GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Snedhead said: Have you ever jumped? Not like up and down but to an angle if you're attacking a ball? His arm movements looked pretty natural for someone doing that (especially as he's quite gangly). Plus he didn't move it towards the ball. That said, yes his arm was away from his body, in the air, and blocked the ball. So I can understand it being seen as a penalty. As far as I can remember they always teach kids to jump with their arms as low as possible and as close as possible to their body. It wasn't intentional, that's why he only got a yellow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1981 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Again, the very fact that opinion is split here shows it isn’t a “clear and obvious” one, therefore VAR shouldn’t be intervening at all even if the non-award was arguably incorrect. If it needs to be clear and obvious, surely they could just have three VAR officials and only call it for review if all three of them agree. Would stamp out a lot of these debatable ones and only see it used to correct obvious blunders, which was supposed to be the whole point. We are literally getting nearly ten times as many penalties as we used to. Read that it was 0.56 pens per game in the first round of matches conpared to 0.06 in 2006 and 2010. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_fenton Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said: Raise your arm is one thing, his arm is above his head, ffs. That header was certainly going on target or really close to it. He gets a free pass because he's jumping? As are the arms of an Aussie player - which sort of supports the argument that it's a normal thing to do... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Yeah and if by some chance the ball hit his arm, nobody would complain about it being a hand-ball foul and Denmark ball. Or if Poulsen did this outside of the box, nobody would complain about it being a hand-ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgreenio Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said: If it needs to be clear and obvious, surely they could just have three VAR officials and only call it for review if all three of them agree. Would stamp out a lot of these debatable ones and only see it used to correct obvious blunders, which was supposed to be the whole point. Is that how it works anyway? There’s enough of them in the VAR booth I’d imagine they’d want a majority in there before bothering the ref. Was a penalty but an unlucky one, wonder if they’d have given it had the header been going miles wide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
warlock Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said: We are literally getting nearly ten times as many penalties as we used to. Yeah, they should just stop all this football nonsense and go straight to the penalty shoot-outs. 96 teams to the finals, done and dusted in a week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, elgreenio said: Is that how it works anyway? There’s enough of them in the VAR booth I’d imagine they’d want a majority in there before bothering the ref. Was a penalty but an unlucky one, wonder if they’d have given it had the header been going miles wide. No, if the call is obvious, for example offside, actual ref doesn't have to check it himself. But if it's doubtful, they don't have the authority to make the call for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sned Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, Rob1981 said: Again, the very fact that opinion is split here shows it isn’t a “clear and obvious” one, therefore VAR shouldn’t be intervening at all even if the non-award was arguably incorrect. If it needs to be clear and obvious, surely they could just have three VAR officials and only call it for review if all three of them agree. Would stamp out a lot of these debatable ones and only see it used to correct obvious blunders, which was supposed to be the whole point. We are literally getting nearly ten times as many penalties as we used to. Read that it was 0.56 pens per game in the first round of matches conpared to 0.06 in 2006 and 2010. I find it interesting that apparently no referee has gone against the VAR and stuck to their original decision. I wonder if an incident being referred back to the field is immediately making them think 'I've got this wrong' before even watching it again? My fear is that any contentious, split-decision penalty box incident will probably look worse in slow motion from multiple angles, which will see a heap of extra penalties. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigmatic Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, Tiger666 said: No one is allowed to raise their arms when jumping then. You're allowed to raise your arms when jumping, but if your arm's raised above your head between the player that's outjumped you and the goal and blocks a probably goalbound shot, you can probably expect a ref to decide you intended to leave it there. 1 minute ago, Rob1981 said: Again, the very fact that opinion is split here shows it isn’t a “clear and obvious” one, therefore VAR shouldn’t be intervening at all even if the non-award was arguably incorrect. If it needs to be clear and obvious, surely they could just have three VAR officials and only call it for review if all three of them agree. Would stamp out a lot of these debatable ones and only see it used to correct obvious blunders, which was supposed to be the whole point. We are literally getting nearly ten times as many penalties as we used to. Read that it was 0.56 pens per game in the first round of matches conpared to 0.06 in 2006 and 2010. Surely if a ref shows no evidence of having seen any handball, and awards the penalty after he's seen a replay, that's as clear and obvious an error in his original (lack of) action as it gets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sned Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, GunmaN1905 said: No, if the call is obvious, for example offside, actual ref doesn't have to check it himself. But if it's doubtful, they don't have the authority to make the call for him. I thought the ref had to check himself, even for offsides? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Snedhead said: I thought the ref had to check himself, even for offsides? If offside is obvious, he doesn't. But for red cards and penalties, he checks it most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Moores Mum Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Is VAR coming to England next season? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_fenton Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Quote Handling the ball Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm. The following must be considered: • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand) • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/722/144644_310518_LotG_18_19_EN_12.pdf with my own emphasis. For me, the incident didn't meet the criteria. He doesn't move his arm towards the ball, or position it unusually as if hoping to block it. I understand why others think differently, but just don't agree. Edit: I should add, that I cannot at all understand the booking being given as well as the penalty, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_jagster Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 O'Neill willing to stand up to Bilic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, Rob1981 said: We are literally getting nearly ten times as many penalties as we used to. Read that it was 0.56 pens per game in the first round of matches conpared to 0.06 in 2006 and 2010. It's a small sample size. In 2017/18 Serie A season, there were 125 penalties. 0.328 per game. Concidentally exactly the same number, 125, occurred in 2016/17 without VAR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgreenio Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Got to be all sorts of peer pressure going on then. ”oh, my 5 referees in the booth with replays and angles must think it’s a pen if they’re making me look, I must have screwed up”. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, m_fenton said: For me, the incident didn't meet the criteria. He doesn't move his arm towards the ball, or position it unusually as if hoping to block it. I understand why others think differently, but just don't agree. But the issue is that the ball was headed towards the target. If they didn't give penalties for this kind of situation, defenders would constantly flail their arms around, preventing a lot of good shots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_jagster Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Snedhead said: I find it interesting that apparently no referee has gone against the VAR and stuck to their original decision. I wonder if an incident being referred back to the field is immediately making them think 'I've got this wrong' before even watching it again? My fear is that any contentious, split-decision penalty box incident will probably look worse in slow motion from multiple angles, which will see a heap of extra penalties. The one I remember was when the Costa Rica player went down clutching his face in disgrace but even then the ref still inexplicably gave a yellow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Moores Mum Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said: It's a small sample size. In 2017/18 Serie A season, there were 125 penalties. 0.328 per game. Concidentally exactly the same number, 125, occurred in 2016/17 without VAR. Yeah but is that because they can no longer get away with awarding Juventus numerous dodgy calls?... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_fenton Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, GunmaN1905 said: But the issue is that the ball was headed towards the target. If they didn't give penalties for this kind of situation, defenders would constantly flail their arms around, preventing a lot of good shots. Which would result in penalties. The defender in this case did not "flail his arms around", so that's a silly argument to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1981 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, Rob1981 said: If it needs to be clear and obvious, surely they could just have three VAR officials and only call it for review if all three of them agree. Would stamp out a lot of these debatable ones and only see it used to correct obvious blunders, which was supposed to be the whole point. 9 minutes ago, elgreenio said: Is that how it works anyway? There’s enough of them in the VAR booth I’d imagine they’d want a majority in there before bothering the ref. They keep introducing a specific VAR ref so I think there is one in overall charge and he alone makes the decision whether to call a review. The other lads in there must just be scrolling through the camera angles and showing him which bits to look at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1981 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 See McCoist has changed his tune a bit, called it a “moment of madness” from Poulsen to start with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, ginnybob said: Yeah but is that because they can no longer get away with awarding Juventus numerous dodgy calls?... 2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said: They keep introducing a specific VAR ref so I think there is one in overall charge and he alone makes the decision whether to call a review. The other lads in there must just be scrolling through the camera angles and showing him which bits to look at. It's like one of those goverment jobs. 5 people being hired for a job that 1 or 2 people can do. You don't need more than 1 ref to see if it was an offside and they call the actual ref to review it in every other situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 it's not being implemented next year into the Premier League but all the players/fans who will be making the TV sign at the ref with their hands Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigcwwe Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Australia have been so much better since their goal. Probably look more likely to score right now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy8chimp Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, m_fenton said: http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/722/144644_310518_LotG_18_19_EN_12.pdf with my own emphasis. For me, the incident didn't meet the criteria. He doesn't move his arm towards the ball, or position it unusually as if hoping to block it. I understand why others think differently, but just don't agree. Edit: I should add, that I cannot at all understand the booking being given as well as the penalty, though. I agree with you. Letter of the law I don't see how that incident met the criteria. Compounded by a ridiculous yellow card. What I would say however, the rule needs an update. For me the ball clearly hit his arm, natural position? Possibly, but if you jump like a starfish (John Terry book of defending) or with an emphatically flailing arm and the ball hits your arm to prevent a possible goal/pass etc then it should be a foul. Not saying this incident would have met that criteria either. But the rule lends itself to people jumping very unnaturally to increase the chances of ball to hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_jagster Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I've often found there's an unwritten rule that if it hits the hand outside direct fk/penalty range it's always given as handball, with more and more blatant handballs needed for penalties. I don't think anyone bats an eyelid if that's 30 yards out and a free kick is given so a handball is fair enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Sisto's been poor today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Strolls back onto the pitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_jagster Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Both Sisto and Braithwaithe since he's come on have looked well below the level of Eriksen and Jorgensen and slowed things right down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFuller Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Awful shoulder injury for Nabbout in the Aussie attack. I don't think we'll see him again at this tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick1408 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I would have brought Cahill on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 Schone has a Modric style about him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBwoy Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Bar the goal, Eriksen has been really poor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigcwwe Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Cahill would have scored that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigcwwe Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 What was that that Mark Van Bommel was holding? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Van Marwijk is underrated. First he qualifies with that dreadful Saudi side and now Australia is playing great under him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 wtf Delaney. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger666 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Sisto is garbage. Another player overrated by the FIFA kiddies just because he's great at dribbling on the playstation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigcwwe Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Awful cross from Delaney. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Tiger666 said: Sisto is garbage. Another player overrated by the FIFA kiddies just because he's great at dribbling on the playstation. He was a FM wonderkid way before FIFA days. And he had one great season at Celta. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigcwwe Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Denmark were the better side until Australia scored after which they were the better side. Denmark were very poor second half and aside from the half volley in the last few minutes I thought Eriksen got subbed off after this goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Australia with a good chance of advancing now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunkerossian Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Arzani a typical youngster, rash and selfish. Has talent, but his decision to shoot instead of cross saved Denmark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_ Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 That's a pen for me, Dave. Way too much pressure on the ref. He's being told he's wrong. Easy choice would be to then give a pen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius1998 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Australia didn't really let Eriksen get on the ball after his goal. Then again, even his set pieces weren't great today. Jorgensen was at his best early on, winning flick ons, holding up the ball, coming up with some nice touches (even got the assist) but after he missed his chance, he got snuffed out of the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedrik Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Not sure what annoyed me the most, the level of football in this match or the Dutch commentary favouring one team over the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy8chimp Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Andrew_ said: He's being told he's wrong. Easy choice would be to then give a pen Genuine question... is that what the VAR assistants are saying [that the ref is wrong] when they call an incident to the refs attention? I thought it was more a case of "you may have missed this, we've seen it hit his hand, make another assessment" not, "we've reviewed the handball and think you are wrong, it should be a penalty take another look" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_ Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 14 minutes ago, westy8chimp said: Genuine question... is that what the VAR assistants are saying [that the ref is wrong] when they call an incident to the refs attention? I thought it was more a case of "you may have missed this, we've seen it hit his hand, make another assessment" not, "we've reviewed the handball and think you are wrong, it should be a penalty take another look" I think it is your version. But it must give him doubts. If he was correct they wouldn't say look at it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy8chimp Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Andrew_ said: I think it is your version. But it must give him doubts. If he was correct they wouldn't say look at it. yes for sure, or if not doubts ... may give the ref more bravado to make the big call when actually their initial instinct to air on the side of caution was correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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