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Brexit and FM17


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Just now, Maaka said:

This. It's equally important to have the "other side" simulated as well. I suppose they'll be "mirrored" by the outcome in each save game, so that UK players would need wp's where other non-EU players have to and so on.

I'd imagine it is basically the reverse of the EU accession countries (Montenegro, Serbia etc) in that the British leagues affected are removed from the European Union list from a particular date.

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Just now, callamity said:

I don't think they should. I don't know how it works so asked

Just look at all the other countries that are non-EU (Norway, Iceland, Israel, Russia, ex-USSR and -Yugoslavia etc.). They're all in the European competitions despite not being in the EU.

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3 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

I'd imagine it is basically the reverse of the EU accession countries (Montenegro, Serbia etc) in that the British leagues affected are removed from the European Union list from a particular date.

Yeah, suppose so.

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1 minute ago, Maaka said:

Just look at all the other countries that are non-EU (Norway, Iceland, Israel, Russia, ex-USSR and -Yugoslavia etc.). They're all in the European competitions despite not being in the EU.

Exactly, from a game point of view there shouldn't be much change.  I'm hoping the extent of what they are trying to do is just a simple equation of a different style of Brexit equalling whether players require work permits or not.  If they start trying to be clever regarding currency valuation then I despair because it's a lot more complex than just Brexit.

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I imagine if you want to play FM with no brexit FM touch might be the way to go. 

With no squad registration rules and the option to have work permits switched off you could have your non brexit world there. 

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2 minutes ago, Pingdinho said:

If you are a manager with a non-UK EU nationality, would you need a work permit to manage an English club in the event of a hard Brexit?

Interesting question, someone did raise work permits for staff in the feature forum recently.

Not sure how it would add to the game but maybe could be based on the reputation of the staff, those over a certain rep were elligible for a WP.

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1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

Those type of users also tend to be the ones that only play a save for 2/3 seasons.  In that respect most of them won't even see the effects of Brexit during a save.

 

Whilst we don't know how it works technically yet I suspect Leftism might be closer to the mark above and it might be something similar to removing the German restrictions but thats only a guess.

On the first point I'm thinking more of the type of people who want to do Youth Only management from the lower tiers to the higher tiers. Last thing most of those people are likely to want is for their long term plan to become far too easy or near impossible to be down to a single random event totally unrelated to their management of the club five years in (and possibly by the time they come to play IRL ludicrously unrealistic)

On the latter point I agree, but whilst configuring text files or playing around in the editor works fine for me, I think checkboxes at game start would be better for the average player, especially since this is a showcase feature rather than a necessary evil added to the game to comply with licensing agreements

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Alright, first time poster, felt I had to share my view. 

Political aspects aside, this is a terrible idea and feels a little like a publicity stunt.  I wouldn't mind so much if players could toggle it on or off.

First of all:- no-one has any idea how Brexit will be changed by Football.  Having Brexit acted out by a bunch of designers/programmers, seems really odd.  Surely we wait until we have more Brexit detail before putting a major feature like this in?

Second, similar to the above; one of the options is Scotland becoming independent and remaining in the EU.  If we are talking realism, this wouldn't happen.  Scotland would need to reapply and then get accepted.  We don't know if that will happen but that's the point, ITS NOT REALISTIC! 

If this was an option that can be turned OFF then fine, but until then, this will be the first CM/FM I will not buy. I am not letting something like this ruin my save game.

Yeah, yeah 'bye, shut the door on your way out etc..' but I just wanted to state my point, I hope you enjoy FM and I hope I can enjoy it with you soon (as soon as Brexit can be turned off until we have more information on how it will effect football).

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Regarding Scotland, it has happened before for part of a country to leave the EU whilst the rest remains in .  In 1985 Greenland left the EU despite being part of Denmark which is still in the EU today.  Yes I am aware that this was a small part of a country leaving whilst the bigger part stays in, but it still sets a precedence  for part of a country to stay in whilst another part of a country leaves.

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I think this is a great feature, and I'd love to see more dynamic world events like this, but I agree there should be an option at the start, to turn it off or ensure work permits remain as it is when Brexit happens in-game. I imagine it might be editable through EDT files or something.

Personally I'm certainly not going to turn it off (if that's an option), the more random, dynamic events the better.

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2 minutes ago, alandlondon said:

 

Second, similar to the above; one of the options is Scotland becoming independent and remaining in the EU.  If we are talking realism, this wouldn't happen.  Scotland would need to reapply and then get accepted.  We don't know if that will happen but that's the point, ITS NOT REALISTIC! 

 

 

 

kind of contradicting yourself there. It's no less likely than anything else happening in the world was 18 months or so ago. Things change. Don't let your political views cloud your posts, or above all, don't let your political views cloud your decision to play a bloody computer game. Christ

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A lot is being said here re. randomness.

I don't think its random outcomes at all. It is different probabilities, which is quite different.

I think SI have done this for two reasons.

1. To simulate reality - because we don't know the actual outcome of this, just possible outcomes. Presumably SI will have consulted political & economic advice and been provided with chance graphs, fan charts etc.

2. Having possible different outcomes emerge probably protects SI from litigation by the more zealous members of the respective factions.

What is also interesting is how this will affect the way you manage? If you're managing an English club for example, it is likely to make you more risk-averse in signing European players? Or do you take the risk anyway depending on your situation? It will fundamentally change how we approach the game.

Are the AI managers going to be good enough to manage risk in these areas? That's another question entirely.

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6 minutes ago, Per Annum said:
10 minutes ago, alandlondon said:

 

Second, similar to the above; one of the options is Scotland becoming independent and remaining in the EU.  If we are talking realism, this wouldn't happen.  Scotland would need to reapply and then get accepted.  We don't know if that will happen but that's the point, ITS NOT REALISTIC! 

 

 

 

kind of contradicting yourself there. It's no less likely than anything else happening in the world was 18 months or so ago. Things change. Don't let your political views cloud your posts, or above all, don't let your political views cloud your decision to play a bloody computer game. Christ

I'm not letting my political views cloud my decision to 'play a bloody computer game'.

We don't even know if Brexit is going to happen yet (MPs still have to approve the deal when it comes back), and SI have put in a feature which essential 'breaks' my game, it makes up the rules as it goes along.

I want realism, I don't want guessing from programmer/designers.  Sure, put Brexit in, but when it actually happens and clubs in the real world have to deal with it.

But hey, thanks to data updates last years FM will do until a toggle gets patched in (which I'm guessing it will).

Peace and love.

x

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3 minutes ago, Welshace said:

Random is certainly the wrong word.... it will; be based on certain factors which way it goes i'm sure.

So just for clarity.  You're saying the actions of the player in this game will determine the outcome of Brexit in the game?

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Just now, alandlondon said:

I'm not letting my political views cloud my design to 'play a bloody computer game'.

We don't even know if Brexit is going to happen yet (MPs still have to approve the deal when it comes back), and SI have put in a feature which essential 'breaks' my game, it makes up the rules as it goes along.

I want realism, I don't want guessing from programmer/designers.  Sure, put Brexit in, but when it actually happens and clubs in the real world have to deal with it.

But hey, thanks to data updates last years FM will do until a toggle gets patched in (which I'm guessing it will).

Peace and love.

x

The whole game is actually lots of guessing you know... 

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Just now, GSevensM75 said:

So just for clarity.  You're saying the actions of the player in this game will determine the outcome of Brexit in the game?

I have no knowledge about how it works at all other than what is said in the article:

" “As a result we’ve decided to go down another route, and have included every possible outcome in the game, using artificial intelligence and percentage chances to make every game different.” "

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On a personal note I believe it to be a fresh and very exciting addition to the game and one which will immerse me fully once more.

Only worry is that the AI on transfer/squad management needs to be top quality this year in order for it to work to a game playable level. Here's hoping this years release has an improved AI

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Just now, Double0Seven said:

People complaning about SI doing what they should do... make the game as realistic as they can. IF you dont like that why are you even playing fm in the first place? Ask yourself that.

People who answer that honestly are likely to get banned :onmehead:

My response still stands about realism though.  And if they wanted to introduce realistic events then why not introduce more football related ones, e.g. players going to jail, being done speeding, being caught in a sex tape scandal, punch ups on the training ground etc.

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7 minutes ago, From Perth to Paisley said:

I'd love a dynamic economy that could see new TV deals, TV crashes, league reconstruction etc.

It would keep the long term game fresh.

Exactly, that would be brilliant.

I think they can't go very far in that direction due to legal issues though.

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3 minutes ago, GSevensM75 said:
1 minute ago, GSevensM75 said:

People who answer that honestly are likely to get banned :onmehead:

My response still stands about realism though.  And if they wanted to introduce realistic events then why not introduce more football related ones, e.g. players going to jail, being done speeding, being caught in a sex tape scandal, punch ups on the training ground etc.

Simply because of the legal issues regarding having that stuff in the game..

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1 minute ago, Per Annum said:

Really missing how you are deducing that.

Because he said it won't be random.  So if it's not random and the player can't influence it then what exactly is it?  The only other thing it can be is that the game picks one of 4 or 5 pre-determined scenarios that occur when you launch the game and runs with it.  But that then would be randomly picked before the game finished initialising.  So if it's not random then it has to be influenced somehow by the player (because any AI influence would be....random!).

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16 minutes ago, alandlondon said:

Alright, first time poster, felt I had to share my view. 

Political aspects aside, this is a terrible idea and feels a little like a publicity stunt.  I wouldn't mind so much if players could toggle it on or off.

First of all:- no-one has any idea how Brexit will be changed by Football.  Having Brexit acted out by a bunch of designers/programmers, seems really odd.  Surely we wait until we have more Brexit detail before putting a major feature like this in?

Second, similar to the above; one of the options is Scotland becoming independent and remaining in the EU.  If we are talking realism, this wouldn't happen.  Scotland would need to reapply and then get accepted.  We don't know if that will happen but that's the point, ITS NOT REALISTIC! 

If this was an option that can be turned OFF then fine, but until then, this will be the first CM/FM I will not buy. I am not letting something like this ruin my save game.

Yeah, yeah 'bye, shut the door on your way out etc..' but I just wanted to state my point, I hope you enjoy FM and I hope I can enjoy it with you soon (as soon as Brexit can be turned off until we have more information on how it will effect football).

All good points and certainly welcomed regardless of opinion.

Ignore those that are quite harsh as there are a lot of people who post just to throw side shots and what not. ;)

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5 minutes ago, Welshace said:

Random is certainly the wrong word.... it will; be based on certain factors which way it goes i'm sure.

Random is exactly the right word if it's determined entirely by a random number generator selecting from a list of options weighted by probability, and not by a random number generator selecting from a weighted list of options determined or at least influenced by the end user and visible game statistics like everything else in FM. 

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6 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

People complaning about SI doing what they should do... make the game as realistic as they can. IF you dont like that why are you even playing fm in the first place? Ask yourself that.

I'm not saying it's a bad feature, it's a great feature, but if you're able to edit the EU status of every other country on the planet through the database editor, then you should be able to do the same with Brexit.  "Realism" isn't a convincing reason to force the feature considering all the other unrealistic stuff you can do with the editor.  And players shouldn't be acting as gatekeepers telling people whether they're the right kind of people to be playing the game.

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10 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

People complaning about SI doing what they should do... make the game as realistic as they can. IF you dont like that why are you even playing fm in the first place? Ask yourself that.

What other worthy game in this category besides the FM series is there? :S

It's a forum. People are allowed to express their concerns. It plays quite a significant part. 

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2 minutes ago, GSevensM75 said:

Because he said it won't be random.  So if it's not random and the player can't influence it then what exactly is it?  The only other thing it can be is that the game picks one of 4 or 5 pre-determined scenarios that occur when you launch the game and runs with it.  But that then would be randomly picked before the game finished initialising.  So if it's not random then it has to be influenced somehow by the player (because any AI influence would be....random!).

Random is where each available possibility has an equal chance of being the outcome.

This won't be random. SI will have consulted experts on these matters. So, for example they may have been advised of the following:

1. 60% chance of hard Brexit

2. 30% chance of softer Brexit with exceptions for entertainers / footballers re. employment

3. 10% chance of soft Brexit, with no significant long-term impact

 

If scenario 1 occurs in-game for example, then other probabilities come into play in the fashion of a probability tree e.g.

a. Scotland votes for independence & secedes from the UK - 65%

b. Scotland remains part of the UK - 35%

All of the above is NOT random as that word has a different meaning.

As political events develop of course e.g. if IRL the position of the hard-Brexit camp weakens, then in turn those probabilities will be adjusted by the usual updates to the game.


*** Disclaimer, % chances in this post are created by me, are merely illustrative, and do not necessarily reflect my views.

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Just now, Lord Rowell said:

Random is where each available possibility has an equal chance of being the outcome.

This won't be random. SI will have consulted experts on these matters. So, for example they may have been advised of the following:

1. 60% chance of hard Brexit

2. 30% chance of softer Brexit with exceptions for entertainers / footballers re. employment

3. 10% chance of soft Brexit, with no significant long-term impact

 

If scenario 1 occurs in-game for example, then other probabilities come into play in the fashion of a probability tree e.g.

a. Scotland votes for independence & secedes from the UK - 65%

b. Scotland remains part of the UK - 35%

All of the above is NOT random as that word has a different meaning.

As political events develop of course e.g. if IRL the position of the hard-Brexit camp weakens, then in turn those probabilities will be adjusted by the usual updates to the game.


*** Disclaimer, % chances in this post are created by me, are merely illustrative, and do not necessarily reflect my views.

Then we fundamentally disagree right there.  Randomness has nothing to do with an equal chance IMO.

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Bad move in my personal opinion. Should have been left until we actually know what will happen. Having such a game defining thing happening at random in any possible number of ways is just not a good idea. Yes I know injuries can do that too, but injuries are temporary and at worst, affect one season. Should have been left alone until we know the real life facts.

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9 minutes ago, GSevensM75 said:

As there potentially is with Brexit.

And SI aren't likely to get handed legal proceedings against them for Brexit outcomes, whereas they would if you start putting in criminal activities by players and clubs.

Anyway, if you'd like to see the kind of thing that you are suggesting in the game, please start a new thread in the Suggestions forum.

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1 minute ago, pheelf said:

It appears my reply hasn't registered...can a mod PM me as to why?

One of mine didn't either but I found the original post had been deleted. Also took a few clicks and a reload of another post to get it to work - I suspect the forum is creaking under the strain!!! :D

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27 minutes ago, alandlondon said:

Alright, first time poster, felt I had to share my view. 

Political aspects aside, this is a terrible idea and feels a little like a publicity stunt.  I wouldn't mind so much if players could toggle it on or off.

First of all:- no-one has any idea how Brexit will be changed by Football.  Having Brexit acted out by a bunch of designers/programmers, seems really odd.  Surely we wait until we have more Brexit detail before putting a major feature like this in?

Second, similar to the above; one of the options is Scotland becoming independent and remaining in the EU.  If we are talking realism, this wouldn't happen.  Scotland would need to reapply and then get accepted.  We don't know if that will happen but that's the point, ITS NOT REALISTIC! 

If this was an option that can be turned OFF then fine, but until then, this will be the first CM/FM I will not buy. I am not letting something like this ruin my save game.

Yeah, yeah 'bye, shut the door on your way out etc..' but I just wanted to state my point, I hope you enjoy FM and I hope I can enjoy it with you soon (as soon as Brexit can be turned off until we have more information on how it will effect football).

 

Thought I'd add my 2 cents (probably worth 2 pence now...) to this - I actually think you raise a couple of decent points.

To your first point, that'll be the reason why there are different examples popped in. I'd expect one those to be Brexit not actually going ahead, to cover all bases. Given the uncertainty I'd be astounded if there wasn't an opt-out at the game setup stage.

The second point is especially relevant to myself being based up here...there is a precedent for it, and the chief EU negotiator has stated that Scotland would be able to continue/be welcomed back immediately. No harm no foul here from SI. Whether it will actually happen is another matter!

Personally, I'm relishing the different challenges that these scenarios could bring. Adds another layer to the myriad of challenges in the game, and I salute the development team for being brave and bold enough for including it.

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It's a great addition. As long as we can save and reload on a certain date to get a certain outcome we want, if it's already pre-determined as soon as the save is created then I can imagine an awful lot of people, myself included, being extremely annoyed at this.

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I'm not entirely pleased to see this - and would much rather prefer it to be a toggle on/off thing, if as suggested in the features topic there's only three outcomes: 1. freedom of movement remains, 2. footballers in the UK get special status or 3. "hard" brexit happens and all non-UK players needs work permits. At this stage, with Article 50 not even triggered yet - and some debate as to whether the government can trigger it without Parliamentary approval - Brexit might not even happen (and no, I'm not trying to start a debate on this last point). 

I feel like it'd definitely ruin a fun save I had going if at a certain point all my players from Europe had to apply for work permits and my team ends up significantly weaker if they don't get them.

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1 minute ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

 

But it's based upon what SI staff think might happen.

Lucky SI is made up of socio-economic experts, financiers, business leaders and lawyers then.

Did you read the article? If not, you should.

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2 minutes ago, MAVFC9 said:

It's a great addition. As long as we can save and reload on a certain date to get a certain outcome we want, if it's already pre-determined as soon as the save is created then I can imagine an awful lot of people, myself included, being extremely annoyed at this.

I think it was mentioned that the outcome is decided quite early on in the game, possibly even at the start of the save.

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7 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Did you read the article? If not, you should.

Yes, are you referring to where he said they spoke to politicians and people in Football ?

or the bit where he admits that the ramifications are endless

or the bit where he admits that the situation changes daily ?

 

Edit : There may be a large number of potential outcomes in game , but the weight given to any potential likelihood is still utter guess work.

 

Edit 2 : I mean he says in the article 6 weeks ago a Hard Brexit was very unlikely , but off the back of the CPC it now seems more likely (so one would assume is granted more weight in the brexit generation) , but what happens if next week off the back of poor public reception the Tories back down and shy away from a hard brexit ? what happens in 3 /6/ 9 months ? The situation is too fluid for this to be feature at present , at least this year when everything changes daily.


I'm not against the feature , but it not being a toggle at this point is a shame.

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