How we're introducing women's football into Football Manager

[Neil Brock]

Blog by Miles Jacobson on the multi-year project coming to a future version of Football Manager

Whenever I mention women’s football on social media, people inevitably respond by asking when we’re going to release a women’s football version of Football Manager. Up until now, I’ve always replied with vague answers such as “When we do it, we’ll do it properly”.

What I haven’t said, because we tend to keep our plans under wraps, is that we’ve been working on women’s football in the background for some time now. A few people inside football are aware of this, as we’ve been talking to them about it behind the scenes, but now I believe that the time is right to go public with our plans.

Before I get into the detail, though, I would like to make one thing incredibly clear… we have NO interest whatsoever in making a standalone women’s football version of FM.

What we are doing is adding women’s football to FM... one sport, one game. FM players will be able to move seamlessly from managing a men’s team to a women’s team and back again. Women’s football will be a part of the living, breathing world that constitutes every one of your FM saves; that world will just be whole lot bigger and a little more varied.

We also know that adding women’s football to Football Manager is going to cost millions and that the short-term return it delivers will be minimal. But that’s not the point.

There’s no hiding that there’s currently a glass ceiling for women’s football and we want to do what we can to help smash through it. We believe in equality for all and we want to be part of the solution. We want to be a part of the process that puts women’s football on an equal footing with the men’s game. We know that we’re not alone in this – the historic TV deal that Sky and the BBC recently agreed with WSL in England is proof of that – but we intend to do everything we can to get women’s football to where it deserves to be.

We know that our voice is very powerful and we want to use it for good.

Longer term, as the women’s game grows in popularity, the financial rewards may come, but at the moment we’re embarking on this journey because we know it’s the right thing to do.

So let’s dig a little into the details...

One request we’ve had over the years is to release a women’s database that works with the existing FM. This simply wouldn’t work, as there’s a lot more to adding women’s football to FM than simply replacing the male players with female players, but the question of women’s data is an interesting one, so let’s start there.

First of all, it’s going to take some time to build a comprehensive global database of women’s football. Our existing database has taken 28 years to build (so far) and there’s a lot of info in there that we need to research when adding just one team, let alone multiple leagues.

To get our women’s database right we will have to examine every single in-game attribute and define exactly how we judge the data; attributes such as pace, acceleration and agility will likely stay with the same range, but some attributes may need a different scale. These attributes also feed into our match engine of course, and work done in this area (for example, looking at height of players and how that may affect how they play – such as aiming shots higher if a goalkeeper is smaller) will be of benefit for the match engine overall.

And data, of course, is just one of many elements that are going to need careful consideration.

For example, we already have female character models in the game, but these currently only represent staff members – and our in-game staff models are relatively basic and require a limited number of animations. We have thousands of ‘motion captured’ animations for our male footballers and when you apply many of these animations onto female bodies… well… they kind of move like cowboys.

Women’s body shapes are different to men’s and so is their bone structure, so we have no choice but to go back to the beginning and recreate all of our existing motion captured animation data using female players. That’s not just a case of going into a motion capture studio for a couple of days either – it takes months to clean up and perfect the data generated by each motion capture session and get it looking right in the match engine.

Our in-game female 3D models, historically, are also not as advanced as the male versions and women’s football kits are also different (once again due to those different body shapes) so there’s more work to be done there too. Our art and animation teams have been growing over the last couple of years with this extra work in mind.

It doesn’t stop there either… the transfer system in women’s football is also different to the men’s, as are the financial and wage structures. We will also have to accommodate the unique rules of many of the women’s leagues.

Then there are other questions that we have to ask ourselves, such as how detailed should we go initially? There is a lot of existing literature available about the impact of the menstrual cycle on training and injuries, but how do we incorporate this without it having a major effect on gameplay? And what about pregnancy? If we have pregnant players and staff in game, do we need different 3D models for the different stages?

And then there’s the in-game text and translation to be considered. You can already play the game as a male or female manager, so most staff ‘strings’ (the term used for phrases in game that refer to a character, whether playable or otherwise) are already in place for both male and female characters. However, as all of the current in-game footballers are male, all of the strings relating to them are gender specific.

This leaves us with more than 100,000 strings to rewrite… and then translate into 19 languages (which works out to be approximately 3,000,000 words). This is a simpler task for some languages than it is for others; Danish, for example, has no adjectival agreement or other gender-specific grammar considerations, so we should in theory be able to batch translate ‘he’ to ‘she’ (for example) and then go through each string via the ‘localisation QA’ process to see what was missed. With many other languages (including French and German) that’s simply not possible and each string will have to be retranslated from scratch.

That process is going to take up a lot of time, as well as generating the bulk of the cost.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this piece, we’ve been working on this project for quite some time already. I’ve had many, many conversations with people who work in all areas of women’s football and have built up relationships with some amazing people in the sport who will be helping us realise this dream.

In terms of practical steps, we’ve already completed our first two motion capture sessions with the London-based twin professionals, Rosie and Mollie Kmita. Given the restrictions applied to motion capture during a pandemic it was essential that we were able to work with two people who shared a ‘bubble’ and Rosie and Mollie provided the perfect solution, as well as being fantastic footballers. This, of course, is just the start of the ‘mocap’ process and there will be plenty more sessions carried out over the coming months, including specific goalkeeper sessions.

One member of the SI team who is already deeply engrossed in this project is our newly-appointed head of research for women’s football, Tina Keech. Tina, a qualified coach and former head of research and analysis at Smartodds, has already started the process of building our women’s database.

Our design team is about to start work on taking the information we’ve gathered to date and turning that into specific tasks and a full design document. As with most of FM’s features, that document will give us a multi-year roadmap for engineering tasks. Nothing in FM is ever finished – there is always more we can add – and the same will be the case with women’s football. It won’t be a case of just adding it, then forgetting about it, but it will continue to grow along with the rest of the world that we create for you to manage in.

Of course, many of the tasks mentioned so far can run simultaneously, which will shorten the timeline, but we are realistic that bringing women’s football to FM is going to be a multi-year project. At this stage we don’t know exactly how long the process will take so we can’t say exactly which version of FM will see women’s football make its debut, but rest assured that our plan is to make this happen as soon as we possibly can, whilst ensuring that you are still getting all the features you’d expect from new versions of FM by adding resources to the existing team.

I mentioned earlier in the blog that the cost of this project will be substantial. To help offset some of those costs we have already started conversations with some potential commercial partners who share our vision and who will be able to offer financial help in return for a wide integration of their brand into FM.

But we’re also committed to being a commercial partner for women’s football. We have ongoing partnerships with AFC Wimbledon Ladies & Girls and Watford Women as part of our deals with their men’s teams. But that’s not enough. So, today I’m also proud to announce that we’ve signed a commercial partnership agreement for the 2021/22 season with Leicester City Women, which will see FM branding feature on the dugout and interview boards for the club.

I’d like to finish by saying that I hope these blogs can become a semi-regular feature. We know that last year’s piece which explained how COVID 19 was going to be handled in FM21 was very popular and many of you appreciated the transparency, so we’ll look to ‘pull back the curtain’ a little more in the future.

Thanks for reading – I hope you all join in with us on what is going to be a fascinating journey.

Cheers,

Miles

[dbrown6]

This is a really good feature to do. I look forward to this in the upcoming game. 

 

[Spedding]

42 minutes ago, dbrown6 said:

This is a really good feature to do. I look forward to this in the upcoming game. 

 

Not in the next years fm. Still a couple of years of.

[roykela]

Great news. Keep up the good work.

[drtrick]

How will this affect game performance?

Will it be like turning on / off different leagues and choosing the level of detail? There'll be a lot of players in the database that you can't use at your club so will just be taking up space, right?

[Neil Brock]

22 minutes ago, drtrick said:

How will this affect game performance?

Will it be like turning on / off different leagues and choosing the level of detail? There'll be a lot of players in the database that you can't use at your club so will just be taking up space, right?

Obviously there's still lots to be decided in how exactly everything will work, but you'll still have the option to create a game to suit your playing needs. Much like how you can select certain leagues and customise in terms of database size and what's included at game start. 

[drtrick]

Fair enough, thanks very much.

[dmurph]

How will the editor work for this? Will the women's leagues be in their own category to select or will it fall under the nation they are based in?

[Neil Brock]

11 minutes ago, dmurph said:

How will the editor work for this? Will the women's leagues be in their own category to select or will it fall under the nation they are based in?

As said in the blog, there's still a lot of work to do so it's too soon to be commenting on those kinds of specifics. 

[McBride]

I'm really pleased! It's an expansion of leagues, which is always welcome and it's another way of playing the game and making a career.  Prepare however for the pointless defensiveness and mock outrage of some.

[kevhamster]

Fantastic news.  This can only be a positive thing for FM.

[Mr Tonio]

I'm so happy. I've been wanting this for a long time now. FM, to me, is a narrative based game. Imagine a successful manager, after wining a world cup, saying "ok, i've done it all with men, let's start anew in women's league" Or vice-versa. This is fantastic.

 

[Bleb Blebster]

But why. Seriously why?

 

Why don't you try and fix the problems (let's try one year without 3 patches before the game runs more or less stable) rather than introducing soemthing that will quickly fade away. Sure people will probably try and play it for a short period of time, but will lose interest, just like in real life, as womens football is boring, slow, not that technincally and just well boring.

 

But why not introduce the whole lot from the beginning? Let's say from the age of 5 or 6,both girls and boys so we can get the proper feeling of everything. of and don't fprget to add in the deaf leagues, the gay leagues etc etc.

[XaW]

16 minutes ago, Bleb Blebster said:

But why. Seriously why?

Because they want to. I mean it's their property to do as they please.

17 minutes ago, Bleb Blebster said:

Why don't you try and fix the problems (let's try one year without 3 patches before the game runs more or less stable) rather than introducing soemthing that will quickly fade away. Sure people will probably try and play it for a short period of time, but will lose interest, just like in real life, as womens football is boring, slow, not that technincally and just well boring.

I think you need to take another look at it. Women's football wasn't much several years ago, but it has come leaps and bounds. While it will not compare well to the top men's leagues in terms of tempo, it's far better than many give them credit for. I would compare it to the MLS. Why did SI add the MLS when they did? Football was not big the US at the time, and it had to create loads of new mechanics (draft system++), and who would play it? Some will try, but they'll lose interest, right? Well, MSL is one of the quickest growing leagues, and more and more fans in the US watch football now. Was the inclusion in FM the biggest thing? No, but it was a piece in the puzzle. And SI have even said they want to do this in the same way for women's football. If you don't want to play women's football, you can do the same as if you don't like the MLS; just don't load the leagues.

21 minutes ago, Bleb Blebster said:

But why not introduce the whole lot from the beginning? Let's say from the age of 5 or 6,both girls and boys so we can get the proper feeling of everything. of and don't fprget to add in the deaf leagues, the gay leagues etc etc.

Well, there's the obvious child protective laws for anyone younger than 16. So we can at the very least dismiss that. And I'm not familiar with any professional deaf leagues or gay leagues. But you knew that, and if you didn't, then you really need to read upon things before making comment such as this. This being your first post on this forum, I'd advise you to read up on the rules before continuing like this.

[-Jef-]

I, for one, am extremely excited about this. Gonna make for a heck of a role playing journeyWOman save. Start as a woman manager, without any experience or badges and work your way in the women's world and then take the plunge in the men's world. The unthinkable! A woman who is conquering the male's world! In football nonetheless! Will we get an opportunity from a big name? Or will we have to go down into the dirt of Italian football to get a glimpse of men's professional football management scene? Definitely gonna be the only long term save when it comes out.

[Federico]

33 minuti fa, -Jef- ha scritto:

I, for one, am extremely excited about this. Gonna make for a heck of a role playing journeyWOman save. Start as a woman manager, without any experience or badges and work your way in the women's world and then take the plunge in the men's world. The unthinkable! A woman who is conquering the male's world! In football nonetheless! Will we get an opportunity from a big name? Or will we have to go down into the dirt of Italian football to get a glimpse of men's professional football management scene? Definitely gonna be the only long term save when it comes out.

You can create a female profile since quite some time I think.

Edit: @themadsheep2001 thanks for cleaning up

[themadsheep2001]

People will have their different views and that's fine, but regardless of how people feel about the feature, we absolutely do not tolerate sexist, or other discriminatory/derogative posts. Most people have been respectful either way, and that's great and very much appreciated, but a few of you apparently need reminding to be decent human beings. People not being able to abide by the house rules on decency will find their ability to post, or if necessary, their ability to be a member of this forum, removed.

[pikeal]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

People will have their different views and that's fine, but regardless of how people feel about the feature, we absolutely do not tolerate sexist, or other discriminatory/derogative posts. Most people have been respectful either way, and that's great and very much appreciated, but a few you apparently need reminding to be decent human beings. People not being able to abide by the house rules on decency will find their ability to post, or if necessary, their ability to be a member of this forum, removed.

Are you referring to my question? I see it has been deleted. Didn't think it was that inappropriate. Apologies if it offended anyone.

[-Jef-]

45 minutes ago, Federico said:

You can create a female profile since quite some time I think.

Edit: @themadsheep2001 thanks for cleaning up

Yes, I am aware of that but the story of being a basically woman Sarri and then moving to male dominated spectrum of football is not something we can do. To conquer female world and then a male one. Think you misunderstood me.

[phd_angel]

Despite Miles' self-aggrandizing message about "the right thing to do", there may be some business opportunity in tapping the female market.

HOWEVER, after all these years, FM remains incredibly flawed (glitches, graphics, stupid AI, tremendous sluggishness, etc.). I'd much rather see the extra resources allocated toward FIXING the game, rather than expanding into something that will keep delivering subpar quality, not to mention a possible higher price.

I therefore can only agree with critical posts and concerns in this thread.

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by phd_angel

[themadsheep2001]

Looking forward to it, anything that brings more immersive football is a winner for me. Aren't many other features that I'm particularly interested in, so working toward a major project like this while doing quality of life improvements to existing feature sets is always a win in my book

[Bababui]

The womans version of FM should be a stand alone. The way its being planned now, the sunken costs will be passed on to the traditional FM fans and either there will be fewer developers to work on the original game or they will increase the price. As a stand alone the game would be able to grow organically and separately from the main game and the losses can be written off.

[Federico]

4 ore fa, -Jef- ha scritto:

Yes, I am aware of that but the story of being a basically woman Sarri and then moving to male dominated spectrum of football is not something we can do. To conquer female world and then a male one. Think you misunderstood me.

I truly hope we won't have to load both databases. Especially if one is not even interested on having a look at it, like me in example.

[themadsheep2001]

29 minutes ago, Bababui said:

The womans version of FM should be a stand alone. The way its being planned now, the sunken costs will be passed on to the traditional FM fans and either there will be fewer developers to work on the original game or they will increase the price. As a stand alone the game would be able to grow organically and separately from the main game and the losses can be written off.

Or, they will hire more developers to cover the expansion, and the game will likely be sold at the same costs as usual. Which has been the case for every single time they have expanded into a new area (like when they massively expanded motion capturing for the men's game)

[Federico]

10 minuti fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

Or, they will hire more developers to cover the expansion, and the game will likely be sold at the same costs as usual. Which has been the case for every single time they have expanded into a new area (like when they massively expanded motion capturing for the men's game)

I think it should be handled and managed separately, as DLC in example. I don't want to download or update more data that I will never use anyway.

[Bababui]

9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Or, they will hire more developers to cover the expansion, and the game will likely be sold at the same costs as usual. Which has been the case for every single time they have expanded into a new area (like when they massively expanded motion capturing for the men's game)

Maybe, maybe not. The female version of the game will pretty much have to be a separate version because of all the differences in ME, DB and economics. This will make the game a larger download and taxing on people with lesser computers. The only logical reason it is being pasted to the main game is to protect it from current market forces. However, if they are serious about backing it, release it as a stand alone and let it grow slowly on its own merits.

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, Federico said:

I think it should be handled and managed separately, as DLC in example. I don't want to download or update more data that I will never use anyway.

There will be leagues you never play, that you download anyway. There's absolutely no point worry about size when you wouldn't even know how big it is in relation to the game. Also it's more effort and defeats their point making it DLC

[themadsheep2001]

4 minutes ago, Bababui said:

Maybe, maybe not. The female version of the game will pretty much have to be a separate version because of all the differences in ME, DB and economics. This will make the game a larger download and taxing on people with lesser computers. The only logical reason it is being pasted to the main game is to protect it from current market forces. However, if they are serious about backing it, release it as a stand alone and let it grow slowly on its own merits.

Neil has already made this point, it's also about making a growing area, grow better. You don't do that by isolating it. Again, you have no idea what size that part of the game would be. Much as there are leagues you download as part of the game and never use. The game is already hugely forgiving on computers, way less demanding spec wise than other modern games, so not sure that's a valid argument

[Federico]

1 minuto fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

There will be leagues you never play, that you download anyway.

I play all the leagues on multiple savegames.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Federico said:

I play all the leagues on multiple savegames.

But not everyone does. Still data downloaded thats never used. It's not different here. 

[Bababui]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Neil has already made this point, it's also about making a growing area, grow better. You don't do that by isolating it. Again, you have no idea what size that part of the game would be. Much as there are leagues you download and never use. 

Since animations, database, match engine and economics/where players come from are all different from the current game Im not sure why you would say this. Its a different game.

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, Bababui said:

Since animations, database, match engine and economics/where players come from are all different from the current game Im not sure why you would say this. Its a different game.

We have no idea what the size is going to look like, so it's a false argument. Either way they have no intention of marketing it as anything other one footballing world, which it is. FM as a game size is relatively small and demand lite. Would say this is one of the weirder reasons for not having it

[RinusFM]

Sounds good to me. Personally I think the money should go into making current FM better. But I can understand if you do keeping that philosophy  you keep postponing  Woman's football because FM will never be 'perfect.' Anyway looking forward to Woman's football, but personally I think it will be kind of gimmicky and never be used fully by a huge percentage of the players. Curious what it will do for the new versions of Football Manager. Keep it up!

[Bababui]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

We have no idea what the size is going to look like, so it's a false argument. Either way they have no intention of marketing it as anything other one footballing world, which it is. 

It certainly isnt a false argument since the existing framework of the game wont support a female footballing universe. Its one you dont agree with.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Bababui said:

It certainly isnt a false argument since the existing framework of the game wont support a female footballing universe. Its one you dont agree with.

It's a false argument because you have no idea how big the new framework will be, we have no idea how much is separate, or crosses from legacy. We only really know what concepts they are aiming for, and even they are evolving. 

[Federico]

3 minuti fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

But not everyone does. Still data downloaded thats never used. It's not different here. 

But if you say there's already so much unused data we currently have, why increase the amount of these useless data? I'm not against it, but I hope that when it's the day it won't be a mandatory unilateral choice.

[Bababui]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

It's a false argument because you have no idea how big the new framework will be, we have no idea how much is separate, or crosses from legacy. We only really know what concepts they are aiming for, and even they are evolving. 

We know because Miles told us. Animations will have to be different, the match engine will have to be different to represent how women play, the DB will have to increase to add all the new players/staff etc. It will be two parallel games.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Bababui said:

We know because Miles told us. Animations will have to be different, the match engine will have to be different to represent how women play, the DB will have to increase to add all the new players/staff etc. It will be two parallel games.

Football Manager is 6GB, that is tiny for a game (just looked at GTA 5 with is the game beneath it on my steam, and that is 101Gb). A critique based on (currently unknown) size feels weak

[santy001]

If the game moves beyond the space you can afford to give up on a hard drive, or it moves beyond a data amount you can download at the levels FM uses then its unfortunate but it was going to happen at some point if you have such low overheads.

Seems weird to worry about this when you use all leagues in the game. That alone uses a whole host of inefficient resources on your computer because you don't actively play in every league at the same time. There are also some arguments to be made that running every league compromises the game a bit because at certain points the transfer system and regen systems are impacted by the overall population. 

When it comes to stuff like the ME, I'm completely taking a stab in the dark but I suspect that through the use of things like .json files the game will source variables for the mens and womens ME. Animation sets are presumably loaded on demand when going into a match, or determining which set should be loaded based on the active league you're participating in. 

------

It's worth remembering that there are numerous multi-year development plans in place with FM at any given time. It's highly unusual that SI would announce one this early, but at the same time staff roles need to be recruited for and so it wouldn't be something that could be kept a secret either.

There are some that we probably see being iterated on yearly (animations for example), some that will appear in the months leading up to release when its listed as one of the major features for the game that we haven't heard about before. If there's a new ME at any point in the future it won't have been 9 months work from the last patch of the previous year to the new game, it would be the result of a number of years of development. 

I would also point out that while some are saying it should be a standalone release, that would somewhat provide an easy-out. It would mean that then if its still not commercially viable after arbitrary time period Y development could be culled and it would offer an excuse of "Well we tried, but it didn't work out". Firstly, it would force SI down a more degenerate revenue developing path if they wanted to try and keep it viable for longer. I don't know how other people feel, but I'm rather tired of the games companies who seem to think that any of my disposable income not spent on them is their lost revenue. Secondly, if its something you genuinely believe in you would put it into the main game to expand the game in that direction, and it would highlight it far more as a social issue at that stage if the decision was made to pull the content out. It's a commitment that requires more than just "well it doesn't make enough money" in the future to stop doing. 

[FrazT]

It is clearly worth repeating that whether you agree or disagree with the direction that SI have proposed, the forum rules have to be respected and so any other posts that are personally abusive to any other users or SI staff will be quickly removed and infractions will follow.

[Bababui]

Right now in the mens game their is a forgotten continent, a vast black hole stretching from Zimbabwe to the Mediterranean. I wonder why SI doesnt value African football?

When I suggested the womans game as a standalone I wasnt implying that they let it wither and die. Launch the game, let it find its niche and stick with it. The licensing fees should be significantly less so the game could actually be a lot cheaper than the main game.

[Novem9]

Will this affect the performance of the current tasks?

• DB issues - for example Almeria's owner db issue existing 2 years already. I wrote few times - no changes. A lot of issues like this in many leagues for years
• Interface issues - it's old, core is rarity, bugs and resets happening not often, but happening
• Processing based on old technology still as I remember 
• Match Engine stadium corners were fixed in fm21 only, but issue existed since FM18
• Match Engine 2d tribunes still existing in replays only, since FM18
• etc, I will not try to remember other current issues

I'm not against women's football, although I'm not interested in it at all, but I'm worried if this will affect the productivity of more urgent tasks? Developers have made it clear in past that resource is very limited and many problems have to be ignored as secondary,

Cheers!

[Spurs08]

1 hour ago, Bababui said:

Right now in the mens game their is a forgotten continent, a vast black hole stretching from Zimbabwe to the Mediterranean. I wonder why SI doesnt value African football?

When I suggested the womans game as a standalone I wasnt implying that they let it wither and die. Launch the game, let it find its niche and stick with it. The licensing fees should be significantly less so the game could actually be a lot cheaper than the main game.

African club football is sadly a bit of a mess. Even in the highest-profile leagues, there is constant match-fixing, corruption and bizarre rule changes. Add to that it's a nightmare to research, and sadly it probably isn't a priority. There's a reason every remotely decent African footballer leaves the continent ASAP.

Remarkable story of final day match-fixing plot, two intentional own goals and criminal probe - Mirror Online

[Federico]

3 ore fa, santy001 ha scritto:

If the game moves beyond the space you can afford to give up on a hard drive, or it moves beyond a data amount you can download at the levels FM uses then its unfortunate but it was going to happen at some point if you have such low overheads.

Seems weird to worry about this when you use all leagues in the game. That alone uses a whole host of inefficient resources on your computer because you don't actively play in every league at the same time. There are also some arguments to be made that running every league compromises the game a bit because at certain points the transfer system and regen systems are impacted by the overall population. 

When it comes to stuff like the ME, I'm completely taking a stab in the dark but I suspect that through the use of things like .json files the game will source variables for the mens and womens ME. Animation sets are presumably loaded on demand when going into a match, or determining which set should be loaded based on the active league you're participating in. 

------

It's worth remembering that there are numerous multi-year development plans in place with FM at any given time. It's highly unusual that SI would announce one this early, but at the same time staff roles need to be recruited for and so it wouldn't be something that could be kept a secret either.

There are some that we probably see being iterated on yearly (animations for example), some that will appear in the months leading up to release when its listed as one of the major features for the game that we haven't heard about before. If there's a new ME at any point in the future it won't have been 9 months work from the last patch of the previous year to the new game, it would be the result of a number of years of development. 

I would also point out that while some are saying it should be a standalone release, that would somewhat provide an easy-out. It would mean that then if its still not commercially viable after arbitrary time period Y development could be culled and it would offer an excuse of "Well we tried, but it didn't work out". Firstly, it would force SI down a more degenerate revenue developing path if they wanted to try and keep it viable for longer. I don't know how other people feel, but I'm rather tired of the games companies who seem to think that any of my disposable income not spent on them is their lost revenue. Secondly, if its something you genuinely believe in you would put it into the main game to expand the game in that direction, and it would highlight it far more as a social issue at that stage if the decision was made to pull the content out. It's a commitment that requires more than just "well it doesn't make enough money" in the future to stop doing. 

But if a women database will be included within FM, won't it affect the processing and progression of the game, whatever my initial setup?

Also, if load few Leagues don't expect realistic outputs in terms of reality because of the simulated ME.

But don't play too many or you compromise the market system and transfers.

Is there a correct amount of leagues I can play safely to have a game pretty much realistic?

[santy001]

@Novem9 SI have a workflow in place for fixing issues and the harsh reality is some will get put back because there isn't enough time or there isn't the ability to fix them (without in turn fixing something else) in a reasonable time frame. Of course you can wonder if it will have an impact but it likely wouldn't for a few reasons that I know of, off the bat.

The staff that work on the interface, probably won't have anything to do in regards to the implementation of womens football until the version of FM it is actually appearing in. 

Data issues, you need to persuade researchers that a change is warranted. If its something opinion based about any individual, then the researcher gets the final word. 

It's hard to know where the dividing lines are as a player of the game, but focus on your concerns and explain what is wrong with them. It may take time but in the end it should be resolved. 

-----

I would just like to point out for everyone, any aspect about the game you dislike is perfectly valid. State what you dislike and why, that is far and away the most helpful thing you can do about any issue with the game that bothers you. You don't need to try and diagnose it or apply a reason why you think it is that way because then it devalues your own criticism and muddies the waters. Doesn't mean you'll get your way with things, but it can be judged on its own merits then. 

[santy001]

3 minutes ago, Federico said:

But if a women database will be included within FM, won't it affect the processing and progression of the game, whatever my initial setup?

Also, if load few Leagues don't expect realistic outputs in terms of reality because of the simulated ME.

But don't play too many or you compromise the market system and transfers.

Is there a correct amount of leagues I can play safely to have a game pretty much realistic?

In regards to the first point, I guess it depends on the implementation but I highly doubt you'd be forced to run the womens leagues much in the same way you aren't forced to run the French leagues and so on. 

More generally though, smaller DB's tend to have higher transfer fees & poorer players getting picked up for top teams who then fall by the wayside. Larger DB's tend to have too many players going on frees, lower transfer fees since more options are available. Then other considerations like detail levels come into play and it starts to get real complicated.

It's hard to find a sweet spot, I've seen some threads pop-up about it over time might be worth searching for them. I tend to vary my game setup based upon the league I'm going to be prioritising playing in. 

[Federico]

8 minuti fa, santy001 ha scritto:

@Novem9 SI have a workflow in place for fixing issues and the harsh reality is some will get put back because there isn't enough time or there isn't the ability to fix them (without in turn fixing something else) in a reasonable time frame. Of course you can wonder if it will have an impact but it likely wouldn't for a few reasons that I know of, off the bat.

Now this should be really stick at the top of every discussion

1 minuto fa, santy001 ha scritto:

In regards to the first point, I guess it depends on the implementation but I highly doubt you'd be forced to run the womens leagues much in the same way you aren't forced to run the French leagues and so on. 

More generally though, smaller DB's tend to have higher transfer fees & poorer players getting picked up for top teams who then fall by the wayside. Larger DB's tend to have too many players going on frees, lower transfer fees since more options are available. Then other considerations like detail levels come into play and it starts to get real complicated.

I can't really see any problem on having a downloadable women database content, just like what we do with the editor or the resource achiever.

[Novem9]

6 минут назад, santy001 сказал:

Data issues, you need to persuade researchers that a change is warranted. If its something opinion based about any individual, then the researcher gets the final word. 

 

I believe wrong/duplicated home-away kits and new owner wrong parametr 18 (probably it 180, but for now suggar daddy left club quickly second FM lol) is resonable changes which ignored systematically

 

7 минут назад, santy001 сказал:

because there isn't enough time or there isn't the ability to fix them (without in turn fixing something else) in a reasonable time frame.

omg I just wrote that SI have no much time for all issues and you just said the same? Why?

Another answer is in the style of a politician in this forum, just bla bla bla and many likes from other moderators. Only Neil Brock try to answer something specific there are 

[Travis Bickle]

I'll explain something I am personally disappointed about. 

When I've emailed SI in the past (and to be fair, I am talking 3-5 years ago) asking about the inclusion of other leagues, I've been told that they aren't willing to add leagues that they don't think people will play. I've also been told it adds to testing time to check whether a new league would be compatible with the existing game. 

Now when it comes to 'inclusion'...

There's only one African league in the whole game. No Egypt, no Morocco, no Nigeria etc. I wonder what evidence there is that the women's leagues in say FM23 would have more people playing it than the Egyptian league?

We're missing leagues in Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay and Venezuela which would greatly improve the South American experience.

The Cypriot league is not in the game despite being a top 20 ranked UEFA league for a decade or more now. There's no Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan despite the fact both countries have improved a lot recently. Even some of the excluded Baltic (Lithuania) and Balkan (Montenegro) countries could be an interesting addition.  

Obviously no Japan but I understand the licensing issues there. 

No Middle-Eastern leagues at all...No UAE, no Qatar, no Bahrain, no Iran, no Saudi Arabia, even though these leagues have pretty decent commercial pull and a number of good players there. 

Furthermore, at least one major European league seems to have a serious bug every year. 

What I'm trying to say is...the women's game is a nice addition and I commend SI for what they are trying to do, but it feels like: 

1) You could apply the 'inclusion' argument to African or Middle-Eastern football. Africa and the Middle-East is vastly under-represented in the game. Morocco objectively has a better league than Iceland for example. 

2) I am skeptical in the long-term how popular the woman's database will be, and worried if development time will be taken away from the parts of the game most people will play. 

3) I would really rather they focused on including more nations/leagues in the men's game first. 

This is obviously just my opinion. Others will disagree and that's fine. And I absolutely do not mean any disrespect to SI or women's football, I'm just expressing how I feel. 

P.S Yes I know you can add leagues in the Editor but as someone who has made editor files, it takes a lot of work. Adding multiple playable edited league can cause instability. And it doesn't change the lack of research for leagues not in the vanilla game. 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Travis Bickle

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

I believe wrong/duplicated home-away kits and new owner wrong parametr 18 (probably it 180, but for now suggar daddy left club quickly second FM lol) is resonable changes which ignored systematically

 

omg I just wrote that SI have no much time for all issues and you just said the same? Why?

Another answer is in the style of a politician in this forum, just bla bla bla and many likes from other moderators. Only Neil Brock try to answer something specific there are 

He's tried to answer as best he can, there's absolutely no need for you to be so rude and dismissive. If you cannot post respectfully, then please refrain from posting.