How we're introducing women's football into Football Manager

[gunner86]

1 hour ago, Federico said:

I'd rather see it as a different database you can load or don't at the start of a new career. I don't think there will be any kind of cross playing so to say. Just speculations of course.

I’d like to think there would be cross play. 
What if people want to go full Phil Neville?

(Thats a sentence I never thought I’d say)

[Federico]

11 minuti fa, bazhsw ha scritto:

And not aimed at you Frederico specifically but there are a lot of dogwhistles in this thread with concern trolling about the game's development / data and use of phrases like 'agenda' and 'woke' and 'political'.  It's transparent as anything.

I'm surprised you mentioned me honestly, as I never sided the complainers band-wagon.

I hope we'll have the choice to install/download it or not though, like what is happening with FM Touch or different contents in example.

[Federico]

10 minuti fa, gunner86 ha scritto:

I’d like to think there would be cross play. 
What if people want to go full Phil Neville?

(Thats a sentence I never thought I’d say)

Yeah I can only imagine people rioting in the streets if that won't be possible

Everyone's dream is to be Phil Neville!

[Macshimmy]

Just as an aside, I highly recommend listening to this podcast on football history:

BBC Radio 4 - You're Dead To Me, The History of Football

I wouldn't say I agree with all of the content, (bit Anglo-centric in their claims) but the section on the women's game is brilliant.

Short version; It was sabotaged and suppressed by the organisations in charge of the game because they feared it's popularity. 

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Macshimmy said:

Just as an aside, I highly recommend listening to this podcast on football history:

BBC Radio 4 - You're Dead To Me, The History of Football

I wouldn't say I agree with all of the content, (bit Anglo-centric in their claims) but the section on the women's game is brilliant.

Short version; It was sabotaged and suppressed by the organisations in charge of the game because they feared it's popularity. 

Yep, women's football in England was absolutely huge, almost matching men's in the numbers it brought in, so rather than embrace it, they killed it. When people ask why men's football organisations should help women's football, my answer is always: because they owe them for killing it in the first place

[gam945]

Well it seems like FM2021 will be my last FM game...I am playing a football game and will not tolerate political minded changes.

I find it annoying -not only in FM- that men are pushed for political reasons to support women's football. Women don't watch football and don't play FM (compared to men) so basically men need to fill in for them. The fact that SI does not want to make a stand alone women's game and make it face the market tells a lot about women's football.

Anyway, if Miles doesn't want my money I'm certainly not giving it to him. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by gam945

[Federico]

5 minuti fa, gam945 ha scritto:

Well it seems like FM2021 will be my last FM game...I am playing a football game and will not tolerate political minded changes.

I find it annoying -not only in FM- that men are pushed for political reasons to support women's football. Women don't watch football and don't play FM (compared to men) so basically men need to fill in for them. The fact that SI does not want to make a stand alone women's game and make it face the market tells a lot about women's football.

Anyway, if Miles doesn't want my money I'm certainly not giving it to him. 

There's nothing political in that.

It's called civilisation.

[mikelfc8]

6 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Well it seems like FM2021 will be my last FM game...I am playing a football game and will not tolerate political minded changes.

I find it annoying -not only in FM- that men are pushed for political reasons to support women's football. Women don't watch football and don't play FM (compared to men) so basically men need to fill in for them. The fact that SI does not want to make a stand alone women's game and make it face the market tells a lot about women's football.

Anyway, if Miles doesn't want my money I'm certainly not giving it to him. 

How about reality-minded changes?

[gam945]

4 minutes ago, Federico said:

There's nothing political in that.

It's called civilisation.

Well SI itself assumes that adding women's football is for inclusion/political reasons.

I'm not at all against a Women's FM stand alone game. Hell, I'd buy it to my girl and almost force her to play it 

However adding it to the actual form of FM is imho a very bad move.

Edited July 25, 2021 by gam945

[gam945]

5 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said:

How about reality-minded changes?

A reality-minded change would be to include leagues like Cyprus, Egypt or Morocco (or even just fixing the multiple bugs in existing features) before thinking about Women's football.

A reality-minded change would be to make a women's stand alone FM game and make it test the market, not putting it in the popular men's football game to "hide" it.

Edited July 25, 2021 by gam945

[FulchesterFred]

5 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said:

How about reality-minded changes?

 

13 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Well it seems like FM2021 will be my last FM game...I am playing a football game and will not tolerate political minded changes.

I find it annoying -not only in FM- that men are pushed for political reasons to support women's football. Women don't watch football and don't play FM (compared to men) so basically men need to fill in for them. The fact that SI does not want to make a stand alone women's game and make it face the market tells a lot about women's football.

Anyway, if Miles doesn't want my money I'm certainly not giving it to him. 

Women don’t watch football!? Where do you live? Iran?? Saudi Arabia?? Where women are allowed to watch football(pretty much everywhere) the % mix difference men and women watching is narrowing at speed. 
football participation amongst girls is surging.

you’re on the wrong side of history, SI will be on the right side.

[XaW]

6 minutes ago, gam945 said:

A reality-minded change would be to include leagues like Cyprus, Egypt or Morocco (or even just fixing the multiple bugs in existing features) before thinking about Women's football.

I'd love those leagues, but according to SI the sales are low in those countries, or the scouting isn't possible.

6 minutes ago, gam945 said:

A reality-minded change would be to make a women's stand alone FM game and make it test the market, not putting it in the popular men's football game to "hide" it.

SI/Miles have said it, one game since football is one sport. And how is announcing it years in advance hiding it? There are threads every year asking SI to add it. Also, if you don't want to play it, just don't load the leagues. Why is this an issue?

[mikelfc8]

2 minutes ago, gam945 said:

A reality-minded change would be to include leagues like Cyprus, Egypt or Morocco (or even just fixing the multiple bugs in existing features) before thinking about Women's football.

A reality-minded change would be to make a women's stand alone FM game and make it test the market, not putting it in the popular men's football game to "hide" it.

Those leagues are as equally part of reality as women's football. Reality has no order of preference, you do.

What aspect of reality dictates that there should be a women's only game?

[themadsheep2001]

SI has done loads of inclusion based things, we have gay Pride in the game and players coming for example. Adding women's football to a game called football manager is the least controversial thing. It's amazing how many arguments ultimately boil down to "I don't want women in my game"

[mikelfc8]

I haven't heard a single objection so far that couldn't be applied to things already in the game, that attract no controversy and no complaint.

[gam945]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

I'd love those leagues, but according to SI the sales are low in those countries, or the scouting isn't possible.

I'd like SI to investigate on leagues played by location if possible, as I'm sure that for example most people playing with Gibraltarian teams are not from Gibraltar. So this argument may be rendered illogical.

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

SI/Miles have said it, one game since football is one sport. And how is announcing it years in advance hiding it? There are threads every year asking SI to add it. Also, if you don't want to play it, just don't load the leagues. Why is this an issue?

By hiding it I meant that it's potential -and probable- poor performance in terms of audience will be hidden as the game will still sell due to the men's football portion of the game.

[grff]

31 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Well it seems like FM2021 will be my last FM game...I am playing a football game and will not tolerate political minded changes.

I find it annoying -not only in FM- that men are pushed for political reasons to support women's football. Women don't watch football and don't play FM (compared to men) so basically men need to fill in for them. The fact that SI does not want to make a stand alone women's game and make it face the market tells a lot about women's football.

Anyway, if Miles doesn't want my money I'm certainly not giving it to him. 

You're in no way being pushed to support women's football, in the same way you're not being pushed into supporting Canadien football when SI announce the introduction of said league in the game.

Why would SI make a standalone game when they've got the structure of the FM model in place. In addition, men and women's football are far from standalone as they regular overlap in terms of staffing, facilities etc.

19 minutes ago, gam945 said:

A reality-minded change would be to include leagues like Cyprus, Egypt or Morocco (or even just fixing the multiple bugs in existing features) before thinking about Women's football.

A reality-minded change would be to make a women's stand alone FM game and make it test the market, not putting it in the popular men's football game to "hide" it.

The leagues you mention will have less followers than the whole planet's followers of women's football.

Edited July 25, 2021 by grff

[bazhsw]

For those who say 'make a women's only game and let it face the market' rather than 'hide' it in the 'main' game, I ask you this.

Would you buy 'Iceland Football Manager', because surely it's inclusion is 'hidden' amongst all those saves where most players pick a big Premier League club.  Why not let 'Iceland Football Manager' face the market'?

It is called 'Football Manager'.  It doesn't say 'only men's football manager'.  Women's football is of a suitable reach and status and professionalism that justifies it's presence.  There are so many people tying themselves in knots and upset about this it would be laughable if not for the real life harm these attitudes have

[gam945]

4 minutes ago, grff said:

The leagues you mention will have less followers than the whole planet's followers of women's football.

Much of the women's football following is artificial (free tickets, pushed by mainstream media, etc) so I'm not sure this comment is valid. Plus, Egypt's population alone without the diaspora is 100M; I'm not saying Egyptian football is followed by every single Egyptian, but it would make me rethink your comment.

Plus comparing a men's league to the planet women's football isn't very smart.

Edited July 25, 2021 by gam945

[XaW]

Just now, gam945 said:

I'd like SI to investigate on leagues played by location if possible, as I'm sure that for example most people playing with Gibraltarian teams are not from Gibraltar. So this argument may be rendered illogical.

As I said, I'd love for it to be included. I'm all for adding as many as possible personally, so I have no complaints about this argument. And even thought it's not ideal, at least the modding community often creates these leagues perfectly. So it is possible to play there. I'm downloading leagues every year to play in new countries.

2 minutes ago, gam945 said:

By hiding it I meant that it's potential -and probable- poor performance in terms of audience will be hidden as the game will still sell due to the men's football portion of the game.

But why have it as a stand-alone? I'd love to try it, and include in some challenges. Perhaps winning the CL with both the men's and the woman's team of a club. Or the World Cup with the same nation for both. And these things wouldn't be possible without buying two games. So for me that would make it more expensive. And the ones buying the women's version would also miss out on the men's version. We get in more content in the same game, so why the outrage?

[bazhsw]

@gam945 why do you assume only women will want to manage a women's team in FM?

I am male, it wouldn't stop me managing a women's team in much the same way the fact that I am British doesn't stop me managing a Mexican side.

Lots of men will manage a women's side, and also gaming (and football) demographics are opening up more and more to women.  This could open up a LOT of sales to SI.

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Much of the women's football following is artificial (free tickets, pushed by mainstream media, etc) so I'm not sure this comment is valid. Plus, Egypt's population alone without the diaspora is 100M; I'm not saying Egyptian football is followed by every single Egyptian, but it would make me rethink your comment.

Plus comparing a men's league to the planet women's football isn't very smart.

The idea that the majority of tickets are always given away as free is a lie, and it's covered by media because it's a sport.

[themadsheep2001]

4 minutes ago, bazhsw said:

@gam945 why do you assume only women will want to manage a women's team in FM?

I am male, it wouldn't stop me managing a women's team in much the same way the fact that I am British doesn't stop me managing a Mexican side.

Lots of men will manage a women's side, and also gaming (and football) demographics are opening up more and more to women.  This could open up a LOT of sales to SI.

I personally have a lot more interest in managing Manchester United women than managing in Mexico

[gam945]

16 minutes ago, XaW said:

As I said, I'd love for it to be included. I'm all for adding as many as possible personally, so I have no complaints about this argument. And even thought it's not ideal, at least the modding community often creates these leagues perfectly. So it is possible to play there. I'm downloading leagues every year to play in new countries.

But why have it as a stand-alone? I'd love to try it, and include in some challenges. Perhaps winning the CL with both the men's and the woman's team of a club. Or the World Cup with the same nation for both. And these things wouldn't be possible without buying two games. So for me that would make it more expensive. And the ones buying the women's version would also miss out on the men's version. We get in more content in the same game, so why the outrage?

Perhaps it comes down to the fact that I don't even consider it the same sport, the same that I don't consider street/freestyle football and association football the same sport.

I resisted when business overcame the sport of football in the end of 2010s, but now it seems politics will also overcome it and it may (I should say "will") be the last straw for me.

EDIT: I should also say that the outrage is to change the game for political/"inclusion" reasons while the game itself is still buggy and its evolution seems to go backwards. If SI can staff up for Women's football, they should have staffed up to fix the game. We're in 2021, and FM doesn't even have a feature for data visualization. Seems like we're still in 1980 with views full of number. That is only one example. Others brought up the regen faces, or graphics downgrade over time. Ultimately, adding women's football is either a waste of resources or a waste or potential new resources.

Edited July 25, 2021 by gam945

[McClane29]

It won't ruin the game (hopefully), but I can see the inclusion causing major issues bug wise.

I'm sure there have been many, but I can only recall Phil Neville as a prominent name in the men's game who has crossed over to women's football at a high level. Therefore, I do not want my management career to be bombarded with rumours of me going to manage in the women's game and I most certainly don't want 'Megan Rapinoe-esque' footballers commenting on issues with my club.

Let woman's football be forgotten about in my saves as the Greek Super League is and I'll be happy to continue as a happy FM customer/supporter. Let the gamer make their own decision. Don't force such propaganda on people, otherwise you'll lose them.

FM made a bold and wise decision to overlook much of the Covid pandemic in the release of FM21 to give fans a space to escape from all the madness. Therefore, don't create an edition of FM in the future which will deliberately be set out to be political and cause division. The addition of women's football to FM is more likely to cause resistance and have the opposite effect if forced upon loyal fans.

[grff]

16 minutes ago, gam945 said:

I'd like SI to investigate on leagues played by location if possible, as I'm sure that for example most people playing with Gibraltarian teams are not from Gibraltar. So this argument may be rendered illogical.

By hiding it I meant that it's potential -and probable- poor performance in terms of audience will be hidden as the game will still sell due to the men's football portion of the game.

Do you think that SI just randomly choose which leagues they add in the game? SI will know full well that the Gib league add on from Steam has only a small amount of downloads (9,400).

11 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Much of the women's football following is artificial (free tickets, pushed by mainstream media, etc) so I'm not sure this comment is valid. Plus, Egypt's population alone without the diaspora is 100M; I'm not saying Egyptian football is followed by every single Egyptian, but it would make me rethink your comment.

Now you're just making up things

At the end of the day, you could quite easily ignore the women's section of the game in the same way most users ignore sections of the world that aren't important to them (for me, the Asian, African, South American leagues).

Boycotting the series means you'll lose out playing FM whereas SI will just replace the boycotters with a whole new female customer base.

[XaW]

7 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Perhaps it comes down to the fact that I don't even consider it the same sport, the same that I don't consider street/freestyle football and association football the same sport.

I consider all kinds of football the same sport, and I wouldn't object if they had included futsal for that matter. I know at least one example of a player who went from futsal to professional football, so for me, I wouldn't mind it in FM. And calling women's football a different sport is rather sexist of you to be honest. Is women's 100 meter running a different sport than the men's? It's exactly the same, just divided.

9 minutes ago, gam945 said:

I resisted when business overcame the sport of football in the end of 2010s, but now it seems politics will also overcome it and it may (I should say "will") be the last straw for me.

And that's your prerogative. If you don't want to play a game that happens to include women's leagues, then that's your choice, I just don't understand why an optional inclusion would destroy the game for you.

[themadsheep2001]

I think lots of people are missing a key point as well, SI are unapologetically about inclusion (see gay pride being in the game and players coming out), and they always have been in and out of the game. They aren't asking for permission to do this, and they definitely won't be worried about losing gamers doing it

[gam945]

2 minutes ago, grff said:

Boycotting the series means you'll lose out playing FM whereas SI will just replace the boycotters with a whole new female customer base.

Well I certainly hope for Miles that the flux of new players -men and women- will be superior to the flux of boycotters; I don't wish SI misfortune but I won't either give my money to people who think I need to be educated. If it means I'll lose out on a game where 40% of the pleasure comes from the game, 40% from role playing in my head and 20% from ignoring all the multiple bugs, then that will be it.

[gam945]

3 minutes ago, XaW said:

I consider all kinds of football the same sport, and I wouldn't object if they had included futsal for that matter. I know at least one example of a player who went from futsal to professional football, so for me, I wouldn't mind it in FM. And calling women's football a different sport is rather sexist of you to be honest. Is women's 100 meter running a different sport than the men's? It's exactly the same, just divided.

As a matter of fact, I do consider men's sports a different sports than the women's equivalent. There may be some exceptions (chess comes first to my mind, athletics may be another example) but most of other sports I consider the men's version and the women's different sports. That's not a sexist point of view, I just consider the two versions too much distinct. This is in fact more true for team sports.

And yes, I wouldn't want a futsal version in FM also, so I'm pretty consistent.

[mikelfc8]

23 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Perhaps it comes down to the fact that I don't even consider it the same sport, the same that I don't consider street/freestyle football and association football the same sport.

I resisted when business overcame the sport of football in the end of 2010s, but now it seems politics will also overcome it and it may (I should say "will") be the last straw for me.

EDIT: I should also say that the outrage is to change the game for political/"inclusion" reasons while the game itself is still buggy and its evolution seems to go backwards. If SI can staff up for Women's football, they should have staffed up to fix the game. We're in 2021, and FM doesn't even have a feature for data visualization. Seems like we're still in 1980 with views full of number. That is only one example. Others brought up the regen faces, or graphics downgrade over time. Ultimately, adding women's football is either a waste of resources or a waste or potential new resources.

By which criteria, precisely, do you not consider it the same sport?

[obasa_G]

The way the words "politics" and "political" are thrown around in this thread is really funny. I am really trying to fathom how the introduction Women's football to FM is a "political" move or is ruining it.

You'd think people will be happy that the game is moving towards a more realistic representation of the global football scene.

 

[gam945]

7 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said:

By which criteria, precisely, do you not consider it the same sport?

Intensity, technique, tactical aspect, etc

As a matter of fact football is not even optimized for women. They would gain by having smaller goals, shorter periods, etc.

When you see that the USWNT or Australia's women get trashed by U15 boys, it pretty much says it all. I watched some "high-profile" women's football games and none were even near in terms of quality of yesterday's last 30 mins of yesterday's Bayern - Ajax preseason game, which players had an average age of 17-18 years old.

I'd bet that if we mixed men and women in football, at least the top 2 or 3 divisions per country would still be all men.

4 minutes ago, obasa_G said:

The way the words "politics" and "political" are thrown around in this thread is really funny. I am really trying to fathom how the introduction Women's football to FM is a "political" move or is ruining it.

You'd think people will be happy that the game is moving towards a more realistic representation of the global football scene.

 

Miles says it himself. It is driven by a political agenda of promoting women's football, it's not an economical-driven decision, neither a market-driven decision in terms of demand.

 

[mikelfc8]

3 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Intensity, technique, tactical aspect, etc

As a matter of fact football is not even optimized for women. They would gain by having smaller goals, shorter periods, etc.

When you see that the USWNT or Australia's women get trashed by U15 boys, it pretty much says it all. I watched some "high-profile" women's football games and none were even near in terms of quality of yesterday's last 30 mins of yesterday's Bayern - Ajax preseason game, which players had an average age of 17-18 years old.

I'd bet that if we mixed men and women in football, at least the top 2 or 3 divisions per country would still be all men.

Miles says it himself. It is driven by a political agenda of promoting women's football, it's not an economical-driven decision, neither a market-driven decision in terms of demand.

 

By the same crieria then, is non-league football a different sport?

Which football is intense, technical and tactical enough to be football?

Which football is not intense, technical and tactial enough to be football?

Edited July 25, 2021 by mikelfc8

[gam945]

1 minute ago, mikelfc8 said:

By the same crieria then, is non-league football a different sport?

Which football is intense, technical and tactical enough to be football?

Which football is not intense, technical and tactival enough to be football?

You need to compare it at the same levels, comparing non-league men's football to Arsenal Womens is aberrant (even though I'm sure that any non-league side would still beat the Arsenal ladies). Furthermore, the criteria I've listed are not exhaustive. 

[roykela]

1 hour ago, gam945 said:

I find it annoying -not only in FM- that men are pushed for political reasons to support women's football. Women don't watch football and don't play FM (compared to men) so basically men need to fill in for them. The fact that SI does not want to make a stand alone women's game and make it face the market tells a lot about women's football.

My sister watches football and played football. My mother watches football and was my "director of football" (that's what the equivalent would've been) when i was coaching a girl's team for 3 years, where my sister was also playing. The director was also female.
My grandmother watches football. I used to play Championship Manager with my girlfriend at the time; who also was a prominent left-back.
One of my relatives was up to the national youth side.
When there were football matches, tv or at the local stadium, everyone watched. 50/50 gender-wise.
Football, wherever i have gone, have always had interest from men and women.

Men don't need to fill in. Men need to stop killing women's interest in football.

Edited July 25, 2021 by roykela

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, gam945 said:

You need to compare it at the same levels, comparing non-league men's football to Arsenal Womens is aberrant (even though I'm sure that any non-league side would still beat the Arsenal ladies). Furthermore, the criteria I've listed are not exhaustive. 

The attendances for the women's top league are higher than Vanarama National. I posted the number earlier in this thread. So you are saying we should exclude more leagues then if they are not at the level of quality that you want?

[gam945]

Just now, roykela said:

My sister watches football and played football. My mother watches football and was my "director of football" (that's what the equivalent would've been) when i was coaching a girl's team for 3 years, where my sister was also playing. The director was also female.
My grandmother watches football. I used to play Championship Manager with my girlfriend at the time; who also was a prominent left-back.
One of relatives was up to the national youth side.
When there was football matches, tv or at the local stadium, everyone watched. 50/50 gender-wise.
Football, wherever i have gone, have always had interest from men and women.

Men don't need to fill in. Men need to stop killing women's interest in football.

Great, so SI could make a women's football stand alone game and make it face the market, because obviously women would fill in.

[bazhsw]

Essentially you are being sexist now.  You cannot claim that women's football is a different sport when they play by exactly the same rules with the same pitch as men.

In your head you say it is a different sport then call for changes to the women's game that simply are not necessary or desired.

It's been covered before but if you took a blinkered view of what football should look like based on subjective criteria like 'tactics', 'intensity' or 'technicality' you would exclude most football played all over the world and exclude most of historical football.

For instance, modern football has changed significantly from 30/40 years ago.  I imagine some would say today's game is nowhere near as intense as in the old days.  That doesn't invalidate modern football, and much of the football i grew up watching isn't invalidated because it was largely 'hoof it'.

It's a silly comparison

[GIMN]

10 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said:

By the same crieria then, is non-league football a different sport?

Which football is intense, technical and tactical enough to be football?

Which football is not intense, technical and tactial enough to be football?

Everyone knows that FIFA assesses the intensity quotient of every game to determine whether it meets the definition of football.  Quite famously, the Nottingham Forest-Birmingham game on Boxing Day 2020 failed to meet that criteria, and both teams got a 5 year ban from engaging in football related activities.

[gam945]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

The attendances for the women's top league are higher than Vanarama National. I posted the number earlier in this thread. So you are saying we should exclude more leagues then if they are not at the level of quality that you want?

(You only showed WSL attendances vs Vanarama, I don't recall seeing the German or Spanish women's division 1 attendances) Aberrant comparison, as the marketing to push the WSL to spectators isn't driven by the market but by specific political agendas, while the Vanarama's marketing follows the market's offer and demand.

[roykela]

2 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Great, so SI could make a women's football stand alone game and make it face the market, because obviously women would fill in.

Why standalone? The game is called Football Manager. Manager for a football team. Does not matter which gender it is.
Football is football.

[mikelfc8]

2 minutes ago, Geoff Newman said:

Everyone knows that FIFA assesses the intensity quotient of every game to determine whether it meets the definition of football.  Quite famously, the Nottingham Forest-Birmingham game on Boxing Day 2020 failed to meet that criteria, and both teams got a 5 year ban from engaging in football related activities.

Or course, how did I forget?

[gam945]

6 minutes ago, Geoff Newman said:

Everyone knows that FIFA assesses the intensity quotient of every game to determine whether it meets the definition of football.  Quite famously, the Nottingham Forest-Birmingham game on Boxing Day 2020 failed to meet that criteria, and both teams got a 5 year ban from engaging in football related activities.

Well I'd much enjoy the Nottingham Forest-Birmingham game on Boxing Day 2020 than Lyon ladies against Chelsea ladies, and by far. So you can troll if you want but the reality is that even Nottingham Forest's U15s would trash any women's top side.

[mikelfc8]

15 hours ago, gam945 said:

You need to compare it at the same levels, comparing non-league men's football to Arsenal Womens is aberrant (even though I'm sure that any non-league side would still beat the Arsenal ladies). Furthermore, the criteria I've listed are not exhaustive. 

I'm not comparing it, I'm applying the criteria of what makes football football, as defined by you.

Because, if you use criteria to dismiss the legitimacy of women's football, that also clearly apply to aspects of the men's game, but allow those to remain legitimate, then you are left with stone cold bigotry.

I hope I'm wrong, but it's up to you to provide criteria that apply ONLY to the women's game if you want to justify what, at the moment, looks unjustifiable.

Edited July 26, 2021 by mikelfc8

[obasa_G]

11 minutes ago, gam945 said:

 

Miles says it himself. It is driven by a political agenda of promoting women's football, it's not an economical-driven decision, neither a market-driven decision in terms of demand.

 

Are you sure you read the blog that was posted in the OP very well?

There was no "political agenda" involved when this decision was made; this was done to give equality to all and give a more accurate description of the football world.

Also, not every decision a company makes has to be economically driven. Companies can and make decisions that lead to the improvement of equality, environmental conditions, human welfare, etc.

[Tony Wright 747]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The idea that the majority of tickets are always given away as free is a lie, and it's covered by media because it's a sport.

You are right the majority of tickets are not given away free and I wouldn't agree that interest is artificial, but it is driven by low cost.  You can take a whole family to a WSL game for less than a single ticket to a premier league game

[bazhsw]

1 minute ago, gam945 said:

Well I'd much enjoy the Nottingham Forest-Birmingham game on Boxing Day 2020 than Lyon ladies against Chelsea ladies, and by far. So you can troll if you want but the reality is that even Nottingham Forest's U15s would trash any women's top side.

There is a certain irony to your trolling comment when pretty much everything you have said in this thread is pretty much trolling the inclusion of the women's leagues into FM and by extension women's sport, and since you carry on referring to 'politics' I can safely assume women as well.

So now that we have established that it IS the same game and we have established that subjective criteria you have invented for inclusion would exclude most of the current game and most football outside of the last ten years then you have moved onto 'who can beat who'.  I don't want to be harsh, but using THAT criteria would have a very small (and boring) FM game because now you are using 'who would beat who' as a self-determined boundary for inclusion.

You talk about boycotting and 'politics' but it is you who have made it 'political' when what 95% of the player base will see as 'brilliant - something else to do in the game'.

I have not seen a SINGLE remotely justifiable criticism of this decision that can't be traced back to 'I don't like and I am scared of girls and women'.

[kandersson]

I think it's an excellent (almost inevitable) decision for the game and the company, and I'd suggest the same if I was a decision maker at SI. Personally as a FM player I don't have much interest in this addition though others certainly will. I don't think it will change much for the development of the series (match engine, graphics, new features etc), honestly I see this mostly as a PR move - a very good one.

[gam945]

7 minutes ago, obasa_G said:

Are you sure you read the blog that was posted in the OP very well?

There was no "political agenda" involved when this decision was made; this was done to give equality to all and give a more accurate description of the football world.

Also, not every decision a company makes has to be economically driven. Companies can and make decisions that lead to the improvement of equality, environmental conditions, human welfare, etc.

 

Quote

There’s no hiding that there’s currently a glass ceiling for women’s football and we want to do what we can to help smash through it. We believe in equality for all and we want to be part of the solution. We want to be a part of the process that puts women’s football on an equal footing with the men’s game. We know that we’re not alone in this – the historic TV deal that Sky and the BBC recently agreed with WSL in England is proof of that – but we intend to do everything we can to get women’s football to where it deserves to be.

I call this a political agenda.