3 up front

[Liamgannon]

Would be interested to hear if people are still using 3 up front or if they consider this to be cheating. 

I'm not ashamed to say that i am - My first team strikers and roles are as follows: Dolberg (AF), Neymar (Treq), M'bappe (AF) 

My tactic relies on a high press so I find a flat front 3 more effective than two IF's and a striker. 

[forameuss]

Not ashamed to say that you are, yet pose the question asking if it's cheating?

Why worry about what anyone else thinks.  you can play the game however you want to.  If you want to take over other clubs so you can get players cheap, do that.  Save-and-reload to your heart's content.  Anyone spending time worrying about how someone else plays their single player game has issues.

[herne79]

It's not cheating but there's only one person's opinion that matters - yours.  You bought the game, play it in whatever way you enjoy .

[Liamgannon]

6 hours ago, forameuss said:

Not ashamed to say that you are, yet pose the question asking if it's cheating?

Why worry about what anyone else thinks.  you can play the game however you want to.  If you want to take over other clubs so you can get players cheap, do that.  Save-and-reload to your heart's content.  Anyone spending time worrying about how someone else plays their single player game has issues.

And anyone spending time to reply to someone who’s worried about how they play their game has SERIOUS issues! 

[DE-Z]

If it worries you, try something different. For you to ask, it must be nagging you a tad.

[Liamgannon]

It doesn’t worry me. 

[Liamgannon]

I just did a clean sweep of all trophies available, if anything i’m over the moon 

[Svenc]

The flaws you can exploit aren't specifically about "3 at the top" formations (which the AI uses too). Ultimately, if you are bored by something, stop using it. If not... press continue fire away! [But then don't be that kinda guy]

[LCpl]

It's widely regarded as an exploit, but you play the way you want. That said, clean sweeps in this version are two a penny, no real sense of achievement in this version. Easiest FM in years. Disappointingly so. Makes me wonder why people need an exploit in the first place.

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, LCpl said:

Makes me wonder why people need an exploit in the first place.

Don't underestimate the viable attraction of fantasies! Such as scoring 3+ goals every match, up to double digit scorelines. Or getting all forwards involved, no matter their attributes, to convert at scarily consistent rates. Like every 2nd shot on target // every 3rd overall attempt or better every season for every forward ending in a goal. If Ronaldo would be this consistent, he may have approached 100 goals per season. It speaks to reason that it hinges on a few flaws, thus. As for everything else... which is probably what matters, see the links above.

[shirajzl]

3 hours ago, Svenc said:

The flaws you can exploit aren't specifically about "3 at the top" formations (which the AI uses too). Ultimately, if you are bored by something, stop using it. If not... press continue fire away! [But then don't be that kinda guy]

I always wondered, do you have the links for this ancient threads at the ready or you always search for them manually?

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, shirajzl said:

I always wondered, do you have the links for this ancient threads at the ready or you always search for them manually?

The search function of this forum is trickier than settling on a team shape! Alas, if you simply google for a few catchphrases such as cheating+sicommunity+FM you always immediately find the good stuff. And if that doesn't help, sorting the threads by size (and letting your browser search bar look for similar catchphrases) also never fails. In the end, FM history seems to always repeat itself. Apparently it's been doing so for a decade plus running -- in a world of rapid changes, that's always somewhat comforting.

[RodentofDoom]

523, 433 & 343 are all valid formations

 

nothing wrong in using them

[Liamgannon]

53 minutes ago, RodentofDoom said:

523, 433 & 343 are all valid formations

 

nothing wrong in using them

finally, a sane voice! 

[forameuss]

2 minutes ago, Liamgannon said:

finally, a sane voice! 

Well, that's pretty much what I said, and you threw a strop at that.  

You can do what you like with your game.  As long as you're enjoying it, who cares?

[Liamgannon]

i disagreed with you, hardly throwing a strop. 

Plus you said this:

"If you want to take over other clubs so you can get players cheap, do that.  Save-and-reload to your heart's content.  Anyone spending time worrying about how someone else plays their single player game has issues."

In my eyes, the examples you gave are the epitome of cheating and how does gaging how people play the game mean i have issues. Stop being such a drama queen. If my comment annoyed you so much you really need to reevaluate your life. 

[forameuss]

10 minutes ago, Liamgannon said:

i disagreed with you, hardly throwing a strop. 

Plus you said this:

"If you want to take over other clubs so you can get players cheap, do that.  Save-and-reload to your heart's content.  Anyone spending time worrying about how someone else plays their single player game has issues."

In my eyes, the examples you gave are the epitome of cheating and how does gaging how people play the game mean i have issues. Stop being such a drama queen. If my comment annoyed you so much you really need to reevaluate your life. 

I didn't think my post was that hard to understand.  In this case, you are the person playing your single player game, and anyone else worrying about how you play it, has the issues.  Not you.  Obviously.  I'm fairly comfortable in not needing to reevaluate anything just because you misunderstood what I posted.

But to reiterate for a third time, use whatever means you need to enjoy your own game and don't worry what anyone else thinks.

[Liamgannon]

i'm perplexed as to why you've joined this forum if you don't want to engage with others to understand how they play the game. 

share tactics? no, just worry about how you play the game

looking for a new wonder-kid striker? no, find him yourself

want to share your achievements? no, the game is only about your results

Yes, it is my game, you're right in that respect - but how i choose to engage with people on a public forum is also my choice - and if i choose to ask people if they consider something cheating then that is my prerogative, and my prerogative only. 

You could of course choose to ignore my post and carry on with your life, but then you wouldn't have anything to get annoyed about, would you? 

[alanschu14]

2 hours ago, Liamgannon said:

and if i choose to ask people if they consider something cheating then that is my prerogative, and my prerogative only. 

I think part of it is that it seems like the thread was created to solicit agreement that's it's not cheating.

If you want my answer, recognizing that the match engine doesn't properly deal with demonstrates an unfair advantage (moreso...) that I have over the AI especially given how rarely the AI uses 3 striker formations. So I choose to not use it because I have the benefit of recognizing that the game engine has a weak spot.

But if you're fine with it then, as others have said, have at it. As long as you're having fun.

[DeathReborn]

I have tested a 3 striker formation and it was barely any better than a 442/424 I am using for my long term Millwall save.  It's a part of the game, the devs haven't fixed it so it must either be unworthy of a fix or intentional and therefore fair game.  I however won't use them other than to test compared to what I use.  I am still trying to recreate my old CM 97/98 formation in FM's over the years but it never quite works like it used to, still I try.

[Liamgannon]

On 4/19/2018 at 13:25, forameuss said:

 Anyone spending time worrying about how someone else plays their single player game has issues.

Yep sorry - I did misunderstand what you meant, apologies for jumping the gun...

[Transk53]

On 20/04/2018 at 18:56, DeathReborn said:

I have tested a 3 striker formation and it was barely any better than a 442/424 I am using for my long term Millwall save.  It's a part of the game, the devs haven't fixed it so it must either be unworthy of a fix or intentional and therefore fair game.  I however won't use them other than to test compared to what I use.  I am still trying to recreate my old CM 97/98 formation in FM's over the years but it never quite works like it used to, still I try.

I have read elsewhere that AI can’t handle three up top, and quite a decent formation for guaranteed goals. Not sure that I believed that when I read it. In the old CM, 424 was one of my faves.

[steakfaced]

On 4/21/2018 at 00:31, alanschu14 said:

I think part of it is that it seems like the thread was created to solicit agreement that's it's not cheating.

If you want my answer, recognizing that the match engine doesn't properly deal with demonstrates an unfair advantage (moreso...) that I have over the AI especially given how rarely the AI uses 3 striker formations. So I choose to not use it because I have the benefit of recognizing that the game engine has a weak spot.

But if you're fine with it then, as others have said, have at it. As long as you're having fun.

Sevilla just used one against me and its usually a last ditch tactic. I created 10!!! CCC against it tho, of course only putting away a few. Facing 3 strikers is frustrating its definitely a ME issue [i'm still on FM17] 

[alanschu14]

2 hours ago, steakfaced said:

Sevilla just used one against me and its usually a last ditch tactic. I created 10!!! CCC against it tho, of course only putting away a few. Facing 3 strikers is frustrating its definitely a ME issue [i'm still on FM17] 

Yeah I had Young Boys in Switzerland use it against me once (so I countered with it and... it was a barn burner with like 9 goals scored lol)

[LCpl]

On 20/04/2018 at 05:22, Svenc said:

Don't underestimate the viable attraction of fantasies! Such as scoring 3+ goals every match, up to double digit scorelines. Or getting all forwards involved, no matter their attributes, to convert at scarily consistent rates. Like every 2nd shot on target // every 3rd overall attempt or better every season for every forward ending in a goal. If Ronaldo would be this consistent, he may have approached 100 goals per season. It speaks to reason that it hinges on a few flaws, thus. As for everything else... which is probably what matters, see the links above.

Hmm.. I'm pretty much there with a 4213 (2DM/1CM). I've got Draxler, Firmino and Salah raking in around 30-35 a season... each. Albeit it's 2022, my team is not changed in two seasons and they've developed some monster interplay.

Problem is, rest of league isn't competitive, even with Man City buying 3 x £70-100m players a season

[Federico]

Anyway, I consider cheating playing with a double manager, increasing your cash via editor, manipulating your players attributes and so on... Using a tactic that exploits the engine, just because the AI can't cope with it? You didn't use any external tool to make your game easier. Keep playing with that but I assure you at some point you'll want to try something new, something made with your hands, something you want to be yours and yours only. When you'll meet that day, you'll start considering FM from a different and probably more satisfying level.

[Smkx_Muldoon]

It's crazy, I got Brackley from the Conference to Premier League in consecutive seasons with average players at best. Still, I enjoyed the ride and still am....

[Per Annum]

The question of whether using one of these tactics in FM 18 being cheating is indeed subjective.

However, the bandying around of the 'who cares' questions are dangerous, as we should all care.

Each year we are told by SI how the ME gets more realistic, you have to use real tactical knowledge to succeed, and plug and play tactics don't work in this stellar new annual edition.

Each year exploit tactics are discovered. In my opinion, the existence of objectively evidenced exploit tactics, as there clearly is this year, render the ME, and thereby the game, a failure.

I'm quite open minded to the fact that it might be near impossible to make an exploitless ME, that SI are doing as well as can be expected even with the huge resources that sales give them, etc, etc. What I can't do is reconcile that failure with the tone adopted by SI and moderators in the face of any criticism of the game. If your ME is a failure, as it is year after year, then this needs to be acknowledged, and it never is.

[HUNT3R]

54 minutes ago, Per Annum said:

The question of whether using one of these tactics in FM 18 being cheating is indeed subjective.

However, the bandying around of the 'who cares' questions are dangerous, as we should all care.

Each year we are told by SI how the ME gets more realistic, you have to use real tactical knowledge to succeed, and plug and play tactics don't work in this stellar new annual edition.

Each year exploit tactics are discovered. In my opinion, the existence of objectively evidenced exploit tactics, as there clearly is this year, render the ME, and thereby the game, a failure.

I'm quite open minded to the fact that it might be near impossible to make an exploitless ME, that SI are doing as well as can be expected even with the huge resources that sales give them, etc, etc. What I can't do is reconcile that failure with the tone adopted by SI and moderators in the face of any criticism of the game. If your ME is a failure, as it is year after year, then this needs to be acknowledged, and it never is.

Take the time to read a few threads around here. You'll see there's plenty of criticism. What you do (and why we keep having to infract you) is by taking pops at SI and mods, which (as has been explained many times to you) is against forum house rules. Even the quoted post is going in that direction and I suggest you put a stop to it. It's both wrong and unnecessary.

[Per Annum]

Admittedly, my use of 'any criticism of the game' was inaccurate, apologies about that specific word.

[westy8chimp]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 10:09, Svenc said:

The search function of this forum is trickier than settling on a team shape!

1 hour ago, Federico said:

Anyway, I consider cheating playing with a double manager, increasing your cash via editor, manipulating your players attributes and so on... Using a tactic that exploits the engine, just because the AI can't cope with it? You didn't use any external tool to make your game easier. Keep playing with that but I assure you at some point you'll want to try something new, something made with your hands, something you want to be yours and yours only. When you'll meet that day, you'll start considering FM from a different and probably more satisfying level.

A previous example for me was set pieces. I can't remember exactly which edition I noticed it in first... but each year for at least 3 (before I stopped touching them at all) there was a major game breaking exploit on corners.

I think it was FM11/12 or 13 where I was Chelsea and set corners to edge of box with Lampard lurking. I was scoring 70-100 corners a season. He'd score 50 goals + per season.. with 30-40 own goals where his shots deflected in ... and on top of that, when you are 3-0 up in 10 mins due to corners it killed the oppositions morale and ratings so they played progressively worse (remember when having a defender with a match rating under 5 meant they were 99% guaranteed to concede a penalty or be sent off?)

Then on FM 14 (don't quote me I'm trying to remember both the sequence and edition) it was setting it to near post with your CB marking keeper and other CB attacking near post - it was nowhere near as bad but scoring circa 20 per season.

Then it was far post and again between 15-20.

It got to a point where during an online game with my brother we had banned doing any set piece settings (on mixed you'd allow for 10 or so goals, anything over that lead to an investigation into every goal scored. Any goals scored when losing important matches etc where investigated).

I haven't touched set pieces in the TC for several years just for fear that it's still riddled with exploits.

-------------------

With something like the 3 upfront - if it is an exploit (I'm not convinced, but I don't want to dive into the rabbit hole in case I see game breaking things I don't want to see), it's far worse because that is a fairly orthodox formation. Certainly as a go to when losing it's natural to add a 2nd and at times 3rd striker. i.e. push the wingers or IFs into strikers and let FB/WB provide width.

[RodentofDoom]

Apparently there is, but I have no idea what is it is.

If I wanted to know I'm fairly sure I could google it.

 

I've always liked the flat 433, or 433 narrow as it seems to be called now.

For me it's versatile and highly flexible, where the other 433 people talk about (actually a 451) I find the ai shuts down that lone striker really quickly.

As it's a game, im playing to have fun, so i'll play it in a way that I find enjoyable.

If I want frustration and annoyance, I'll ask for extra shifts at work, not load up a game.

 

[jc1]

Many teams play 4-3-3 whether it's with 3 strikers or with wingers/inside forwards, plus wingbacks are more common in real life games also. Look at Man C, Liverpool etc all very attack minded with 3 up top.

[Snorks]

Didn;t Alf Ramsey's Wingless Wonders win a world cup when they played a tactic the opposition couldn't deal with effectively? Noone called him out for cheating.

Cruyff's Ajax team developed a tactic the opponents had problems defending against, why is that known as 'Total Football' and lauded everywhere as brilliance? Surely, if he opposition can't handle your tactic it's cheating?

Jimmy Armfield, a full back, once overlapped Stanley Matthews for Blackpool because Matthews was being closed down by two opposition, they scored heaps doing that, was it cheating or was it a tactical masterstroke to open space for crosses when wingers are crowded out.

If you develop a tactic, or download someone else's, and it wins games then fair play - if it was as serious problem or easy fix SI would have done something with the update. 

Play the game how you are comfortable playing it, but I challenge anyone to name a successful team IRL that 'Cheats' by using a tactic that is effective against most opposition.

 

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, Snorks said:

Play the game how you are comfortable playing it, but I challenge anyone to name a successful team IRL that 'Cheats' by using a tactic that is effective against most opposition.

Leicester 2015-16. Narrowly avoided relegation the season before and definitely not a good enough squad on paper to win the league, but Ranieri playing on the counter with the overpowered quick striker Vardy up front and negating their too-slow defence with a deep defensive line broke the match engine.  

Seriously the closest thing I've seen to FM overachievement IRL

-

3 pure strikers up front is a bit bolder than most RL managers but isn't ridiculous, and having three proper strikers each with roles tailored to their strengths doesn't feel as weird as the three shadow strikers and no proper striker that most FM17 defences struggled to handle though arguably narrow wingbacks were even more overpowered.

[Svenc]

9 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Seriously the closest thing I've seen to FM overachievement IRL

 

None of their forwards broke the league with ridiculous goals, let alone inferior Forwards though. The kind of overachievement (compared to the player quality) that happens in football tends to happen over the course of a season, as over the course of a season all kind of stuff influences, including random chance. And whilst Ranieri may have done brilliant -- he probably knows himself that this was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Fat chance that in football Managers are not seldom rewarded for being some "lucky", and punished for the vice versa. As Ranieri arguably was right in the follow-up season. A better gauge of a club's performance is over the longer term, though sadly it's very much more predictable. Take the league table over three seasons and you're getting somewhere. Take it over ten seasons and it's saddening for anybody who loves that Leicester story -- and who doesn't? 

IIRC such overperformance, as well as underperformance from my end doesn't happen hugely much on FM. It's in parts connected to AI, but also to that FM doesn't simulate "realistic" scoring streaks, for a start. If it would though, frustration would increase -- at least if you're truly hit by it yourself. Ask Zidane this term, for instance. Wonder how much this influenced his decision to call it quits when he was under severe pressure by January.  Then again, it's worth remembering that FM is a game and naturally Always will be!

[RBKalle]

Playing a rather normal 4-3-3 narrow with three actual CFs is hardly cheating.

In FM18 I adopted it months BEFORE it turned out to be (part of) a game-breaking tactic, and I never experienced outlandish results with it.

Then, if you go out  of your way to download a clearly unbalanced formation (3-2-2-3) that is clearly advertised as an exploit and go on to dominate the league with a midtable side, winning with waterpolo scores, it's a whole different situation.

You're free to do so and enjoy the game nonetheless, but it kinda gets hollow after a while.

[RandomGuy.]

The more people who use three central strikers against the AI the better, pretty much every game they do it to me, and if I don't change to a back three in time, they'll more than likely score. 

Has me seething. 

[Snorks]

I have experimented with 3 up tops, and apart from the narrow 4-3-3 have little consistent success. Have tested a few, the popular 5-2-3 with wing backs gives me outstanding results against lesser teams, but struggles against better ones.

My AC Milan save, should be in control of most games, would win against bottom half teams 3,4,5-0, but against anyone in the top ten would labour to a draw or get hammered.

Have never been a fan of 3 CBs either, but that's just my philosophy rather than the game.

 

[Hovis Dexter]

If you’ve bought the game and are playing as a single player you are free to do whatever you are comfortable with. If you want to play a so called exploit or use the editor to  make all of your players superstars then do so if that makes you happy. Alternatively, if you think that playing a possible exploit or using the editor is cheating then do not do that. It’s all down to you. Just enjoy the game and play it as you wish. It’s nothing to with anybody else.