Simple crafting of a 4-3-3 DM

[Johnny Ace]

One of the more popular shapes in football, I thought I’d craft together three 4-4-3 DMs and show my thought processes behind the choice of roles and duties for each one

I’m not going to include Team Instructions, they’re not intended as Plug and Play or anything, they’re not magic or anything fancy, just straight forward simple 4-3-3’s, feel free to use the ideas or use them as a base, the idea is they’re nice and balanced and follow simple logic

4-3-3 Number One- the out and striker

For when you have a great striker that excels in scoring goals, think a Man City 4-3-3 with Haaland

Starting with the back four, the straight forward option here is a pair of Central Defenders, a Ball-Playing Defender is a good option with a capable player to play out from the back. As I’ll have a DM as an easy option for the centre backs two plain Jane Central Defenders will be fine here.

I’ll be going with Wingbacks as I’ll have a defensive DM for cover and I’ll be inverting the wide attackers, so I see them as a good choice to get forward in those wide areas, stretch the opposition and provide crosses

 

For the DM slot, I do want a Defend duty role here so that narrows down the options, a Half Back would great for when we’re playing out from the back, a Deep Lying Playmaker would be a creative pick, an Anchor would be a solid and disciplined choice, a Defensive Midfielder would serve just fine, sitting in front of the backline and letting the Wingbacks forward

 

The two midfield “8’s” serve an important job to link, supply, cover and create. Both wingbacks will be getting forward, both wide attackers will be moving infield, I don’t need either of these two trying to get too far forward and piling into the box. If they did that, they might break too far away from the DM and create a huge chasm of space in the midfield which would cause us problems in build-up and transition. Two Central Midfielders on Support here would do the job but let’s have some fun.

A natural ball winner could help patrol the right hand side of midfield with the WB(A) on that flank. A BBM(S) on the left side of central midfield would help offer something different. BBMs like to surge between the boxes and roam, having the WB(S) on his side of the field would tie up nicely.

The Front three

The number 9, Football Manager gives plenty of choice here in terms of roles.

The available roles to most teams will be the Pressing Forward to lead the line and chase down centre backs out of possession, great for high pressing tactics. The Poacher to stay in the box and sniff out chances, little else and the Advanced Forward as a bit of an inbetween. As the full backs will be providing the team with crosses, a Target Forward could be a choice but in a 4-3-3 DM, I feel it’s a little one dimensional and would prefer a partner for the TF in the AMC or Striker position. The 

Complete Forward is an amazing striker role, he has to be a very well rounded player and won’t be as common amongst squads

From out wide on the right, we’ll have the Wing Back overlapping so we have options here that cut infield. He could be the focus as an Advanced Playmaker or Trequartista. I only have an attacking 3 though so I want him more focused on getting into the box to create and score and the Inside Forward is perfect for that. The Inside Forward is one of the more attacking roles from out wide, the way I see it, the IF on Attack is a primary goal scorer from wide like prime Mo Salah, he is the Inside Forward on Attack. An Inside Forward on Support here will still push forward, cut in, create and score but will have slightly more focus on supporting the striker over an Attack duty

For the opposite wing, I want a creative role again to help feed the number 9, again an Advanced Playmaker could be a great choice but it’s not very often you’ll be starting a managerial job with a player at your disposal capable of playing the role. Another Inside Forward on Support this side of the field might be too much and would mirror the flanks, so an Inverted Winger will do as needed

 

Spoiler

Nice and simple, the line-up offers something different on both sides of the field, the roles (barring the Central Defenders) all have different tasks. The midfield work as a nice trio and will do a great job in covering central areas and getting the ball forward to the front 3. The Wingbacks give the team width, the right WB, the more attacking of the two and has cover on that side firstly from the BWM and secondly from the DM. The front 3 all have different jobs. AF score, IF create and score, IW create.

[Johnny Ace]

4-3-3 Number Two- the creative striker

For when you have a great striker that excels in creating goals, think a Liverpool 4-3-3 with Firmino

The base of the tactic will remain the same, the front three’s roles will obviously change

The “False Nine” here has some great options, firstly the obvious, a False 9(S) that will look to drop off deep in build-up to create and dribble. A DLF(S) that will drop off the backline and hold the ball up to link play, create and dribble. The CF(S) will drop off, roam, dribble and create. The Pressing Forward(S) and Target Forward(S) won’t be pressing on the backline as much as they do on an Attack Duty and will be slightly more focused on finding team mates than finding the back on the net. It’s also worth noting, a Support or Defend striker can still score if they’re capable, they’re still a striker at the end of the day and will still find themselves on the end of attacking moves, just less so than an Attack duty

 

A Support (or Defend) duty striker means we switch the tactic’s goal scorer, we need to find goals from elsewhere. As mentioned earlier with Mo Salah, he’ll be the number 9 coming from wide but the same logic will apply to any team that has their own Bobby and Mo.

On the other flank, the Mane, now the two main role has been set, the third attacker can be a creative and scoring focused role. As I already have an Inside Forward on the right and we used an Inverted Winger previously switching the duty to Attack is the most straight forward change

 

Spoiler

As in 4-3-3 DM number one, we still have the Wingback’s width, we still have the cohesive midfield 3. The BWM to help support and cover for the IF. The IW(A) on the left with the BBM on his inside just now the wide attackers have the DLF to drop off and try and find them

4-3-3 Number Three- the creative goal scoring striker

For when you have a great striker capable of both creating and scoring, think Harry Kane in a 4-3-3

There's a good few picks here for the role, a Deep Lying Forward on Attack is probably the most common you'll manage. The Trequartista and Complete Forward are two other stand out picks capable of moving about, creating chances and scoring , for the sake of simplicity, the DLF(A) is my choice here

I'll keep the Inside Forward on Attack for the right wing (for the Son/Kane partnership even though it's the wrong wing) and lower the Inverted Wingers duty on the left flank back to Support

Spoiler

These are the three ways I like to start out a 4-3-3 DM when I start a new job, keep it nice and simple and build from there 

[Poison]

I like them all, I believe the one with the advanced forward would be better for worse teams to ease the pressure a little bit by having the forward spearhead, all of them could be useful though.

[Johnny Ace]

13 minutes ago, Poison said:

I like them all, I believe the one with the advanced forward would be better for worse teams to ease the pressure a little bit by having the forward spearhead, all of them could be useful though.

That's right, it's great for when teams are coming at you, if you have a striker who's fast with good mentals you can pop balls into space for him. If the opponent are sitting back, that will be more difficult to do. The team's Mentality and Tempo can help with this, if your team are acting quickly on the ball and they're forward thinking in the transition, you can hit teams before they get back into shape  

[jc577]

Nice thread mate! I've seen you mention using an AP-A on the flanks quite a bit this year, what role combinations (ST and AMR/L) would you say work well with it?

[coach vahid]

Great thread. 

[Justified]

Good guide on how you can tweak a 4-3-3 to the squad you have. In your examples it's very much based on that "industrial" midfield model which allows you to have the width on your flanks through your WB's.

[Johnny Ace]

6 hours ago, jc577 said:

Nice thread mate! I've seen you mention using an AP-A on the flanks quite a bit this year, what role combinations (ST and AMR/L) would you say work well with it?

I'd say, an Advanced Playmaker on Attack for the attacking, supporting role like I used the IF(S), so with the AF(A) and IW(S) or for the Advanced Playmaker on Support the more supporting wide player, so in the example I gave, on the left with the DLF(A) and the IF(A) on the right 

Not that I've actually used that in game, but could be a lot of fun watching those combinations  

[yuchd]

Good thread.

Usually I will play CM-At on the BBM slot for 3 reasons.

1. As during the build up BWM and DM tends to sit deeper and form a temporal double pivot. I need a midfielder to move between the lines and punish opposition's press and linkup with my front 3. Otherwise I will have to transit through the flank, which make my attack predictable and struggle against flank strong formation like 442. 

2. Inverted winger works very well with CM-At (Especially IW-S), as he provide constant underlap passing options and can usually push opposition CM/DM out of the inverted route of IW, thus isolate opposition fullback. With the help of overlapping WB-S, the left side will perform like the devastating Kvaratskhelia-Zielinski-Rui combo.

3. Increase attacking verticality especially working with dropping forward. 

I will use BBM against very strong team so that I can form a really solid midfield and hit them during the counter.

[Johnny Ace]

2 hours ago, yuchd said:

Good thread.

Usually I will play CM-At on the BBM slot for 3 reasons.

Thanks 

I was trying to steer away from the ol' CM(A) in a 4-3-3 

I like the midfield three to keep together as a unit when I let the Wingbacks fly and I think it's more useful for new players to go with the D-S-S triangle centre midfield because it'll cause them less issues 

a) there's potential the CM(A) bombs into the box too early in an attack and helps clog up the box

b) it gives the opposition a nice area of the field to punt the ball into 

If I use a CM(A) or a MEZZ(A), I'll normally use a FB on that side, a role that'll be a be more cautious and won't stay as wide as a WB and/or a DM(S) type role to help plug that gap and keep the midfield a bit more compact 

I'm more used to your way of playing with the BBM on the counter 

Nice break down though, thanks for that  

[yuchd]

10 小时前, Johnny Ace说:

Thanks 

I was trying to steer away from the ol' CM(A) in a 4-3-3 

I like the midfield three to keep together as a unit when I let the Wingbacks fly and I think it's more useful for new players to go with the D-S-S triangle centre midfield because it'll cause them less issues 

a) there's potential the CM(A) bombs into the box too early in an attack and helps clog up the box

b) it gives the opposition a nice area of the field to punt the ball into 

If I use a CM(A) or a MEZZ(A), I'll normally use a FB on that side, a role that'll be a be more cautious and won't stay as wide as a WB and/or a DM(S) type role to help plug that gap and keep the midfield a bit more compact 

I'm more used to your way of playing with the BBM on the counter 

Nice break down though, thanks for that  

Good discussion~

Normally I will set "focus play on the left flank" to drag DM more close to the left flank thus providing more cover.

By the way, how do you feel about "focus play" TI? Years ago "focus play" in football manager will increase personal mentality in focus area. But in recent versions, there's no such changes, which makes me confused of how it works nowadays. 

According to the game tutorial: "Focus play down the left flank encourages central midfielders to move closer to the left flank so passes can be focused in that area. This helps create overloads down that side of the pitch and can be used to draw more opposition players to that side of the pitch"

But without this TI, my midfielders will still move to the side with ball for support. To me the side with more support duties will form a natural overload regardless of "Focus play" TI.

[Johnny Ace]

7 minutes ago, yuchd said:

Good discussion~

Normally I will set "focus play on the left flank" to drag DM more close to the left flank thus providing more cover.

By the way, how do you feel about "focus play" TI? Years ago "focus play" in football manager will increase personal mentality in focus area. But in recent versions, there's no such changes, which makes me confused of how it works nowadays. 

According to the game tutorial: "Focus play down the left flank encourages central midfielders to move closer to the left flank so passes can be focused in that area. This helps create overloads down that side of the pitch and can be used to draw more opposition players to that side of the pitch"

But without this TI, my midfielders will still move to the side with ball for support. To me the side with more support duties will form a natural overload regardless of "Focus play" TI.

Thanks 

Yes, focuses can be used can be used very effectively in a 4-3-3 because of how aggressive you can be on the flanks. The way I understand it, it works exactly how the manual describes it, it used to affect player mentality and runs made but now I think it does just tells your team to look to make passes to area you have focused on

A nice way to use them is, is to have an IF(A) on one wing and a creative wide player or even a winger on the opposite flank  is to have your team focus down the creative flank. If you create a an overload on the focused flank, it can help draw the opposition to the side of the pitch to help free up the IF(A). Quick example

 

                         DLF(S)

W(S)                                            IF(A)

                 MEZZ(S)    CM(S)   

Then you set your focus down the left 

[bosque]

I love this thread! I'm a 433 heavy user but right now I'm having relative success using an IWB. I think this could be a good base for when you don't have good wingbacks:

                        PF(A)

W(S)                                      IF(S/A)

             CM(A)            CM(S)

IWB(S)             DM(D)          WB(S)

- Two players offering width

- Double pivot in the middle.

- 5 or 6 players on attacking phase, depending on what you want to do with the CM/WB.

[MaskedReferee]

Its a good thread this as I was just about to start one asking for help tweaking my own 4-3-3 tactic! If just played the final game of the season (at West Ham, second season) so now is a good time to adjust my tactic for the new season.

First things first, I won the league as West Ham so I'm happy and don't think my tactic needs major surgery, however, I did struggle for goals this season despite having plenty of shots most games so that is what I want to improve. First season, Scamacca scored 38 goals for me but this season he only managed 12. Having finished 4th in my first year I'm sure lots of this was to do with teams being much more defensive against me. What I've seen in games is Scamacca either being isolated upfront and not getting chances or getting the ball around the edge of the area and smashing the ball over rather than taking it into the box. In the build-up play on the break, I see runners going forward creating overloads but the player in possession on the halfway line (normally my centre forward or one of my central midfielders) is keeping hold of the ball and slowing the pace down rather than playing one of the runners in.

The only Player Instructions in my tactic are for Lucas Paqueta who is CMs with 'Take More Risks', 'Get Further Forward' and 'Move Into Channels'. He has those PIs to make him play more like a Mezzala going forward but I've found having his base role as a CMs gives by midfield better balance out of possession.

What I'm thinking from this thread:

- Should Scamacca be a PFa or DLFa now that teams are sitting deeper against me? As a PF I think he'll get into the box more than as a CF and stay closer to the defensive line ready to break or as a DLFa he might drop off more to find space rather than getting crowded out so my midfield can find him with a pass.

- Would Bowen be better as an IFs rather than IFa? I'm not getting supply in to my striker and with teams sitting deep does he not have the space to run into on an attack duty, particularly with a forward on attack and a B2B on the same side of centre mid?

- My left wing has been so hit and miss all season that I wonder if IWs is the right role. Fornals and Benrahma both play there but neither have much consistency. Would an APs be better to act as a pivot, either playing through balls to my striker or the overlapping full back?

 

[Johnny Ace]

Wow! You've done great there @MaskedReferee!

You know your tactic and players better than me but I can give some thoughts. I think your base looks great, but match by match changes might help depending on who you're playing against

18 minutes ago, MaskedReferee said:

- Should Scamacca be a PFa or DLFa now that teams are sitting deeper against me? As a PF I think he'll get into the box more than as a CF and stay closer to the defensive line ready to break or as a DLFa he might drop off more to find space rather than getting crowded out so my midfield can find him with a pass.

The CF should be fine against the deeper set teams, he'll roam around, looks for others and spearhead, he's complete. It might be the Counter Press and Much Higher Defensive line that's shoving the whole the team up and helping cause the congestion

19 minutes ago, MaskedReferee said:

- Would Bowen be better as an IFs rather than IFa? I'm not getting supply in to my striker and with teams sitting deep does he not have the space to run into on an attack duty, particularly with a forward on attack and a B2B on the same side of centre mid?

It's worth a try, on Support, Bowen will still be very aggressive but less so than if he was Attack.  Think of the IF(A) as a primary goal scorer. As mentioned above, pushing up and counter pressing might be restricting the space for your attacks, the more you move up the pitch, the deeper you push your opponents

24 minutes ago, MaskedReferee said:

- My left wing has been so hit and miss all season that I wonder if IWs is the right role. Fornals and Benrahma both play there but neither have much consistency. Would an APs be better to act as a pivot, either playing through balls to my striker or the overlapping full back?

 I think the IW is fine, it could be the TI's hampering him or maybe Paqueta getting forward too early, something to look at as he'll take a CM or DM with him and potentially restrict things  

 

[Cleon]

Finally got around to reading this today. Great thread. I'm a big fan of the creative striker variant of this shape, especially if you want the wide players to be the main scorers. 

[Mik_Fe]

31 minuti fa, Cleon ha scritto:

Finally got around to reading this today. Great thread. I'm a big fan of the creative striker variant of this shape, especially if you want the wide players to be the main scorers. 

Yes, i think the same!

but i’ve a question..

if, for example, i’ve PF-att and two IW-So in the tactic base, if i change players during the match, i put in the pitch a creative forward and other two wide players with more attacking attribute, i change PF-Att in DLF-So (or F9) and the wide players into IF-att, the fluidity of squad obviusly changes…

you put “more creativity” in team instruction to return on your fluid squad (for example) or you remain in flexible?

[Johnny Ace]

Thank you @Cleon It's probably the most fun and rewarding type to go for 

[Cleon]

4 minutes ago, Mik_Fe said:

Yes, i think the same!

but i’ve a question..

if, for example, i’ve PF-att and two IW-So in the tactic base, if i change players during the match, i put in the pitch a creative forward and other two wide players with more attacking attribute, i change PF-Att in DLF-So (or F9) and the wide players into IF-att, the fluidity of squad obviusly changes…

you put “more creativity” in team instruction to return on your fluid squad (for example) or you remain in flexible?

No that doesn't really matter. The fluid/flexible tags is more for the AI. All that matters for the human user is the players role and duties give you want you want. You could ask players to be more expressive if you really wanted. It all depends on what you want. 

[Mik_Fe]

6 minuti fa, Cleon ha scritto:

No, non importa davvero. I tag fluidi/flessibili sono più per l'IA. Tutto ciò che conta per l'utente umano è il ruolo e i doveri dei giocatori che ti danno quello che vuoi. Potresti chiedere ai giocatori di essere più espressivi se volessi davvero. Tutto dipende da quello che vuoi.

Ok, infact i want that my players are fluid in the pitch, not more fluid, beacuse is too much and I need very good players with good mental skill to do it. 

so, it possible to click or not.. it depend.. but i believe in what you say, it depend to what you watch in the pitch and who is your opponent!

great thread!

[Johnny Ace]

That little tag on your tactic's screen doesn't mean anything now @Mik_Fe it just changes with the amount of Support Duties you use

If your attacking players have good mental attributes (Off the ball, Decisions, Anticipation etc) compared to the rest of the league, Be More Expressive is a good TI to use to bring more fluidity and movement. Roam from position is a good PI if you have a stand out player  

[Mik_Fe]

7 minuti fa, Johnny Ace ha scritto:

Quel piccolo tag sullo schermo della tua tattica non significa nulla ora@Mik_Fecambia solo con la quantità di doveri di supporto che usi

Se i tuoi giocatori attaccanti hanno buoni attributi mentali (Fuori dalla palla, Decisioni, Anticipazione ecc.) rispetto al resto del campionato, Be More Expressive è un buon TI da usare per portare più fluidità e movimento. Roam dalla posizione è un buon PI se hai un giocatore di spicco 

so you are from the school “adapt tactics to players” compared to “players to tactics”??
😅

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, Mik_Fe said:

so you are from the school “adapt tactics to players” compared to “players to tactics”??
😅

Bit of both I'd say, then look to recruit players 

[Johnny Ace]

This time, lets have a look at a 4-3-3 DM without the Wingbacks

This is sort of from my own save, the Youth Academy Challenge, basically we were left without wingback options and had some great options in centre midfield 

Starting from the back, two straight forward Central Defenders on Defend, there's no problem with it but I don't think there's a great need to use BPDs when they have the DM as an "outlet" 

Two Fullbacks, one Support, one Attack 

Now, my great midfield options include a Mezzala, a fantastic role in a 4-3-3. Looking at his Personal Instructions, its a role you're telling to get forward, look to get on the end of and create attacks in the final third

 

I spoke earlier on about if one of the 8's burst forward, it can create gaps and disjoin in your midfield 3, I'm really not a fan of when that happens so I like to use a DM on a higher mentality to "plug the gap"

As we're now using Fullbacks instead of Wingbacks, I feel a lot safer doing this as Full backs will not be surging forward and looking to carry the ball, they won't be so wide. Full Backs may tuck in, hold up the ball and be more likely to look for players infield, they help to keep the team as a tighter unit. The Defensive Midfielder on Support will now be a bit more forward thinking with his pass choice so attacks can be built from deep a little more effectively 

 

The Mezzala will be looking to make runs into the outer inside channel, I don't particularly want my left sided wide attacker looking to come infield, I want him providing some width on the left side and keeping the opposition full back over there occuppied 

On the right hand side, my creator/scorer role so an Inside Forward on Support will provide just that. We do lack width on the right hand side at times, but the FB and IF do a pretty good job with that between them  

Then upfront, down to my personnel and because there's a lot going around him, a Poacher here will do the job to do little else but sniff out the chances and finish them off. I don't need him dropping deep, roaming, creating or anything else but score 

  

With fullbacks, you can keep the ball better, they're not bombing forward, dribbling wide and crossing all the time, the FB's PIs are so simple, they're great for possession based tactics 

Because we've cut the offensive threat from our Wingbacks, we ask one one the centre mids to break forward. He supports the Poacher from the left, the IF supports the Poacher from his right, we still have plenty of other roles to offer supply and score goals. It's breathtaking when you're on the attack and all of a sudden your FullBack on Attack pops up into space on the edge of the area and rifles one in   

Very straight forward and logical, again, nothing ground breaking here but for people that are new to game and are struggling, sometimes stripping back to the basics can help figure things out 

[eXistenZ]

This comes right on time, as in my new long term save ive settled on the 433 (mainly because a lack of strikers for a newly promoted VN side). Decided to go with board objectives, which were high pressing high possession football. Which I kinda like as it reminds me of the occasional fifa game with friends where I went with the principle "if they dont have the bal they cant score"

Im having decent results with this (given how much of an uncoordinated mess the transfers were, basicly get who you can and I tend to instant result half of the time), but there are these games where i have 65+ possession and nothing happens up front. Judging from your posts, i should push the fullbacks higher up?

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by eXistenZ

[Johnny Ace]

50 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

Judging from your posts, i should push the fullbacks higher up?

How did you figure that? 

I probably would with a Target Man but a) the TM better be 6' 6 and b) I wouldn't have a CM on Attack in the midfield, the thread covers all of that but that's how I play 

[eXistenZ]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

How did you figure that? 

I probably would with a Target Man but a) the TM better be 6' 6 and b) I wouldn't have a CM on Attack in the midfield, the thread covers all of that but that's how I play 

 

I see you usually use wingsbacks. Arent they higher up than fullbacks by default?

My striker is pretty tall and doesnt have the best passing to be a dlf/creator.

[Johnny Ace]

30 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

I see you usually use wingsbacks. Arent they higher up than fullbacks by default?

Yes, but my midfield 3 was very different, I went into a bit of detail about of how I put together my midfield roles depending on if I'm using Wingbacks or Fullbacks. Your midfield 3 is the complete opposite to how I put mine together  

[eXistenZ]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

Yes, but my midfield 3 was very different, I went into a bit of detail about of how I put together my midfield roles depending on if I'm using Wingbacks or Fullbacks. Your midfield 3 is the complete opposite to how I put mine together  

So to solve my predicament you would push the DM to support?

Ive tried mezzala but wasnt succesfull

[Johnny Ace]

13 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

So to solve my predicament you would push the DM to support?

Ive tried mezzala but wasnt succesfull

I prefer to yeah, with a CM(A) it should be fine too. If I don't to the DM(S) I notice the gap with 5 minutes and it drives me nuts 

[Mutumba]

I might be getting ahead a bit here but how about the roles of Regista and RPM? They are both suport roles, but with a lot more freedom I suppose, so would they still slot nicely into a midfield 3 without leaving the lone DM? 

 

BBM-s BWM-s

Regista

 

RPM-s BWM-s

DM-d

[Johnny Ace]

12 minutes ago, Mutumba said:

I might be getting ahead a bit here but how about the roles of Regista and RPM? They are both suport roles, but with a lot more freedom I suppose, so would they still slot nicely into a midfield 3 without leaving the lone DM? 

 

BBM-s BWM-s

Regista

 

RPM-s BWM-s

DM-d

A Regista is an interesting one and not one I've ever used too much. Because it's such a fancy role, I'd probably go really simple in front of him to sort of act as a screen, probably just a BMW(S) and CM(S) and take it from there. I wouldn't want another roaming or "get forward" kind of role but it all depends on the players you have, if you have a quality squad for the league you're in, you can get away with more  

[JoOSTAR]

9 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

This time, lets have a look at a 4-3-3 DM without the Wingbacks

This is sort of from my own save, the Youth Academy Challenge, basically we were left without wingback options and had some great options in centre midfield 

Starting from the back, two straight forward Central Defenders on Defend, there's no problem with it but I don't think there's a great need to use BPDs when they have the DM as an "outlet" 

Two Fullbacks, one Support, one Attack 

Now, my great midfield options include a Mezzala, a fantastic role in a 4-3-3. Looking at his Personal Instructions, its a role you're telling to get forward, look to get on the end of and create attacks in the final third

 

I spoke earlier on about if one of the 8's burst forward, it can create gaps and disjoin in your midfield 3, I'm really not a fan of when that happens so I like to use a DM on a higher mentality to "plug the gap"

As we're now using Fullbacks instead of Wingbacks, I feel a lot safer doing this as Full backs will not be surging forward and looking to carry the ball, they won't be so wide. Full Backs may tuck in, hold up the ball and be more likely to look for players infield, they help to keep the team as a tighter unit. The Defensive Midfielder on Support will now be a bit more forward thinking with his pass choice so attacks can be built from deep a little more effectively 

 

The Mezzala will be looking to make runs into the outer inside channel, I don't particularly want my left sided wide attacker looking to come infield, I want him providing some width on the left side and keeping the opposition full back over there occuppied 

On the right hand side, my creator/scorer role so an Inside Forward on Support will provide just that. We do lack width on the right hand side at times, but the FB and IF do a pretty good job with that between them  

Then upfront, down to my personnel and because there's a lot going around him, a Poacher here will do the job to do little else but sniff out the chances and finish them off. I don't need him dropping deep, roaming, creating or anything else but score 

  

With fullbacks, you can keep the ball better, they're not bombing forward, dribbling wide and crossing all the time, the FB's PIs are so simple, they're great for possession based tactics 

Because we've cut the offensive threat from our Wingbacks, we ask one one the centre mids to break forward. He supports the Poacher from the left, the IF supports the Poacher from his right, we still have plenty of other roles to offer supply and score goals. It's breathtaking when you're on the attack and all of a sudden your FullBack on Attack pops up into space on the edge of the area and rifles one in   

Very straight forward and logical, again, nothing ground breaking here but for people that are new to game and are struggling, sometimes stripping back to the basics can help figure things out 

Which are the Team Instructions that you use for this one?

[Johnny Ace]

21 minutes ago, JoOSTAR said:

Which are the Team Instructions that you use for this one?

 

On 02/04/2023 at 08:59, Johnny Ace said:

I’m not going to include Team Instructions, they’re not intended as Plug and Play or anything, they’re not magic or anything fancy, just straight forward simple 4-3-3’s, feel free to use the ideas or use them as a base, the idea is they’re nice and balanced and follow simple logic

Only joking, I don't use many to be honest, I play on Balanced/ Positive, Low Crosses because all my strikers are short, Play out of defence and slightly Narrow. Then Counter and Trigger More Often

You can use whatever you like though based on the team you're managing, here I didn't play out from the back for years because my central defenders were god awful on the ball  

[Kloppy]

Good stuff. 

[Tsuru]

Hi Johnny. This thread is quality  

Your ideas will help me on building a playing system, and as we are on Vanarama National League South, I have been considering using your last suggestion, that is, fullbacks instead of wingbacks as on both sides they are not the best players ever 

Also because my system uses more than one formation and two of them are without a DM, so fullbacks make much more sense.

Regarding your last suggestion (Mez-S, CM-S and DM-S), do you think that an Inverted Winger could be a good option on the left instead of the traditional Winger?

[Johnny Ace]

6 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Hi Johnny. This thread is quality  

Your ideas will help me on building a playing system, and as we are on Vanarama National League South, I have been considering using your last suggestion, that is, fullbacks instead of wingbacks as on both sides they are not the best players ever 

Also because my system uses more than one formation and two of them are without a DM, so fullbacks make much more sense.

Regarding your last suggestion (Mez-S, CM-S and DM-S), do you think that an Inverted Winger could be a good option on the left instead of the traditional Winger?

Thanks mate 

I used pretty much that set up to win the Bulgarian 2nd division, youth only so it's very usable for lower league teams. Like you, I was struggling for Wingbacks and fed up with retraining Wingers  

An Inverted Winger will be fine, I do sometimes play a right footed winger on the left so he's a bit of an in-between, but try it out and tweak as you play  

[rootcoors]

Really enjoyed reading your work in here @Johnny Ace. Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

[Johnny Ace]

Thank you @rootcoors 

[crusadertsar]

@Johnny Ace Great series! It's really giving me temptation to give 4-3-3 a try again 

[Johnny Ace]

8 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@Johnny Ace Great series! It's really giving me temptation to give 4-3-3 a try again 

Cheers mate! The 4-3-3 seems a bit boring for you! 

[crusadertsar]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Cheers mate! The 4-3-3 seems a bit boring for you! 

And yet I seem to come back to it every year! Just something wholesome about putting players in this formation. Speaks of a golden bygone era to me.

[Lambo95]

Really good thread, some interesting ideas that I wouldn’t necessarily have thought to try. With my Brescia side my 433 has 

 

A(d)

CM(a)-BBM(s)

Tried changing to DM(s) and I’ve noticed that there’s less space in midfield when I lose the ball and I get countered less. Only a small sample size but it looks promising

 

[Chiravilla]

On 10/04/2023 at 10:57, Johnny Ace said:

This time, lets have a look at a 4-3-3 DM without the Wingbacks

This is sort of from my own save, the Youth Academy Challenge, basically we were left without wingback options and had some great options in centre midfield 

Starting from the back, two straight forward Central Defenders on Defend, there's no problem with it but I don't think there's a great need to use BPDs when they have the DM as an "outlet" 

Two Fullbacks, one Support, one Attack 

Now, my great midfield options include a Mezzala, a fantastic role in a 4-3-3. Looking at his Personal Instructions, its a role you're telling to get forward, look to get on the end of and create attacks in the final third

 

I spoke earlier on about if one of the 8's burst forward, it can create gaps and disjoin in your midfield 3, I'm really not a fan of when that happens so I like to use a DM on a higher mentality to "plug the gap"

As we're now using Fullbacks instead of Wingbacks, I feel a lot safer doing this as Full backs will not be surging forward and looking to carry the ball, they won't be so wide. Full Backs may tuck in, hold up the ball and be more likely to look for players infield, they help to keep the team as a tighter unit. The Defensive Midfielder on Support will now be a bit more forward thinking with his pass choice so attacks can be built from deep a little more effectively 

 

The Mezzala will be looking to make runs into the outer inside channel, I don't particularly want my left sided wide attacker looking to come infield, I want him providing some width on the left side and keeping the opposition full back over there occuppied 

On the right hand side, my creator/scorer role so an Inside Forward on Support will provide just that. We do lack width on the right hand side at times, but the FB and IF do a pretty good job with that between them  

Then upfront, down to my personnel and because there's a lot going around him, a Poacher here will do the job to do little else but sniff out the chances and finish them off. I don't need him dropping deep, roaming, creating or anything else but score 

  

With fullbacks, you can keep the ball better, they're not bombing forward, dribbling wide and crossing all the time, the FB's PIs are so simple, they're great for possession based tactics 

Because we've cut the offensive threat from our Wingbacks, we ask one one the centre mids to break forward. He supports the Poacher from the left, the IF supports the Poacher from his right, we still have plenty of other roles to offer supply and score goals. It's breathtaking when you're on the attack and all of a sudden your FullBack on Attack pops up into space on the edge of the area and rifles one in   

Very straight forward and logical, again, nothing ground breaking here but for people that are new to game and are struggling, sometimes stripping back to the basics can help figure things out 

Hi Jonny, thank you for this topic! I'm a big fan of simple solutions, after years of making FM more complicated than necessary.

Does your CM have "Hold position" set in PI's if DM is on support duty and fills the Mezalla gap?

[Cleon]

It really is a great thread

Edited April 14, 2023 by Cleon

[Johnny Ace]

Keep it on topic please @BrunoG39 and there's no need to have a dig at others

12 hours ago, Chiravilla said:

Hi Jonny, thank you for this topic! I'm a big fan of simple solutions, after years of making FM more complicated than necessary.

Does your CM have "Hold position" set in PI's if DM is on support duty and fills the Mezalla gap?

I don't give him that PI, I still want him to play as an 8 in midfield but there's nothing wrong with if it you wanted to. You could alternately use a more defensive type player attribute wise here rather than change the role or use PIs

 

[Justified]

On 10/04/2023 at 09:57, Johnny Ace said:

Very straight forward and logical, again, nothing ground breaking here but for people that are new to game and are struggling, sometimes stripping back to the basics can help figure things out 

I think this is a very good point and not very often highlighted. I never play with more then 6-7 TI's, sometimes I only have 4-5 selected and I find that the best way to play the game. I can see when someone has like 10-15 selected why they could potentially work but you need to know what you're doing to get it right. Usually in those circumstances, when it goes wrong it goes terribly wrong and you end up trying to plug holes in a sinking ship.

[HanziZoloman]

Great read @Johnny Ace always helpful! I’m curious how my 433 in the youth challenge will work out. Sadly the friendly matches are not a big forecast.

I set up with three DM to pack people in front of my back four and put all striker in AM to give a compact shape.

It doesn’t work out well … need to redesign. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[PAFC]

Really appreciate this thread, shines a light in the labyrinth of of a world than can appear complicated.

The principles explained here turned my save from two board meetings where I had to beg for another month to now being top of the league, over two seasons of course, be patient, no quick fix, just logic that eventually will be borne out in both the style of play (attractive) and results.

Thank you @Johnny Ace

[HanziZoloman]

@Johnny Ace did you used this formation at the Beginning of the youth challenge when your players were just awful like 4 marking or 3 passing?