Simple crafting of a 4-3-3 DM

[Cloud9]

57 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Hey guys,

do you change your tactics after a while or after some games? 

If so, what kind of changes do you address?

Your data hub is the best way to see what needs tweaking, either through recruitment, training or tactical changes. 

I'm running a mid block counter attack style so basically I'm seeing that everything is running smoothly with the tactics. The worrying part is the relatively low tackles won %, which I then check to the attributes of my midfielders (because midblock). Seeing that their tackling ability isn't fantastic, I put them on BWM training and I'll look for a bit higher in that department when I'm upgrading. 

Low blocks per games and extremely low conceded mean I'm not having to defend past the midfield too often, so their mental stats (which I prioritized), are more than compensating for the weakness as things stand (particularly with the numbers of times they're getting stuck in and intercepting the ball).

I'm a big fan of the player analytics part of the data hub, it will tell you who is wasteful with chances, etc. You can then go into your tactic and make direct changes to those players PIs.

 

It will be dependent on what your tactic is supposed to be good at, compared to what your players should be good at and then to how both are actually performing. If you see something irregular, try to figure out where you can make the tactical changes.

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Cloud9

[jc577]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

'm running a mid block counter attack style so basically I'm seeing that everything is running smoothly with the tactics.

Interesting stuff! I've been trying to build my mid block counter system, have you posted an insight into the tactic on here at all? Would love some inspo/guidance!

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, jc577 said:

Interesting stuff! I've been trying to build my mid block counter system, have you posted an insight into the tactic on here at all? Would love some inspo/guidance!

System I've been using is over here in this thread:

 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Cloud9:

Your data hub is the best way to see what needs tweaking, either through recruitment, training or tactical changes. 

Thanks @Cloud9 that’s helpful. I‘ll dig into it. I‘m also playing a midblock with counter attack. 
@all: Does it seem right to play a counter attacking midblock with a TFa upfront? My striker is not the fastest (7acc/ 7pac in Vanarama NS) but my wingers are pacey. Maybe playing for control possession seems better, with short passes and low tempo (?) my midfielders are decent passers.

Just read the recommended thread above, there is much insight! Thanks

Edited May 20, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Cloud9]

17 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thanks @Cloud9 that’s helpful. I‘ll dig into it. I‘m also playing a midblock with counter attack. 
@all: Does it seem right to play a counter attacking midblock with a TFa upfront? My striker is not the fastest (7acc/ 7pac in Vanarama NS) but my wingers are pacey. Maybe playing for control possession seems better, with short passes and low tempo (?) my midfielders are decent passers.

Just read the recommended thread above, there is much insight! Thanks

If it's a solo TF the attack role is fine, but I'd avoid it in a mid block. He's so far from goal that you might struggle to get him involved, and without pace to threaten their backline they can keep pushing forward. Technically you can do this with the wide players, but it's why I feel a little pigeon holed into the AF attack in a midblock. They'll just sit on the defenders shoulder, and having one player dedicated to do that is really valuable if you're waiting to break.

I use the TF as an offensive reference point, mostly to knock down the ball to the quicker players on attack roles around him. He's only finishing the moves himself if the attack slows down. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Cloud9

[KlaaZ]

Might as well throw in my problems here. I'm currently in the Ligue 2 and was doing very well in the first half of the season but we've completely lost the plot recently, losing five out of our last ten games. Main problem is that we're toothless without the ball, pressing but not challenging and being easily outplayed, and that we keep losing possession in dangerous areas. I'm not sure what to do, the setup looks logical..

I've tried dropping the pressing intensity but then the opposition just gets all the time of the world to play us off the pitch. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by KlaaZ

[HanziZoloman]

Hey @KlaaZ what you described happens in my save very often, solid start and half way through the losses come. I‘ve read somewhere here that AI is adopting to your playing style and/ or your reputation. When you have a solid position in the league after the first months opponents Beginn to play differently and we have to adopt to the new situation as well. 
Just now I had 7 losses in a row, with penalties in the last minutes and red cards in the first. That keeps the game challenging. 
your setup looks good (If I may say so, I’m no real expert) but you play with a high tempo on counter, could be that your AP and IW play to similar with the ball. 
Against the ball you have to check how the opposition takes you under pressure. Maybe the opponents outplay you with short passes and your men run around like chicken. Well then more press won’t do it and you could try to develop a more balanced system which soaks the pressure more. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[KlaaZ]

3 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Hey @KlaaZ what you described happens in my save very often, solid start and half way through the losses come. I‘ve read somewhere here that AI is adopting to your playing style and/ or your reputation. When you have a solid position in the league after the first months opponents Beginn to play differently and we have to adopt to the new situation as well. 
Just now I had 7 losses in a row, with penalties in the last minutes and red cards in the first. That keeps the game challenging. 
your setup looks good (If I may say so, I’m no real expert) but you play with a high tempo on counter, could be that your AP and IW play to similar with the ball. 
Against the ball you have to check how the opposition takes you under pressure. Maybe the opponents outplay you with short passes and your men run around like chicken. Well then more press won’t do it and you could try to develop a more balanced system which soaks the pressure more. 

Cheers! I'll get back to this in more detail later tonight as I actually want to make something work with a DLF and a regista. I do know about the AI's adaptation to results and rep increase but I don't feel like it's a matter of them sitting deeper. 🙂

[JimbobWWFC]

I find that I have a big urge to change tactics because things often seem to go stale (or that's the way it seems). Often opposition sides may get used to how you play and figure out how to counter it.

Maybe I still can't spot the right details after all these years. Because to me it just seems that for a few matches the tactics work perfectly, then a few matches later they just don't. I understand it is never an exact science, but my problem is that I don't see anything that shows why it doesn't work. That is definitely my biggest struggle with the game.

On the whole, things are going well and I really shouldn't complain. But i frustrate myself when I don't see what has changed from one game to the next... to me it just looks like much poorer passes, my forwards forget how to shoot and my defenders just don't win any tackles.

 

This then leads to a cycle of changing tactics, doing well for 5 games, then things going south again

[Johnny Ace]

Start a thread then @JimbobWWFC with as much detail and info as you can 

[Cloud9]

On 21/05/2023 at 11:34, KlaaZ said:

Might as well throw in my problems here. I'm currently in the Ligue 2 and was doing very well in the first half of the season but we've completely lost the plot recently, losing five out of our last ten games. Main problem is that we're toothless without the ball, pressing but not challenging and being easily outplayed, and that we keep losing possession in dangerous areas. I'm not sure what to do, the setup looks logical..

I've tried dropping the pressing intensity but then the opposition just gets all the time of the world to play us off the pitch. 

If your form drops off it could be tactical, but in my experience a mid season dip is more likely from a poor preseason/not rotating the squad properly. To rotate better, you can put injury risk on and don't play players when they're in the red.

• Tactically no one in your defensive third is capable of progressing the ball outside of the wingback. a BPD could go a long way or a more progressive DM. 
• BWM as a solo DM can be tricky, and requires a really high quality player to pull it off. Otherwise you might go with a simple DM(d) for more positional structure. 
• Ticking on pass into space could help you create more chances, or adding "take more risks" to several technical players could also do the trick. 

[JimbobWWFC]

On 25/05/2023 at 18:55, Johnny Ace said:

Start a thread then @JimbobWWFC with as much detail and info as you can 

Apologies, I didn't mean to drag the conversation away from the point of the thread. After I posted about how happy I was with the help from this thread, I noticed someone had posted the below message.

On 19/05/2023 at 22:36, HanziZoloman said:

Hey guys,

do you change your tactics after a while or after some games? 

If so, what kind of changes do you address?

By the time I was able to respond, I hadn't noticed others had moved the conversation along in the meantime! 

[HanziZoloman]

Am 25.5.2023 um 19:22 schrieb JimbobWWFC:

Maybe I still can't spot the right details after all these years. Because to me it just seems that for a few matches the tactics work perfectly, then a few matches later they just don't. I understand it is never an exact science, but my problem is that I don't see anything that shows why it doesn't work. That is definitely my biggest struggle with the game.

On the whole, things are going well and I really shouldn't complain. But i frustrate myself when I don't see what has changed from one game to the next... to me it just looks like much poorer passes, my forwards forget how to shoot and my defenders just don't win any tackles.

You‘re not the only one and it happens with me as well! Thank you for responding. 
 

thanks @Cloud9 your response is very helpful 

Edited May 27, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos]

So after a long time away from my old trusted 433, this thread has brought me back in! Really enjoyed reading your breakdown and reasoning of 433 variations @Johnny Ace, it reignited a spark and led me to start afresh and abandon the 4231 I'd been messing about with for a while.

Fancying a bit of a new challenge, I holidayed until the first Premier League manager was sacked and took that job. This being Leicester, at the end of October, rock bottom of the table. After analyzing the squad and checking in with the team comparison, I find we are above average in work rate, teamwork and passing, so this will give me the base for TI. That comparison, along with what I had at my disposal, as well as what I'd read in this thread, eventually lead me to this base

The initial version of this tactic had the DM as a BWM, which I felt was leaving too many gaps and not offering enough stability, so after reading through the thread I took on board advice from @Cloud9 which has helped hugely

On 26/05/2023 at 18:01, Cloud9 said:

BWM as a solo DM can be tricky, and requires a really high quality player to pull it off. Otherwise you might go with a simple DM(d) for more positional structure.

The CM(a) was previously AP(a), but even though the middle two looked fairly reliable, I felt there wasn't enough threat coming from there. I now have goals coming from there (Tielemans finally finding some form in that position!) and not having to rely solely on the front three. 

The only changes I make is dropping the LOE and DL down a notch, coupled with counter-press off, and counter on against bigger teams. As good as my lads are at grafting and pressing high, the better teams always find a way around the press and leave you exposed.

Anyway, results have been good, well on the way to Premier League mid table safety.

Thanks to all that made this thread great, and reignited my love of a good old 433

[Johnny Ace]

37 minutes ago, TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos said:

 

The initial version of this tactic had the DM as a BWM, which I felt was leaving too many gaps and not offering enough stability

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend a BWM in the DM (no 6) position in a base 4-3-3 DM. If he goes chasing down, he can easily leave you exposed, first and foremost I look to this position for stability

I'll happily use a BWM in CM (no 8) to snuff out the opposition's attacks early on, at least if he's played through, you have the DM behind him 

[pilmalm]

Thanks @Johnny Ace for a fantastic thread. Gave me a good understanding of the 4-3-3 with the different midfield-roles and how to make the best out of the team at your disposal. 

A question tho. What do you think about this setup with my Auxerre-team start of season 3? 

 

[Lasson]

2 hours ago, pilmalm said:

Thanks @Johnny Ace for a fantastic thread. Gave me a good understanding of the 4-3-3 with the different midfield-roles and how to make the best out of the team at your disposal. 

A question tho. What do you think about this setup with my Auxerre-team start of season 3? 

 

I would not hestitate to switch your FBs to a WBs as you need someone to hold the width on the left with the IFs supporting the striker.

[pilmalm]

49 minutes ago, Lasson said:

I would not hestitate to switch your FBs to a WBs as you need someone to hold the width on the left with the IFs supporting the striker.

Thanks!

[Johnny Ace]

17 hours ago, pilmalm said:

Thanks @Johnny Ace for a fantastic thread. Gave me a good understanding of the 4-3-3 with the different midfield-roles and how to make the best out of the team at your disposal. 

A question tho. What do you think about this setup with my Auxerre-team start of season 3? 

Looks great to me, like mentioned, even with the DM(S) I think you'll be alright to go with a WingBack on the left 

[HanziZoloman]

Am 3.6.2023 um 10:48 schrieb TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos:

eventually lead me to this base

Why did you go with a WBd? 

[TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos]

On 05/06/2023 at 20:56, HanziZoloman said:

Why did you go with a WBd? 

Honestly just on the fact that Leicester were bottom of the table when I took over, and I didn't want to be too adventurous on both flanks! With the left side on attack duty, I was hoping for some stabilty from the other side.

[bbuullddoogg]

Great thread! Would anyone intelligent be able to let me know if they recommend any changes to my 4-3-3? Thank you so much to anyone who takes the time to respond.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb bbuullddoogg:

Great thread! Would anyone intelligent be able to let me know if they recommend any changes to my 4-3-3? Thank you so much to anyone who takes the time to respond.

Looks good I‘d say, how are results?

[Johnny Ace]

15 hours ago, bbuullddoogg said:

Great thread! Would anyone intelligent be able to let me know if they recommend any changes to my 4-3-3? Thank you so much to anyone who takes the time to respond.

Personally, I'm not a fan but that isn't to say it's not a good setup

It's the midfield 3 that bothers me and I did cover it. I talked about using Wingbacks, an ultra aggressive full back role and using a more conservative midfield or going with an adventurous midfield and more conservative backs to keep some balance

DM(D) Hold Position, DLP Hold Position, CM(A) Get Further Forward, maybe it's my FM OCP but it looks disjointed. If one of my 8's is bombing forward, I like the 6 to be able to get a little further forward where here you're asking the 2nd 8 and the 6 to hold position. So, if you hit any problems, these would be the first things I would look at 

I have "crafted" a 4-3-3 DM based of one I used last year in Portugal with a Mezz(A), it's ultra simple. I was planning on adding a few more setups here and talking through them but haven't had the chance to yet

[TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos]

*update on Leicester 433 end of season*

 

From bottom at the start of November, to a last day European place chance. Having secured at least 8th place with a game to go, I needed a win and results to go my way for a European spot. All was looking well until Brentford drew with City in the last minute of extra time! Should have been a simpler finish to the season, but we hit a slight dip in form with a few draws and a loss in the last 6 games

Really enjoyed my foray back into the 433 formation, with some beautiful football played at times! Especially Maddison and Daka, who both shone in this system. My tactic remained fairly consistent throughout

No PI at all, and with only a few TI changes on a game by game basis, as mentioned in a previous post

On 03/06/2023 at 09:48, TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos said:

The only changes I make is dropping the LOE and DL down a notch, coupled with counter-press off, and counter on against bigger teams. As good as my lads are at grafting and pressing high, the better teams always find a way around the press and leave you exposed.

Anyway, onto next season. Some deadwood to shift, and one or two first team upgrades to come in. Lets go! 

[KlaaZ]

Another month with six games played where we did well only to falter right at the end. We secured an excellent and well deserved draw in Turin, only to throw it away at home when they were lethal, scoring their only three shots on target. We have serious issues up front, having failed to find the back of the net in three out of our four last games. Tissier hasn't scored for nine or ten now.

Maybe I'm expecting too much, but with Tissier and Apaza I have two world class players up front and Boussouf on the right is also very good. But I just can't get them going right now. Apaza has one goal and three assists in 21 games, Tissier seven and six. But I think the problem is to be found somewhere in the buildup as they're performing according to their xG stats, which are way too low.

[KlaaZ]

EDIT: Wrong thread.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by KlaaZ

[Chlorice10]

@Johnny Ace any reason not including playmaker role in any of the 3 midfielder?  If you were to play any playmaker in the formation, which one will you choose and why ? 

[Johnny Ace]

3 hours ago, Chlorice10 said:

@Johnny Ace any reason not including playmaker role in any of the 3 midfielder?  If you were to play any playmaker in the formation, which one will you choose and why ? 

I like a DLP in the DM slot or an AP in the CM strata or out wide, I just didn't use any for the sake of simplicity 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Johnny Ace:

I like a DLP in the DM slot or an AP in the CM strata or out wide, I just didn't use any for the sake of simplicity 

Out of curiosity, when do you tend to play with an AP or with a DLP?

Let me guess: A DLP When you want someone to fire longballs from the back to fast wingers or strikers, when you play on the counter (?) Or build up play from the back.

An AP when the ball gets into opponents side quickly and you have a capable player dribbling and passing up front. Like when you play counterpress and have more possession (?)

or all wrong. 

[Johnny Ace]

11 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Out of curiosity, when do you tend to play with an AP or with a DLP?

Let me guess: A DLP When you want someone to fire longballs from the back to fast wingers or strikers, when you play on the counter (?) Or build up play from the back.

An AP when the ball gets into opponents side quickly and you have a capable player dribbling and passing up front. Like when you play counterpress and have more possession (?)

or all wrong. 

Yeah, right kind of thinking  An AP(S) in CM doesn't have dribbling hard coded and I've studied the role's movement compared to a CM, apart the role having playmaker tendencies it's no more "advanced" than a CM. I think the naming of the role is vs the DLP, so the AP will playmake in more advanced areas compared to a DLP.

So yeah, a DLP can be like how you describe or a nice recycling option when you're playing further up the pitch. An AP(S) will just act further up the pitch, sort of between the halfway line and edge of the penalty area looking to play in the attacking players    

[Captain_T]

My main problem in a 433 is, how to set up my tactic to bring my central midfielders in good positions to produce assists and goals.

I Need more variety in goalscoring. My Main scorers are my striker and my inside forward attack. That‘s not a bad thing , but if they are not scoring, I‘m lost.

So I need more scoring from my midfielders from time to time. Usually I‘m playing with  DM(d), BBM and CM(S).

 

Any general Ideas?

 

Best regards!

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, Captain_T said:

Any general Ideas?

If you're getting goals from the guys up top, I wouldn't worry about the midfield scoring to be honest. Nothing wrong with your roles so it's probably a case of a) having one of them take set pieces b) upgrading who you have 

[LasseT95]

I need some help with my 4-3-3. Almost all my players are new for this season, so their tactic knowledge and all that stuff may be at 80%. There is a couple of positions that works well and then i have some roles that sucks with 6.5 ratings every game.
My striker rarely gets chances, my CM-A always have under 6.5, my Ball-playing CB doesn't do much and both my wings are also pretty.
My start have been lucky with a 4-2 cup win, 1-0 win, a draw with 3 shots on goal and a 2-0 win on 2 set pieces with under 1 xg

Do you see any roles or instructions i need to change? I want my striker to get more chances, my wingback to provide width, my CM-a to just be better. Does a CM-a work well with a inverted winger and advanced forward or do i have to use a DLF-a? or maybe change my CM-A to a mezzala or something else? Give me your best advice if you can see if anything is wrong. Thanks

[HanziZoloman]

I‘m not a professor of that game but I notice missing width on the left side. The IFa is cutting inside in chase of goals the AF pushing the defenders and sitting on their shoulders which should work fine. Now if you‘d a wide player on the left, the opponents would have more issues to deal with. The opponents FB could assist in defending but with a WBs on your left he‘d struggle with that. 
The right side should work well together the IWs will play deep balls into the IFa and AF the WBa will cross (you could add cross to far post to address especially the IFa).

For solidity in Defense you should watch if the DLP is doing a good job in defending and providing, if you need more security switch to DMd and add more risky passes. If he is marked out of the game or pressed hard you could do the same, if he‘s free to play a DLPd should be just right. The MCa could be an issue being to far ahead when play is changing but is a goal scorer as well. I‘d think you have your scorers in IF and AF position, I‘d change the MC to support and if he‘s a decent passer I‘d add take more risks.

[Johnny Ace]

10 hours ago, LasseT95 said:

Give me your best advice if you can see if anything is wrong. Thanks

I'd read this thread from the beginning and simplify 

Throwing a Mezzela at the tactic, isn't going to fix it 

Start at the back and think what these roles will be looking to do, all looks fine me. The role that stands out is the WB(A), that along with the CWB and IWB on Attack are the most attacking/aggressive roles available in the game in that position. The WB on Attack will stay wide, run on the ball every chance he gets and get up the pitch as much and as often as he can to put crosses in 

The DLP on D is fine

Then onto the midfield. The CM(A), along with the MEZZ(A) is the most attacking/ aggressive midfield role available, he's on the right hand side of midfield. He'll be similar, he'll look to break forward any chance he gets, all about getting into the box and to score, So having the CM on Attack will a) dis-join the midfield b) leave you open on the right hand side c) throw more bodies forward than you need 

Then up top, the IF(A) again, along with the RMD, the most attacking/aggressive role available combined with an attacking/aggressive striker role, it's overkill in my opinion, chose one of those guys to be the primary goalscorer and build your roles around him to help supply him with chances.

Overall, the more roles you ask to get further forward and give a higher mentality too, the more players you try and throw into the opposition's defensive third, which leads to the opposition sending more players back to defend and clogging up the final third 

I think the easiest way to simplify your roles would be to change CM(A) to CM(S) and IF(A) to IF(S) then it'll be way more balanced all around   The IF(S) is less concerned with scoring and more about creating chances, he'll rush the box less often and stay deeper in build up, the same with the CM, he'll look to stay behind the ball more and create for players ahead of him rather than getting ahead of play and scoring  

[LasseT95]

40 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Overall, the more roles you ask to get further forward and give a higher mentality too, the more players you try and throw into the opposition's defensive third, which leads to the opposition sending more players back to defend and clogging up the final third 

I think the easiest way to simplify your roles would be to change CM(A) to CM(S) and IF(A) to IF(S) then it'll be way more balanced all around   The IF(S) is less concerned with scoring and more about creating chances, he'll rush the box less often and stay deeper in build up, the same with the CM, he'll look to stay behind the ball more and create for players ahead of him rather than getting ahead of play and scoring  

I have noticed that their penalty area is full of players and all my shots are always blocked.

It makes sense to change the CM-a role to something else. but would a AP-a or AP-s work instead of a Cm-s? Or would it be bad because i already have a DLP?
But what about my FB-s behind my IF on the left? When i use him as a WB-s, he is terrible. I tried FB-s and it worked a lot better, maybe because my BBM is wide and the WB-s runs into him?
Would you change any instructions too?

[Johnny Ace]

18 minutes ago, LasseT95 said:

I have noticed that their penalty area is full of players and all my shots are always blocked.

Might be why, you send bodies forward, they'll send them back toward goal 

18 minutes ago, LasseT95 said:

It makes sense to change the CM-a role to something else. but would a AP-a or AP-s work instead of a Cm-s? Or would it be bad because i already have a DLP?

Why do you think those roles would work better than a CM(S)? CM in general, regardless of duty, is a solid role and a valid choice in any lineup that uses "8's", most Support roles in central midfield are just a CM(S) with hard coded visible and invisible personal instructions. Personally, I like one dedicated play maker in a lineup so I'd either use a DLP(D) and CM(S) or DM(D) and AP(S) 

18 minutes ago, LasseT95 said:

But what about my FB-s behind my IF on the left? When i use him as a WB-s, he is terrible. I tried FB-s and it worked a lot better, maybe because my BBM is wide and the WB-s runs into him?

 Fullbacks can drift infield, they're not as pinned out wide as a Wingback. I'd prefer a Wingback to create that overlap with the IF and stretch the pitch but the FullBack can help create overloads so it's to you. The player playing rubbish at Wingback and decent at FB will be more on the player than the role 

18 minutes ago, LasseT95 said:

Would you change any instructions too?

  They look fine for a general gegen style, I'd maybe drop the LOE or push up the D-Line too so the lines are a little more compact 

[LasseT95]

On 14/06/2023 at 12:36, Johnny Ace said:

Might be why, you send bodies forward, they'll send them back toward goal 

Why do you think those roles would work better than a CM(S)? CM in general, regardless of duty, is a solid role and a valid choice in any lineup that uses "8's", most Support roles in central midfield are just a CM(S) with hard coded visible and invisible personal instructions. Personally, I like one dedicated play maker in a lineup so I'd either use a DLP(D) and CM(S) or DM(D) and AP(S) 

 Fullbacks can drift infield, they're not as pinned out wide as a Wingback. I'd prefer a Wingback to create that overlap with the IF and stretch the pitch but the FullBack can help create overloads so it's to you. The player playing rubbish at Wingback and decent at FB will be more on the player than the role 

  They look fine for a general gegen style, I'd maybe drop the LOE or push up the D-Line too so the lines are a little more compact 

Changing it to CM-s have helped a little and i have 15 points in 9 games. I have been lucky with 1-0 victories and draws. I have a lot of shots inside their box, but they always get blocked or fly over the stadium and i don't know what to do, to get better chances. My last game was against Lecce palced 19th and i had 13 shots, only 3 on goal.
I don't know when to pass into space, because when it's on they always pass to the opponent.
I don't know when to work it into the box, because then i don't get any shots
I don't know when to have high lines or low lines
I don't know when to use balanced or positive mentality

Now i'm using DLP-d on DM and B2B with a CM-s. It doesn't seem like the B2B works that well. Should he be on the left side or right side? Right side is IW-s and left side is IF-a. or should i use a different role beside the CM-s? It feels like it's close to be a good tactic, but i need the last push to get comfortable wins instead of being lucky

[Johnny Ace]

You're probably best off starting your own thread @LasseT95. I created to this thread as a general guide and it's getting quite specific now, plus you'll have more eyes on your tactic if it wasn't in here

I can try and help though 

6 minutes ago, LasseT95 said:

I have a lot of shots inside their box, but they always get blocked or fly over the stadium and i don't know what to do, to get better chances. My last game was against Lecce palced 19th and i had 13 shots, only 3 on goal.

 Could to Tempo or Mentality or both. Players acting too fast on the ball or too high a mentality and they're taking shots rather than looking for better placed teammates 

7 minutes ago, LasseT95 said:

I don't know when to pass into space, because when it's on they always pass to the opponent.

Players will Pass into Space on there own regardless of the TI or PI. If you're not happy with it, turn it off. As a TI, you;ll probably get more success with it against a team that's attacking you rather than defending against you 

8 minutes ago, LasseT95 said:

I don't know when to have high lines or low lines

This can be match dependent. Backing your lines off against a stronger team can lead to bad news, the same for pushing them high up against a weaker opponent  

11 minutes ago, LasseT95 said:

I don't know when to use balanced or positive mentality
 

Similar to above 

11 minutes ago, LasseT95 said:

Now i'm using DLP-d on DM and B2B with a CM-s. It doesn't seem like the B2B works that well. Should he be on the left side or right side? Right side is IW-s and left side is IF-a. or should i use a different role beside the CM-s? It feels like it's close to be a good tactic, but i need the last push to get comfortable wins instead of being lucky

Try the BBM either side and watch how it works in game, if that still doesn't work out great, there's nothing wrong with two CM(S)'s or you could find a player upgrade in the next transfer window. The very first template I posted in this thread is very similar to your tactic 

[Johnny Ace]

4-3-3 DM - the Central Midfielder (Attack).....

or the Mezzala (Attack). I should've reserved a couple of posts on page 1, so I'm sorry this has ended up on page 3. Not only is the 4-3-3 a popular shape to use, the use of a CM(A) or MEZZ(A) is too, both are great roles to use so I'm not surprised one bit 

This setup is basically one I used whilst attempting the Youth Academy Challenge in Portugal in FM22, again, following the principles of the thread, it's simple by design 

I'll try and keep it brief 

Standard back line, but with the intentional use of a FB(S). His job is to keep it simple over on the left hand side, the right sided Wingback to carry the ball a little more and provide width on that side of the pitch. I even included a BPD here, I like to use them on the opposite side of the centre back pairing to which side the more offensive fullback role in on. You'll see, it'll make sense 

Now the more interesting part, as mentioned back on page 1, I like to use a Support duty DM role when I'm sending a central midfielder forward, this is to help keep the centre 3 as a unit. The more attacking CM plays on the side of the least offensive fullback, hence the FB(S) over on the left hand side. I would not be using a more offensive or risky role here, the FB(S) will mainly be keeping behind play and can help us on the turnovers 

We now have the CM(A) whose main priority will be getting forward and scoring over everything else. At my time in Portugal I used a MEZZ(A), he was by far the best player we had. On the ball, the DM(S) will be positioned slightly further forward than normal and stay closer to the centre midfield as the CM(A) could be looking to attack the box. Another thing with him being on Support, he'll be more "positive" with his pass choices, he'll be more about looking at what's ahead of him rather than the safer mentality of a DM(D). The CM(S) is to keep things steady in midfield and protect the right hand side, providing a similar task to the FB(S)

The frontline roles all offer something different, a left winger to provide some width when needed and allow the CM(A) forward. A DLF(S) to support and link up play, as the "False 10" he'll create an interesting dynamic with the CM(A), he'll be our central creative role out of the three and he'll still score his fair share of goals. Then, as the CM(A) will offer an offensive threat from the left, over on the right we have a goal scoring wide attacking role in the IF(A)

The full tactic

Spoiler

 The aim is to offer something different all over the pitch from back to front, from left to right       

[Bellyfish]

Great thread, trying to perfect a 4-3-3 for a dominant team right now so its been helpful.

One question I'd like to ask though is how do inverted wingbacks fit (if at all) into a 4-3-3?

In my current tactic I'm trying to make use of the regista role (which is hardcoded to roam). My thought process was that an IWB(D/S) will move centrally as the regista roams and provide cover along with my CM(D) on the other side.

However the majority of DM roles don't roam or get further forward, so an IWB won't move centrally if I were to use a DLP and instead just play like a normal wing back. Is my thinking right here? 

 

[77charisma77]

Quote

 

Thank you for the attacking CM version, much appreciated!

 

Your choice of roles is logical and makes sense, and while my version (I use the Mezz(a)) deviates a fair bit, it got me decent results - I'm topping the league table with Derby right before the winter break of the 2023 season. I'll share it for your review after work, looking forwards to your comments

Edited June 16, 2023 by 77charisma77

[Johnny Ace]

3 hours ago, Bellyfish said:

Great thread, trying to perfect a 4-3-3 for a dominant team right now so its been helpful.

One question I'd like to ask though is how do inverted wingbacks fit (if at all) into a 4-3-3?

In my current tactic I'm trying to make use of the regista role (which is hardcoded to roam). My thought process was that an IWB(D/S) will move centrally as the regista roams and provide cover along with my CM(D) on the other side.

However the majority of DM roles don't roam or get further forward, so an IWB won't move centrally if I were to use a DLP and instead just play like a normal wing back. Is my thinking right here? 

 

I do have a Regista template, if I find time over the weekend I'll post it up

An IWB will invert when the team is in possession, out of position he'll go back and defend the wide areas so he won't really help in covering the centre apart from maybe a few seconds when the ball's turned over. Similar applies to the Regista, he won't roam too far away from the DM position really, it's more he'll try and make himself available for the pass. A CM(D) just doesn't cut it for me in a 4-3-3 DM, I want a bit more from the 8's. By all means give it a try out but you'll see what I mean  

I don't often go for an IWB, I use a full back on the side of his opposite foot at times but I rarely do I go full IWB. If I did I'd use a Winger and just a CM(S), I'd use them more for their offensive capabilities than defensive      

[77charisma77]

On 16/06/2023 at 13:29, 77charisma77 said:

Thank you for the attacking CM version, much appreciated!

 

Your choice of roles is logical and makes sense, and while my version (I use the Mezz(a)) deviates a fair bit, it got me decent results - I'm topping the league table with Derby right before the winter break of the 2023 season. I'll share it for your review after work, looking forwards to your comments

Here's the tactic.

This was started as Bielsa's Leeds recreation save (I've only changed sides bcs of my players' footedness), so the roles were chosen having that in mind. As I said, I'm sitting top of the table with Derby right before the winter break of the 2022/23 season (no transfers / loans were done, the squad is the "default" Derby one ).

 

Regardless of league position, I'd say my tactic is clashing with the following general principles explained in this thread:

1) Width 
I'd say the fullback/winger roles are not the best as both flanks lack width, even though both AMR & AML, as well as FB(su) have "stay wider" PIs. I tried plying the left back as a CWB(su), since Ayling is both footed and often roamed and drifted inside. But I gave up quickly as the CWB role was to aggressive to allow the player to participate in the build up, which was a big aspect of Ayling's game under Bielsa, so I decided to go with a simple FB(su) and a creative defender (pretty much a BPD profile player) there.

2) Disjoint midfield
As for the midfield trio, there is a defensive duty DM and two roaming roles in CM slots. I believe that, more often than not, Kalvin Phillips played as a Regista under Bielsa. Phillips was always roaming around (especially during the build up) to make himself available to his teammates, and then often playing direct long balls forward to switch the side/momentum of play. This is why originally I went for a Regista here. But I suppose having the entire midfield roaming was not the best decision ever so I went for a simple DM(de) with "more direct passing" PI. I haven't been  experiencing any issues of disjoint play - maybe bcs of relatively high mentality pushing the DM forward? The RPM has the "Comes deep to get the ball" PPM, so maybe this helps a bit too?

Instead of the Mez(at), I've used a Mez(su) originally, since the support duty role also has the "get further forward" PI hardcode, which is reinforced with my "Underlap right" TI. But what I've found watching the games and statistics was actually that the attack duty is more productive - not entirely sure why?

[Bellyfish]

On 16/06/2023 at 15:42, Johnny Ace said:

Similar applies to the Regista, he won't roam too far away from the DM position really, it's more he'll try and make himself available for the pass. A CM(D) just doesn't cut it for me in a 4-3-3 DM, I want a bit more from the 8's. By all means give it a try out but you'll see what I mean  

Played half a season and I'd agree with both these points. CM(D) and REG often were too close and the REG wasnt running wild with his roam from position. The tactic worked but was more likely due to being a top team.

The below heat map was pretty similar for all the games. The CM(D) (number 6) could definately afford to push up a bit which should give the REG a better passing option. I'll try CM(S) this season in that spot 

Spoiler

 

[StatboySpurs]

Great thread, I enjoyed reading through it. I need a reset on my 4-3-3 for my upcoming season. Any comments on this one?

[Bellyfish]

15 hours ago, StatboySpurs said:

Great thread, I enjoyed reading through it. I need a reset on my 4-3-3 for my upcoming season. Any comments on this one?

Do you need the DLF on attack? I'd assume you main goal threats to be the IF(A) and CM(A). I'd play a supportive striker in this setup as I want him to feed those two players.

I've seen a lot of screenshots here of people using BPDs and I always want to ask; why? 4-3-3 provides nice passing to progress from defence to midfield, so why would you want a defender to bypass this with a risky ball to the advanced wingers?

Again everyone seems to have counter on by default. I'd take it off here and let the players decide. You are pushing high so its not going to be particular effective anyways.

[StatboySpurs]

4 hours ago, Bellyfish said:

Do you need the DLF on attack? I'd assume you main goal threats to be the IF(A) and CM(A). I'd play a supportive striker in this setup as I want him to feed those two players.

I've seen a lot of screenshots here of people using BPDs and I always want to ask; why? 4-3-3 provides nice passing to progress from defence to midfield, so why would you want a defender to bypass this with a risky ball to the advanced wingers?

Again everyone seems to have counter on by default. I'd take it off here and let the players decide. You are pushing high so its not going to be particular effective anyways.

Good points. I'm in the preseason, so I can do some experimenting. Thanks.

[Lasson]

20 hours ago, StatboySpurs said:

Great thread, I enjoyed reading through it. I need a reset on my 4-3-3 for my upcoming season. Any comments on this one?

Is Kofod good enough in front of goal to be one of your primary goal scorers? I might remember his attributes wrong, but I might find another role/duty for him.