Brexit and FM17

[treble_yell_:-)]

The game should ask you how you voted at the start and determine your outcome based on that

Spoiler

#Notserious

Spoiler

#Maybeserious

Spoiler

 

[Tony85]

I think it's a terrible addition to the game. Yes, Brexit is coming but no-one knows how it will change British football. Until anyone knows what impact it will have on the game regarding rules on work-permits it feels stupid to add in randomly generated rules to one of the most important leagues in the game. Might as well add in extra randomness that Catalonia leaves Spain, Russia annexes Ukraine or IS take over the whole of the middle-east. Yes I know they extreme examples but that's how stupid it feels to me when no-one knows the consequences right now.

Last seasons game was the first game I've missed since about CM2. I was looking to return to playing FM this season but I won't be buying it now if there is no option to turn it off. And I'd be pretty pissed off if I'd pre-ordered the game before hand and you'd added a potentially game-breaking announcement just as a beta is to be released.

All I can see this as is a publicity stunt or some form of political statement. Either way it doesn't belong in the game when it can't be switched off.

[formerlyiab]

So yes I am going to start a game and make 2 saves. 

Go on  holiday on one save until nature of brexit revealed and then if it's the one I want go back to day 1

Ridiculous but I'm not sinking weeks into a game to get some bizarre brexit scenario. 

[Warhawk]

As soon as I get a chance to play the beta I'm gonna test out the holiday option to see if it really does get decided on creation.

[pheelf]

As Scottish Independence has been mentioned what does that look like in game?

Will Scotland keep the pound, adopt the Euro or create it's own currency?

Will it join the EU or go it alone? If it does join the EU how quickly will that happen?

The inclusion of this feature really has opened Pandora's Box and that's the problem. Once you have resolved to go down a path of saying a certain event is going to happen at some time in the future it opens the possibility of events X, Y & Z all with untold consequences.

Had it been a more generic addition which could be applied to all countries in the game then I think it would be less problematic. As it stands it's going to lead to a whole bunch of uncontrollable 'what if' scenarios which isn't ideal when talking about a simulation.

[JoshuaMPearce]

1 minute ago, ism-scfc said:

Not as a direct result of brexit. Which is the only such model being simulated

Gibraltar joining Spain, perhaps? A very small % chance, but still a possibility. Equally, Northern Ireland merging with Eire. Have these been factored in?

Also, as a direct result of Brexit (let's say it happens and the UK does leave), Spain will become net contributors to the European Union. Brexit could be the first act of Spain leaving the European Union which probably hasn't been included in the game.

 

[chadnw]

It is silly not give the player a choice on this. At the end of the day this is a game that is supposed to be fun. Let us choose the outcome and leave a random option.

[JoshuaMPearce]

Just now, pheelf said:

As Scottish Independence has been mentioned what does that look like in game?

Will Scotland keep the pound, adopt the Euro or create it's own currency?

Will it join the EU or go it alone? If it does join the EU how quickly will that happen?

The inclusion of this feature really has opened Pandora's Box and that's the problem. Once you have resolved to go down a path of saying a certain event is going to happen at some time in the future it opens the possibility of events X, Y & Z all with untold consequences.

Had it been a more generic addition which could be applied to all countries in the game then I think it would be less problematic. As it stands it's going to lead to a whole bunch of uncontrollable 'what if' scenarios which isn't ideal when talking about a simulation.

In real life, if Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU, they will have to adopt the Euro as a currency. This is one thing we can be sure of.

Unsure as to whether this has been included in the game.

[andu1]

Am I on the correct forum? sounds like economics manager not football manager.

[gibbo11]

Just now, chadnw said:

It is silly not give the player a choice on this. At the end of the day this is a game that is supposed to be fun. Let us choose the outcome and leave a random option.

And for the majority, it is and will be fun

[daylight]

This really is the biggest thing to hit the game since the burger vans!

[ism-scfc]

6 minutes ago, formerlyiab said:

So yes I am going to start a game and make 2 saves. 

Go on  holiday on one save until nature of brexit revealed and then if it's the one I want go back to day 1

Ridiculous but I'm not sinking weeks into a game to get some bizarre brexit scenario. 

That would completely spoil the immersion for me. But each to their own I suppose...

[Warhawk]

1 minute ago, gibbo11 said:

And for the majority, it is and will be fun

Those people would not lose anything if there was a choice including a random option.

[Per Annum]

2 minutes ago, JoshuaMPearce said:

In real life, if Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU, they will have to adopt the Euro as a currency. This is one thing we can be sure of.

Unsure as to whether this has been included in the game.

The game has never included different currencies, other than the one from a choice of currencies you have active. No?

[JoshuaMPearce]

1 minute ago, gibbo11 said:

And for the majority, it is and will be fun

If SI get it right, which seems unlikely.

I've seen nonsense screenshots from FM 17 about 'hard' and 'soft' Brexit (fictional terms), and they don't seem to understand the difference between the United Kingdom and Great Britain.

[Cougar2010]

4 minutes ago, formerlyiab said:

So yes I am going to start a game and make 2 saves. 

Go on  holiday on one save until nature of brexit revealed and then if it's the one I want go back to day 1

Ridiculous but I'm not sinking weeks into a game to get some bizarre brexit scenario. 

I'm really puzzled how some think any of the options "ruin" their save.

Whatever situation happens in a save its the same for every team in the league and you are all in the same boat.

You deal with it the same way you deal with anything else that happens.  Do you feel the same when your best player breaks his leg? or when you miss out on promotion because you lost the last game of the season? How about when players force a move away from your club or when you can't sign a player you want?

[JoshuaMPearce]

Just now, Per Annum said:

The game has never included different currencies, other than the one from a choice of currencies you have active. No?

The point is that the value of the players should change as a result.

[phnompenhandy]

18 minutes ago, James Debate said:

Easy answer: start a game, holiday for 10 seasons, check what happened with Brexit.

Not really because what happens in your holiday experiment will in all likelihood be completely different to what happens in the save you subsequently invest in.

[formerlyiab]

4 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

I'm really puzzled how some think any of the options "ruin" their save.

Whatever situation happens in a save its the same for every team in the league and you are all in the same boat.

You deal with it the same way you deal with anything else that happens.  Do you feel the same when your best player breaks his leg? or when you miss out on promotion because you lost the last game of the season? How about when players force a move away from your club or when you can't sign a player you want?

 

I don't want game changing rules determined by RNG

[Warhawk]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

I'm really puzzled how some think any of the options "ruin" their save.

It would be a bit frustrating if you have several saves and got the same result in each.

[Per Annum]

Just now, JoshuaMPearce said:

 

I've seen nonsense screenshots from FM 17 about 'hard' and 'soft' Brexit (fictional terms), and they don't seem to understand the difference between the United Kingdom and Great Britain.

Keen to stay out of IRL politics, but you are taking the word of Tusk as Gospel. I wouldn't. Nearly everything being discussed for Brexit (and Scotland) is fictional atm, and the end result will very possibly be currently 'fictional' too.

Second point is massively embarassing for SI if youre correct though, and it seems you are.

[KUBI]

At least people should give the game a chance to "ruin" their saves. 

[Cougar2010]

Just now, JoshuaMPearce said:

The point is that the value of the players should change as a result.

The currency values are normally fixed at around their real life rates when the game is released, not sure when the exact cutoff is.

[JoshuaMPearce]

Just now, Per Annum said:

Keen to stay out of IRL politics, but you are taking the word of Tusk as Gospel. I wouldn't. Nearly everything being discussed for Brexit (and Scotland) is fictional atm, and the end result will very possibly be currently 'fictional' too.

Second point is massively embarassing for SI if youre correct though, and it seems you are.

It's not just Tusk though. So-called 'hard' Brexit is ending the free movement of people* and leaving the Single Market. So-called 'soft' Brexit is staying in the Single Market and keeping the free movement of people*.

The latter option, of course, is not Brexit; it's staying in the European Union.

*This of course relates to the game, with work permits being implemented if ended, and not implemented if kept.

[Lord Rowell]

8 minutes ago, JoshuaMPearce said:

In real life, if Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU, they will have to adopt the Euro as a currency. This is one thing we can be sure of.

Unsure as to whether this has been included in the game.

No they won't.

In the event of Scottish secession, they could have their own currency. Or retain £sterling if an agreement can be made with the remaining nations of the UK - admittedly that scenario is unlikely because England is far too immature to respect the wishes of Scotland and agree such a thing.

[gibbo11]

6 minutes ago, JoshuaMPearce said:

If SI get it right, which seems unlikely.

I've seen nonsense screenshots from FM 17 about 'hard' and 'soft' Brexit (fictional terms), and they don't seem to understand the difference between the United Kingdom and Great Britain.

Well, you don't have to wait long. The beta comes out tonight so how about following how it works in the game before making a snap decision that SI have ruined life!

[Walshieboy750]

I know things like Serbia joining the EU on FM are fixed to happen on a certain date, but is there a possibility that for very long term saves that the UK rejoins the EU several years into the future for one of the outcomes?

[Cougar2010]

2 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Not really because what happens in your holiday experiment will in all likelihood be completely different to what happens in the save you subsequently invest in.

No they are talking about setting up a save and saving it twice so they have two copies of the same save.

Then take one of the copies & fast forward 10 years, if they like the outcome they revert to the other copy & continue as normal.

That would work presuming the Brexit outcome is fixed at the beginning of a save which seems to be what some are implying.

[phnompenhandy]

I'm in the camp that says if this were an OPTION it would be brilliant, but to have it imposed on us without any way to turn it off is a level of control I resent.

 

FWIW it won't directly affect me - I've already prepared the groundwork to adapt a 23-level league where I start off at the bottom and will never rise above obscure amateur or semi-pro local level as a club. At the highest levels however, how this plays out will be somewhat bizarre as I'm creating a super-premier league of the top European clubs with the likes of Barce and Bayern mixing it in the Premier League with Liverpool and Spurs. It's been fun in FM16 - post-Brexit? Let's see ....

[enigmatic]

11 minutes ago, JoshuaMPearce said:

The point is that the value of the players should change as a result.

Not in a predictable way, probably not much and not any different to how currency fluctuations can affect the value of existing transfers which SI has (for good reason) never attempted to model.

Scottish currency changes are a lot less likely to happen, a pure one-off event and a lot less likely to have a predictable effect on footballer values than all these random recessions SI doesn't bother to build into their transfer pricing model

[JoshuaMPearce]

Just now, Lord Rowell said:

No they won't.

In the event of Scottish secession, they could have their own currency. Or retain £sterling if an agreement can be made with the remaining nations of the UK - admittedly that scenario is unlikely because England is far too immature to respect the wishes of Scotland and agree such a thing.

Incorrect. All members of the EU have to join the Euro, except Denmark and the UK.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/adoption/index_en.htm

[formerlyiab]

3 minutes ago, JoshuaMPearce said:

It's not just Tusk though. So-called 'hard' Brexit is ending the free movement of people* and leaving the Single Market. So-called 'soft' Brexit is staying in the Single Market and keeping the free movement of people*.

The latter option, of course, is not Brexit; it's staying in the European Union.

*This of course relates to the game, with work permits being implemented if ended, and not implemented if kept.

Work permits do not necessarily follow any of those options it would be down  to UK Parliament to legislate. 

[Lord Rowell]

Just now, JoshuaMPearce said:

Incorrect. All members of the EU have to join the Euro, except Denmark and the UK.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/adoption/index_en.htm

Only if necessary conditions are fulfilled and like the UK (and Denmark) they have the potential to negotiate an opt-out.

Btw I'm not saying they wouldn't join the Euro, simply that its not certain they'd be compelled do in reality. I think the EU nations would welcome an independent Scotland more than many realise. After all, a great way to stick it to the English leavers.

[JoshuaMPearce]

1 minute ago, gibbo11 said:

Well, you don't have to wait long. The beta comes out tonight so how about following how it works in the game before making a snap decision that SI have ruined life!

I don't think this is a good idea because:

1) It's another step away from 'fun' toward 'realism'.

2) If this political event is implemented, why not other ones? 

3) It doesn't appear to be implemented correctly, though I can reserve full judgement on that until I have played it!

[santy001]

I have to wonder how some people have managed to play the FM series this far with things out of their control and some perhaps unrealistic events happening in their game.

Do you get outraged when you get your conference team back to back promotions to the premier league? How do you cope with the AI getting to pick its own team? How do you cope with players deciding to leave your team on a free transfer at the end of their contract?

If you want to break it down to the whole "I'm in a huff because this isn't exactly as I imagine it going in the future" then FM has been the wrong game for a while. No one can accurately say what's going to happen with anything in life, but we have a degree of certainty right now in regards to what potential outcomes can include - but are not limited to. 

My only piece of advice is to put it out of your mind and enjoy the experience, no one at SI deliberately sits there thinking

"Right guys, how can we **** off the playerbase this year? Lets face it, we're all tired of making successful FM games each year so lets run the whole business into the ground as quickly as we possibly can."

Games tend to be far more enjoyable when you go into it with an open mind and see where it goes. Everyone involved in the process of bringing each and every FM title out is dedicated to helping make sure its an enjoyable experience, while being as accurate as they feel it can be and taking into account as many relevant factors as it can. 

[herne79]

Scottish independence is starting to take us off topic.

Keep the discussion about FM matters please.  If you want to discuss other issues take it to OFT.

@JoshuaMPearce @Per Annum @formerlyiab @ anyone else .

[Crispypaul]

5 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

No they won't.

In the event of Scottish secession, they could have their own currency. Or retain £sterling if an agreement can be made with the remaining nations of the UK - admittedly that scenario is unlikely because England is far too immature to respect the wishes of Scotland and agree such a thing.

Not really on topic but outside of transitional periods there's no way an independent Scotland could use a currency of another country outside the EU where the central bank is also situated.  It wouldn't meet EU financial rules for example.  Nothing to do with "England" being immature.  

[JoshuaMPearce]

4 minutes ago, formerlyiab said:

Work permits do not necessarily follow any of those options it would be down  to UK Parliament to legislate. 

True, but that is how it appears to have been implemented in the game.

'Hard Brexit' = No free movement; work permits required for EU players

'Soft Brexit' = Free movement; no work permits required for EU players

[Lord Rowell]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Scottish independence is starting to take us off topic.

Keep the discussion about FM matters please.  If you want to discuss other issues take it to OFT.

@JoshuaMPearce @Per Annum @formerlyiab @ anyone else .

Understood and fair call

[treble_yell_:-)]

NVM

[JoshuaMPearce]

2 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Only if necessary conditions are fulfilled and like the UK (and Denmark) they have the potential to negotiate an opt-out.

Btw I'm not saying they wouldn't join the Euro, simply that its not certain they'd be compelled do in reality. I think the EU nations would welcome an independent Scotland more than many realise. After all, a great way to stick it to the English leavers.

But those necessary conditions must be worked towards as part of EU membership.

Denmark and the UK negotiated an opt-out from monetary union 24 years ago as part of the Maastricht Treaty; there are no further opt-out options available to EU members or those who are joining.

[JoshuaMPearce]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Scottish independence is starting to take us off topic.

Keep the discussion about FM matters please.  If you want to discuss other issues take it to OFT.

@JoshuaMPearce @Per Annum @formerlyiab @ anyone else .

It's part of the game, though, isn't it?

[Sky]

5 minutes ago, JoshuaMPearce said:

2) If this political event is implemented, why not other ones? 

What other major political event or decision affects the footballing world like this one?  The WP thing was always an interesting issue that people have been wondering ever since the referendum.

[pheelf]

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Scottish independence is starting to take us off topic.

Keep the discussion about FM matters please.  If you want to discuss other issues take it to OFT.

@JoshuaMPearce @Per Annum @formerlyiab @ anyone else .

It's not taking us off topic as I simply asked the question of how given that it has been programmed into the game it would look in FM.

[reflection22]

If this REALLY has to be in the game (and I don't think it should be before we know the full implications on work permits and the like), I think to balance it out, there should be another random generator say another 5-10 years down the line where the UK may or may not decide to rejoin the EU! If we're going down that road why not have the potential for the situation to change too?

[Per Annum]

1 minute ago, reflection22 said:

If this REALLY has to be in the game (and I don't think it should be before we know the full implications on work permits and the like), I think to balance it out, there should be another random generator say another 5-10 years down the line where the UK may or may not decide to rejoin the EU! If we're going down that road why not have the potential for the situation to change too?

From what I can see that is already in the game for FM17!

[JoshuaMPearce]

1 minute ago, Sky said:

What other major political event or decision affects the footballing world like this one?  The WP thing was always an interesting issue that people have been wondering ever since the referendum.

There are potential future events of equal magnitude.

As I have said, it is likely that the Netherlands and Hungary will be holding referendums on EU membership by the end of the decade, and they could vote the same way as the UK.

So if the game has Brexit in it, why not Nexit?

[Lord Rowell]

1 minute ago, JoshuaMPearce said:

It's part of the game, though, isn't it?

It is in a way but @herne79 is right to ask for the discussion to be on the game, otherwise we risk horrible tangents.

To bring it back to the game, lets say in save X that Scotland does secede from the UK. There might be a couple of scenarios. 1. They Join EU and Euro as you suggest, so full benefits of membership for that league without currency issues. 2. They join but with another currency i.e. £sterling or own currency, with possible weak currency effects if SI choose to go in that direction.

Tbh the more I think about it, 2. gets complicated so option 1. may be what they go for. I could be wrong though we'll have to wait and see.

[reflection22]

Just now, Per Annum said:

From what I can see that is already in the game for FM17!

Really?? Where did you hear/see that? If so that improves my opinion on this 'feature' slightly.

[Morrissey]

As far as Scottish Independence goes, the truth is the currency situation would be negotiated, so no-one knows.

With relation to the game, the only real points of impact come down to the work permit/freedom of movement side of things...unless I'm drastically missing something? Can't imagine a "new" currency would influence things too much?