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Everything posted by wwfan

  1. That's just not true. I play with a conservative approach, whilst pushing the line up and closing down to maximum and have conceded 3 in 15.
  2. I'd love to but, due to current life circumstances, I haven't had enough time to watch them to be confident in capturing their system in FM terms.
  3. Remember that FM doesn't always perfectly reflect the way in which stats are measured in the real world, for technical reasons and research differences. Possession in FM is generally closer than it is in the real world, which might be caused by a technical element of the ME or that SI measure possession slightly differently than OPTA.
  4. It's the thread that never dies! I'd agree that you could use the FM14 roles as suggested. The remainder of the OP is still very relevant.
  5. I think it's worth pointing out that there are two extremes to the "counter" strategy. Hopefully, this will help people get to grips a little more with how TIs create a playing style. In the popular press at the moment, there is a debate about the relative strengths and weaknesses of tika-taka versus the direct, counter-attacking of the Madrids and pre-Pep Bayern. In FM terms, I would regard both styles as being Counter strategies, but with a very different set of TIs. I'd actually regard the lower end strategies as being the "go-to" strategies for those trying to recreate the modern styles of play adopted by elite teams, especially those that play with many players the deeper strata. Cleon's thread on defensive systems and Ackter's on developing a modern catenaccio are fascinating takes on this idea. Barca play possession football with a high-pressing system, as detailed in my OP. In FM14, that would mean Shorter Passing, Retain Possession, Play Out of Defence, Much Higher Defensive Line and Hassle Opposition, but with a Counter Strategy for the reasons I gave in the OP. The Madrids play far more direct football with a low-blocking system. That would mean Direct Passing, Higher Tempo and a Lower Defensive Line, but still with a Counter Strategy. Once you have this sorted out, they key is getting individual players to perform as you'd wish via Formation, Roles, Duties and PIs. These will heavily influence team shape and what the player does on the ball.
  6. I think you misread it. I say they defend high and press heavily, but drop deep when they win the ball. As Jonathan Wilson says, they use deep space better than any team in history.
  7. I think the half back role is an option. Busquets didn't always do it. As tomtuck1 says, it doesn't seem to be working perfectly at the moment.
  8. Think I should re-title this "the thread that never dies"!
  9. Neither of those training settings will help long-term. Team cohesion is useful when you've bought lots of new players. Tactics when you are implementing a new tactical system. I tended to play on the biggest pitch possible. I think player quality might end up being the problem for Liverpool.
  10. Up to you. Most of the shouts I employ from the off, but the Hassle Opponent one I turn on and off during the match in relation to scoreline / how well I was playing (or I did when I was using this system).
  11. I haven't tried this in FM13 because I'm I've been playing in the BSP. Not an ideal system for less than technical players. To try and make it more solid away, it might be worth using the Defend strategy against the bigger teams (assuming they are the ones you are losing to). Changes in the TC have made Defend a little more like Counter, so it wouldn't be a huge change. Certainly worth experimenting with.
  12. As I point out in the thread: Asking me for advice on who to buy is a waste of your writing time.
  13. Not from my observations. Much of their passing is done in very tight spaces in the centre of the pitch, with only overlapping FBs providing width. Further, their game is slow-slow-fast rather than high tempo when in possession. They are certainly high tempo in defence, but many of their passing moves initiate with the ball being recycled to the back line and built from slow pass probing between the DCs and DMCs/MCs. It is only when space opens that they hit the accelerator.
  14. Play out of defence, yes. Play through defence, no, as it will reduce Messi's runs.
  15. The TC assigns primary playmakers in this order (TQ, DLP, AP). If you have a TQ, then you need to override this for the DLP. My cover will always be the DC in parallel to the DLP, as his tendency to drop a little deeper gives the DLP more space to work in. Full Back Attack or Wing Back Support would both work in terms of making him slightly less aggressive. Pass completion is usually circa 86-90%. The DLP will usually have the highest completion ratio, but will not make 100 plus passes. I was trying to interpret using the TC as much as possible. Doesn't mean that other, manually tweaked options can't get closer to the system.
  16. I've discussed cover DMCs and shifting defences with Paul on a number of occasions. They are theoretically possible to implement in the ME, but a very complex task. I certainly expect longer term revisions of the ME/TC to embrace such tactical innovations. As for when that might happen ... ??? As with everything in the virtual world, it takes time to bring it up to speed with real world thought. Until it has caught up, we can build tactics that are theoretically sound interpretations of real world tactics, but not ones that produce exactly the same type of movement real life teams do. Of course, buy the time the ME/TC enables these types of moves, new tactical innovations will have occurred and FM will have to catch up with them. It's a never ending task. I don't have FM installed on this machine. When I have the time, I'll try to upload a few pkms somewhere.
  17. As I said, it is an interpretation of the tactic, not a perfect simulation. The player in the Xavi role might not get forward enough, and the DR might not play exactly like Alves. However, a lot of that type of movement will be down to the player himself, not the tactical instructions. The ME lacks the fluidity of real life decision making. For what it is worth, by AML and AMR perform very differently even in the same roles. My AML is very much a team player and plays more like Pedro. However, the AMR is a goal sniffer and plays more like David Villa. Partly that is down to their PPMs, and partly down to their workrate/vision/teamwork. The subtlety that these type of things add to overall play shouldn't be ignored. Yes, although I'm Arsenal in 2030, not contemporary Barca. My TQs are a little forced into the role and don't perfectly fit. However, I have a 19 year old German who's going to be an awesome TQ in a few years. Passing stats in the ME are always 20-30% low across all teams, so you'll never match Barca. This is mainly to do with the ball being out of play too long (especially when there is an inujury), which reduces the amount of time played below real life by a good 5-10 minutes. It is also down to the keeper and defenders having too great a tendency to boot the ball long or out of play when under minimal pressure. In real life many defensive headers will result int he opposing team regaining possession and putting together another passing move. In FM, they always go out for a corner or launch a run with ball counter attack. However, the tactic does dominate possession. The most possession I've had at the end of a half is 81% and at the end of a match 73% (not the same game weirdly). It's unusual for me to get less than 60% unless I am playing a top side. I'm certainly averaging over 60% against mid-lower table sides in my current season. I don't think my team is player for player as high quality as Barca's, so any higher than that is going to be a push. The player in the Xavi role certainly doesn't get enough ball though, which is mainly down to the ME not allowing him to drop deep enough to get easy ball from the defence. Thanks. I'll do a traditional British style system once FM12 comes out. You need the 'Cross Early' shout for it to work properly.
  18. I wouldn't go quite so extreme, but DL (WB/Support) -- DMC (Support) -- DLP (Cover) -- (DMC (Defend) -- DLR (WB/Attack) might work well. FBs with the WB role are so dynamic thee is no need to push them up a strata. If you add this to the mix, you might line up like so: GK: Valdes (SK/Support/Distribute to DR) DR: Alves (WB/Attack) DC: Maschereno (BPD/Cover) DL: Abidal (WB/Support) DMCR: Busquets (DM/Defend) DMCL: Xavi (DLP/Support/Primary PM) MCR: Iniesta (AP/Support) MCL: Fabregas (AP/Attack) AMR: Sanchez (IF/Attack) AMC: Messi (TQ) AML: Villa (IF/Attack) That would be a very interesting formation. Basically, a 3-7-0.
  19. Agree about the pressing not being an absolute, which is why it is a shout. It might also be possible to do well with a less active DL, as the most advanced MC plays on that side. Would be worth experimenting with.
  20. I've been promising to write this for a while now, but never had the time to sit down and do it. Wet weather has curtailed my evening plans, so I'll take the chance to do it now. I got involved in a debate/rant in the GD forum about the 'unrealism' of tactics and the ME. One of the arguments from the side attacking the ME was that if it were realistic, then it would be possible to recreate the Barcelona style of tactic in FM. It was posited that because nobody had successfully done so, then the ME was patently flawed. I disagreed with the premise, arguing that such a tactic should be extremely difficult to get right, as so few teams had ever approached that level in the real world. The user manager would need to have in depth knowledge of tactical theory, know how to translate that into the game, and also have a team full of the right players to get it working. However, I decided to experiment in designing such a tactic. This is the outcome. Limitations Before continuing, there is one serious limitation in the ME that prevents the tactic being exactly like the Barcelona tactic, in that defensive midfielders do not have the flexibility to drop between the DCs when the team is in possession. There is also one override required in the TC, namely the choice of Primary Playmaker. However, everything else in the tactic is done through the TC and shouts, with no manual tweaking. Flawed Interpretations The biggest problem I had with those trying to design a Barcelona-esque tactic was their insistence that Barcelona played an attacking style of football. Every time I watched them, they played possession football deep on the park, either moving the ball slowly upfield and probing space or attacking at pace if gaps opened up. Both types of play produced goals, the former through the technical brilliance of their midfield, the latter through the pace and directness of their inverted wingers and attacking full backs. Barcelona: My Interpretation My interpretation of the Barcelona tactic is that it has a triple-pivot playmaker system, with Xavi, Iniesta and Messi all dictating play from central positions. Xavi is generally the deepest and Messi the highest, although they often are not that far apart. This creative central trio is supported by three defensive players in the DC and DM positions, who provide a stable base of excellent defensive positioning and simple possession passes. Out wide, the inverted wingers angle into the space Messi creates by dropping deep and the full backs surge into the wide spaces behind them. The tactic operates on the basic principle of controlling space, being high and tight in defence, and low and wide in attack. This is possible because the team are a hard working unit in both defence and attack and technically excellent in keeping the ball. As they keep the ball so well, they can afford to press aggressively in defence without getting tired, even in hot conditions. Formation, Strategy and Philosophy 4-1-2-2-1 (4-3-3): Flat back four, one DM, two MCs, AML, AMR and FCC. Counter: My own take on the Barcelona style is that is closest to the Counter Strategy in Football Manager than any other. When Barcelona get the ball, the first thing that happens is the defence drop deeper, opening up passing space between the defence and the playmaking midfield. The Counter Strategy enables this deep move. As mentioned above, they attack in two ways, the slow probe or the fast counter. Again, the Counter strategy allows this. Balanced: Because their Barcelona get much of their width from the rampaging full backs while keeping the ball deep, the philosophical system that has the biggest differential between the full backs and the defence is the go to. This encourages both the possession play centrally, reducing the risky pass mentality, while allowing FBs on Attack duties to bomb forward at will. Balanced has the biggest mentality gap in these areas, hence it is my choice. Adjustments Shorter Passing: Barca play a short passing game. Anything that encourages this is required. Greater Creative Freedom: You need to give players their head to create chances out of tight spaces, so encouraging creativity is a must. Zonal Marking: Actually, not really needed as the shouts will determine this. However, I believe they mark zonally in reality, so.... Heavier Pressing: Barca press when they defend. Again, not really needed as you will use the shouts to do this. However, set it at maximum anyway. Normal Tackling: Again, I'll use the shouts to set this. More Roaming: Barca players move from their standard positions all the time. Greater roaming encourages this. Player Roles/Duties Sweeper Keeper/Support: Encourages the keeper to play short passes and make quick throws. DCs/Cover/Stopper split: Barca have a high d-line when defending and a low one when in possession. The split DCs makes sense as it supports both. NB: I actually use a Ball Playing Defender in my tactic because I have players who can do the job. However, it is not a requirement. Wing Backs/Attack: A key position on both flanks as it gives the team width when going forward. I will happily spend my entire transfer budget on a world class wing back they are so important to the system. Defensive Midfielder/Defend: Although the deepest lying midfielder in the Barcelona tactic is the least technically accomplished, he is by no means a donkey and is a good ball player in his own right. The Anchor Man role is thus too limiting. The Defensive Midfielder role gives him a little more scope to feed players ahead of him. MCR/Deep-Lying Playmaker/Support: Xavi's role and vital to ball maintenance. Will rarely get into goalscoring positions, but the deepness of his positioning due to the strategy ensures the payer is invariably unmarked and can dictate possession all match. Override the tactical defaults by ensuring he is the primary playmaker. MCL/Advanced Playmaker/Attack: Iniesta's role and the key link between attack and midfield. As with Iniesta, might not score many goals, but provides multiple assists. AML/R/Inside Forwards/Attack: This role encourages both wide men to move into open central space off the flanks when the FC drops deeper. It also opens space for the FBs to advance into on the flanks. Trequartista: Messi's role, the playmaking centre forward who drops deep into midfield and runs at the defence. Shouts Retain Possession: Encourages keep ball. Pass into Space: The technical passing shout that encourages all the players to play through balls to teammates breaking from deep. Work Ball into Box: Encourage the edge of box passing moves and close range shots that typify Barcelona goals Push Higher Up: Increases the d-line height when defending Hassle Opponent: Ensures heavy pressing from all players Stay on Feet: Ensures players stay on their feet in the tackle so they are able to immediately play the ball after winning it Performance I've only played one full season with this tactic, but results have been impressive. Won 35 out of 38, scoring 89 and conceding 8 in the league. Also won the League Cup and Champions League. Lost 3 matches all season, all of them 1-0. NB: I'm not uploading the tactic. It can be created in minutes using the TC.
  21. He is inexperienced with the league you are in so doesn't know the players. He might also have poor tactical knowledge.
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