Luckily we don't have to worry about it any more .

[Gegenklaus]

Just now, herne79 said:

imo it is (was) the single most misunderstood and misused tactical setting.

Luckily we don't have to worry about it any more .

Amen!

[Robson 07]

17 hours ago, Rashidi said:

There has never been this under the hood, I don't know where you guys keep pulling this information out of.  There was some logical basis in how the AI used to choose roles and duties based on the shape of a particular formation. And Shape was used to help the AI choose these roles and duties. So a fluid shape may have had more support duties for example. The game has never employed those frameworks in the engine ever. It was an interpretation by the authors on how certain roles and duties could be translated via shape settings.

As far as fluidity goes, from what I have seen, it seems that Team Fluidity in FM19 will simply be an indication of whether our system is playing more or less players in support during transitions. And that is really the most important thing that we need to take from this. Shape or Team Fluidity is about transitions and how our players move from defence to attack. Will there be a different/variable distribution for mentality, it should not matter. What matters more is who is on defend, who is on support and who is on attack and what mentality you are playing on. 

That has been the case since Shape was set up. Its not complicated, people make shape complicated. 

@herne79, @Rashidi I could maybe open it up especially off the reply above but there has probably been enough Shape talk and no doubt more or similar to come at some point and I get the sense its best to leave it.  Thanks for the replies anyway - appreciated.

[Rashidi]

7 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

@herne79, @Rashidi I could maybe open it up especially off the reply above but there has probably been enough Shape talk and no doubt more or similar to come at some point and I get the sense its best to leave it.  Thanks for the replies anyway - appreciated.

I wouldn't worry about it, in FM19 it's a non starter, paying attention to something so irrelevant will be a waste of time for me. There are going to be bigger fish to fry

[Robson 07]

2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

There are going to be bigger fish to fry

No doubt  best baton down the hatches lad.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

No doubt  best baton down the hatches lad.

Don't worry, I've got "Team Shape is dead Team Fluidity is not Team Shape" set to a copy/paste macro .

Except I'll be in New York on launch day so you're on your own.

[RocheBag]

On 15/10/2018 at 15:13, AFCBeer said:

After spending so long studying and understanding Shape it’s a bit of a shame. I was almost able to identify the AI shape and employ my own nemises shape to exploit it. In reality, my analysis could have been wrong and almost certainly I’ve been out thinking myself. 

That's a bit gamey in and of itself though and even more reason to remove it.

[OJ403]

Bit of a query really. So what does fluidity actually do now?

Is it just a label that means nothing in relation to my tactic/the match engine or does it still have influences, as in previous FMs, and if so what?

[herne79]

2 minutes ago, OJ403 said:

Bit of a query really. So what does fluidity actually do now?

Is it just a label that means nothing in relation to my tactic/the match engine or does it still have influences, as in previous FMs, and if so what?

 

On ‎15‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:19, herne79 said:

Team Shape has been removed.  It hasn't been reworked or replaced, it's been removed.  Team Fluidity is not the same thing as Team Shape.

Team Shape was an actual tactical setting you could physically change.  You'd set up your tactic and then layer Team Shape on top which had an impact on all kinds of things.  If you wanted to change Team Shape the only way to do so was to change the Team Shape setting.

Team Fluidity is none of that.  It's nothing more than a label used to describe how you've set up your players.  It's not a tactical setting.  If you want to change the Team Fluidity label given, you have to change how your individual players are set up.

There is also a pinned thread at the top of this forum called FM19 Tactical Changes which goes into this and other things as well.

[OJ403]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

 

There is also a pinned thread at the top of this forum called FM19 Tactical Changes which goes into this and other things as well.

Cheers mate

Just to 100% clarify it in my head with the right role/duty/TI/PI combinations I could still achieve similar with a structured fluidity on FM19 to what I could with a fluid team shape on FM18. Would I be right in thinking this?

[westy8chimp]

 

You cannot achieve what team shape did anymore. 

But more importantly, what dobyiu think it did, or what aspect are yoi hoping to achieve... You may still be able to fulfil your requirement. 

[NabsKebabs]

7 hours ago, OJ403 said:

Cheers mate

Just to 100% clarify it in my head with the right role/duty/TI/PI combinations I could still achieve similar with a structured fluidity on FM19 to what I could with a fluid team shape on FM18. Would I be right in thinking this?

Sort of yeah but really it's not even worth comparing. In FM18 it was about redistributing the mentality between the players. In FM19 it's just a useless label. I'd recommend paying no attention to it in FM19. Just focus on the roles and duties and make sure they're doing what you want. 

[BigV]

But to some degree the team fluidity doesn't match what you want from the team or even how you set them up. Changing a support to attack in central midfield  in a 4-1-4-1/ 4-1-2-3 makes it more structured for any role... how would that be possible unless its completely different to what im thinking- players playing with flair and fluidity moving the ball?? 

[tyro]

5 hours ago, BigV said:

... how would that be possible unless its completely different to what im thinking- players playing with flair and fluidity moving the ball?? 

That's what they've been saying. It's completely different this year. Cosmetic. Not important. Ignore it. Focus on style and roles and duties. As with training, empty your head from what you know and learn from scratch. 

Holding on to a previous way the game works when they keep saying it has changed makes no sense. 

Oh also, some roles and attributes have changed (their descriptions). Things changed. 

 

[kpsia518]

 

Quote

 

Team Fluidity

The number of attack, defend and support duties you set within a Formation whilst using a given Mentality will be reflected in your Team Fluidity. For example, a Balanced Mentality and a Balanced Fluidity will have three players with Defend duties, four players with Support Duties, and three players with Attack duties.

Moving up and down the scale to more attacking or defensive football, and in more fluid or more rigid approaches, is determined by your distribution of duties. If you set seven players to have Attack Duties and three players with Defend duties, you’ll be playing with a Very Attacking mentality but a Very Rigid fluidity, as you haven’t provided sufficient balance within your overly-attacking setup. Balancing this with more Support duties will achieve a more fluid result, and the same rule applies across the board, so feel free to play around with your options and see what happens. Your overall Fluidity will always be indicated to you on the Tactics Overview screen.

 

 

[BigV]

4 hours ago, tyro said:

That's what they've been saying. It's completely different this year. Cosmetic. Not important. Ignore it. Focus on style and roles and duties. As with training, empty your head from what you know and learn from scratch. 

Holding on to a previous way the game works when they keep saying it has changed makes no sense. 

Oh also, some roles and attributes have changed (their descriptions). Things changed. 

 

Thanks man appreciate it. Yeah I kinda scrapped training and restarted, still playing balanced with 1/2 days game match prep. The most annoying thing is scouting takes ages for players to show up like the fms before, could never find the perfect fit for my team early on but just made enough of it to scout a year and get some feedback

[tyro]

I usually set them to scout to full knowledge. 

[BigV]

@tyro How long does that take though, less than a week or more? hurts badly when you start the game and have to wait a year to get the best planning

[tyro]

I could not give you an exact figure but if you tell them to keep scouting it takes them about 3 weeks? Each time it increases a bit.

[Touristas3]

One thing i would like to contribute in case you haven't noticed,is how fluidity can change the creative freedom in the tactics.

 

This is my regural tactic,team fluidity is flexible and familiarity is all maxed out

 

Now i change the duty of my BWM to support and our fluidity now becomes Fluid,tactical familiarity drops for Creative Freefom

 

Now if i change the duty of my RB for example to defend,it goes back to normal 

 

So in a way it isn't just cosmetic,it still plays a role and affects things when fluidity changes because of the roles you selected.

 

In FM18 i dont think it was working like this,you could change roles in-game and without touching the Team Shape option,familiarity would stay the same.

[ShadowBlader]

I really despise the new "Team Fluidity" so much