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FM18 New Roles Explained

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Nice explanation, Cleon.

 

One example of a Carrilero is Zanetti under Mou. He would act like a RB when Maicon would bomb down the flanks. Another one would prolly be Gabi Fernandez Arenas of Atletico Madrid. He would make lateral move in order to cover for the attacking fullbacks and even whip in a cross...

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The inverted winger sounds like exactly what I was hoping for. It describes Leyton Orient legend Dean Cox perfectly. A right footed player that played on the left, would run with the ball down the flank until he got about 18 yards out, he'd feint to hit the byline and then check, drag the ball inside - the overlapping fullback would shoot past him for the overload option - Cox could then lay it off to the fullback or nip inside the disorientated defender and whip in an inswinging cross for Kevin Lisbie to head home or smash one home himself. Ahhhh, how I miss that team.

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Lol the inverted winger role’s description is almost a carbon copy of the inside forward save for a few choice word changes, everything else reads the same. Hope it plays differently on the game. Yet to buy FM18 as i cannot bear with beta demos and the bugs associated with it.

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35 minutes ago, Jyuan83 said:

Lol the inverted winger role’s description is almost a carbon copy of the inside forward save for a few choice word changes, everything else reads the same. Hope it plays differently on the game. Yet to buy FM18 as i cannot bear with beta demos and the bugs associated with it.

They're not similar. For a start the IF starts much higher up the pitch, that alone changes how they play. Secondly the Inside Forward doesn't play like a winger at all. Their overriding instinct is to get on the ball, head for the box and and make something happen. They're a forward. The Inverted Winger is a winger. They combine as part of the midfield, they work in tandem with an overlapping fullback. They will still exploit the flank and stay wider until the fullback has overlapped them and then they will either support the overlapping fullback out wide or use the fullback as a decoy run allowing them to attack the space created by the defenders getting dragged across. A fullback compliments an Inside Forward, not the other way around.

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@Cleon in a 4123 (433) formation wich role do you think is better suited to ensure width for the CM left or right if that midfielder has behind a fullback on defend duty, and in front an inside forward? maybe mezzala? or carrillero?

--------------------CFsupport--------------------

IFsupport-------------------------------IFattack

-------------Mezzala?-----B2B-------------------

-------------------------DLP-------------------------

FBdefend--CD------------CD--------FBattack

------------------------GK----------------------------

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Ignore that. Was thinking of the Carrillo.

Edited by Atarin

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6 minutes ago, menne said:

@Cleon in a 4123 (433) formation wich role do you think is better suited to ensure width for the CM left or right if that midfielder has behind a fullback on defend duty, and in front an inside forward? maybe mezzala? or carrillero?

--------------------CFsupport--------------------

IFsupport-------------------------------IFattack

-------------Mezzala?-----B2B-------------------

-------------------------DLP-------------------------

FBdefend--CD------------CD--------FBattack

------------------------GK----------------------------

Well the two roles you mention, from the description which one does the closest to what you're asking for the style you are creating and which one doesn't? :brock: Only you know that :) 

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3 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Well the two roles you mention, from the description which one does what you're asking and which one doesn't? :brock:

Mezzala? :ackter: 

i have the doubt that mezzala is going in the same position of the inside forward: i need to use the space that my fullback is not covering, more wide spaces than half-spaces

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Just out of curiosity, how is the movement of an inverted winger different from the movement of a wide midfielder instructed to cut inside?

Also, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the Mezzala role. Could Hamsik  (in the Sarri system) be described as one?

Edited by FMWolf

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Wide midfielders play pass and move. Wingers dribble. The Wide midfielder that cuts inside will pass the ball off and move inside. The Inverted Winger will try to drive forward with the ball before combining with the fullback who has followed him up.

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Sounds like the inverted winger is different enough that it should also be available in AMR/L.

I would love to see similar descriptions for all the other roles.

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Inverted Winger wouldn't make a lot of sense in the AMR/L because there wouldn't be enough space or a good enough angle to do anything from out wide that high up. A similar but not identical role would be AML/R Winger-Support if combined with an attacking FB/WB and the TI to Overlap. In that scenario the winger will prioritise holding the ball up and laying it off the attacking fullback. You don't get the cutting in aspect, however.

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Could you please be more specific about the behavior of MEZ and CAR? Which are their hardcoded movements (e.g. I can 'see' the HB dropping deep between centre backs but still not sure about MEZ and CAR)? Thanks.

Edited by kandersson

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1 minute ago, kandersson said:

Could you please be more specific about the behavior of MEZ and CAR? Which are their hardcoded movements (e.g. I can 'see' the HB dropping back between centre backs but still not sure about MEZ and CAR)?

I'm going to leave that to someone else more qualified. I'm a bit of footballing dinosaur and the mere mention of foreign sounding roles leaves me feeling a little like ... 

Exorcism.thumb.jpg.c7a533046eb314f6feac72a2e0d69339.jpg

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45 minutes ago, kandersson said:

Could you please be more specific about the behavior of MEZ and CAR? Which are their hardcoded movements (e.g. I can 'see' the HB dropping deep between centre backs but still not sure about MEZ and CAR)? Thanks.

I can but I won’t be yet. I want people to use the role and see for themselves by experimenting. I’ve gave more than enough information so people can see how it acts and what the roles involve. It’s no fun if someone’s tells you every single aspect 🤣

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I am still to experiment with a HB so I'll ask here hoping that someone did try this. I remember from past years experience that, when the HB dropped between the CBs, they didn't split wide if you played four at the back. Does anybody know if it has been fixed?

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1 hour ago, Armistice said:

I am still to experiment with a HB so I'll ask here hoping that someone did try this. I remember from past years experience that, when the HB dropped between the CBs, they didn't split wide if you played four at the back. Does anybody know if it has been fixed?

Lets stay on topic please :).

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23 hours ago, kandersson said:

Could you please be more specific about the behavior of MEZ and CAR? Which are their hardcoded movements (e.g. I can 'see' the HB dropping deep between centre backs but still not sure about MEZ and CAR)? Thanks.

Thus far in the beta I've been mostly playing a 4-3-1-2 tactic (sometimes a 4-1-3-2) largely inspired by the 2010 Benfica side in which Angel Di Maria and Ramires both played.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/02/benfica-the-most-attactive-side-in-europe/

Michael Cox describes the roles of Di Maria and Ramires as carrileros:

Quote

"The side essentially plays with a diamond in midfield, although with the carrileros so attacking"

"the offensive slant of the midfielders is compensated for by the fact that the two carrileros are very energetic, and work hard to get goalside when Benfica are not in possession. Indeed, this is a good example of how to play the diamond shape – Di Maria and Ramires play from inside to out, and are comfortable scrapping in midfield as well as getting to the byline and getting crosses in."

 

It's early days and I make these observations with a limited amount of playing time but I have experimated with both roles in the 4-3-1-2 and would argue that, in FM18 terms, both midfielders were actually playing as mezzalas in Benfica's system.  In this team di Maria and Ramires would play aggressively from the central position into the half spaces ahead.  I consider the FM18's mezzala a more progressive role than it's version of the carrilero; the mezzala is more involved in the attacking build up, getting into those half space in the final third of the pitch.  On the other hand I see FM18's carrilero as a lateral box to box midfielder - a touchline to touchline midfielder if you will. 

This is perhaps illustrated best when we look at the difference in the players heat maps, touches and passes recieved below; first up the mezzala (attack) as compared with the carrilero:-

Mezzala (attack) heat map Carrilero heat map

59f5e3d3bab75_ScreenShot2017-10-29at14_19_50.thumb.png.63fe2010b6a4a571440ca1664d67d380.png59f5e3d293811_ScreenShot2017-10-29at14_19_38.thumb.png.9ee13d3af8a2f2c62a8d5e90acd7a0ab.png

59f5eab4430be_ScreenShot2017-10-29at14_45_00.thumb.png.b543841b1d7cc146d85d3c55a47690b1.png59f5eab324985_ScreenShot2017-10-29at14_44_56.thumb.png.944be6abd7a159f11acfdf3fbe2fef0f.png

My initial impressions are that the mezzala acts in a similar way to it's central midfielder counterpart with certain shouts applied; whereas the carrilero has it's movement and pitch coverage 'hard wired' into the game.  If one were to compare the player instructions for each role one would find...

When the opposition has the ball the mezzala (support) closes down slightly more.

When his team has the ball the mezzala (support) is set to get further forward, move into channels and roam from position.  The carrileros movement appears to be 'hard wired' with the hold positionroam from position and dribble more/dribble less instructions unavailable.

Like the man in orthopaedic shoes I may stand corrected, but I consider the mezzala a more 'attack' minded role compared to the carrilero whose lateral movement makes him an ideal option for ensuring ball circulation in possession orientated sides.

 

 

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Quote

My initial impressions are that the mezzala acts in a similar way to it's central midfielder counterpart with certain shouts applied; 

The Mezzala is more attacking than a CMA and has behaviours that can't be replicated by adding certain shouts to the CM role. As A) The shouts have different weights for different roles and B) The Mezzala hardcoded to play wider and get further forward (on attack). It is the only role on the game that used half spaces correctly due to how its programmed. The Carrilero is expected to cover the side its on and offer width. Again this is hardcoded that it goes wider.

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6 hours ago, Cleon said:

The Mezzala is more attacking than a CMA and has behaviours that can't be replicated by adding certain shouts to the CM role. As A) The shouts have different weights for different roles and B) The Mezzala hardcoded to play wider and get further forward (on attack). It is the only role on the game that used half spaces correctly due to how its programmed. The Carrilero is expected to cover the side its on and offer width. Again this is hardcoded that it goes wider.

Hopefully this isn't going too far off topic: is it just these new roles that have differences that we can't see in the instructions screens?

To use a comparison that I've seen around: Box to Box Midfielder seems the same as CM(support) with 'roam from position' ticked, but are there hardcoded differences too?

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6 hours ago, Park said:

Hopefully this isn't going too far off topic: is it just these new roles that have differences that we can't see in the instructions screens?

To use a comparison that I've seen around: Box to Box Midfielder seems the same as CM(support) with 'roam from position' ticked, but are there hardcoded differences too?

No but the settings for all positions have different weights. So its more than just a CM support with roam from position ticked. 

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My original plan was to set up a flat midfield 3 of two Mezzala's both on attack either side of a Carrilero but to my horror you can't do this. My opinion was that's practically the current Man City 3 of Silva, Fernandinho, KDB but now I can't emulate this. Any ideas?

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6 hours ago, Romers said:

My original plan was to set up a flat midfield 3 of two Mezzala's both on attack either side of a Carrilero but to my horror you can't do this. My opinion was that's practically the current Man City 3 of Silva, Fernandinho, KDB but now I can't emulate this. Any ideas?

DLP-D, RPM and MEZ-A would be the way I would set them up.

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Btw not sure if it's been asked before but does any of these new roles attract the ball like a playmaker?

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33 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Btw not sure if it's been asked before but does any of these new roles attract the ball like a playmaker?

I haven't noticed them attracting the ball so far. I've been using the Mezzala role both on support and attack duty the most. It is very very effective role going forward and connecting with a False 9 and IF-A on the same side. Even on support duty, the Mezzala is more effective going forward than BBM or CM-A. I like the way they have coded it and is my favorite so far. Granted, I haven't used Segundo Volante yet, but I would assume it is similar going forward just from deeper position. I'm using Dele Alli in the Mezzala role at Barca, btw - Messi as F9, Suarez as IF-A, with Iniesta or Rakitic as AP/RPM.

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55 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Btw not sure if it's been asked before but does any of these new roles attract the ball like a playmaker?

No.

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3 hours ago, yonko said:

DLP-D, RPM and MEZ-A would be the way I would set them up.

Presume KDB would be the MEZ?

been using Seri as my MEZ and he seems to suit it.

Edited by Fritz13

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3 hours ago, Fritz13 said:

Presume KDB would be the MEZ?

been using Seri as my MEZ and he seems to suit it.

KDB as the RPM, Silva as the MEZ and Fernandinho as DLP-D is what I'm thinking actually.

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@yonko by having the if and mez on the same side, would they be attacking the same areas and getting in each other’s way since in the earlier description it said the mez strives to get into positions not unlike that of an if?

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One request Cleon, if you don't mind. I'd like to see more examples of well known players that suit the roles Mezzala-Segundo Volante-Carrilero, in order to better understand the terms. 

Are there any examples from the Premier League or well known Champions League teams?

If I understood correctly, I'd say that Lallana plays as a Mezzala(A) in Klopp's system, Henderson could be a Segundo Volante(S) and Carrilero could be Kante, but I'm not that sure.

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I'll not be adding to the initial opening post. I'll probably talk about the roles in more depth at a later date when I use them in my save. But I believe I gave good examples already from well famous/known teams and explained what the roles do. It's now down to you to decide who is/isn't one.

I'd not get too focused on players who might play the role in real life though. I'd concentrate on the descriptions of the role and focus on what it does and why, I believe I've gave people more than enough information to be able to decide whether someone can play the role or not. And ideas of if its a role they can use in their own sets up.

I don't mean to sound rude, I just don't want to get hung up on who might play it in real life as that's always up for interpretation. I'd rather just focus on how it plays in game and how to use it in systems.

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I previously asked to keep discussion about naming conventions to a different thread in order to keep this subject on topic and about the roles themselves.

Disappointingly this request is being ignored and I've had to hide several posts.  So you now leave me no other option but to say cut it out or warnings will follow.

This is the Tactics forum - people come here to understand how certain aspects (such as new roles) may impact the game from a tactical perspective.  The name of a role has no tactical impact.  Use the General Discussion forum and the Beta Feedback thread if you want to discuss that kind of thing.

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2 hours ago, Cleon said:

I'll not be adding to the initial opening post. I'll probably talk about the roles in more depth at a later date when I use them in my save. But I believe I gave good examples already from well famous/known teams and explained what the roles do. It's now down to you to decide who is/isn't one.

I'd not get too focused on players who might play the role in real life though. I'd concentrate on the descriptions of the role and focus on what it does and why, I believe I've gave people more than enough information to be able to decide whether someone can play the role or not. And ideas of if its a role they can use in their own sets up.

I don't mean to sound rude, I just don't want to get hung up on who might play it in real life as that's always up for interpretation. I'd rather just focus on how it plays in game and how to use it in systems.

Didn't sound rude at all, looking forward to your next posts about them!

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 From what I understand the Car will function as a lateral mover on just the side of the pitch they are set up? So if I set up on a diamond the left midfielder would move to the left only and the one on the right would do the opposite? They wouldn't cross swords so to speak?

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43 minutes ago, Marc.Foster050 said:

 From what I understand the Car will function as a lateral mover on just the side of the pitch they are set up? So if I set up on a diamond the left midfielder would move to the left only and the one on the right would do the opposite? They wouldn't cross swords so to speak?

They might cross at times or overlap but for most parts would stick to the side they play on yeah. If you use the role and find them moving over the opposite side too much then this is a bug and needs to be reported.

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14 hours ago, Jyuan83 said:

@yonko by having the if and mez on the same side, would they be attacking the same areas and getting in each other’s way since in the earlier description it said the mez strives to get into positions not unlike that of an if?

I haven't noticed it being a problem at all actually. I expected it to be, but tried it anyway. I use Roam From Position as TI and play on Control/Structured. Also, as I mentioned, I'm using Dele Alli as Mez and Suarez as the IF-A. Check their PPMs as I'm sure they play a role in the movement. They actually link up well together.

I'm currently experimenting with moving the Mez to MCR and playing next to Winger (AMR position) and see how that works. Not as good so far.

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On 29/10/2017 at 16:12, Cleon said:

The Mezzala is more attacking than a CMA and has behaviours that can't be replicated by adding certain shouts to the CM role. As A) The shouts have different weights for different roles and B) The Mezzala hardcoded to play wider and get further forward (on attack). It is the only role on the game that used half spaces correctly due to how its programmed. The Carrilero is expected to cover the side its on and offer width. Again this is hardcoded that it goes wider.

I dont have the game yet, because i play FMT in a ipad, but i'm very curious to test the Mezzala role in my usual, and favourite, 41221 formation:

CF(s)

IF(s)                                        W(s)

AP(s)           Mez(a)

DM(d)

WB(a)     CD(d)      CD(D)     FB(s)

SK(d)

In previous years, i was playing with a CM(a) in that position in the midfield, but the Mezzala could work even better, taking advantage of the space that the winger provide.

Another idea i want to test is using a Raumdeuter in that right flank, instead of the winger, so that the Mezzala exploits the open space leave by the Raumdeuter when he comes inside.

I think it's gonna be fun. 

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On 31/10/2017 at 15:44, BillHoudini24 said:

One request Cleon, if you don't mind. I'd like to see more examples of well known players that suit the roles Mezzala-Segundo Volante-Carrilero, in order to better understand the terms. 

Are there any examples from the Premier League or well known Champions League teams?

If I understood correctly, I'd say that Lallana plays as a Mezzala(A) in Klopp's system, Henderson could be a Segundo Volante(S) and Carrilero could be Kante, but I'm not that sure.

Would Pogba be a MEZ (A) and Fellaini a SV (A)?

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Im looking for help to try understand the inverted winger role. Would i be wrong to say Robben and Ribery under Heynckes in the 2011-13 period were inverted wingers? Which role (Fullback, wing back, CWB) do you recommend to link up with the inverted winger? im a bit confused as wing backs link up well with inside forwards and FBs are great with wingers.

Thanks for any help.

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5 minutes ago, hawkgg said:

Im looking for help to try understand the inverted winger role. Would i be wrong to say Robben and Ribery under Heynckes in the 2011-13 period were inverted wingers? Which role (Fullback, wing back, CWB) do you recommend to link up with the inverted winger? im a bit confused as wing backs link up well with inside forwards and FBs are great with wingers.

Thanks for any help.

Those are great examples and would be accurate yeah. As for what roles link well with them it entirely depends what type of football you are creating. All of them are actually viable so you're not really limited :)

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On 10/28/2017 at 10:00, Atarin said:

The inverted winger sounds like exactly what I was hoping for. It describes Leyton Orient legend Dean Cox perfectly. A right footed player that played on the left, would run with the ball down the flank until he got about 18 yards out, he'd feint to hit the byline and then check, drag the ball inside - the overlapping fullback would shoot past him for the overload option - Cox could then lay it off to the fullback or nip inside the disorientated defender and whip in an inswinging cross for Kevin Lisbie to head home or smash one home himself. Ahhhh, how I miss that team.

That's always been a position that's needed addressed, all we had before was either winger or inside forward, Ashley Young is the perfect example of the inverted winger.

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So using a mezalla along with an advanced playmaker is not recommended then, since both of them will push up the pitch a lot and leave a lot of space behind. 

oh and since Carrilero and Mezalla both likes to go wide during the games, using both of them at the same time might cause a weakness in the middle of the pitch, correct? 

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8 hours ago, CapaJr said:

So using a mezalla along with an advanced playmaker is not recommended then, since both of them will push up the pitch a lot and leave a lot of space behind. 

oh and since Carrilero and Mezalla both likes to go wide during the games, using both of them at the same time might cause a weakness in the middle of the pitch, correct? 

@CapaJr the Mezzala tries to drift wide into the half-space like an inside forward. The duty of the Carrilero is to provide shuttle around lateral areas to cover attacking wing-backs. Both have the PI “Roam from Position” hardcoded, so putting both in a midfield 3 and esp 2 will cause potential gaps in the midfield. You could use 2 inverted wing backs to negate this issue though.

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On 10/30/2017 at 22:33, MoxeysTheName said:

Why isn't the carrilero, for example, not just called a shuttler in the English language versions. More people would know what that is and what it wouldn't be running for a dictionary in same way they would for carrilero( don't even if that is the correct spelling as I have to keep scrolling up and down the page just to be in with a chance of spelling it correctly).

Quote

Roles like Trequartista, Carrilero and Ramdeuter were to some extent pioneered but certainly best encapsulated by non-English speaking players, playing in non-English speaking countries. If you look at the Trequartista for example...say that word in Italy or Spain and they automa

Have a look at this webpage, it explains what a half space is. To be honest in England they are generally called channels. It can get confusing at times because channels also describe the lateral gaps between defenders but there you go.

Half-Spaces

An Inverted Winger plays defensively out on the wing (RM/LM) but cuts inside and occupies the channel/half-space (AMCL/AMCR). A Mezzala starts centrally (CM/CMR/CML) and drifts out into the half space (AMCL/AMCR).

A Carrilero starts out at MCL or MCR and tries to cover the ML or MR.

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13 hours ago, goqs06 said:

@CapaJr the Mezzala tries to drift wide into the half-space like an inside forward. The duty of the Carrilero is to provide shuttle around lateral areas to cover attacking wing-backs. Both have the PI “Roam from Position” hardcoded, so putting both in a midfield 3 and esp 2 will cause potential gaps in the midfield. You could use 2 inverted wing backs to negate this issue though.

Thank you for that feedback. 

What about using a roaming Mezzala with a Advanced playmaker support role? i think that role isn't as roaming as Mezzala, right? 

would that work?

or would DLP role instead of a AP-S would be a more safer bet? 

(those two will be partnered with a third midfielder at DM-D role) 

Edited by CapaJr

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18 hours ago, Atarin said:

Have a look at this webpage, it explains what a half space is. To be honest in England they are generally called channels. It can get confusing at times because channels also describe the lateral gaps between defenders but there you go.

Half-Spaces

An Inverted Winger plays defensively out on the wing (RM/LM) but cuts inside and occupies the channel/half-space (AMCL/AMCR). A Mezzala starts centrally (CM/CMR/CML) and drifts out into the half space (AMCL/AMCR).

A Carrilero starts out at MCL or MCR and tries to cover the ML or MR.

 

12 hours ago, CapaJr said:

Thank you for that feedback. 

What about using a roaming Mezzala with a Advanced playmaker support role? i think that role isn't as roaming as Mezzala, right? 

would that work?

or would DLP role instead of a AP-S would be a more safer bet? 

(those two will be partnered with a third midfielder at DM-D role) 

@Atarin and @CapaJr these pictures should help!

0DD7D9DE-C3B6-4E3B-B825-29B5F9B9F5F0.jpeg

F9DEBB01-A903-44BD-8900-B72D14ED4B54.jpeg

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Quick question for those who understand these roles better than me:

If I use a Mezzala on the right of a midfield three and have an Inside Forward ahead of him to the right, would they likely get in each other's way? Will the Mezzala work better with wingers (or wingbacks)?

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4 hours ago, shaggydo said:

Quick question for those who understand these roles better than me:

If I use a Mezzala on the right of a midfield three and have an Inside Forward ahead of him to the right, would they likely get in each other's way? Will the Mezzala work better with wingers (or wingbacks)?

All part of the fun of experimenting :).  Just load up a quick game (no need to save it) and watch how the players move around & interact.

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