Football Manager 2014 - Full Game Feedback/Tilbakemelding 14.1.3

[Cougar2010]

So i had one of those matches where you dominate but fail to win.I'm ok with it.It happens IRL.

BUT:

this is the goal i conceded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW5x5TzRwDQ

Failed to login into my Youtube account from FM.But hey i guess it's because of my **** tactic aswell.

They didn't score because of your tactics but your tactics played a part in why you failed to win.

From 38 shots you created just two clear chances and scored just the one goal. With that level of dominance you would expect to be two/three/four goals ahead so that the times the opposition score the odd freak goal or goal on the counter it doesn't matter to the overall result.

Did you attempt to make changes to your tactics during the game? Did you try to slow down the play, play wider, drag the defence around to create space?

These type of results do occur from time to time IRL but if you experience them regularly in FM then your tactics and the changes you make during games do play a role in the result. Goals matter, not stats, if you don't close a match out the opposition always have a chance to nick something even if you have outplayed them for 89mins.

[jc1]

But that's the point - you're forced to "beat the ME" by adapting to its quirks and what's efficient right now! Now wingers and crosses is known as a very efficient type of play, and a balanced/defensive approach seems to be more efficient than attacking with full force. People push up and hassle opponents etc not because that's what they like to play but because the defensive line drops too deep too early and players aren't engaging the ball carrier enough by default. What's the sense of playing Counter and then order Push Up, Play Wider, Hassle Opponents and a Target Man alongside a Poacher up front in a flat 442!? I am not saying that this is the only way to play FM14 currently, but word's going around it's a quick fix for people who are struggling to get results.

Well I'm not playing the boring old fashioned 4-4-2, I play 4-5-1/4-3-3 similar to Bayern Munich/Barca fullback to attack, push forward and close down, and all attack minded players to less risky passes and close down more, also the tempo is slow when on the ball. At the moment this is working well but TBH there is still a few issues with the ME which is being sorted as we speak, when that's done, my tactic may be useless and I'll have to look at it again.

Lets be honest here, if the game was too easy to play we'd all be world beaters, the ME is set up to make you think more about all the aspects of the game, tactics, team talk etc it's your job in the game to try to work out how to beat it and then keep beating it, I think people are playing with tactics they're used to thinking it'll work ok with this engine, they've become lazy and aren't wanting to work out what to do.

[parano1c]

They didn't score because of your tactics but your tactics played a part in why you failed to win.

From 38 shots you created just two clear chances and scored just the one goal. With that level of dominance you would expect to be two/three/four goals ahead so that the times the opposition score the odd freak goal or goal on the counter it doesn't matter to the overall result.

Did you attempt to make changes to your tactics during the game? Did you try to slow down the play, play wider, drag the defence around to create space?

These type of results do occur from time to time IRL but if you experience them regularly in FM then your tactics and the changes you make during games do play a role in the result. Goals matter, not stats, if you don't close a match out the opposition always have a chance to nick something even if you have outplayed them for 89mins.

You think a primitive user who just plug's and play's will bother going to SI forums leaving feedback? uploading video and ss? ofcourse i'm making changes.I had far more than 2 CCC it's a known issue.I didn't really get frustrated cause of the result it was the way they got it.You can save your further arguments i'm not the one who hates ME.

[ajw10]

My Barnet side was 13 points clear with 8 games to go. 4 defeats in 5 against the bottom 7 sides and it's now 6 points. I have utterly dominated every single game only for the opposition to score an absolute fluke. That's happened in three of those games. Absolutely ridiculous, it just feels so scripted and pre-determined.

[Jimmious7]

But that's the point - you're forced to "beat the ME" by adapting to its quirks and what's efficient right now! Now wingers and crosses is known as a very efficient type of play, and a balanced/defensive approach seems to be more efficient than attacking with full force. People push up and hassle opponents etc not because that's what they like to play but because the defensive line drops too deep too early and players aren't engaging the ball carrier enough by default. What's the sense of playing Counter and then order Push Up, Play Wider, Hassle Opponents and a Target Man alongside a Poacher up front in a flat 442!? I am not saying that this is the only way to play FM14 currently, but word's going around it's a quick fix for people who are struggling to get results.

Exactly! And FM shouldn't be about that. The main reason I always liked FMs/CMs is that you could win with any formation/strategy/tactic given that you apply it correctly and have the right players for it. Adjusting my tactics to suit the ME, because some parts are not working correctly is not a "challenge" but a limitation.

I'm very glad it's being addressed though and we'll get the patch during this week - at last

[RTHerringbone]

You think a primitive user who just plug's and play's will bother going to SI forums leaving feedback? uploading video and ss? ofcourse i'm making changes.I had far more than 2 CCC it's a known issue.I didn't really get frustrated cause of the result it was the way they got it.You can save your further arguments i'm not the one who hates ME.

Do you think their goal was actually a bug, or are there any grounds for it to be considered an error of judgement by the goalkeeper?

If you think it was a bug, please upload a .pkm to the bugs forum.

[Cougar2010]

You think a primitive user who just plug's and play's will bother going to SI forums leaving feedback? uploading video and ss? ofcourse i'm making changes.I had far more than 2 CCC it's a known issue.I didn't really get frustrated cause of the result it was the way they got it.You can save your further arguments i'm not the one who hates ME.

There have been and still are plenty of users on the forum who just select a tactic and press play making little or no changes during a match.

As for your result your vid suggests their goal came as a result of a GK error. It might not have looked pretty but errors occur lots in every game & occasionally they result in goals, FM even stores this information in your team stats. So basically you are complaining that one of your players made a mistake that cost your team a goal.

As I said my bigger concern if I was in your position is why didn't your team score more rather than the opposition scoring.

[BiggusD]

The problem with this is wanting to see everything in absolute terms. Your game experience from reading your posts seems to revolve around finding that certain something that 'works' instead of treating it as a football game. I absolutely agree that every version has some imbalances that make certain things consistently produce certain results, that's just the nature of the beast. In some versions these imbalances are subtle and in others they are undeniably blatant (like the super dribblers in FM13 or the amount of goals scored in active leagues in FM14). Regardless of this you mostly can still play whatever way you want if you don't focus on the flaws. It's the same in FM14 now. What's the sense in doing what you describe with the 442? I don't know, if you don't see it don't use these tactics! I don't. Many others don't yet they still enjoy the game and get success. You don't always have to be doing the things you know will guarantee you success - instead be creative and find success on your own terms. Try to implement tactics that you like to see with the kind of football you like to see played instead of just going with something that is effective in a certain ME.

Well I'm not playing the boring old fashioned 4-4-2, I play 4-5-1/4-3-3 similar to Bayern Munich/Barca fullback to attack, push forward and close down, and all attack minded players to less risky passes and close down more, also the tempo is slow when on the ball. At the moment this is working well but TBH there is still a few issues with the ME which is being sorted as we speak, when that's done, my tactic may be useless and I'll have to look at it again.

Lets be honest here, if the game was too easy to play we'd all be world beaters, the ME is set up to make you think more about all the aspects of the game, tactics, team talk etc it's your job in the game to try to work out how to beat it and then keep beating it, I think people are playing with tactics they're used to thinking it'll work ok with this engine, they've become lazy and aren't wanting to work out what to do.

Well my point was that people are being forced to adapt to the ME because of its faults in order to get a good gaming experience, and in the post above the one you guys responded to I pointed out that many of the complaints are likely to be tactical in nature but people "become lazy and aren't wanting to work out what to do" precisely because there might be an update ruining it all - and the belief that the ME is faulty is too strong to overcome.

As for that 433 - you just confirmed that you have adapted to the deficiensies of the ME just like all the others who succeed at the game. I would probably do the same because I am actually looking for that "sweet spot" as that is the way I play the game, but I think many are not doing this willingly but out of necessity - or not even knowingly.

Edit: And my point about that 442 making no sense was that it makes no sense tactically to play a careful, defensive game and then order the team to leave lots of space everywhere. It's the same as setting up a 235 overload tactic and then order Drop Deeper, Play Narrower, Retain Possession, Play Slower, Stand off and Stay On Feet.

[themadsheep2001]

Well my point was that people are being forced to adapt to the ME because of its faults in order to get a good gaming experience, and in the post above the one you guys responded to I pointed out that many of the complaints are likely to be tactical in nature but people "become lazy and aren't wanting to work out what to do" precisely because there might be an update ruining it all - and the belief that the ME is faulty is too strong to overcome.

As for that 433 - you just confirmed that you have adapted to the deficiensies of the ME just like all the others who succeed at the game. I would probably do the same because I am actually looking for that "sweet spot" as that is the way I play the game, but I think many are not doing this willingly but out of necessity - or not even knowingly.

Right, sorry need to stamp this kind of misinformation out. You are not forced to adapt to the ME because of its current issues. Can you please stop going round saying this. Its actually detrimental to peoples' experiences saying this. I'm not going to get into the same dance that we've had time and again, especially when it comes down to this "sweet spot". It's one thing for you to believe that, its another thing entirely to spread it around the forums.

[parano1c]

There have been and still are plenty of users on the forum who just select a tactic and press play making little or no changes during a match.

As for your result your vid suggests their goal came as a result of a GK error. It might not have looked pretty but errors occur lots in every game & occasionally they result in goals, FM even stores this information in your team stats. So basically you are complaining that one of your players made a mistake that cost your team a goal.

As I said my bigger concern if I was in your position is why didn't your team score more rather than the opposition scoring.

I have no concerns about my tactics whatsoever I won serie A with Milan with 8 games to go having zero complaints but the way abbiati reacted like the ball was hit low while it was high up looked very unrealistic.Yes keeper can have position problems, punching or passing, but doing the autist moves is quite bugged.Will upload it to bug forums.

[Äktsjon Männ]

And my point about that 442 making no sense was that it makes no sense tactically to play a careful, defensive game and then order the team to leave lots of space everywhere. It's the same as setting up a 235 overload tactic and then order Drop Deeper, Play Narrower, Retain Possession, Play Slower, Stand off and Stay On Feet.

Then don't! You don't have to do any of that. Reacting to certain niggles with certain instructions can be inevitable but that doesn't mean that you have to play in a certain way at all.

[Cougar2010]

I have no concerns about my tactics whatsoever I won serie A with Milan with 8 games to go having zero complaints but the way abbiati reacted like the ball was hit low while it was high up looked very unrealistic.Yes keeper can have position problems, punching or passing, but doing the autist moves is quite bugged.Will upload it to bug forums.

I wouldn't call it a bug as such tbh.

Its just a limitation of the graphics and the animations available. Each year/version more animations get added but we'll never reach a stage where we see the range of "animations" we see IRL.

[Cougar2010]

Edit: And my point about that 442 making no sense was that it makes no sense tactically to play a careful, defensive game and then order the team to leave lots of space everywhere. It's the same as setting up a 235 overload tactic and then order Drop Deeper, Play Narrower, Retain Possession, Play Slower, Stand off and Stay On Feet.

Why?

You set a basic overall framework for your "tactics" by selecting your formation etc and you then adjust it to strengthen its weak points or to take advantage of weak points in your oppositions tactics.

I regularly play a counter strategy to give me a patient buildup when attacking but I then use "Hassle opponents" if I feel we are giving them too much time on the ball when defending for example.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Did the keeper in that video get credited with a mistake leading to goal? If yes, then it's an animation issue, if not it's a bug with the ME mechanics.

[themadsheep2001]

Did the keeper in that video get credited with a mistake leading to goal? If yes, then it's an animation issue, if not it's a bug with the ME mechanics.

This, I would upload it either way, as both would need to be addressed.

[Schotsmannetje]

Why?

You set a basic overall framework for your "tactics" by selecting your formation etc and you then adjust it to strengthen its weak points or to take advantage of weak points in your oppositions tactics.

I regularly play a counter strategy to give me a patient buildup when attacking but I then use "Hassle opponents" if I feel we are giving them too much time on the ball when defending for example.

Not to spark a tactical discussion here, but I still find that one of the weird things of FM: that a counter strategy provides a patient buildup. Usually IRL teams that play on the counter leave the ball to the opposition but once they get the ball have a very quick buildup with fast runs on the flanks and players in the center that play long through balls either through the air or along the ground (like Mourinho's Inter or Real Madrid, Di Matteo's Chelsea or the most famous example Dynamo Kyev in the 80's). IRL it's usually the attacking teams like Arsenal, Barcelona and Team Holland that have a patient buildup but put a lot of pressure on the opposition.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Not to spark a tactical discussion here, but I still find that one of the weird things of FM: that a counter strategy provides a patient buildup. Usually IRL teams that play on the counter leave the ball to the opposition but once they get the ball have a very quick buildup with fast runs on the flanks and players in the center that play long through balls either through the air or along the ground (like Mourinho's Inter or Real Madrid, Di Matteo's Chelsea or the most famous example Dynamo Kyev in the 90's). IRL it's usually the attacking teams like Arsenal, Barcelona and Team Holland that have a patient buildup but put a lot of pressure on the opposition.

It's like that because of how the mentality instruction works. If you look at tactical instructions of a counter strategy then defenders are actually set to play more direct passes while forward players are expected to play it shorter - which makes sense. But defensive mentality means little risk taking which in turn means less adventurous passes = more passing it around in the defensive third. There are instructions to counter that of course and these should be made more obvious somehow because ultimately you're right - the common concept of counter attacking does not really involve patient build up from the back.

[Cougar2010]

Not to spark a tactical discussion here, but I still find that one of the weird things of FM: that a counter strategy provides a patient buildup. Usually IRL teams that play on the counter leave the ball to the opposition but once they get the ball have a very quick buildup with fast runs on the flanks and players in the center that play long through balls either through the air or along the ground (like Mourinho's Inter or Real Madrid, Di Matteo's Chelsea or the most famous example Dynamo Kyev in the 80's). IRL it's usually the attacking teams like Arsenal, Barcelona and Team Holland that have a patient buildup but put a lot of pressure on the opposition.

Yes its an issue I've mentioned before over the years.

I think some of the terminology SI have used in some areas leads to confusion for some users. Having strategies such as counter/control/attacking is one as well as having player instructions such as defend/support/attack. Having a ST on defend orders or a DC on attack orders can seem wrong until you understand what the instruction means.

[Bpz73]

I didn't get myself the game yet: still on FM13 until march and just reading this thread for pure amusement. Every year is the same old music here hehe. Mainly, i believe, because of miscommunication. As a completely neutral party, i would like to add my opinion that is based on a huge deal of experience with the game (which doesn't mean i'm right, only that i thought for a longer time hehe).

1- Being a Mod is a hard job, specially when it comes to moderate the yearly "new game thread". I understand, but not justify, that somebody might lose his temper and state silly things like "your tactic sucks". Just a suggestion: why not writing once and for all a comprehensive post in which wwfan or whoever else explains in detail WHY it is a tactical issue when you score a goal out of 30 shots (which is absolutely true) and then just copy and paste it every time somebody brings up that issue (which happens 1000 times a year)? This brings us to point 2.

2- Why is your tactic? Because of the 3D representation of the ME. Am i crazy? Maybe, but not because of what i just stated. When you have 30 shots on goal, usually, 28 are useless attempts even if they look like great chances in the highlights. You see your striker clear of the defense, only the gk to beat and.....he misses! Why? Because, even if you saw a clear chance in the 3D representation, that was maybe a 5% conversion chance attempt. And why the opposition gk gets 7.5 or 8 every match? Because the game counts: 9 shots on target, 8 saves. And gives him a high rating, even if they were terrible shots and very easy to keep. Just like when the commentary says "Oh, he wasted a great chance!!" but you see a feeble shot from 35 meters. How do i know this? I'm not a genius or a secret programmer for SI, i just watch the full games. The above problem is particularly evident when watching highlights. In the full game, you will convert most of the CCCs but shoot a lot less. Also, you will see the chances for what they are and, above all, understand why your tactic is failing.

3- This is the main problem, the thing that no Mod dare to say: To play FM effectively, you MUST watch the matches in full. That's the only way to understand what's really going on. Until you know exactly how your tactic plays, don't switch to the highlights. After 10 matches or so, you will know which countermeasures the AI tends to employ for your particular setting and how to react to them so you can switch to the highlights. This is a general rule that goes beyond any flaw in the ME.

This is my experience. I'm not saying you will win every match watching the 90 minutes or that you will not win playing with the highlights. Only that the full match explains everything while the end of match stats mean nothing. If you watch the match, you will see your side dominating and deserve to lose 1-0 on the only shot the opposition had and you will understand why. I'm not a tactical genius, many people better than me here. But this is not football, is FM. Every new version has a different ME to which we have to adapt by understanding it. And the only way is by watching the full match which means that people with few time to play, like me, will start buying a version every 2 or 3 years.

[RTHerringbone]

3- This is the main problem, the thing that no Mod dare to say: To play FM effectively, you MUST watch the matches in full. That's the only way to understand what's really going on. Until you know exactly how your tactic plays, don't switch to the highlights. After 10 matches or so, you will know which countermeasures the AI tends to employ for your particular setting and how to react to them so you can switch to the highlights. This is a general rule that goes beyond any flaw in the ME.

I'm a Mod, and I dare to agree with this

It is just simple logic that the more you watch, the more you see.

When you start a new game with a new team, a new tactical interface and a new Match Engine, it would be somewhat optimistic to just randomly select a few instructions and go straight to a short form of Highlights and expect to see beautifully fluent football which exactly interprets your interpretation of the tactical interface.

Like you say, you only need to do this for the first few matches, and thereafter you can revert to one of the more Highlighted views.

[Fabio MVP]

My Barnet side was 13 points clear with 8 games to go. 4 defeats in 5 against the bottom 7 sides and it's now 6 points. I have utterly dominated every single game only for the opposition to score an absolute fluke. That's happened in three of those games. Absolutely ridiculous, it just feels so scripted and pre-determined.

You should know, that the right thing to do in those situations is to drop pressure through team talks and press conferences. Had that happened two seasons in a row on FM 13 until I've read a thread where wwfan told me to do so and it worked.

[CityAndColour]

I wouldn't call it a bug as such tbh.

Its just a limitation of the graphics and the animations available. Each year/version more animations get added but we'll never reach a stage where we see the range of "animations" we see IRL.

And we're back to the whole "the animation doesn't necessarily represent what actually happened in the match engine" garbage, which has been denied by mods and developers alike as being the case (and really is a bug in itself anyway, if it were true).

[Cougar2010]

And we're back to the whole "the animation doesn't necessarily represent what actually happened in the match engine" garbage, which has been denied by mods and developers alike as being the case (and really is a bug in itself anyway, if it were true).

Urm, thats not what I said at all.

The animation does reflect a mistake IMO its just not as clear/pretty/obvious/realistic as it could be.

[RTHerringbone]

And we're back to the whole "the animation doesn't necessarily represent what actually happened in the match engine" garbage, which has been denied by mods and developers alike as being the case (and really is a bug in itself anyway, if it were true).

What if the game was still 2D?

Would seeing that goal in 2D make you perceive it to be any more or less buggy?

Animations or no animations, perceptions of whether or not that goal was bugged are quite subjective.

parano1c was planning to upload it to the Bugs Forum to get a conclusive view from SI (hasn't posted it yet), so that might result in a more informed appraisal overall of what actually happened.

As is often the case with human nature, we only ever see videos uploaded here of things that look odd.

The fact that paranoi1c won Serie A with 8 games to go passes unnoticed.

Did the keeper make errors in the other 37 games? If he made errors like this repeatedly, then there is either a ME issue, or he is a bad keeper (or both).

One-off goals or errors are inconclusive and cannot often be regarded as bugs in their own right.

[Hit the upright]

Now football tactics have interested me for a very long time ever since I read about England’s wingless wonders of 66, the final of which I watched although I was very young at the time, however, not all football matches are won or lost because of the application of tactics, luck, errors and moments of individual magic are just as likely to win games and sometimes it’s a combination of the two. It seems to me that the argument being put forward rather a lot in this thread is that if you can’t win, or if you do win but have to create 25 plus chances in order to get a couple of CCC, then it’s because your tactics are wrong, this is just plain nonsense a great deal of the time. For a start off, real teams in the leagues do not create 25 plus chances a game on a regular basis, certainly not in the way this ME regularly does and certainly not 30 and even 40 plus chances that’s just ludicrous, secondly it’s obvious the ME is not counting CCCs realistically. Thirdly in real football if a team dominates play and gets 25 chances at goal and can’t score, then it’s usually because the opposition defenders and GK have played really well, shots have been kept to long range, blocked or saved and you would expect any summery or ratings of the players to reflect that, however, this does not happen in this match engine, all too often the ratings of the defenders and GK are really poor and its obvious when watching the game in full that its poor finishing not good defending that’s making the difference, now if you are playing strikers who are not up to much, or if it only happens in the odd game then it might be understandable, but we all know that’s not the case most of the time. In my opinion the reason games all too frequently have too many chances is because closing down is not being implemented correctly, it would appear that the ME knows that games cannot be too high scoring, there must be some parameters, so it is using poor finishing to compensate.

The bottom line is this, if the only way to win matches with this ME or at least make your wins look faintly like the real thing, is to spend hours reading up on and making tiny adjustments to tactics, in what to all intents and purpose looks like lock picking the ME and this regardless of the ability of the players at your disposal and your ability to motivate them then the ME is not replicating real football, because tactics in real football while they have become very important are not the be all end all of creating a winning team. Managing a successful football team is the ability to combine tactics, players abilities and motivation, all of these things are important and it’s not just about finding the correct tactical plan in every game, my concern in FM2014 is that the implication of tactical formations is being pushed too hard at the expense of the other two and leading to an imbalance.

[ChrisLiebing]

Now football tactics have interested me for a very long time ever since I read about England’s wingless wonders of 66, the final of which I watched although I was very young at the time, however, not all football matches are won or lost because of the application of tactics, luck, errors and moments of individual magic are just as likely to win games and sometimes it’s a combination of the two. It seems to me that the argument being put forward rather a lot in this thread is that if you can’t win, or if you do win but have to create 25 plus chances in order to get a couple of CCC, then it’s because your tactics are wrong, this is just plain nonsense a great deal of the time. For a start off, real teams in the leagues do not create 25 plus chances a game on a regular basis, certainly not in the way this ME regularly does and certainly not 30 and even 40 plus chances that’s just ludicrous, secondly it’s obvious the ME is not counting CCCs realistically. Thirdly in real football if a team dominates play and gets 25 chances at goal and can’t score, then it’s usually because the opposition defenders and GK have played really well, shots have been kept to long range, blocked or saved and you would expect any summery or ratings of the players to reflect that, however, this does not happen in this match engine, all too often the ratings of the defenders and GK are really poor and its obvious when watching the game in full that its poor finishing not good defending that’s making the difference, now if you are playing strikers who are not up to much, or if it only happens in the odd game then it might be understandable, but we all know that’s not the case most of the time. In my opinion the reason games all too frequently have too many chances is because closing down is not being implemented correctly, it would appear that the ME knows that games cannot be too high scoring, there must be some parameters, so it is using poor finishing to compensate.

The bottom line is this, if the only way to win matches with this ME or at least make your wins look faintly like the real thing, is to spend hours reading up on and making tiny adjustments to tactics, in what to all intents and purpose looks like lock picking the ME and this regardless of the ability of the players at your disposal and your ability to motivate them then the ME is not replicating real football, because tactics in real football while they have become very important are not the be all end all of creating a winning team. Managing a successful football team is the ability to combine tactics, players abilities and motivation, all of these things are important and it’s not just about finding the correct tactical plan in every game, my concern in FM2014 is that the implication of tactical formations is being pushed too hard at the expense of the other two and leading to an imbalance.

Absolutely correct, the game is a bad way right now, i just don't see why people cant put their hands up and say yep its a mess but we're working on it to chill til the patch comes, all this stuff about raking thru the tactics forum to find something that works is a load of hot air. It is the same every year, FM13 wasn't playable imo until patch 3 and 14 is looking the same.

[darthrodent]

I think this is a fair point to make. It is also a little bit of a catche 22 in some respects, certain 'issues' in the ME are making some peoples tactics appear amazing, but at the same time those users are being undone tactically by things the ME isn't showing very well. For example I have conceded 3 goals in as many games from short corners, the only way to solve this is wait for an update in which defending said set piece is looked at.

For me it's not the results of 30+ shots on target 5CCC and only 9 long shots which I find detract from my complete enjoyment many of these are explainable, in some cases (not all) shot stats can't really be trusted, for instance one probelm in the ME means players shoot to readily without looking for other options, so some shots which are either weak or from silly angles are registering making it appear you more hard done by then perhaps you are. For me its the little quirks, I have watched my last 4 games on full match mode and some things do damage the realism, people passing corners short and getting it back in an offside position, the short passes which bounce of players who stand and watch. Too many cases of trying to win corners. Shooting too soon. Defensive wing play. Clearing the ball under little pressure when options are available to keep possession, which are things you see more of the more of a match you view.

But I have every confidence these issues will be ironed out to make the ME better. Its easy to get frustrated, and if you are someone who has played FM for a long time and find yourself struggling like never before, being told to go check out the tactics forum may seem a bit of a cop out, saying that it can help, some stuff is really good to read no matter the level of depth you go into tactically, and some is really good at making you think differently.

The only argument I see which I 100% understand is that the game should be more welcoming in terms of tactics with a better way of showing you why your having problems, and what the decisions you make really mean. Not everyone has the time or inclination to watch comprehensive or full match detail, or to pour over threads on forums and these people have contributed to the games economic success as much as anyone and if they feel they are being left behind then thats something that needs to be looked into.

For the first time in as long as I can remember—I've been playing these games since the very first "Champ Man"—I decided to avoid the forums completely until I had played the game for a while; after all he power of suggestion has a powerful influence on one's perception. My conclusion, having played the game solidly for weeks now, is that I will play it for the next year whether it is patched or not. What does it say, that I would never have assumed anything was drastically wrong with the game until I logged back on here? I'm easy to please? I'm submissive? I'm a fanboy? I'm wrong? Forum members are wrong? My opinion is distorted because I got Burnley promoted at the first time of asking? The game is actually really good?…

I've been critical of the game in the past and, being a man of science, I like to think I am ultra-objective, skeptical and rational. In other words if I see something wrong I'm not going to selectively disregard it. I have noticed a few issues: players shooting from ridiculous angles, wingers not crossing despite having a man open for an easy pass, goalkeepers not distributing it to the player I specify, full backs too often getting low ratings—and there are more. But there always are issues and there always will be. Part of being an FM fan is accepting that the game is excellent most of the time and downright annoying some of the time. When the game punishes the user for his mistakes—albeit quite harshly—he has two options the way I see it: 1. Claim the AI is a *$##$^ big pile of cheating bleep as SI are too, or 2. Accept that the game is trying to tell him something and use the many points of data and information to make some inferences on what went wrong and make changes accordingly. Whenever the AI implements "one shot one goal" syndrome, I perceive that as the game providing feedback that there was something I did that was wrong. The successful managers are the managers that can decipher what that is and adapt and make changes. It is this problem solving aspect that makes the game—for me—so damn enjoyable.

I disagree that the game should be more welcoming in terms of tactics showing you why you're having problems. Because that's your job. Take that away and, for me, you take away the ambiguity and excitement of management, but more importantly you take away the core of Football Manager. Watching the match will tell you why you're having problems and the decisions you make will be manifested in front of your eyes. I pose a challenge to you. Next time you watch a Premiership match—or the league of your choice—pretend you're the manager of the weaker side that's playing and try and come up with a bunch of reasons why your team is getting dominated and attempt to formulate a tactical plan that could improve performance. It's actually quite difficult to do and so it should be too in Football Manager. The day the game says something to me along the lines of Your system is too rigid as it stands and your defensive line is too high—your defenders aren't fast enough to make up the ground when balls are played over their heads; you should play narrower so you're harder to break down and the opposition's full backs are pushing so high up you should switch to a counter attacking system…is the day I hang up my virtual whiteboard and marker. I'd agree if you'd said that SI should do a better job of explaining more in detail what tactics actually do, but I don't believe the game should tell us how to be more successful.

[themadsheep2001]

I had been wondering where you had been darthrodent, been a while. since you've not been on this thread, I'd be very interested to hear your feedback.

[ArneH]

I can't be bothered to reply on everything. But one thing, if you ask where the insult it: it's redundant that whenever an issue is raised the automatic respons is "it's your tactics", without even knowing in almost all cases what the tactics of the player is. Even some moderators are doing it, whilst a more levelheaded respons from them would probably not stir ups things even further.

The redundancy is in the fact that some of those players have been playing this game for a long while even and/or others know well enough about tactics. After all if your tactic is currently working: good for you. That doesn't mean there aren't any issues excisting and the other must be tactical incompetent. After all there are so many tactics out there in the real world as well. But vice versa, if your tactic is currently not working is doesn't also mean the match engine must be broken. As said before, look close at your games what is working and what not. That's half the fun of this game if you ask me since real life coaches do the same after all.

So the midst position seems the most levelheaded here: there are some issues with the ME, and there are players who could use tactical advice (thing is don't confuse advice with telling them what to do, as that happens plenty). The upcoming patch will hopefully bring much clarity. I'm very anxious to see what changes has been made in it.

The ME side is ready we are just dealing with another couple of issues and it should be live this week sometime. Can't be any more specific than that. Again thanks for your patience!

Thank you for the update!

On a sidenote: what I'd really love to see is the possibility for "match analyses" (with things as avarage positions etc) for multiple games (5 or a whole season even). I think that would be very learnful to see where things might go wrong. I figure this wouldn't be easy though as match calculations have to be made and then the avarage be made out of it.

[coady]

I think this is the first ever time that the beta/demo was better than the full game patch 14.1.3. I agree with many people's complaining its simply tactics to people who say why am I losing for. However, there are some issues on this years release & most recent patch in particular that even avid defenders like myself can't put tactics down to. Both Full backs averaging under 5.00 match rating over a season when you go unbeaten and both have around 10 assists and a few goals is clearly not correct. The level of standing off defenders do on the 3D match engine when you set them & the team to hassle opponents and/or mark their striker closely is clearly not right. Multiple leagues where no team is average more than a goal a game is not normal every season. I know many people love FM and may not have some of the problems others are complaining about, but some are legitimate and are not just 'tactics', as if they were SI wouldn't be rushing around talking about a 'patch with fixes' coming out this week. The beta was good aside from the low transfer offers and acceptance & the last FM13 patch was great, so I feel it's a shame that SI have taken a rare backwards step and released it to the public. I'd rather wait till December and get a game that's been tested fully and made great from the start.

[Kriss]

Absolutely correct, the game is a bad way right now, i just don't see why people cant put their hands up and say yep its a mess

Because it's not "a mess" and those who say it is need to read posts like darthrodent's (welcome back ratty )

[Hit the upright]

Because it's not "a mess" and those who say it is need to read posts like darthrodent's (welcome back ratty )

No its not a mess, lots of it is really good so its important that we concentrate on the things that are wrong and not have people cloud issues by trying to turn all conversation into either or arguments, in this case its either tactics or ME when in reality its a bit of both.

[roykela]

Another thing i've noticed which also happened with FM13.

I play the game windowed and if i minimise the window during processing the game window pops up again after a while.

It won't stay minimized.

I normally browse the internet during processing but the FM window will always stay in front and focused. Every other window or application will stay in the background.

That after the game has been open a while.

It's a bit frustrating that the game chooses to pop right back up after minimizing as it then blocks every other window open. And due to it being unresponsive most of the processing time i have to wait quite a while for me to be able to minimizing it again.

Although then, when it has popped back up, the minimize window button isn't there. It has become restore window instead. So i actually have to restore the game window, even though the game restored it itself, and then click minimize again.

That was probably a complicated way of describing it, but hopefully somebody knows what i mean.

If it's something i should take to the bugs forum please let me know.

[stuart_davison]

Hi, I was just wondering why they have decided to remove the option for a graphical display of players attributes (bars indicating attribute strength instead of the numbers 0-20). Also will this feature be added in a patch, add-on or mod? I find it very difficult to make the transition to using the numbers as I have been using the graphical display since 2007. I don't really know much about the coding, but is it that difficult a feature to add in and did it take up a lot of time that it needed removed?

Thanks

[SurferJames]

I think it's too much to say its a mess because to be fair it's quite playable,obviously there are few bugs hence the patches like any other game but I don't think it hinders the gameplay,enjoyment and the features in fm 2014..people say tactics because most of the time it is a possible solution to your problems. Most games require patches these days because customers expect more for their money, it's just about patience and understanding the fact SI do the very best they can too keep you happy,there not a lot of forums that help you out like this forum for example, call duty ghost support don't give you updates on what they are fixing.

[sirgiorgio]

I'd agree if you'd said that SI should do a better job of explaining more in detail what tactics actually do,

I'd agree, too. In my opinion this thread would be 3-page-long, instead of 44, if certain roles/mentalities were explained more accurately. And I suppose 90% of you guys play the game in English... In the Italian version, the same roles are translated in two ore three different ways (Inside forward is Attaccante esterno, Seconda punta or Punta esterna...) and different roles are translated in the same way (Deep-lying playmaker = regista).

but I don't believe the game should tell us how to be more successful.

The game shouldn't (but in fact it does, or at least it tries... See: assistant advices), but "experience" definitely should. But then you wrote:

players shooting from ridiculous angles, wingers not crossing despite having a man open for an easy pass, goalkeepers not distributing it to the player I specify, full backs too often getting low ratings—and there are more.

Given the current state of the ME, some people can't see the forest (their tactics) for the trees (the bugs/issues) and I can't blame them.

[Kriss]

Hi, I was just wondering why they have decided to remove the option for a graphical display of players attributes (bars indicating attribute strength instead of the numbers 0-20). Also will this feature be added in a patch, add-on or mod? I find it very difficult to make the transition to using the numbers as I have been using the graphical display since 2007. I don't really know much about the coding, but is it that difficult a feature to add in and did it take up a lot of time that it needed removed?

Thanks

It was found to be causing some issues, it may reappear in future but not for FM14.

[darthrodent]

I had been wondering where you had been darthrodent, been a while. since you've not been on this thread, I'd be very interested to hear your feedback.

You became a mod! I am so, SO sorry

I'll gather my thoughts and post soon as I can.

[imabearlol]

I certainly wouldn't say the game was unplayable, but in its current state I wouldn't say it is a realistic representation of what a real football match looks like either. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying what is certainly the best football simulation out there, it's just when I'm watching a match I don't really feel like I'm watching football and I can't immerse myself quite so much. Stuff like one-on-one chances rarely being converted, short corners producing a large amount of goals for a defender, playing for corners excessively all serve to detract from the overall experience for me. I think the distinction needs to be made between these kinds of "bugs", which once tuned would make for a more realistic game are what this thread should be focusing on with regards to the match engine, rather than the tactical issues that others seem to be facing.

I love strategy and I try to follow real-life football tactics as much as possible. I've lurked the Tactics forums for some time trying to translate what knowledge I have of football systems to implement my ideal playing style. It doesn't always work out however, and I can totally understand how someone who does not spend as much time as I do having more trouble than me. Personally, I can more or less get my team to play how I want after a long period of experimentation, albeit in a fairly limited way. Ideally I would like to be able to issue instructions to my players and change the shape of the team per phase, e.g. without the ball > initial transition after gaining possession > developing play once transition breaks down > extended period of possession > defensive transition once ball is lost > extended period without the ball > repeat. I'd also like to be able to have clearer instructions on what the player roles do exactly and the ability to create my own roles, both of which would vastly improve the flexibility of the TC in my view.

That said, graphically the ME has much improved since FM13 which I only noticed when I played a few matches from my old save to compare the two MEs. There are also less "patterns of play" in the FM14 ME - previously I could predict with some accuracy how an attacking move would develop before it even started. I also think the new UI makes navigating things much easier, and transfers to be generally more realistic than they used to be. In FM13, I could just about buy anybody except Messi/Ronaldo using Arsenal, but in this version I find I have to opt for more realistic options such as those who've been linked to Arsenal in real life, rather than just getting Gotze, Neymar, Hazard and dominating for the next 10 years.

Anyway I think both sides need to meet in the middle. I notice some users talking about the "bugs" I mentioned above get shot down too easily and told "It's your tactics", whereas some frustrated users don't understand why their approach is failing to get goals. Currently this thread seems to have a "user-vs-mods" kind of vibe, which is not very pleasant. An affirmation from the mods here that there is indeed some room for improvement in the ME, and acceptance from some users that what they see is not entirely unrealistic and can happen in real football (and that it is actually their tactics) could go a long way to creating a more civil atmosphere in here.

[Moose-Stuff-For-Money]

For the first time in as long as I can remember—I've been playing these games since the very first "Champ Man"—I decided to avoid the forums completely until I had played the game for a while; after all he power of suggestion has a powerful influence on one's perception. My conclusion, having played the game solidly for weeks now, is that I will play it for the next year whether it is patched or not. What does it say, that I would never have assumed anything was drastically wrong with the game until I logged back on here? I'm easy to please? I'm submissive? I'm a fanboy? I'm wrong? Forum members are wrong? My opinion is distorted because I got Burnley promoted at the first time of asking? The game is actually really good?…

I've been critical of the game in the past and, being a man of science, I like to think I am ultra-objective, skeptical and rational. In other words if I see something wrong I'm not going to selectively disregard it. I have noticed a few issues: players shooting from ridiculous angles, wingers not crossing despite having a man open for an easy pass, goalkeepers not distributing it to the player I specify, full backs too often getting low ratings—and there are more. But there always are issues and there always will be. Part of being an FM fan is accepting that the game is excellent most of the time and downright annoying some of the time. When the game punishes the user for his mistakes—albeit quite harshly—he has two options the way I see it: 1. Claim the AI is a *$##$^ big pile of cheating bleep as SI are too, or 2. Accept that the game is trying to tell him something and use the many points of data and information to make some inferences on what went wrong and make changes accordingly. Whenever the AI implements "one shot one goal" syndrome, I perceive that as the game providing feedback that there was something I did that was wrong. The successful managers are the managers that can decipher what that is and adapt and make changes. It is this problem solving aspect that makes the game—for me—so damn enjoyable.

I disagree that the game should be more welcoming in terms of tactics showing you why you're having problems. Because that's your job. Take that away and, for me, you take away the ambiguity and excitement of management, but more importantly you take away the core of Football Manager. Watching the match will tell you why you're having problems and the decisions you make will be manifested in front of your eyes. I pose a challenge to you. Next time you watch a Premiership match—or the league of your choice—pretend you're the manager of the weaker side that's playing and try and come up with a bunch of reasons why your team is getting dominated and attempt to formulate a tactical plan that could improve performance. It's actually quite difficult to do and so it should be too in Football Manager. The day the game says something to me along the lines of Your system is too rigid as it stands and your defensive line is too high—your defenders aren't fast enough to make up the ground when balls are played over their heads; you should play narrower so you're harder to break down and the opposition's full backs are pushing so high up you should switch to a counter attacking system…is the day I hang up my virtual whiteboard and marker. I'd agree if you'd said that SI should do a better job of explaining more in detail what tactics actually do, but I don't believe the game should tell us how to be more successful.

Ok, I am not quite sure how to discern the tone here, as I haven't mentioned anything in regards to the part highlighted.

The second paragraph I am going to assume isn't anyway addressed to my post as I agree with what you say 100%

The third part I think perhaps I wasn't concise enough in my meaning. I am not arguing for a tutorial to make a complete tactic, rather a middle ground that would give better levels of feedback to the player. Failing that perhaps some in-game literature which delved more deeply into roles and formations and the relationships therein. Just something that means people don't have to trapse through threads and articles. Not saying thats the way it should be, just what I believe could help people.

[Jibby123]

For the first time in as long as I can remember—I've been playing these games since the very first "Champ Man"—I decided to avoid the forums completely until I had played the game for a while; after all he power of suggestion has a powerful influence on one's perception. My conclusion, having played the game solidly for weeks now, is that I will play it for the next year whether it is patched or not. What does it say, that I would never have assumed anything was drastically wrong with the game until I logged back on here? I'm easy to please? I'm submissive? I'm a fanboy? I'm wrong? Forum members are wrong? My opinion is distorted because I got Burnley promoted at the first time of asking? The game is actually really good?….

It's a good point. My mate doesn't even care this place exists and even less cares for tactical guru's or fanboys or moaners, every year he buys FM, every year he loves it. When I try to talk to him about patches and bugs he looks at me like I'm mad and/or an idiot. Or looks at me that way more than he normally does.

There's a lot to be said for "power of suggestion has a powerful influence on one's perception". It's too easy to get caught up in the negativity, read it, then play your game looking for that bug or niggle.

[kilik]

wish there was an option to talk to a player who is reluctant to leave the club to try convince them they wont get played so they should leave

frustrating that no teams bid for them because of that

[Aidan1991]

Just something small that's been bugging me...

When teams ask to loan players, the majority of the time they ask for a 3 month loan. This is all well and good, but once the 3 months expires they always ask for another 3 months again,this continues until the end of the season.

I know i can just offer them a End of season loan, but it's annoying i have to do that. If the guys working on the current patch could fix this, would be dandy.

[Kriss]

Just something small that's been bugging me...

When teams ask to loan players, the majority of the time they ask for a 3 month loan. This is all well and good, but once the 3 months expires they always ask for another 3 months again,this continues until the end of the season.

I know i can just offer them a End of season loan, but it's annoying i have to do that. If the guys working on the current patch could fix this, would be dandy.

Where are you managing? In Argentina I always get loans requested till end of season.

[Aidan1991]

Where are you managing? In Argentina I always get loans requested till end of season.

I'm managing Newcastle United in the Premier league.

Sometimes i'll have the odd End of season loan, but the majority are recurring 3 month deals.

[Kriss]

I'm managing Newcastle United in the Premier league.

Sometimes i'll have the odd End of season loan, but the majority are incurring 3 month deals.

I doubt it's a bug tbh, maybe somebody else managing in England can tell us how it works for them.

[The Threadstarter]

off topic on goalkeeper video, how did you get the names floating over players so large?

or is it video only that makes it somehow look bigger than ingame?

[Aidan1991]

I doubt it's a bug tbh, maybe somebody else managing in England can tell us how it works for them.

Appreciate it mate, although it's not exactly game breaking and i always work around the issue, it certainly "bugs" me

[Caketiger]

What I am intrigued by is how the current problems in the game are not discovered in testing. I appreciate there will be minor faults that slip through the net and most people can live with that. The problems with poor FB performance and re-signing players in lower divisions are major problems and are obvious to most users after only a few hours' play. So how did the testers not spot them?

The longer the game remains in its current state without a patch, the more it feels like an extended beta test. The only difference is we have paid full price for the game. All the nonsense about refusing to say when a patch will be released is irritating too. It's starting to feel like SI are milking a cash cow and its customers are treated with disdain.

[Skw91]

Ii've found that there seems to be a red card in every game I'm involved in. Sometimes its the opposition having 1 sent off and others its me. My tackling is always set to easy in order to avoid sendings off but it doesnt seem to in this patch. Also, I had my keeper do an Enckleman from a throw in and the game gave it as a goal kick to me.