Football Manager 2017 17.3.0 Official Feedback Thread

[HUNT3R]

30 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

Just lost 4-1 against a newly promoted team.  Of course I had more chances and SOTs and so forth.  It seems like "Attacking" mentality basically means "lose faster".  I may try an experiment where I always keep mentality 2 notches below where I normally would.  The risky passing, wasteful shooting, and high defensive lines of the higher mentalities heavily outweigh any benefits.  Has anyone actually had success with tactics based around "attacking" mentality?

There's more to a tactic than simply the Mentality. Both Cleon and Rashidi have shown that you can successfully set up a tactic with an Attacking Mentality. One was called the Dark Arts of...

[themadsheep2001]

4 hours ago, jujigatame said:

 

Actually, I wouldn't say it always happens to my team, not the opponent.  I'm sure the AI has similar issues.  I'm in something like 7th place as Leverkusen right now, but Bayern is actually BEHIND me, despite having a megasquad.  Yet I've seen this happen before, and somehow they always get it sorted out after 10-12 games and then go on a massive winning run and take the league.  So the AI has issues with streakiness too.

But my issue with streakiness is more of an in-game issue.  It's like there are 2 choices:

1) My strikers are "on form" and I score 4-5 goals.

2) My strikers are awful and maybe I get lucky with some set pieces or defensive mistakes.

I dunno, maybe you could argue that this is realistic.  But I do seem to fall into the same pattern every season.

You fall into the pattern every year, because based on your posts, you tunnel in on the same thing every year. 

If the AI can avoid streaky form, and other players can avoid it, why can't you. Because you don't maintain three iterations of streaky form without some user output. I strongly suggest you jump onto the T and T forums 

[Mr U Rosler]

I had the strangest sequence of results in any version of FM (over 10,000 hours) on this years version.

Was 3rd in the League and one of highest goal scoring teams and playing great, I then lost 10 games in a row without scoring a SINGLE goal in those 10 games

It got silly in the end, losing 5-0 with all the goals against 25-30 yard longshots finding the top corner.

I have a lot sympathy with Streaky Strikers although you see this a lot IRL.

My analysis was that I employed a narrow tactic with play focused through the middle (41212 Diamond), my Strikers scored the vast majority of my goals. During this period 2 of my 4 strikers were injured so I had to play 2 out of form strikers during this sequence, out of form they could not hit a barn door with a banjo, I lost a few games which then snow balled into terrible morale at which point tactics and player quality seemed irrelevant as some other 'force' seemed to take over which meant opponents could score from anywhere on the pitch whilst I missed multiple clear cut chances.

The upshot of this is I only use a lone Striker now (4141), don't focus play through the middle and spread the goalscoring burden across the team (especially midfield) so you are less vulnerable to Strikers hitting a lean streak.

    

 

[Svenc]

17 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

The upshot of this is I only use a lone Striker now (4141), don't focus play through the middle and spread the goalscoring burden across the team (especially midfield) so you are less vulnerable to Strikers hitting a lean streak.

    

 

This is very very good advice! If most of the shots fall to one guy, or you create only one type of chance in general by channeling play through one two players, you are more likely to be defended when those guys don't switch on.

The last Rainmaker you posted though is also vulnerable to those streaks imo, as it is at least rather risky and doesn't suscribe to how teams play football. I mean it looks fun and nothing should ever prevent us from doing anything like that (part of the attraction of the game surely is all these what if questions...). But it's a 4-1-4-1 with both of the central mids which would/could protect the d-line on sup duty / box2box, plus the exploit the middle TI enabled on top. What that does is making both push up ASAP (exploit the middle pretty much tells every supp duty player in the middle of the park to "push further forward), compressing the attacking space too -- if nobody is staying slightly deeper there is no back pass on to ever rebuild attacks and back passes also force defenses sitting ducks to push up again rather than sitting ducks until the move is intercepted / the shot is blasted. Depending on how the AI plays (pack the middle, drop deep, lure out, etc.) this can become more/less effective overnight. One of the reasons to have a reasonably balanced core, though as said, in an ideal world AI would actually adapt some to this, rather than creating streaks simply because different managers have different bias and preferred formations.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Svenc

[Mr U Rosler]

4 minutes ago, Svenc said:

This is very very good advice! If most of the shots fall to one guy, or you create only one type of chance in general by channeling play through one two players, you are more likely to be defended when those guys don't switch on.

The last Rainmaker you posted though is also vulnerable to those streaks imo, as it is at least rather risky and doesn't suscribe to how teams play football. I mean it looks fun and nothing should ever prevent us from doing anything like that (part of the attraction of the game surely is all these what if questions...). But it's a 4-1-4-1 with both of the central mids which would/could protect the d-line on sup duty / box2box, plus the exploit the middle TI enabled on top. What that does is making both push up ASAP (exploit the middle pretty much tells every supp duty player in the middle of the park to "push further forward), compressing the attacking space too -- if nobody is staying slightly deeper there is no back pass on to ever rebuild attacks and back passes also force defenses sitting ducks to push up again rather than sitting ducks until the move is intercepted / the shot is blasted. Depending on how the AI plays (pack the middle, drop deep, lure out, etc.) this can become more/less effective overnight. One of the reasons to have a reasonably balanced core, though as said, in an ideal world AI would actually adapt some to this, rather than creating streaks simply because different managers have different bias and preferred formations.

Whilst I've ended up back at a 4141 (+ defensive variant) I actually used 11 different tactics during my last promotion season seeking consistency.

I still have the 2 central midfielders on support but don't focus play through the middle, with a lone Striker I have a very strong urge to get support to him fairly quickly, the DM provides deep cover and is available for recycling possession.

Our backline does get exposed at times but we do a fair bit of exposing ourselves and i'm happy to play on the front foot most of the time.

Every system has strengths and weaknesses as there is no perfect set up, i'm over achieving and happy with this............ for now!  

[themadsheep2001]

I use a 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-4-1. Each contains at least 3 other players that are secondary scorers. 

[jujigatame]

My scoring is not all channeled through 1 guy.  I usually play 2 strikers.  When I don't, I usually have IFs and an AP/RPM to support the attack.

This is the thing.  When I go to the tactic analysis screen, it looks like all my tactics are awesome!  I vastly outcreate my opponents!  Yet I'm 6-3-6 in the league.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, jujigatame said:

My scoring is not all channeled through 1 guy.  I usually play 2 strikers.  When I don't, I usually have IFs and an AP/RPM to support the attack.

This is the thing.  When I go to the tactic analysis screen, it looks like all my tactics are awesome!  I vastly outcreate my opponents!  Yet I'm 6-3-6 in the league.

We still have no idea what your system looks like or the decisions you make.

[Maaaaaardy]

Having 30 shots a game and losing to lesser teams constantly, changing tactics doesn't seem to help the matter. Cannot get anything to work for a decent period of time, if I do start to pick up good results the tactic stops working after a couple of months and it is making seasons impossible to make any progress whatsoever.

[jujigatame]

3 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

We still have no idea what your system looks like or the decisions you make.

I don't really have a system.  I have a few formations that suit my players, and I try to play them in roles that combine sensibly.  That's about it.

I've implemented my "only play standard mentality" experiment and so far I've won 4 straight by a total of 10 goals.  But who knows, it could be luck.  I think half of all FM discussion is people being fooled by randomness.

[jujigatame]

Also, why do players even bother negotiating release clauses?  When they want to leave, the "you have a release clause and if they bid that much I can't do anything about it" response NEVER satisfies them.  Ever.

[themadsheep2001]

36 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

I don't really have a system.  I have a few formations that suit my players, and I try to play them in roles that combine sensibly.  That's about it.

I've implemented my "only play standard mentality" experiment and so far I've won 4 straight by a total of 10 goals.  But who knows, it could be luck.  I think half of all FM discussion is people being fooled by randomness.

Even within those formations you should have an idea of how those roles combine both with each other and the mentality and risk you choose. 

[jujigatame]

26 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Even within those formations you should have an idea of how those roles combine both with each other and the mentality and risk you choose. 

I feel like I have a good idea of the former.  Maybe not so much of the latter.

[Sussex Hammer]

Has anyone else found since the last patch that an awful lot of penalties (most of which are missed but that's another story) are being given (on both sides) due to what I assume is some sort of a push as a ball comes in from a corner, free kick, cross or a throw in.  My heart is in my mouth every single time an aerial ball comes into my penalty area in the highlights now because this happens regularly.  Not one penalty has been due to a trip or a foul in the box, all from aerial balls into the area.  So not sure if others are experiencing the same thing or if it's some sort of a tactical issue I have but as I say it happens to both teams.  Never seen so many penalties conceded this way in any previous FM or even the patches before the last one.

[Svenc]

20 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Whilst I've ended up back at a 4141 (+ defensive variant) I actually used 11 different tactics during my last promotion season seeking consistency.

Every system has strengths and weaknesses as there is no perfect set up, i'm over achieving and happy with this............ for now!  

Also a fantastic statement!! I think I confused it though. I meant the 4-4-1-1 with two b2bs that lead to wild results as you had recorded with 6-4s outright, and as you found, streaks could already be influenced by the ups and downs in reputation. That one looks fun, but as you said, wild!! https://postimg.cc/image/mzxg9inhx/

 

Quote

I think half of all FM discussion is people being fooled by randomness.

A bit like in football, where good runs can be wholly down to the fixture list plus nothing but luck. I love the current Bundesliga season, where the difference between getting embroiled in a relegation battle and competing for European spots is basically a couple lucky strikes and the top performers legs finally lasting a fully season. Yet  despite it all there's still a club for every Euro / World Cup that overspends on the guy performing above his ability for five matches and when arriving at the club, soon degressing to the mean (or bench) thereafter. Translated to FM, that's why rather than looking at trends, it may be worth looking at the longer-term. The game out of the box don't provide much on this outside of the player and team reports (overall shot conversion). This thread is a classic as it demonstrates how we can perceive those streaks/saves, and sometimes things aren't as dire as they are perceived at all:  https://community.sigames.com/topic/243260-why-is-the-ai-so-much-better-at-finishing/?page=10#comment-7831263

I think part of the problem of this game is that you can be incredibly successful overall without having the slightest clue as to why, up to the point that outside of transfer windows you would just hit continue. In particular as the game seems considered a "learning sim" as per SI, a thing where you never really stop learning (in particular after AI upgrades and the like... which hopefully would be slightly more clever by now than on the no holding midfielder set-ups as of FM 2012ish, making midfields a walk-in every time, but then there is still enough weird stuff going on, as argued previous). If one's doing fine overall, why bother? Just carry on, and blame every hiccup on the FM gods, the weather, the ball being too bouncy on the night and the broken match engine (which is clearly not without faults, see also last page). But that's a different topic.

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Svenc

[Chinook2000]

Do title odds now change through the season and has expectation become relevant to the position your prospective club is in at the time of interview?

[pedrosantos]

Maybe a moderator can shed some light on this, but I always wonder why SI updates FM with the winter transfer market and also fixing some issues and then, between March and late October, there's not even an little hotfix. I understand that ME issues can be tricky to fix, and also there's a lot of times that people report issues and afterall SI comes to the conclusion that there isn't an issue, but for sure there are some non-ME issues (such as contracts, UI issues, etc) that could have some solution without all the playing commnunity having to wait 7 months (until the next FM edition is released) for a fix. Is this just some option or policy to leave it like this ? Thanks

[FrazT]

Just to  clarify-

FM 15 had 2 hotfixes after the transfer window update

FM 16 had 2 hotfixes after the transfer window update

FM 17 has had 1 hotfix since the transfer window update

[Tony Wright 747]

7 hours ago, FrazT said:

Just to  clarify-

FM 15 had 2 hotfixes after the transfer window update

FM 16 had 2 hotfixes after the transfer window update

FM 17 has had 1 hotfix since the transfer window update

Hi FrazT

 

What date was the latest hotfix for FM 16

[FrazT]

21/7/16

 

[themadsheep2001]

On 15/04/2017 at 23:46, jujigatame said:

I feel like I have a good idea of the former.  Maybe not so much of the latter.

You should elaborate on the thread you opened. Rashidi is brilliant and explaining mentality to roles. I'm more than happy to help out too 

[nyte`]

Is it just my game being an outlier or did the last patch tweak the number of wonderkid regens? My latest game is only in 2021 and most of the star players, in their mid to late 20s, at top teams have already been replaced by wonderkids or young stars. 

[westy8chimp]

On ‎15‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 06:27, jujigatame said:

Has anyone actually had success with tactics based around "attacking" mentality?

this is an interesting question. I have had success - with PSG (a team you would expect to win everything with) ... I used a 41221 (Left to right). Attacking, Fluid, Shorter Passing, Lower Tempo, Higher line, Much more closing Down. 0 PI.

GK (D)

WB (S)

BPD (D)

CB (C)

FB (S)

DLP (D)

AP (A)

BBM (S)

IF (S)

WG (A)

CF (S)

I'm 7 seasons in ... won the league and French cups every year and 4 champions leagues.

... Got bored of the French league so thought I'd finally settle on my last long term save with my Arsenal team. Sanchez as IF, Ozil as AP ... seemed like an easy choice ...

started brilliantly something like 7 wins from 7 with loads of goals... then hit the patch !! Suddenly couldn't score goals and defence went to pot. Lost 7 in a row ... was working from home so didn't really have time/focus to tweak tactic ... so I've quit that save.

I think for my long term save I'm going to just go back to a mid-low table team like Bournemouth or QPR and play counter attacking football  

[westy8chimp]

Question: I've started two new saves in the last few days ... on my first new save it remembered my 'advanced setup' (15 or so nations selected at differing levels) I forgot to set it to 'pick team later' so had to start another new save... clicked on advanced setup and it went back to the default and I had to re-select all my Nations/leagues!!

Is there a way to make it remember my preferred leagues? Was I just lucky? I didn't change any preferences yet it behaved differently. weird.

[hamilton81]

My team has gone to a penalty shootout but I cannot see the button to continue? Isn't there a continue or match button at the top normally?

[Mons]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

Question: I've started two new saves in the last few days ... on my first new save it remembered my 'advanced setup' (15 or so nations selected at differing levels) I forgot to set it to 'pick team later' so had to start another new save... clicked on advanced setup and it went back to the default and I had to re-select all my Nations/leagues!!

Is there a way to make it remember my preferred leagues? Was I just lucky? I didn't change any preferences yet it behaved differently. weird.

If you added any editor data files between the two saves, the advanced setup will not be "retained" by FM.

[westy8chimp]

Just now, Mons said:

If you added any editor data files between the two saves, the advanced setup will not be "retained" by FM.

Never used editor

Up till now FM17 had never remembered my advanced settings ... so when it happened a few days ago I wondered if a tweak had been done by SI ... and then was disappointed to see it hadn't when I started another new save.

Do your settings get kept when you start a new game? if so how...

[Mons]

34 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Never used editor

Up till now FM17 had never remembered my advanced settings ... so when it happened a few days ago I wondered if a tweak had been done by SI ... and then was disappointed to see it hadn't when I started another new save.

Do your settings get kept when you start a new game? if so how...

You don't have to use the editor to use editor data files. Did you download a league file or something similar?

 

When I keep the same editor data files, starting a new game always retains the setting used in the previous save game start. When I add any editor data files, however, these settings are lost and the default league setting is then used.

[johnhughthom]

49 minutes ago, hamilton81 said:

My team has gone to a penalty shootout but I cannot see the button to continue? Isn't there a continue or match button at the top normally?

Have you tried to continue with the space bar?

[westy8chimp]

13 minutes ago, Mons said:

Did you download a league file or something similar?

nothing... not added any files since the CM days when I could be bothered to add badges and change the style of the ball etc.

Puzzle!

[Mons]

2 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

nothing... not added any files since the CM days when I could be bothered to add badges and change the style of the ball etc.

Puzzle!

Well that is strange

[Long Islander]

This might have been mentioned earlier, but I miss reviewing U-23 and U-18 matches and clicking on each individual to read comment on how each fared in the match.  FM17 only gives a rating.

[eriktous]

3 hours ago, Long Islander said:

This might have been mentioned earlier, but I miss reviewing U-23 and U-18 matches and clicking on each individual to read comment on how each fared in the match.  FM17 only gives a rating.

I'm pretty sure it still does. Could it be that you don't have the youth matches being played in full detail?

[vasterrr]

 

Hi, I have a problem with the selection of the team, all the teams are in gray, or write can not add the player "As Monaco" is not the correct choice.

Pls help me i want play;(

[johnhughthom]

2 hours ago, vasterrr said:

 

Hi, I have a problem with the selection of the team, all the teams are in gray, or write can not add the player "As Monaco" is not the correct choice.

Pls help me i want play;(

Did you select the option to make clubs that have managers unavailable to use when starting the game?

[FrazT]

5 hours ago, vasterrr said:

 

Hi, I have a problem with the selection of the team, all the teams are in gray, or write can not add the player "As Monaco" is not the correct choice.

Pls help me i want play;(

This has been resolved in another thread.

[Guest El Payaso]

I have to say that this version of FM has proven highly disappointing for me. Many aspects of the game are highly repetitive from previous years which makes it dull if you record a large amount of playing hours. I've basically never been a player that likes to view full matches but still I think it's okay to claim that for example playing on extended highlights it's really easy for me to predict what is going to happen next and that makes the highlights really dull in a long run. I previously started a new save with Real Sociedad and with commentary only. So how I would summarize the game in terms of the ME.

Statistically for example the amount of goals is alright and I think that the results in general are in realistic way which makes it okay to play with only commentary. But looking more close I would say that there are far too many good scoring chances. Even with a decent club you can basically in every game rely that you get more than enough chances to actually score. Even with big teams like Real Madrid it's okay to win games by 3-7 goals but getting that huge amount of CCCs and HCs is telling that something is wrong. In real life what creates the goals for them is not that they constantly create huge amount of chances and shots, it's the quality of the players. They only need few chances to score those few goals they score. Also one thing to note about is that fairly low percentage of goals/chances created are actually 'valid' in which I mean that they are scenarios that would happen IRL. I just watched the goals from AI vs AI Villarreal vs Barcelona in which Villarreal got 4 CCCs and 4 HCs which itself is really high. All of the four goals Villarreal scored came from slow buildups with clear short handed attack where Barca had enough players to defend and nullify. In every move Villarreal just passed the ball around until eventually one of the world class markers from Barca forgot their man and there was a through on goal situation or a free cross to penalty area where there was again a disastrous marking error.

I think that the wide players' defensive positioning was supposed to help on wide area defending but clearly it hasn't done it. The overlapping full back is still able to terrorize defenses with freedom. This leads to the situation where the centre backs are facing too much pressure from crosses and they cannot deal with all of them. This on the other hand leads to the fact that wide areas are a too certain source of scoring chances and goals. I've seen singular wide players exceeding attempted crosses numbers of a whole team per game IRL and in general I would say that these numbers are double or triple compared to real life.

Now the lack of players defending the middle parts of the pitch has made it even more disastrous there. Midfielders and supporting strikers are having too much of the ball and especially the support duty striker is a really devastating tool in the game. I've seen strikers getting more than hundred pass attempts per game regularly and these passing attempts (mainly successful) are in the areas of the pitch where they never should have freedom to pass the ball around. On the other hand for example centre backs are not on the ball enough and they are only recording really small numbers of pass attempts per game which suggests that holding the ball high up the pitch is too easy.

I think these are the two main gripes on the match engine. Of course I would hope that it would be possible to achieve what is possible IRL like Kante winning the player of the year award in a BWM/BBM role by making bigger difference tactically in terms of stats but I think this has always been the case: making big differences both in how the team playing in the match engine or doing statistically is really hard if not impossible.

 

[artiebucco]

Is there any chance at all of the ability to use a 'real' manager photo, as was possible before the latest patch, making a comeback? I understand that it wasn't supposed to be in the game in the first place, but given how many people have said that it negatively impacts their enjoyment of the game it seems weird to have removed it. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by artiebucco

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, artiebucco said:

Is there any chance at all of the ability to use a 'real' manager photo, as was possible before the latest patch, making a comeback? I understand that it wasn't supposed to be in the game in the first place, but given how many people have said that it negatively impacts their enjoyment of the game it seems weird to have removed it. 

SI have stated that how it is now will be how it'll stay for FM17.

[KUBI]

19 minutes ago, artiebucco said:

Is there any chance at all of the ability to use a 'real' manager photo, as was possible before the latest patch, making a comeback? I understand that it wasn't supposed to be in the game in the first place, but given how many people have said that it negatively impacts their enjoyment of the game it seems weird to have removed it. 

I think the Vitrex skin makes it possible to use a manager photo.

[artiebucco]

4 hours ago, KUBI said:

I think the Vitrex skin makes it possible to use a manager photo.

Ah I just tried it and I don't think it works anymore  

[roykela]

After observing the scout report of my next opponents, for about 1 1/2 season now, i've noticed that the reports want me to pay attention to the same type of players.
These players, i should pay particular attention to, are always defenders. Which is fine (These are my 3 latest reports about the upcoming opponent but it's all the same).
Never a midfielder or a striker.
I'm wondering if that is happening to anyone else?
Is it my scout or just an unfortunate combination of random stuff in my game?

Why only defenders?

 

My scout:

 

[johnhughthom]

I'm pretty sure the attribute that is used for next opposition reports is Tactical Knowledge (certainly in my experience when you have more than one scout, the game will always select the one with the highest Tactical Knowledge for reports on the next opposition). His is very low and perhaps affects the range (and/or accuracy) of reports he can produce?

[roykela]

That could very well be a thing.
I have started a new season with the same team now and the Chief Scout didn't want to renew his contract.
So he left and i got a new one:



Finding a proper scout, who's interested in coming to my crappy team, is hard. This one was the best i could find.
I let the Chief Scout set the scouting assignments and he has put himself to scout the next opposition; as my previous Chief Scout did.
The first (and only at the moment) next opposition report he produces again tells me to pay "particular attention" to a defender.
After my first post i made sure to check it thoroughly, for the rest of the season and it was always, without fail, a defender i should pay attention to. Regardless of what team the opposition was and the quality/performance of the players.
It seems like those scout reports, on next opposition, are very focused on distance covered and interceptions.

This new Chief Scout has got Tactical Knowledge of 6.
A regular scout of mine, however has got 9 in Tacical Knowledge; and the game (Chief Scout) has set him on a different assignment.
But he's also worse at judging player ability and potential. Based on what i see here is that the game seem to use JPA and possibly JPP to set the assignment of scouting next opposition.

Assignments:


Scout with highest Tacical Knowledge is assigned to scout Iceland:


As you say; it can very well be due to the low Tacical Knowledge but i can't shake off that feeling that there's something more/else.
Over 2 years of reports on the next opposition and every report singles out a defender?
What i mean about that rethorical question is; regardless of how good or bad the tacical knowledge is, surely they would (should?) recognize more creative players as well?
Like the AMC with 13 assists in 8 games and 7.36 in average rating (Numbers taken out of my rectum), or the Winger with 9 goals in 6 games (Whoops! More numbers found inside there)?

[Guest El Payaso]

By watching a couple of matches on full I would claim that by far the biggest issue with the ME is that at any part of the pitch you will not face any kind of pressure on the ball. Defending could be so much better with just defending players sticking close to the opposition and putting some pressure. At the moment when you watch it and you can see 20-30 one touch passes combined with ease as there is too much space to play them and no-one is ever on your back putting pressure. It just looks that it is really hard to lose possession even when your players pass the ball at the edge of the opposition penalty area. It's a bit like watching some 40-50-year-old legends' games where everybody is having a bit of fun and no-one is getting hurt.

One thing that I also don't enjoy is the transfer system. The AI is not keeping hold of their best players and too many players become journeymen as the teams are willing to sell and players willing to move. The AI teams keep selling to their rivals and the players never seem to snub moves to same caliber clubs. We've seen in real life that getting players isn't exactly that simple and the game doesn't produce that at all. I would claim that for example Atletico Madrid are acting like Southampton do in real life: even if they are successful they still sell their best players. Although Atletico should be one of the biggest and also should have one of the most loyal players but still their players are being poached by smaller clubs like Spurs.

[Bigpapa42]

Okay, this is just frustrating as hell. I bought a Russian right back for my Russian club for €4.5m. He has become a key player, star, and is worth €17.5m. I got a bid from a German club (smaller club by some margin, but more reputable league). Player was upset. I told him I would sell him if a reasonable offer came in, and we agreed on €24.5m. He was irrevocably transfer listed after that. Next window, a €10m bid comes in. Barely a third of the agreed value. I attempt to negotiate it up closer to that €24.5m mark. The club, Schalke, walks away. Player freaks out. Perfectly reasonable bid to him. Now I keep getting bids that are lower and lower and clubs won't negotiate them. If I try and adjust the bid at all, the bidding club walks away. This has happened 3 times now. 

Edit and just happened again with a different player. Real Madrid came in with a bid about 10m below the "agreed bid price" and the player is enraged I didn't accept it. Its pretty much killing this save dead for me.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Bigpapa42

[Guest]

Check the asking price set on the player's transfer page as sometimes that can default to the value of the first rejected offer & iirc is a known issue, even if that's the cause I would still raise it in the bugs forum & ideally with a save shortly before the €10m bid comes in.

[Svenc]

On 24.4.2017 at 10:25, El Payaso said:

Statistically for example the amount of goals is alright and I think that the results in general are in realistic way which makes it okay to play with only commentary. But looking more close I would say that there are far too many good scoring chances. Even with a decent club you can basically in every game rely that you get more than enough chances to actually score. Even with big teams like Real Madrid it's okay to win games by 3-7 goals but getting that huge amount of CCCs and HCs is telling that something is wrong. In real life what creates the goals for them is not that they constantly create huge amount of chances and shots, it's the quality of the players.

Touching on some good points. The shots and CCC issue though is a long-term ME (and definition) issue, but I don't think in the way you make it out to be in parts. Firstly those chance categories are and have always been as reliable as Arsenal are at missing those (up to 5 a match in football). Most of those CCCs in-game really aren't all that when clicking on the dots. Some of that was on the last page, and Dave1990 will likely link his CCC bug thread again. It has always been easy to amass shots however, this isn't just human players but also AI. If you want to provoke it some, simply drop deep. Good shots, that is some different. What SI should be looking at is those low-percentage shots inflating the numbers, leading to fake domination depending on tactics of both sides. The matches where up to 3/4+ of the stuff is from set pieces, range, forwards immediately closed down, a mix. Oft highlighted further by one-dimensional human player tactics, of course.

That's a domination in all but a very simple stats. If this had anything like the Expected Goals model off analysis, you could have 20+ attempts, and the expected amount of goals to show still well under 1. At its most extreme, matches can be borderline unwatchable, with every single attack deflected or stopped by a foul or the ball kicked into the touch and the forward becoming increasingly frustrated/nervous blasting the few half decent over and over again. I too wish for a ME however were bad tactical approaches / massed defenses don't necessarily lead to a big amount of low-percentage shots, but no to few shots at all. Crazy tactics will likely always be prone to funny stats. Still think Si should invite somebody like that into their Beta testing, if they haven't. This can highlight areas that aren't picked up, as the testers likely mostly by "logical" setups, which then is also little different to AI managers soak tested.

You can win/dominate leagues with averaging but 14-15 shots per match and two plus goals averaged off those, which is on the lowly side, provided those are decent shots and there is space created. So it depends on tactics at least some. It seems a fairly subjective area. Whilst for you it is perceived there's always enough chances to score at least one for your side, somebody struggling to score that one goal despite masses of statistically attempts typically perceives that a bit differently. Thumbs up  to any encouragements made for AI manager improvements.
 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Svenc

[Guest El Payaso]

12 hours ago, Svenc said:

Touching on some good points. The shots and CCC issue though is a long-term ME (and definition) issue, but I don't think in the way you make it out to be in parts. Firstly those chance categories are and have always been as reliable as Arsenal are at missing those (up to 5 a match in football). Most of those CCCs in-game really aren't all that when clicking on the dots.
 

Well the CCC thing is kinda swinging both ways as the game isn't counting really easy chances even as HCs like in my last game against Atletico. Statistically they had 1 CCCs and 2 HCs in a game they won 3-1 and all of their goals were really easy finishes for them and none of those were counted as any kind of chance. 

For me the match engine is quite much unwatchable because of the reasons I gave above. The variation of goals scored is really narrow and I would claim that maybe one out of four of the goals we see at the moment are 'valid' and could happen in real life. I don't prefer watching games where slow tempo attacks with two players against six lead to something. Leigh Griffiths might well again be the best striker in the game because one of the most common scoring chances is the "good" old through on goal which once again is happening far too regularly and from slow build ups. In just two games against Barcelona and Dortmund I've had about ten through on goal type of chances. And with realistic finishing quality we would have scored 15-20 goals in those two games but had to settle only for 6 goals. 

Here's some variation. It's not like 33% from through balls, 33% from crosses and rest from set pieces, slow build ups etc. It should be variating of type of players and style of play. For example teams like Crystal Palace or West Ham should differ quite a bit from Arsenal or Barcelona. Also the thing to note in these is that most of the goals are because of "good play" from the attacking side instead of defenders freezing and also good finishes from chances that wouldn't even count as HCs. There's a logic in every goal that Chelsea score here.

Also hope that in the future for example on 'extended highlights' there would be more "could have been a chance"s instead of actually games being full of scoring chances like they are now. No-one wants the games to lack highlights but they shouldn't be scoring chance galore either.

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, El Payaso said:

For me the match engine is quite much unwatchable because of the reasons I gave above. The variation of goals scored is really narrow and I would claim that maybe one out of four of the goals we see at the moment are 'valid' and could happen in real life. I don't prefer watching games where slow tempo attacks with two players against six lead to something. Leigh Griffiths might well again be the best striker in the game because one of the most common scoring chances is the "good" old through on goal which once again is happening far too regularly and from slow build ups. In just two games against Barcelona and Dortmund I've had about ten through on goal type of chances. And with realistic finishing quality we would have scored 15-20 goals in those two games but had to settle only for 6 goals.

You should upload those in the bug forums. I have never seen such matches outside of FM 2015 before the first patch, where there was space all over the pitch as some AI could have its entire AML/AMC/AMR strata not getting behind the ball, turning matches into counter attack / through ball / 6 man defenses easily overloaded fests. They had hockey scorelines every other week, same as human players who did similar (this isn't possible to do anymore). Class forwards convert no more than about 1 in 3 of their one one ones  though. I agree with quite a few of the defending stuff you've brought up (also seen on the last page). But there is the theory that the engine would nerf finishing down to comical levels, which isn't the case. If the CCCs were legit, you should expect to score no more than in between 1 in 3 to 1 in 5. Or any shot in space. The equivalent of that would be Opta data CCC / Big Chances. If you google, you will find EPL starters who missed 80% of their totals. Whilst I don't think that FM is accurate, not least because it is a limited computer sim, it must take any such into account or it would be a fantasy, such as Fifa, Sensi Soccer, Nintendo World Cup. Outside of tap-ins and penalties, the keeper is supposed to edge this.

Imo it isn't that there is a gigantic amount of shots in space, outside of exploiting the stuff from the last page, and that is a major defensive issue (simply google for DEMOLISHER tactics for 10-1 miracle results) -- unless a team jam packs that middle with players. What is rather easy creating all those other ones. This goes years back, with human controlled matches uploaded showing up to 40 corners a match (unwatchable). It's not limited to those illogical tactics, it's just highlighting it to make for terribly viewing experience (and little goals). Aside of the more obvious (ranged attempts, easy blocks) as argued, if teams dismantle an opponent 7-0, it isn't at all unusual for them to have 90%+ of their attempts not merely within the box, but also from open play. On FM that is very rare if at all possible. A high amount of shots not being from play would typically be the telltale sign of a defense not getting stretched, FM or otherwise, but clearing every other move. As there isn't a stat for that, you have to trawl through every shots post match manually, which  is quite a bit of busy work. Hopefully SI are able to collect those internally.

Just seen that FrazT logged something that may be connected, though it relates purely to amount of free kicks (which are converted at about 1 in 25 on average no more, and for all the highlights one could upload, Ronaldo et all did go fully seasons with minimal return). My first experience with that dates back to FM2012/3ish, where for fun I made ten players just sitting back and not advancing, and still it was impossible to go without a shot, as eventually you would win a free kick, a corner, a throw in, and get shots off those. Which just happens to be how those impressively defensive AI teams also collected their sneaky 1-0 wins (off a corner, the only shot all match) once in every SI logo shaped moons. In other words, shot stats on FM are always inflated by attempts that you aren't much expected to score from, no matter what you do.
 

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Svenc