Daveincid Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 vor 1 Minute schrieb Federico: So you think the vast majority of FM players, niche players by definition, was friggin' for a female database? No^^ But it seems to be stated that it was a political descision. So this was their decision again^^ vor 2 Minuten schrieb Federico: - You have to accept it, they make the game, they make the rules. I'm sure though, as customers, we're entitled to have a word if argumented in a civil manner. Agree? A lot of my suggestions in the feature-request-forum have been locked, so I'm pretty pleased how much my word is weighted vor 4 Minuten schrieb Federico: Always and from both sides. Agree again? Oh geez... vor 6 Minuten schrieb Federico: But many users complained about technical stuff that had nothing to do with discrimination And all good with that, as I said several times. I'm referring more to people who think they are "TheGreatest" Anyways, it's getting way too toxic in here. I'm out^^ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrazT Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 @TheGreatest You have only just joined but please make sure that you read and understand the forum rules before posting again- particularly this one: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/509042-providing-feedback-and-engaging-with-others/ Your 2 previous posts have been hidden as they clearly do not meet the above guidelines 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrazT Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 This is going in a direction that is not needed. If you have made your point of view known, then please just move on. If you want to debate about other issues, then do it by PM and leave this thread for others to comment in. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan1904 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 vor 11 Stunden schrieb legnerschorsch: Wouldn´t it be a good idea to first improve the vintage graphic engine? In its current state, it can´t even display the differences between the Champions League final and an amateur game. Weird priorities. Zitat To get our women’s database right we will have to examine every single in-game attribute and define exactly how we judge the data; attributes such as pace, acceleration and agility will likely stay with the same range, but some attributes may need a different scale. These attributes also feed into our match engine of course, and work done in this area (for example, looking at height of players and how that may affect how they play – such as aiming shots higher if a goalkeeper is smaller) will be of benefit for the match engine overall. The royal road will be to develop the ME in such a way that finer differences become recognisable overall and thus men's football also gains in variation. In my view, this is where the great potential lies. Because the matter can also be thought of in the other direction: if women's football is generally considered to be less physical, then this does not mean that the current ME merely has to be slimmed down, but - on the contrary - that the physicality of men's football has to be reflected more accurately. In this respect, both sides could benefit. And the quoted blog post by Miles makes me feel positive in this respect. We will have to wait and see. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carambau Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 (edited) Imo, Watching a womens game has become far more exciting than the usual boring mens football, where you can predict the outcome in 99% of the cases. I havent seen players running back to their own corner flag to waste time in womens football during almost every game. Womens football also seems filled with more surprising and unexpected elements which makes it far better to watch. Enjoyed the 3-3 draw between NED and BRA yesterday a lot. The goal by Miedema was lovely, there was a lot of drama, penalties given then taken back etc. And you know what? They don´t roll around on the floor like Neymar or the italian players after you slightly touch them on the hip. There is no crying like babies, those girls are tougher than the whole south american football federation! So yes, I appreciate SI including Female football soon Edited July 25, 2021 by Carambau 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Federico Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 12 minuti fa, Carambau ha scritto: Imo, Watching a womens game has become far more exciting than the usual boring mens football, where you can predict the outcome in 99% of the cases. I havent seen players running back to their own corner flag to waste time in womens football during almost every game. Womens football also seems filled with more surprising and unexpected elements which makes it far better to watch. Enjoyed the 3-3 draw between NED and BRA yesterday a lot. The goal by Miedema was lovely, there was a lot of drama, penalties given then taken back etc. And you know what? They don´t roll around on the floor like Neymar or the italian players after you slightly touch them on the hip. There is no crying like babies, those girls are tougher than the whole south american football federation! So yes, I appreciate SI including Female football soon I appreciate you like women football, but I don't get what this has to do with FM. And about mens football results being predictable in 99% of the cases... I think you refer to the last European Championships or the Champions League final presumibly 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carambau Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Federico said: I appreciate you like women football, but I don't get what this has to do with FM. And about mens football results being predictable in 99% of the cases... I think you refer to the last European Championships or the Champions League final presumibly If you can´t make the connection between me enjoying womens football in real life and therefore looking forward to it getting included in FM in the future, I really cannot help you anymore... About the EURO final and the CL final... yes I thought these games would exactly end like the way they ended, so yawn... It is my opinion anyway, not yours. Edited July 25, 2021 by Carambau 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Federico Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 7 minuti fa, Carambau ha scritto: If you can´t make the connection between me enjoying womens football in real life and therefore looking forward to it getting included in FM in the future, I really cannot help you anymore... About the EURO final and the CL final... yes I thought these games would exactly end like the way they ended, so yawn... It is my opinion anyway, not yours. Alright Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrrelevantLion Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Will the new female managers/staff still be in the "males" database? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaW Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 9 hours ago, CEVR1996 said: The question is if there really were people claiming that the addition of women's football to FM would ruin the game for them If you had seen what we have removed from here.... As well as some of comments on the announcement on Twitter. So yes, that is not hyperbole, but a clear response. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazhsw Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 9 hours ago, -Jef- said: We gonna act like male football matches are all full of excitement and prestige? Football as a game is void of excitement except 5-10 minutes per game. And female team sports are usually more technically and tactically sound. Just look at WNBA - it is much better product basketball wise. But because 99% of WNBA players don't dunk it's not exciting for the social media viewers. Also, remove 30k people in the stands and put top 5 league football on regular pitch like they play in sunday league and is it really that much different? I really like this post in response to 'women's football is boring'. I know we all get different things out of the game but I suspect a significant percentage of this board and football fans can't walk past two teams of under-9's playing football without stopping to watch. We can't walk past a Sunday league game on a park without watching for ten minutes. Lots of us may watch games on the biggest stages but many of us also watch non-league - or ANY football, because it is a universal language. Many of us spend a lot of money on season tickets and travelling away knowing full well the 'quality' and 'excitement' is likely to be boring - indeed, if you wanted excitement you would probably pick a different sport. And I'm good with that because we all go nuts when it's been 0-0 for 85 minutes and you scab a goal out of nothing, or you are there on that one day when magic truly happens because football is about narratives at almost every level, no matter how much is attempted to be sold back to us as 'elite level excitement'. Sorry to derail the thread, just think it's worth adding to Jef's brilliant point. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CARRERA Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Appreciate it, looking forward for the years to come Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner86 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 I’m all for it. People have been whining for years about no big changes to new games. Well, this is one. Good to see it’s happening, even if my engagement in it might be minimal. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rossums Posted July 25, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 25, 2021 (edited) Bit of a strange choice from my perspective outside of the performative 'look how inclusive we are' aspect of things that companies have to go through. Looking at FIFA 20 as an example where only ~2.5% of the playerbase even played a single women's game despite all the fanfare around the addition to the franchise, it seems to be quite clear to me that the vast majority of the playerbase didn't and doesn't care about the addition of women's football and I don't see why the Football Manager community would be any different. When it comes to Sports Interactive - a significantly smaller studio than those working on FIFA - a studio that constantly has issues with development of the main game and an inability to deliver intended features due to time constraints I really don't see this as anything positive but instead something that's going to negatively affect the main game by taking away valuable development resources for something that the vast majority of those playing very likely won't care about at all. It feels like a bit of a slap in the face when there are plenty of bugs and problems with the main game that go essentially ignored and the game takes several patches to get to an acceptable state but they are willing to dedicate a lot of time and effort into something that's ultimately destined to fall by the wayside. New features and substantial improvements have been lacking for years and in some regards some things have taken a massive step backwards, I'd much rather that effort was focused on improving the main game because it's starting to feel like SI are just taking advantage of the community because they know that there is no real alternative. I guess this sort of thing is to be expected though when there isn't really any competition in the market, it will be a good day when there is a real competitor on the market that forces them to meet higher standards. Edited July 25, 2021 by Rossums 17 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf_pd Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Rossums said: When it comes to Sports Interactive - a significantly smaller studio than those working on FIFA - a studio that constantly has issues with development of the main game and an inability to deliver intended features due to time constraints I really don't see this as anything positive but instead something that's going to negatively affect the main game by taking away valuable development resources for something that the vast majority of those playing very likely won't care about at all. The women's game is done by additional people at the company, so there is no taking away resources from the men's game. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rossums Posted July 25, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Wolf_pd said: The women's game is done by additional people at the company, so there is no taking away resources from the men's game. I guess that's not as bad then, I'd still much prefer if those additional people were to focus on the main game however considering the current state of things. I've honestly been pretty disappointed by FM20 and especially the FM21 'headline features' and it's clear if you read the announcement thread that a lot of peoples feel exactly the same way, especially when it comes to things like the match engine and graphics which I'd likely describe as having jumped back a decade if it weren't for the fact that it looked better a decade prior. Stuff like this is quite honestly ridiculous at this stage and it just feels like we're paying for an updated database with a few minor changes each year and spend the first several months beta testing it until SI get round to releasing their patches to fix some of the bugs that should never have seen the light of day. 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SD Posted July 25, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 25, 2021 My concerns with the announcement are two-fold. 1. By all indications it's not as simple as adding a custom league - new animations, ME tweaks, AI, perhaps entirely new mechanics(Miles was hinting about the effects of periods on women athlete performance). I wouldn't be surprised if for the next couple editions a sizeable portion of the flagship new features are going to be related to the women's game - so yes, those of us who have little to no interest in women's football have every right to be concerned if that development effort is going to be at the expense of the main game. Ok, there's a chance that my concerns turn out to be unfounded, but that kind of righteous entitlement from Miles recent "we don't need that money" statement lost a lot of goodwill points with me. 2. There's an undeniable political undertone not as much to the announcement itself but mostly to the way SI handled the ensuing criticism, I've seen plenty of other game developers making that shift from politically agnostic to activist, and people are correctly intuiting this shift - it's not like you're the first developer to take their fanbase for granted and start treating them like unwashed masses in need of educating. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carambau Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 I don´t get the problem. If you don´t want to play it, don´t play it. But please let other players enjoy it and spare them your negative comments. This is easy enough to do. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf_pd Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 32 minutes ago, SD said: My concerns with the announcement are two-fold. 1. By all indications it's not as simple as adding a custom league - new animations, ME tweaks, AI, perhaps entirely new mechanics(Miles was hinting about the effects of periods on women athlete performance). I wouldn't be surprised if for the next couple editions a sizeable portion of the flagship new features are going to be related to the women's game - so yes, those of us who have little to no interest in women's football have every right to be concerned if that development effort is going to be at the expense of the main game. Ok, there's a chance that my concerns turn out to be unfounded, but that kind of righteous entitlement from Miles recent "we don't need that money" statement lost a lot of goodwill points with me. 2. There's an undeniable political undertone not as much to the announcement itself but mostly to the way SI handled the ensuing criticism, I've seen plenty of other game developers making that shift from politically agnostic to activist, and people are correctly intuiting this shift - it's not like you're the first developer to take their fanbase for granted and start treating them like unwashed masses in need of educating. With regard to concern 1, as FM22 will not have women's football, there will not women's game related new feature. Possibly a feature that covers both the men's and women's game, but not one for just the women's game. Afterall, it would be a waste of money as it can't be used if the full women's game isn't in the game yet. And again, I want to emphasize that SI is adding people to work on the women's football part, not taking away from the current team. Yes, there will be overlap and yes, there will be syncrhonization between teams, but this is a general thing inside any kind of big project/release. With regards to the political undertone, SI has said they support the women's game and that they want to support by adding women's football to FM. You are allowed to have an opinion about it, worry about whether it takes away from the main part of the game. That is all understandable. The line is drawn at making sexist remarks however and several (now hidden) posts were going on in a manner we do not want to see on the board. A critical post is appreciated if argumented. They will be answered as well, like I have done with your post. Whether we agree on certain points, doesn't matter. As long as the discussion is honest and civil, we will have no issues with the discussion. Also, many worries are about a lack of information. To point out, even though being a mod, I know not much more than the information that has come out. Many of your worries will be proven right or wrong over time and please take the time to wait how things play out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 17 minutes ago, Wolf_pd said: You are allowed to have an opinion about it, worry about whether it takes away from the main part of the game. That is all understandable. The line is drawn at making sexist remarks however and several (now hidden) posts were going on in a manner we do not want to see on the board. Well according to SI director Miles Jacobson that line isn't drawn at abuse as you claim, but mere concerns and criticism. I've already crossed that line and apparently the game is no longer for me. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEVR1996 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 22 minutos atrás, SD disse: Well according to SI director Miles Jacobson that line isn't drawn at abuse as you claim, but mere concerns and criticism. I've already crossed that line and apparently the game is no longer for me. I've also raised this point and was told that there were in fact a bunch of comments here spewing vitriol towards women's football but I didn't got to see any of them personally. I'm not sure what to believe at this point but it's clear that SI is branching out towards political activism, not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but with politics and cultural issues having been pushed heavily into real world football as of late, it would only be a matter of time until the video game companies which own franchises representing the sport followed suit to keep up with the trend. What I won't stand along for is the idea of treating those who hold their fair share of reservations about this particular move with profound disdain simply because they dare to question such decision and express a concern for how it will impact the development and management process of upcoming iterations. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, CEVR1996 said: I've also raised this point and was told that there were in fact a bunch of comments here spewing vitriol towards women's football but I didn't got to see any of them personally. I'm not sure what to believe at this point but it's clear that SI is branching out towards political activism, not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but with politics and cultural issues having been pushed heavily into real world football as of late, it would only be a matter of time until the video game companies which own franchises representing the sport followed suit to keep up with the trend. What I won't stand along for is the idea of treating those who hold their fair share of reservations about this particular move with profound disdain simply because they dare to question such decision and express a concern for how it will impact the development and management process of upcoming iterations. To be clear, people are absolutely fine to have their own constructive views for or against, there's plenty of that on the thread. But let's not for one second pretend we haven't had to delete dozens of posts and ban at least a dozen posters. And none of it was anything to with concerns. It was purely sexist and offensive comments, and we won't tolerate it. Just because you didn't see them doesn't mean it didn't happen. We've had to delete more abusive posts in this thread than the rest of the forum combined this week. As for political statements, this is not new, SI have always been progressive on their social, societal statements, in and outside of the game. That's not new and has never been kept quiet 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaW Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 1 minute ago, CEVR1996 said: I've also raised this point and was told that there were in fact a bunch of comments here spewing vitriol towards women's football but I didn't got to see any of them personally. I'm not sure what to believe at this point but it's clear that SI is branching out towards political activism, not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but with politics and cultural issues having been pushed heavily into real world football as of late, it would only be a matter of time until the video game companies which own franchises representing the sport followed suit to keep up with the trend. What I won't stand along for is the idea of treating those who hold their fair share of reservations about this particular move with profound disdain simply because they dare to question such decision and express a concern for how it will impact the development and management process of upcoming iterations. As I answered you above, we have removed some vile comment (and handed out bans from them) already. If you really question that, have a look in the Twitter comments under the announcement. We had some of the same here, but fortunately not as bad. There are no one here who will stop you from saying you don't like it. Some might question you opinion, in the same way you question SI's to do this. As long as everyone follows the house rules of being respectful and shy away from sexism, abuse, or harassment, there are no reason to remove posts. For what it's worth I've yet to see any reasonable objection to it. I mean, SI have said they are doing this on the side of the normal development and thus will not impact the regular features. So there is no lost features for those who don't want to play with teams in women's football. As a political statement, I'd say it's pretty clear that SI have made political statements before, with inclusion of players coming out as gay, rainbow flags, as well as contributions to various charities. There are questions about including other leagues, but as Neil have said above this is often due to low sales in those countries and/or problems in scouting or licensing. So other than those questions that are already addressed by SI, what are your objections to adding it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf_pd Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 57 minutes ago, SD said: Well according to SI director Miles Jacobson that line isn't drawn at abuse as you claim, but mere concerns and criticism. I've already crossed that line and apparently the game is no longer for me. You got me there. The norm on this forum is differentiating between abuse and concern/critiscism. If you would have seen some of the messages we have hidden, you would see the clear difference between what you have posted and responded to me and some of the 'stronger' comments made. As I said, judge each FM game on its content and decide based on that if you want to buy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEVR1996 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 4 minutos atrás, themadsheep2001 disse: To be clear, people are absolutely fine to have their own constructive views for or against. But let's not for one second pretend we havent had to delete dozens of posts and ban at least a dozen posters. And none of it was anything to with concern. It was purely sexist and offensive comments. Just because you didn't see them doesn't mean it didn't happen I haven't said they didn't happen, there will always be people who spew out vile rethoric against what they don't like, it's the aforementioned scale of said hate aimed at this specific subject that has left me on the back foot but I'll take your word for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEVR1996 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 15 minutos atrás, XaW disse: As I answered you above, we have removed some vile comment (and handed out bans from them) already. If you really question that, have a look in the Twitter comments under the announcement. We had some of the same here, but fortunately not as bad. There are no one here who will stop you from saying you don't like it. Some might question you opinion, in the same way you question SI's to do this. As long as everyone follows the house rules of being respectful and shy away from sexism, abuse, or harassment, there are no reason to remove posts. For what it's worth I've yet to see any reasonable objection to it. I mean, SI have said they are doing this on the side of the normal development and thus will not impact the regular features. So there is no lost features for those who don't want to play with teams in women's football. As a political statement, I'd say it's pretty clear that SI have made political statements before, with inclusion of players coming out as gay, rainbow flags, as well as contributions to various charities. There are questions about including other leagues, but as Neil have said above this is often due to low sales in those countries and/or problems in scouting or licensing. So other than those questions that are already addressed by SI, what are your objections to adding it? I don't have any objections towards this particular project, just concerns regarding the future of the franchise if the company decides to become overtly political and have a greater emphasis on promoting cultural causes than actually deliver a fun and well made game which any diehard football fan who seeks to abstract themselves from the politically twisted and ideological madness of the real world can enjoy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaW Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 1 minute ago, CEVR1996 said: I don't have any objections towards this particular project, just concerns regarding the future of the franchise if the company decides to become overtly political and have a greater emphasis on promoting cultural causes than actually deliver a fun and well made game which any diehard football fan who seeks to abstract themselves from the politically twisted and ideological madness of the real world can enjoy. Of course, but that is quite the stretch based on just adding the women's football to FM, isn't it? I mean, I'd say it's less of a political statement than having players come out as gay or adding rainbow flags in that case, so why bring this up now? And while the project might not be economically viable at the current time, the interest for women's football is growing year by year. So while it might be a financial gamble, it could pan out in the long run, especially if you consider the extra media attention it gets. If you want to take the political part out, as SI have said they want to increase publicity for the women's side of the game. So even from a commercial point, it's not a crazy take. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
santy001 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 1 hour ago, SD said: Well according to SI director Miles Jacobson that line isn't drawn at abuse as you claim, but mere concerns and criticism. I've already crossed that line and apparently the game is no longer for me. You have to be very careful how you word things because this isn't at all what Miles has said from what I can see. His comments to the athletic were that those who believe the addition of women's football (something which will be entirely optional to their playing experience) will ruin the game for them then they are not wanted. There is a huge difference between what you think on it being implemented in the game and stating/believing it will ruin the game for you. If, by its mere inclusion, it will ruin the game for a person then that means there has to be a direct opposition to womens football somewhere. Which leads down a path where the only viable conclusions are those ultimately aren't the people you want to support you and be backing you. Most people will poorly convey their point on the basis of developmental resources and conflating that with concerns about how development could go. That's an area we've been discussing a lot. No one knows the state of the FM22, and subsequent versions, in terms of bugs/features/graphics etc. But if everything is magically fine and dandy with SI knocking it out of the park and yet the game is still ruined for people by the thought or eventual inclusion of women's football then that's a problem they have. I'm the Stoke Researcher and its not been the case that someone has said to me "Hey, you need to pick up the research for the Stoke Women's team" because there will be a person who comes along to do that. Someone for whom it is a genuine interest. Logistically for me it would be no different between SI saying I need to research the Stoke Women's team, Port Vale, or Crewe. They could ask me but my answer would be no because I don't have an interest or passion in them irrespective of the Men's/Women's status. I can't feign the interest or passion for those, I have no memories of walking away from those respective grounds with my dad week in, week out 25+ years ago. No history of the wall charts of fixtures, the pictures of squads up on my bedroom wall and everything that followed. The people involved will be those who want to make it happen. ----- Women's football is not a political issue, it is football. What FM is doing is ultimately looking to further reflect, in more depth, the reality of the sport in which it exists and that so happens to help further other things from an equality perspective. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEVR1996 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 (edited) 21 minutos atrás, XaW disse: Of course, but that is quite the stretch based on just adding the women's football to FM, isn't it? I mean, I'd say it's less of a political statement than having players come out as gay or adding rainbow flags in that case, so why bring this up now? And while the project might not be economically viable at the current time, the interest for women's football is growing year by year. So while it might be a financial gamble, it could pan out in the long run, especially if you consider the extra media attention it gets. If you want to take the political part out, as SI have said they want to increase publicity for the women's side of the game. So even from a commercial point, it's not a crazy take. I'm saying this with those other prior implementations in mind too, the raimbow flags and players coming out as gay, but I've been refraining myself from mentioning it up until now because you never know what people might decide to label you as if you dare to speak up against a push to advertise and promote an ideology inside a realm that should be apolitical by proxy. I'm all for raising awareness towards women's football, it's a righteous step to take no doubt about that but at a time in which nearly everything in polite society has been charged with political rhetoric and turned into a means to push some sort of ulterior agenda, I can't help but feel a certain degree of annoying uncertainty about how that might affect SI in the near future and subsequently FM. Edited July 25, 2021 by CEVR1996 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaW Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, CEVR1996 said: I'm saying this with those other prior implementations in mind too, the raimbow flags and players coming out as gay, but I've been refraining myself from mentioning it up until now because you never know what people might decide to label you as if you dare to speak up against a push to advertise and promote an ideology inside a realm that should be apolitical by proxy. I'm all for raising awareness towards women's football, it's a righteous step to take no doubt about that but at a time in which nearly everything in polite society has been charged with political rhetoric and turned into a means to push some sort of ulterior agenda, I can't help but feel a certain degree of annoying uncertainty about how that might affect SI in the near future and subsequently FM. It's not really political by pushing for equality for everyone. And SI can do whatever they want with their intellectual property. If the game had gone in a direction that I didn't like, I'd stop buying it. We are getting a bit off topic here, but if you want feel free to PM me, and we can have a discussion about it there, to keep this thread on topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grff Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, CEVR1996 said: I'm saying this with those other prior implementations in mind too, the raimbow flags and players coming out as gay, but I've been refraining myself from mentioning it up until now because you never know what people might decide to label you as if you dare to speak up against a push to advertise and promote an ideology inside a realm that should be apolitical by proxy. I'm all for raising awareness towards women's football, it's a righteous step to take no doubt about that but at a time in which nearly everything in polite society has been charged with political rhetoric and turned into a means to push some sort of ulterior agenda, I can't help but feel a certain degree of annoying uncertainty about how that might affect SI in the near future and subsequently FM. Genuine questions... did the introduction of the rainbow flags/gay players stop you from playing the versions that include them? If not, will the introduction of women's football stop you playing? As for how the changes will affect the current FM format, SI have made clear multiple times already that the new work needed will not take away from the game as we currently know it. There is no reason to believe they aren't telling the truth on this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Firstly equality isn't political, its fundamental. Secondly Football Manager can be whatever SI want it to be. Last time I checked there was no requirement for games to be apolitical. Just because you might want that doesn't mean that's how it should be. Also entirely irrelevant to women's football, which, last time I checked, was part of football. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 @CEVR1996 I've deleted your post because frankly that's bordering on homophobic. I think you should either stick to the topic at hand or step away from the thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prokopije Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Good decision. Can't wait for it to be implemented Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 20 minutes ago, santy001 said: You have to be very careful how you word things because this isn't at all what Miles has said from what I can see. His comments to the athletic were that those who believe the addition of women's football (something which will be entirely optional to their playing experience) will ruin the game for them then they are not wanted. There is a huge difference between what you think on it being implemented in the game and stating/believing it will ruin the game for you. If, by its mere inclusion, it will ruin the game for a person then that means there has to be a direct opposition to womens football somewhere. Which leads down a path where the only viable conclusions are those ultimately aren't the people you want to support you and be backing you. Most people will poorly convey their point on the basis of developmental resources and conflating that with concerns about how development could go. That's an area we've been discussing a lot. No one knows the state of the FM22, and subsequent versions, in terms of bugs/features/graphics etc. But if everything is magically fine and dandy with SI knocking it out of the park and yet the game is still ruined for people by the thought or eventual inclusion of women's football then that's a problem they have. I'm the Stoke Researcher and its not been the case that someone has said to me "Hey, you need to pick up the research for the Stoke Women's team" because there will be a person who comes along to do that. Someone for whom it is a genuine interest. Logistically for me it would be no different between SI saying I need to research the Stoke Women's team, Port Vale, or Crewe. They could ask me but my answer would be no because I don't have an interest or passion in them irrespective of the Men's/Women's status. I can't feign the interest or passion for those, I have no memories of walking away from those respective grounds with my dad week in, week out 25+ years ago. No history of the wall charts of fixtures, the pictures of squads up on my bedroom wall and everything that followed. The people involved will be those who want to make it happen. ----- Women's football is not a political issue, it is football. What FM is doing is ultimately looking to further reflect, in more depth, the reality of the sport in which it exists and that so happens to help further other things from an equality perspective. I was indifferent to the original announcement on Friday, but with the stances it took since SI has lost any presumption of good faith with me. I am skeptical that the women's football will be entirely optional and I will be able to disable it from the gameworld entirely, and furthermore I am skeptical this newfound woke fervor won't lead to further gameplay compromises at the expense of realism and immersion. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikelfc8 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 For those who are concerned that the inclusion of women's football will siphon resources from the development of the game. I am very curious to know whether or not you had similar concerns when SI announced they were developing versions of the game for platforms you are not interested in? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said: Firstly equality isn't political, its fundamental. Secondly Football Manager can be whatever SI want it to be. Last time I checked there was no requirement for games to be apolitical. Just because you might want that doesn't mean that's how it should be. Also entirely irrelevant to women's football That you think equal outcome(equal preeminence, in this case) are a moral imperative is very much a political stance, I don't find anything morally wrong with women's football being a lot less popular than the men's sport - nobody's wronging women's football by not supporting it, people are simply voting with their wallets and with the eyes against it, the same thing your mod colleague @XaWsuggest we do with FM if we don't like it, ain't it? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Federico Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 36 minuti fa, grff ha scritto: Genuine questions... did the introduction of the rainbow flags/gay players stop you from playing the versions that include them? If not, will the introduction of women's football stop you playing? As for how the changes will affect the current FM format, SI have made clear multiple times already that the new work needed will not take away from the game as we currently know it. There is no reason to believe they aren't telling the truth on this. Some graphic addition has nothing to do with a brand new game basically. Unless someone has problems with sexism and things like that, and apparently with his brain as well. After so many comments I get to this conclusion: a lot of users complaining for this choice, to introduce womens football, and a lot of users plauding for this choice, are doing it by wrong reasons. Surely it wont affect negatively the FM development (some might argue why you spent resources for womens football and not for progressing the game and his cronic issues), but plauding at it just because they like womens football... it turns that you're missing some points. The only valid point for it to be included in FM is breaking that barrier that is still existing, comments are just there to prove it. SI has always been on the frontline with good causes, like Save the Children and Kick it Out, they introduced rainbow flags and players outing their sexual orientation. This in my opinion is impressive and truly praiseworthy especially from a relative "small" (not so small after all, but we like to consider you "small", it gets you closer to us) Company. Adding to this, they know and they stated this is gonna be a commercial bet and they'll lose money on it. Still they pursue this way. Women football is living a golden age I think, they have an attention they never had in the past probably. But I'd rather have an option to make my players to kneel down before a game, a sign against any kind of discrimination and abuse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Just now, SD said: That you think equal outcome(equal preeminence, in this case) are a moral imperative is very much a political stance, I don't find anything morally wrong with women's football being a lot less popular than the men's sport - nobody's wronging women's football by not supporting it, people are simply voting with their wallets and with the eyes against it, the same thing your mod colleague @XaWsuggest we do with FM if we don't like it, ain't it? Not sure what your point is here, I was speaking to a wider view of society. As far as the game is concerned, do what you like with your wallet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaW Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 1 minute ago, SD said: That you think equal outcome(equal preeminence, in this case) are a moral imperative is very much a political stance, I don't find anything morally wrong with women's football being a lot less popular than the men's sport - nobody's wronging women's football by not supporting it, people are simply voting with their wallets and with the eyes against it, the same thing your mod colleague @XaWsuggest we do with FM if we don't like it, ain't it? This is way out of the topic of the thread, if you want PM me and we can discuss it and not disrupt the thread further. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikelfc8 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, SD said: I was indifferent to the original announcement on Friday, but with the stances it took since SI has lost any presumption of good faith with me. I am skeptical that the women's football will be entirely optional and I will be able to disable it from the gameworld entirely, and furthermore I am skeptical this newfound woke fervor won't lead to further gameplay compromises at the expense of realism and immersion. Women's football is literally real. Edited July 25, 2021 by mikelfc8 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said: For those who are concerned that the inclusion of women's football will siphon resources from the development of the game. I am very curious to know whether or not you had similar concerns when SI announced they were developing versions of the game for platforms you are not interested in? The base so broad there will always be things they invest in that have hold no interest in for others, that's just the nature of it. My biggest concern would be that they didn't approach it full bore, but doesn't so far look like the case. Anything that grows the game universe and brings more Immersion for me is always welcome. I like the fact they've brought in Emma Hayes, and I don't think her input should be limited to the women's side only, she's one of the sharpest minds in football and could definitely add to the game as a whole 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright 747 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said: I like the fact they've brought in Emma Hayes, and I don't think her input should be limited to the women's side only, she's one of the sharpest minds in football and could definitely add to the game as a whole Agreed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikelfc8 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said: The base so broad there will always be things they invest in that have hold no interest in for others, that's just the nature of it. My biggest concern would be that they didn't approach it full bore, but doesn't so far look like the case. Anything that grows the game universe and brings more Immersion for me is always welcome. I like the fact they've brought in Emma Hayes, and I don't think her input should be limited to the women's side only, she's one of the sharpest minds in football and could definitely add to the game as a whole Spot on. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
santy001 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 18 minutes ago, SD said: I am skeptical that the women's football will be entirely optional and I will be able to disable it from the gameworld entirely I highly doubt you'll be able to disable it entirely, just like you can't disable Brazil from existing in your game world. You can choose not to load the league, and not to load the players from that country/region, but you don't get to pick and choose what exists in the game once it has been added. How much you engage with it is entirely at your own discretion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Federico Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 In questo momento, santy001 ha scritto: I highly doubt you'll be able to disable it entirely, just like you can't disable Brazil from existing in your game world. You can choose not to load the league, and not to load the players from that country/region, but you don't get to pick and choose what exists in the game once it has been added. How much you engage with it is entirely at your own discretion. I'd rather see it as a different database you can load or don't at the start of a new career. I don't think there will be any kind of cross playing so to say. Just speculations of course. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Just now, santy001 said: I highly doubt you'll be able to disable it entirely, just like you can't disable Brazil from existing in your game world. You can choose not to load the league, and not to load the players from that country/region, but you don't get to pick and choose what exists in the game once it has been added. How much you engage with it is entirely at your own discretion. You can't disable Brazil because it's an integral part of men's football ecosystem, but there's very little overlap between the men's and the women's sport when it comes to the things that are within the scope of the game - player pools, staff, development infrastructure, finances. And yes, it's well possible to disable countries from the gameworld, Japan from example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
santy001 Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Japan still exists in the game. Constraints imposed by licensing conditions do not alter the fact that Japan is a very real part of the world. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grff Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 37 minutes ago, SD said: You can't disable Brazil because it's an integral part of men's football ecosystem, but there's very little overlap between the men's and the women's sport when it comes to the things that are within the scope of the game - player pools, staff, development infrastructure, finances. And yes, it's well possible to disable countries from the gameworld, Japan from example. Except the cross over is more than just very little. In terms of facilties - Half of the teams in the WSL groundshare with men's teams. Man City Ladies use the academy/training facilties at the club. Staff wise - from doing a very quick wiki search, there are at least 10 ex-players from the men's game that are or have managed a team in the WSL. We aren't talking unknowns either...Neil Redfearn, Chris Kirkland, Gareth Taylor, Scott Booth. Not to mention Phil Neville once being the NT coach. Pretty much every team in the WSL have a connection to the men's game in terms of infrastructure and staffing. The above occurances will no doubt increase in number as the gap narrows between the standards of the men/women's game. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazhsw Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Federico said: I'd rather see it as a different database you can load or don't at the start of a new career. I don't think there will be any kind of cross playing so to say. Just speculations of course. I think you would be surprised at the level of crossplaying. I know SI have their data one way or another but there are players who pick a big club or their favourite club and stay there, and other players who leap around jobs and countries all the time, often with mods of missing nations or ridiculous levels of depth in nations in game. I suspect a lot of those players are absolutely rubbing their hands at jumping back and forth between the men's and women's game - especially for long time players who have been 'everywhere' this is a great opportunity for a new experience. And not aimed at you Frederico specifically but there are a lot of dogwhistles in this thread with concern trolling about the game's development / data and use of phrases like 'agenda' and 'woke' and 'political'. It's transparent as anything. One could argue NOT including women's football is a bigger 'political' statement than its inclusion right now as it excludes a whole swathe of professional footballers from the world's most immersive football game based on their gender. I am reminded of two constant complaints about FM. 1) 'when are you going to add game changing new features rather than a glorified database update and... 2) 'when are you going to add more leagues' This announcement covers both of those criticisms but it appears not those features and not those leagues for some which I can only surmise is rooted in outdated opinions about women in sport 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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