ArsenalFan7

Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

601 posts in this topic

Lucky I decided to check my divisional stats yesterday.

Last season my team managed a ratio of 0.358 goals per shot on target which was the 4th highest in the division, Bayern Munich managed the best ratio of 0.374.

Most teams were between 0.3-0.33, 4 were lower than 0.3 & the last placed side in the division had a meagre 0.076 goals per shot on target.

Edit: Seeing some interesting statistics for the current season, it's too early to tell as I'll need to complete this season & the next plus a third with me no longer managing in the division to get a meaningful sample of statistics but I might have stumbled across a pattern that is not supposed to exist.

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It's never necessarily been about how good the AI is finishing in the league, it was always the incredible AI conversation rate against me in games.

I don't necessarily see myself conceding so much anymore but when I do it's usually the AI scoring about 1 in 2 of their shots on target but there's not anything I can do about that so I've just learnt to accept it now and ignore it.

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AI teams had a lower than average goals to shots on target ratio when playing against me, the end of season figure came in at 0.243 goals per shot on target.

My starting keeper is amazing & is brilliant at saving penalties which does help & having the German #1 as backup is an added bonus.

Two examples of his fine work.

[video=youtube;7rLSETbhbDU]

[video=youtube;oeHNPqw1b5o]

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It's never necessarily been about how good the AI is finishing in the league, it was always the incredible AI conversation rate against me in games.

I don't necessarily see myself conceding so much anymore but when I do it's usually the AI scoring about 1 in 2 of their shots on target but there's not anything I can do about that so I've just learnt to accept it now and ignore it.

Did you actually look at all the stats of the games you've played, or are you just guessing that they score every 1 out of 2 shots on target? I've looked through all the stats for the games I've played this year (43 games) and the AI's numbers are 34 goals, 114 shots on target, and 377 shots. That comes out to 3.35 shots on target per goal, and 11.09 shots per goal. The stats for my team are 62 goals, 160 shots on target and 466 shots, which is 2.58 shots on target per goal, and 7.52 shots per goal. I'm playing a pretty standard 4-5-1, balanced/standard, no change in team instructions and only minor changes to player instructions.

Many people have already mentioned this but I'll say it again since echoing is fun, but you have to make sure you're not just suffering from perception bias. I had a 3 game stretch in the league where i gave up 4 goals on 6 shots on targets, which is rather unfortunate, but then again I also had a 4 game stretch where I had 0 goals on 11 shot on targets. Average the two, and I gave up 4 on 17 which seem pretty good to me. Every team will have games where the other team pretty much makes every shot on target, but forgetting about the good times while remembering all the bad times is not the right thing to do

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This season in league games I have conceded so far (minus penalty goals and own goals):

22 Games:

2 SOT: 1 goal

3 SOT: 1 goal

3 SOT: 1 goal

4 SOT: 3 goals

3 SOT: 1 goal

So that's 15 SOT and 7 goals, so not quite 1 in 2 but almost there.

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What about the other 17 games?

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I thought we were only doing games in which I have conceded but I shall take a look at the rest.

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I thought we were only doing games in which I have conceded but I shall take a look at the rest.

You can only work out the AI's conversion ratio against by looking through all your games. You can then compare with your conversion ratio for in those games.

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1 SOT: 0 goals

3 SOT: 1 goal

3 SOT: 0 goals

0 SOT: 0 goals

0 SOT: 0 goals

0 SOT: 0 goals

1 SOT: 0 goals

1 SOT: 0 goals

2 SOT: 0 goals

1 SOT: 0 goals

4 SOT: 0 goals (Scored a penalty)

1 SOT: 0 goals

4 SOT: 3 goals

3 SOT: 1 goal

1 SOT: 1 goal (Own goal)

2 SOT: 0 goals

2 SOT: 0 goals

0 SOT: 0 goals

3 SOT: 1 goal

0 SOT: 0 goal

0 SOT: 0 goal

2 SOT: 1 goal

34 SOT: 7 goals (I don't know if you minus that SOT for the penalty?)

So 34/7 = a goal every 4.86 SOT

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And from your previous stats, you score a goal every 2.33 shots on target. You are twice as efficient as the AI. Might not be as good in your current season, of course. However, I doubt it has dropped so much as to be worse than 1 in 4.86.

You've provided a fantastic example of perception bias in this thread. Thanks for being open to be proven wrong and for taking the time to post all of your stats. It's been a very illuminating thread and one that should be a "must read" for anybody thinking the AI gets an unfair advantage.

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My goals scored (minus OG's and penalties):

14 SOT: 5 goals

6 SOT: 3 goals

3 SOT: 3 goals

5 SOT: 1 goal

6 SOT: 5 goals

10 SOT: 3 goals

4 SOT: 2 goals

10 SOT: 0 goals

11 SOT: 7 goals

13 SOT: 8 goals

5 SOT: 3 goals

10 SOT: 3 goals

10 SOT: 2 goals

6 SOT: 3 goals

5 SOT: 3 goals

11 SOT: 3 goals

10 SOT: 2 goals

10 SOT: 2 goals

11 SOT: 3 goals

7 SOT: 1 goal

8 SOT: 4 goals

4 SOT: 1 goal

179 SOT: 67 goals = a goal every 2.7 SOT

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Awkward for me :brock::o

Not in the slightest. You've spent the time and effort to help make this thread massively instructional. I'd go as far to say that it is the most useful thread I've seen in General Discussion this year. Perhaps ever.

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i have seen that odd liverpool formation before.. liverpool used it against me.

holy smoke... this formation is immence with my fast wingers and striker O.O lowest rating 6.9 - keeper

outfield 7.6.

fantastic, i'll show you the match stats

2012041500001.jpg

this doesnt close down free kicks at all in another match i tried it on.

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After all this tactic discussion I feel that I need to tinker with my tactics now.

How the hell do you put up a significant challenge against teams, when you're underdogs for every game of the season? And for the most part the players you have are quite poor compared to the rest of the league.

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I think this thread shows that there might a need for a guide on how to create quality chances in varying circumstances (favourite vs underdog etc).

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Aw man, I love these threads, as it was the exact sort of thing I'd whinge about when I was 11.

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Aw man, I love these threads, as it was the exact sort of thing I'd whinge about when I was 11.

Thanks for that excellent insight.

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Aw man, I love these threads, as it was the exact sort of thing I'd whinge about when I was 11.

I read through 460+ posts and then I get to this brilliant assertion.

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Second alias I've seen since the match.

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yes it does happen, but not as often as it does on FM.

But does it?

In this example you are Barcelona and Barcelona produce similar match stats in real life every match, the only difference is that Barcelona in real life possibly win more games and I would put that down to those FM managers not being as effective as Pep is in choosing the tactic/getting the players to make the most of it.

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Between the Wigan - Man U match a couple days ago and now the Chelsea - Barca match you would think FM would be praised as a very realistic football simulator.

yes it does happen, but not as often as it does on FM.

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Between the Wigan - Man U match a couple days ago and now the Chelsea - Barca match you would think FM would be praised as a very realistic football simulator.

Calm down it was only 2 matches lol

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Second alias I've seen since the match.

They could be a little less obvious.

Clearly made it after this thread was created and were waiting for a good example.

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Between the Wigan - Man U match a couple days ago and now the Chelsea - Barca match you would think FM would be praised as a very realistic football simulator.

But you're talking about one match from EPL and other from CL and diffrent teams while in FM you are playing one team and i bet that you will have at least 5-8 wigan -manu matches :) What's annoying for me is disproportion of lucky wins and draws, AI seems just have a lot more luck then human

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yes that is the point, you get it more times then twice, just against you alone. let alone the other matches.

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But you're talking about one match from EPL and other from CL and diffrent teams while in FM you are playing one team and i bet that you will have at least 5-8 wigan -manu matches :) What's annoying for me is disproportion of lucky wins and draws, AI seems just have a lot more luck then human

Have you read the evidence in this thread?

Simply put, the majority of people who complain about this issue either design or download tactics that ensure they generate lots of possession and shots. Guess what, if you achieve this in every match you play, every match you lose will seem statistically unfair. You can only lose matches when you dominate the stats.

Most of these tactics rely on one player scoring lots of goals. If he is having a bad day, there is no second scoring option and the team begins to risk conceding as frustration grows.

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Simply put, the majority of people who complain about this issue either design or download tactics that ensure they generate lots of possession and shots. Guess what, if you achieve this in every match you play, every match you lose will seem statistically unfair. You can only lose matches when you dominate the stats.

Most of these tactics rely on one player scoring lots of goals. If he is having a bad day, there is no second scoring option and the team begins to risk conceding as frustration grows.

Well im very happy with my tactic it generates very good results and quality chances and possesions is about 50/50 , i play 451/433 and three up front scored about 60 from 90 goals so i don't rely on one striker. I'm not complaining about finishing ratio i'm just saying that i don't have as much luck as AI have(90+ own goal, super long shot, gk mistake, late goal from corner or free kick, those things are reserved for AI)

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Well im very happy with my tactic it generates very good results and quality chances and possesions is about 50/50 , i play 451/433 and three up from scored about 60 from 90 goals so i don't rely on one striker. I'm not complaining about finishing ratio i'm just saying that i don't have as much luck as AI have(90+ own goal, super long shot, gk mistake, late goal from corner or free kick, those thing are reserved for AI)

If you keep conceding late goals, the problem probably lies with loss of concentration in the defence, which can relate to temperament or tiredness. Do you do anything to see out tight games (i.e. sub off tired defensive players, stop being aggressive, reduce through balls, deepen the d-line to keep more players behind the ball, sub in an extra midfielder)? Further, are the defenders very young, which makes them prone to costly mistakes, no matter how good they are?

I can guarantee the AI is not "luckier" than you. All you need to do is work out why you have the tendency to concede late goals and develop a strategy to prevent it.

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One thing which i don't do is reducting through balls, i always thought that when switching to counter or defensive it can even help in launching quick attack.

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One thing which i don't do is reducting through balls, i always thought that when switching to counter or defensive it can even help in launching quick attack.

It can, but it can also result in the loss of possession, which isn't what you are after when you are trying to hold onto a slender lead. The question you need to ask is when you should stop pushing for the game killer and start holding onto what you have.

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using the tactic, i am still conceding to the regular silly stuff, corners, those random O.G.s bu it does force them to shoot from range. taken liverpool apart at anfield using it this time they went to attack after i scored and put another 5 past them when they pushed more men for a goal, looked quite good.

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Did you mods see the Barcelona - Real madrid? did you see RM playing CA and Barcelona going offensive? did you notice that it was needed 1 of the best coaches in the world and 1 of the best teams with some of the best finishers in the world to be able to win in CA against barcelona? now go watch the whole season of barcelona and tell me how many small teams managed to do that against Barcelona. now go watch small teams doing it in FM. tell me how is FM12 realistic when any small team with 1-2 chances in CA always score.

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To counter that how many teams do you see irl playing the same way as Barcelona or indeed regularly putting up the same sort of attacking statistics as them?

In FM it is far too easy to equal & in many cases better real life, the imbalance in the ME is two-way.

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To counter that how many teams do you see irl playing the same way as Barcelona or indeed regularly putting up the same sort of attacking statistics as them?

In FM it is far too easy to equal & in many cases better real life, the imbalance in the ME is two-way.

The day it becomes impossible to overperform in FM will be the day I will find something else to do.

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To counter that how many teams do you see irl playing the same way as Barcelona or indeed regularly putting up the same sort of attacking statistics as them?

In FM it is far too easy to equal & in many cases better real life, the imbalance in the ME is two-way.

two way? huh no. if you play with small teams you won't be able to do it easily. if you play with big teams your players will go ****** mode and if AI has good morale you will conceed goals no matter how much defensive you go. plus AI teams usually use 1 striker only and will take advantage of the 2 defenders bug. can i exploit it too? sure bit i don't like winning by exploiting. does AI knows it is exploiting? NO, wwas anything done to prevent it? NO. bias or not the AI has advantage unless we also exploit it

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Did you mods see the Barcelona - Real madrid? did you see RM playing CA and Barcelona going offensive? did you notice that it was needed 1 of the best coaches in the world and 1 of the best teams with some of the best finishers in the world to be able to win in CA against barcelona? now go watch the whole season of barcelona and tell me how many small teams managed to do that against Barcelona. now go watch small teams doing it in FM. tell me how is FM12 realistic when any small team with 1-2 chances in CA always score.

Well if you look at the current La Liga table we can see from 34 matches Barcelona have W25, D6 & L3.

Given that only two of those matches were against Real its fair to say other teams have got results against them as well.

In fact the stats tell us that Barcelona drop points in 26% of league games or one out of four on average. The question is how does that stat compare for those users that feel they have a problem?

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two way? huh no. if you play with small teams you won't be able to do it easily. if you play with big teams your players will go ****** mode and if AI has good morale you will conceed goals no matter how much defensive you go. plus AI teams usually use 1 striker only and will take advantage of the 2 defenders bug. can i exploit it too? sure bit i don't like winning by exploiting. does AI knows it is exploiting? NO, wwas anything done to prevent it? NO. bias or not the AI has advantage unless we also exploit it

I guess only conceding 15 leagues goals in my last season didn't happen or indeed the last 4 seasons where my team conceded less than a goal a game.

Teams concede goals because they are not as good as their manager thinks they are & I thought this thread went some way to disproving the misconception of an uber-efficient AI.

As for this two defender bug I've never heard of it & I spend a lot of time posting in the bugs forum, maybe you should post your debut comment in the bugs forum & supply a few match pkm's.

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I guess only conceding 15 leagues goals in my last season didn't happen or indeed the last 4 seasons where my team conceded less than a goal a game.

Teams concede goals because they are not as good as their manager thinks they are & I thought this thread went some way to disproving the misconception of an uber-efficient AI.

As for this two defender bug I've never heard of it & I spend a lot of time posting in the bugs forum, maybe you should post your debut comment in the bugs forum & supply a few match pkm's.

The thread did disprove it, some people just choose to ignore it.

I repeatedly end up scoring the most goals and conceding the least. My shots to goals and shots on targets to goals were the best of any team in the top 5 leagues, even though i could say there were on paper 4-5 side who were better. Last season i conceded 16 goals on the league.

Also not heard of this bug, or seen it, but if its there it should be reported.

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I guess only conceding 15 leagues goals in my last season didn't happen or indeed the last 4 seasons where my team conceded less than a goal a game.

Teams concede goals because they are not as good as their manager thinks they are & I thought this thread went some way to disproving the misconception of an uber-efficient AI.

As for this two defender bug I've never heard of it & I spend a lot of time posting in the bugs forum, maybe you should post your debut comment in the bugs forum & supply a few match pkm's.

there is no need to post PKM, wwfan (MODERATOR) already admitted there is a bug and that post is in this thread, if you don't believe then just start reading on page 4.

i never said hat AI scored in all CA, what ppl are complaining about is matches where our strikers go ****** mode, we dominate the whole game as in prrevious macthes and then AI has 1 chance in a 1vs1 and they score. now go try having your strikers score all 1v1 in a match...ffs i'm tired of watching benzema, higuain, ronaldo wasting 3 or 4 1vs1 because they either think it's cool to shoot straight at keeper all send the ball to the clouds. do they go dumb mode on all games? no. do i score lots of goals? yes more then 100 goals each season and average of 3+ goals each game including barcelona and conceed around 10 goals. however without any explanation they will be morons on a specific games . none of the strikers will score and might have luck if score from corner or long shot and go defensive and still conceed goal because apparently 2 DCs and 2 DMs can't take care of 1 striker and so either end up drawing or loosing which guess what, screws morale for a couple of games. i even tried reload those games with different tactics, especially more defensive approach and guess what, i created less chances, still missed a lot and the quality of the play was the same and the AI miraculous goal still happened and if i was lucky i would be able to draw. was it batter then loosing? yes. does it make me happy? nop just feels like i was never supposed to win. can i win if i reload many times? yes, can i kep reloading and win again with the same tactic that jsut made me win? hardly

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The thread title gets me every time :D My first thought is: The AI is better at finishing off chances? Really?

Not my experience at all.

These threads are silly without at least rudimentary analysis and testing. The thread title should be: 'IS the AI better at finishing off chances?'.

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@deathspawn

Go through the stats for all your matches (not just where the AI scored) & overall team stats for all clubs in your division, I am confident that you will find the figures will not back up your opinion of this efficient AI goal scoring machine when presented with a 1v1 chance.

Also watch a selection of full matches as the highlights system can give you a false sense of how efficient teams are in front of goal, unless your tactic is mess of conflicting instructions & roles the ME will not consistently produce the events that you claim.

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two way? huh no. if you play with small teams you won't be able to do it easily. if you play with big teams your players will go ****** mode and if AI has good morale you will conceed goals no matter how much defensive you go. plus AI teams usually use 1 striker only and will take advantage of the 2 defenders bug. can i exploit it too? sure bit i don't like winning by exploiting. does AI knows it is exploiting? NO, wwas anything done to prevent it? NO. bias or not the AI has advantage unless we also exploit it

But what you're talking about isn't an AI-specific advantage. You're describing the complacency/pressure system and that affects both the AI and player. I agree that the effects of complacency are too predictable and over-the-top, it is silly how playing Barnsley in the Carling Cup is often a greater challenge than playing Barcelona in the Champions League... but this isn't an issue of the AI giving itself special advantages. The effect that makes Barnsley so challenging is often what makes Barcelona and Real occasionally seem so easy... due to their extremely high reputation and constant involvement in high-pressure situations, their players are prone to going into ****** mode too!

Ideally, I would like to see less results dictated by the extremes of pressure and complacency, but this is an entirely separate issue.

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i never said hat AI scored in all CA, what ppl are complaining about is matches where our strikers go ****** mode, we dominate the whole game as in prrevious macthes and then AI has 1 chance in a 1vs1 and they score. now go try having your strikers score all 1v1 in a match...ffs i'm tired of watching benzema, higuain, ronaldo wasting 3 or 4 1vs1 because they either think it's cool to shoot straight at keeper all send the ball to the clouds. do they go dumb mode on all games? no. do i score lots of goals? yes more then 100 goals each season and average of 3+ goals each game including barcelona and conceed around 10 goals. however without any explanation they will be morons on a specific games . none of the strikers will score and might have luck if score from corner or long shot and go defensive and still conceed goal because apparently 2 DCs and 2 DMs can't take care of 1 striker and so either end up drawing or loosing which guess what, screws morale for a couple of games. i even tried reload those games with different tactics, especially more defensive approach and guess what, i created less chances, still missed a lot and the quality of the play was the same and the AI miraculous goal still happened and if i was lucky i would be able to draw. was it batter then loosing? yes. does it make me happy? nop just feels like i was never supposed to win. can i win if i reload many times? yes, can i kep reloading and win again with the same tactic that jsut made me win? hardly

You have achieved end-of-season statistics that outstrip anything ever achieved in reality, scoring more per game and conceding less per game than Barca and Real have managed even this season and you are complaining that the AI scoring is unrealistic!!!! I'd suggest you get your head out of the clouds and start taking the odd loss on the chin.

If you have designed a tactic and developed a team that guarantees you will dominate every match statistically, the ONLY WAY YOU WILL EVER LOSE is when your forwards have an off day and the AI catches you on the counter. That's life. Get over it.

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You have achieved end-of-season statistics that outstrip anything ever achieved in reality, scoring more per game and conceding less per game than Barca and Real have managed even this season and you are complaining that the AI scoring is unrealistic!!!!

oh really? atm RM has 109 goals and 30 conceeded. as far as i can tell the difference is i conceeded less and the spanish league aint over so they can score more and conceed more. and why you keep talking about season statistics when i'm talking about specific matches? just because average goal ratio is fine doesn't mean the whole matches were fine. if i scored 20 goals in a match and still have 100 overall does that mean the match was fine? so if i scored 20 of those as own goals how is that my tactic fault?

if you have designed a tactic and developed a team that guarantees you will dominate every match statistically, the ONLY WAY YOU WILL EVER LOSE is when your forwards have an off day and the AI catches you on the counter. That's life. Get over it.

also you keep talking about numbers and not how the goals happen? you admitted that there was the 2DCs bug, so if i exploit it my tactic will start produce unreal stats but ME has to keep it real so FM will just screw me over?

i can understand having 1-2 strikers on dumb mode but not 4 or 5. is it realistic to have 4-5 world class strikers? no. is it my fault? no. should i be punished for it? no.

do i want game to be realistic yes? do i want to loose ONLY due to RANDOM stuff that makes sure it stays realistic? sorry but no. is my tactic invincible? no. does it exploit ME? the hell i know, i dunno ME code and weaknesses unless i read all forum threads. also keep in mind ppl have different views on football. i for example thought the DCs problem was tactil, tried many stuff, same results so unless i came here i would never know it is a bug. how do you think i felt that whole time?

if i remember correctly there is also a flaw, told us by moderators, where AM on wings won't go back to help MCs even if they were told to, that is a ME flaw, how do you expect ppl that don't come here know it was ME problem and not bug? that pretty much renders some winger formation useless.

i'm tired of this random game. don't bother answering it unless someone knows how to delete an account, would appreciate if someone told me how to

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oh really? atm RM has 109 goals and 30 conceeded. as far as i can tell the difference is i conceeded less and the spanish league aint over so they can score more and conceed more.

Let's be specific. Are you scoring 3+ a game or averaging 3 a game? Yes, Real can and probably will average just over three goals per game, but they've conceded almost a goal a game, not 1 in 4. You seem to want to score 3+ a game and concede none. That just isn't going to happen, no matter how good your tactic and players.

and why you keep talking about season statistics when i'm talking about specific matches? just because average goal ratio is fine doesn't mean the whole matches were fine. if i scored 20 goals in a match and still have 100 overall does that mean the match was fine? so if i scored 20 of those as own goals how is that my tactic fault?

Because ***** happens in football. The best team doesn't always win and goals conceded can be totally against the run of play and extremely comical. The ME might have some minor bugs that cost you a goal or two, but stupidity, mistakes and randomness afflict every football match, even those played by world class footballers.

also you keep talking about numbers and not how the goals happen? you admitted that there was the 2DCs bug, so if i exploit it my tactic will start produce unreal stats but ME has to keep it real so FM will just screw me over?

That's not what happens. You lose because you lose. The ME does not decide you will lose. It just processes data. It is perfectly possible to stop these losses from happening if you know how to change things around when the team is struggling to score. Do you sit and watch the match with your head in your hands, or do you implement Plan B or Plan C?

i can understand having 1-2 strikers on dumb mode but not 4 or 5. is it realistic to have 4-5 world class strikers? no. is it my fault? no. should i be punished for it? no.

I agree. It is completely unrealistic for any team to have 5 world class strikers in its squad.

do i want game to be realistic yes? do i want to loose ONLY due to RANDOM stuff that makes sure it stays realistic? sorry but no. is my tactic invincible? no. does it exploit ME? the hell i know, i dunno ME code and weaknesses unless i read all forum threads. also keep in mind ppl have different views on football. i for example thought the DCs problem was tactil, tried many stuff, same results so unless i came here i would never know it is a bug. how do you think i felt that whole time?

Random stuff happens in football all the time. You are never going to eliminate all randomness from FM, no matter what tactic you try, because if you do, then the match simulation will be worth absolutely nothing. You might concede some goals from bugs, but all of them? I doubt it. I'm also 100% sure that you score more through bugs than you concede.

if i remember correctly there is also a flaw, told us by moderators, where AM on wings won't go back to help MCs even if they were told to, that is a ME flaw, how do you expect ppl that don't come here know it was ME problem and not bug? that pretty much renders some winger formation useless.

i'm tired of this random game. don't bother answering it unless someone knows how to delete an account, would appreciate if someone told me how to

Computer games always have bugs. I suggest you stop playing everything if bugs annoy you so much. Not good for the blood pressure. In fact, it is probably best you don't even turn on a computer.

If you wish, I will permanently ban your account.

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