Never seen a player dribble round a goalkeeper...?

[Arkim]

So it's possible to have a GK receive a red card in the game (calculated/simulated) but not in the match engine? 

[Svenc]

11 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Collision avoidance works just fine, but there are no actual collisions in the game. That's why it can't happen. It's not a matter of something that hasn't been fixed. It's that collisions don't exist and it'll require a massive re-write to add.

That's a good point. Whilst the inclusion of this addressed defending issues of older iterations, so that off the ball forwards wouldn't walk straight through markers to pick up through balls (couldn't be defended), it's just that, technically... it's not actually a possible collision of players, it's that in the play it seems recognized that a player is in front of the forward and thus he runs around him, rather than straight through when making that off the ball movement. So that he can't magically pick up a through ball and say LOL to the defenders.

Wonder whether that is connected to how you can still get so many crapshots off. If everybody playing "statistically" would see how poor their shots were on average, or actually creating little to begin with, then that would ease some of the rage quits. As that is still possible, including 25+ shots matches were barely a single one is taken in actually space, this will remain. The worst  extreme approaches not only pile up those shot counts (with the odd attempt inevitably being flagged clear-cut or half chance by the sheer virtue of quantity) they are leaky at the back too. Opponents consistently having far better shot conversions is a given then.

On the topic at hand, to me this is about limitations of modelling finishing techniques. It seems odd that there is a PPM for this on occasion... I went through some highlights uploaded half a decade ago (time flies when you're football managing, but goals of that 0:13 kind are certainly rare by now (loved that forward on that save. )
 

The "Tries tricks" PPM was pretty funny too. ;-)

 

 

[Guest]

There's a lot that doesn't happen, although the game gives you every indication that it should.

 

1) Goalies don't distribute quickly (even though the match engine gives you an option and they are even able to develop a flat bullet throw).

2) Nobody tries overhead kicks (even though there is a PPM for it).

3) Strikers don't round keepers (despite the PPM).

4) Lobs. Well, in my view, these DO happen, but they are exceedingly rare. Much more rare than they should be.

 

Never seen #1, #2 or #3. I agree that #2 should be rather rare, but during the course of a season, I would expect to see at least a few.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Arkim said:

So it's possible to have a GK receive a red card in the game (calculated/simulated) but not in the match engine? 

Keepsr can be booked & sent off in the full match engine but only for handling the ball outside the area.

[DP]

Which begs the question, do you actually get a more realistic game world if you turn the full sim off? 

 

this game ffs. Sigh. 

[DP]

18 minutes ago, Barside said:

Keepsr can be booked & sent off in the full match engine but only for handling the ball outside the area.

I don't even think this is the case anymore. Match engine has now been tuned to the point where it cannot happen. Unless you have an example in fm17? Last time I saw this was about fm13 I think. 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, DP said:

Which begs the question, do you actually get a more realistic game world if you turn the full sim off? 

 

this game ffs. Sigh. 

Simple answer, no.

[Dagenham_Dave]

On a similar note, has anyone actually seen a keeper punch the ball? All keepers have the 'tendency to punch' stat, but I don't think I've ever seen it in all the versions of the game. 

[Guest]

Not that I recall, they seem to either stay on their & let the dfenders deal with high balls or come out & cleanly catch the it.

[Sudodoodo]

I remember it happening a bit more often in the old FMs that were only in 2D. I remember I had a save where Thierry Henry had it as a PPM and would do it on occasion.

[Arkim]

6 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

There's a lot that doesn't happen, although the game gives you every indication that it should.

 

1) Goalies don't distribute quickly (even though the match engine gives you an option and they are even able to develop a flat bullet throw).

2) Nobody tries overhead kicks (even though there is a PPM for it).

3) Strikers don't round keepers (despite the PPM).

4) Lobs. Well, in my view, these DO happen, but they are exceedingly rare. Much more rare than they should be.

 

Never seen #1, #2 or #3. I agree that #2 should be rather rare, but during the course of a season, I would expect to see at least a few.

2) I had this happen against me just a few days ago;

So it's definitely in the game, just maybe not as often as we'd like. 

[Guest]

@Arkim: That's superb! Thank you. Overheads kick ought to be rather rare. I'm not sure how often they happen in real life, but would it be realistic to guess that in the English Premier League, we perhaps see one or two per week? (I don't mean a *goal*, simply an attempt will do.)

 

And so, I challenge anyone to come forth with a video or a pkm of

1) quick throw from a goalie

2) goalie punching the ball

3) striker rounding the keeper

4) someone lobbing the keeper.

 

I will be very happy to be proven wrong in all of these. I think I've seen ONE lob, but I'm not sure. The rest, never. #1 and #2, especially, should be seen in basically every match.

[Cougar2010]

40 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

@Arkim: That's superb! Thank you. Overheads kick ought to be rather rare. I'm not sure how often they happen in real life, but would it be realistic to guess that in the English Premier League, we perhaps see one or two per week? (I don't mean a *goal*, simply an attempt will do.)

 

And so, I challenge anyone to come forth with a video or a pkm of

1) quick throw from a goalie

2) goalie punching the ball

3) striker rounding the keeper

4) someone lobbing the keeper.

 

I will be very happy to be proven wrong in all of these. I think I've seen ONE lob, but I'm not sure. The rest, never. #1 and #2, especially, should be seen in basically every match.

1. No, might be tactics related.  If it happens you probably need an attack duty on the keeper and maybe even an attacking team mentality.

2. I have quite a lot but it seems like a long time since so probably a different version from at least a couple of years ago.

3. Yes, scored one the other night.  The animation for it is perhaps confusing as its more knock the ball at an angle as the keeper comes out.

4. Don't think I've seen one scored but I have seen several attempts from various positions.

 

If I remember when I see them I'll upload something.

[Silver Twilight Sparkle]

The developers of FM need to update their simplistic views on strikers. The last game where strikers attempted lobs was FM14, and i've never seen dribbling a GK. The only time i saw this was in the video Svenc just posted, but dribbling a GK especially when you have space is a good way to score a goal, but strikers never attempt it, its just stupid shots straight at GK.

Goals like the one griezmann scored against iceland and messi's lob goals are not possible in FM, the developers need to update themselves and watch messi play.

The counter attack of the game would also improve if players knew how to either dribble or lob the GK, instead its silly like this:

And before people try to blame me for the stupid finishing, i was Dortmund, not Arsenal.

[Citizen Sandman]

this thread really does expose somethings doesn't it.

[Svenc]

 

Lobbed goals and the like are definitely in. In fact you'll find them on the tube by googling. On occasion it seems weird though that stuff that was in there on older iterations has gone pretty much AWOL when looking through that older highlights... Unintentionally knock-ons of physics, collision stuff, reworked decision makings? Bicycle kicks have been in too though, even though you must find somebody flexible enough to record the mo-cap animations for them. :-P

 

1 hour ago, Silver Twilight Sparkle said:

The counter attack of the game would also improve if players knew how to either dribble or lob the GK, instead its silly like this:

 

AI Guardiola doesn't approve (he didn't on the recorded FM 2016 already). :-P I'm looking forward to the rage dumps though with every upgrade of counter attacks, in particular as the stuff shared on Steam Workshops etc. encourages to be as postitionally aggressive if not moreso as his not only when trying to get back into a game with a fairly class side, but like every minute of the season even when managing Bumcrap United (plug&ragequit). Also a handy upgrade for multiplayer. Usually I detest posting match stats to make a point, in particular on FM levels of stats, but here it'll hopefully do. Some bottlers in your vid, though! Tbf, this IS Arsenal http://www.skysports.com/football/news/15118/10189870/wasteful-arsenals-premier-league-title-hopes-hit-by-poor-finishing

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Svenc said:

On occasion it seems weird though that stuff that was in there on older iterations has gone pretty much AWOL when looking through that older highlights...

 

This. I'm frankly astonished, but there's no two ways about it: the match engine has taken a step back since FM 2014. As far as I've been able to tell, there's really nothing new in it, but a lot of stuff has just disappeared.

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

 

This. I'm frankly astonished, but there's no two ways about it: the match engine has taken a step back since FM 2014. As far as I've been able to tell, there's really nothing new in it, but a lot of stuff has just disappeared.

You're very quick on the trigger, but leaving a lot out.

Arced runs are new. Arced jumps are new .Lateral movement and support play is a lot better since then. Decision making got an overhaul. etc etc. So the entire match engine over 90 mins is better and more realistic.

Just because you can't see a simple dink, doesn't make it that the entire match engine has gone backwards. It's a finish type that's missing (animation probably for the most part) but the stats (shots, shots to goals etc) over 90 mins are still excellent compared to the world leagues.

It seems easy to get caught up in a missing animation, but it needs proper perspective.

[Svenc]

19 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You're very quick on the trigger, but leaving a lot out.

Arced runs are new. Arced jumps are new .Lateral movement and support play is a lot better since then. Decision making got an overhaul. etc etc. So the entire match engine over 90 mins is better and more realistic.

Definitely some big reworks, on 2013/2014 thereabouts I think the knock-ons of (lacking) supporting movement made for an increase in shooting decisions all by itself for instance (the crazy amounts of "statistically" attempts you had back then on some extreme approaches). As for the shots / shots to goals ratio being consistent... there is a caveat which is: no hugely worries much there, unless you consistently have this, of course.

I think the "tries tricks" PPM was taken out in parts also because it was perceived to be bugged, not sure though. Looking at Ronaldo doing his thing above, may well be. "Work in progress", as they say. Probably a repeat, but the more specialized football personnel Paul and the guys can bring into this to have a lookie at, the better.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

It seems easy to get caught up in a missing animation, but it needs proper perspective.

 

I have no idea about any missing animation. I'm still fine with the 2D engine. I've tried the 3D once both in FM 2014 and in FM 2017 and found that it holds no interest for me. (This is not a criticism: I am actually perfectly fine with the 2D.)

 

What I see happening (or not) in the engine comes purely from the 2D. As for arced runs, one new thing in FM 2017 seems to be the "unstoppable diagonal run from midfield", which annoys me a bit but is in no way a showstopper. It didn't exist in FM 2014.

 

The "tries tricks" was fun, but losing it was not a big deal. What I do find a bit alarming, though, is that we have PPMs for overhead kicks, lobs, rounding the keeper, but these things almost never happen. (As I said, I think I have seen one lob but the other two, never.)

[Citizen Sandman]

@Miles Jacobson

 

Miles, why doesn't the game/3d engine show people rounding the keeper & keepers punching. Basics?

[Guest]

Given that all goalkeepers have a "Tendency to Punch" stat, it is indeed very odd that apparently no keeper ever punches the ball.

[samuelawachie]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Given that all goalkeepers have a "Tendency to Punch" stat, it is indeed very odd that apparently no keeper ever punches the ball.

Goalkeepers definitely punch the ball in FM 14. I don't know about FM 17 though, as i ain't got that yet.

[zigaliro]

Also the curve. There is not enough if any  curve when players pass/shot. Hope this will be improved in the future FM`s.

[fmFutbolManager]

There are lobs, I've seen them. I cannot remember the game but I've seen one.

[Preveza]

It comes down to one thing. The ME is no where near as advanced as we would like. I am confident all this, plus more will be added over the next few years. Let SI do their thing. Im sure they have a lot on their plate in terms of where they see the ME going. Patience lads. Im disappointed overall with the current ME, but I have faith in the developers. 

[upthetoon]

good thing I've put off buying this game.. will be skipping this version entirely. it shows just how little ME has actually progress in the basics.

[cris182]

I am fairly sure i have seen GK's punch the ball in 17, Several times in fact. The only way i think i could be mistaken is if in fact the player directly next to the keeper actually headed it away and i assumed it was a punch clear

Pretty sure i have seen commentary lines suggesting it was a punch though 

[westy8chimp]

On ‎14‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 08:33, Barside said:

Keepsr can be booked & sent off in the full match engine but only for handling the ball outside the area.

just last night opposition played a long ball, their striker was one on one, my keeper came out to head the ball... missed the header.. turned around and grabbed the ball outside the box (a good 5 yards out)...  and no defender within 20 yards... not even a yellow. It cannot be possible to have the keeper sent off. i've not seen it for many many years. My understanding is it has intentionally been made so they do not get sent off.  

[HUNT3R]

2 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

just last night opposition played a long ball, their striker was one on one, my keeper came out to head the ball... missed the header.. turned around and grabbed the ball outside the box (a good 5 yards out)...  and no defender within 20 yards... not even a yellow. It cannot be possible to have the keeper sent off. i've not seen it for many many years. My understanding is it has intentionally been made so they do not get sent off.  

Your understanding is wrong. If the keeper handled outside the box and wasn't carded, that instance is a bug. I've had keepers carded, so it definitely is in the game. Can't say why yours wasn't.

[westy8chimp]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

Your understanding is wrong. If the keeper handled outside the box and wasn't carded, that instance is a bug. I've had keepers carded, so it definitely is in the game. Can't say why yours wasn't.

I've seen yellows for it never a red (just odd in this case he got neither) I had my first mega sesh yesterday  [pregnant wife was at yogabellies so I could watch super sunday]  so wont be easy to remember the game to find the save.

I raised it in match engine wish list, and general forum in last few months, basically all the things being mentioned here. i'll try to find it ... pretty sure I was told it couldn't happen.

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

I've seen yellows for it never a red (just odd in this case he got neither) I had my first mega sesh yesterday  [pregnant wife was at yogabellies so I could watch super sunday]  so wont be easy to remember the game to find the save.

I raised it in match engine wish list, and general forum in last few months, basically all the things being mentioned here. i'll try to find it ... pretty sure I was told it couldn't happen.

Collisions (and with that, last man fouls etc) will be difficult to make happen, yes. But keepers getting carded for handball does and should happen. I've also only seen yellow cards for handball though. If he did pick it up outside the box, it's a bug if he wasn't carded. Whether it's an animation issue or something else, still a bug.

[westy8chimp]

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Collisions (and with that, last man fouls etc) will be difficult to make happen, yes. But keepers getting carded for handball does and should happen. I've also only seen yellow cards for handball though. If he did pick it up outside the box, it's a bug if he wasn't carded. Whether it's an animation issue or something else, still a bug.

the animation was actually pretty good... just missed the header.. so striker was moving past him and he intentionally turned round and dived on the ball ... and it was some distance outside the box so it wasn't an animation linked to him saving the ball (IMO). I looked through my previous posts and cant find the convo I was referring to. so yes ill try to find it and post it tonight.

[Sudodoodo]

Keepers certainly do punch the ball in the game, but it's no where near as common as it should be.

[Guest]

@Preveza: Patience is all well and good, but so is owning up. The match engine isn't delivering, and that, to me, is just a fact, whether the developer owns up to it or not. I won't be coming back, it has to be said.

[Tiger666]

Love it when someone gives their opinion then states it's a fact.

[westy8chimp]

2 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

@Preveza: Patience is all well and good, but so is owning up. The match engine isn't delivering, and that, to me, is just a fact, whether the developer owns up to it or not. I won't be coming back, it has to be said.

you've been saying you wont come back since November. FM16 was a hell of a lot worse than this yet you bought FM17... FM17 is good.. just wish I had more time to play as I think this is the best iteration to date. Shame as I can now only fit in 1 hour sessions here and there and it needs much more time than that.. to the point where I may be forced to try Touch.

[Guest]

@westy8chimp: I have no experience of FM16 or, indeed, FM15. How was it worse? I'm genuinely interested. The last one I had was FM14, which I think was pretty much the same game as this new one is.

 

Obviously, as far as football manager simulations go, it has no competitors.

[westy8chimp]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

@westy8chimp: I have no experience of FM16 or, indeed, FM15. How was it worse? I'm genuinely interested. The last one I had was FM14, which I think was pretty much the same game as this new one is.

 

Obviously, as far as football manager simulations go, it has no competitors.

FM16 was a nightmare for me... didn't matter what team I was if I played 532 with wing backs .. even if they were rubbish I would win everything. Players like Haidara getting 50 assists per season.

Anyway here is PKM for my keeper not getting sent off it happens around 53rd min. @HUNT3R

animation not as good as I remember it lol.

 

Blackpool v Crewe keeper handball.pkm

[Guest]

@westy8chimp: Funny what you said about wing backs. It seems to me that full backs are quite overpowered in this game. I mean, my full backs Moreno and Clyne are not particularly good crossers, according to their stats. But it doesn't matter. They keep whipping in these inch-perfect crosses and providing a heck of a lot of assists.

[Jakarooney]

On 1/14/2017 at 08:00, xzar_monty said:

 

2) Nobody tries overhead kicks (even though there is a PPM for it).

 

To be fair in the last two FMs at least i've had maybe doubles figures of overhead kick goals. Not amazing players either....maybe going from Championship and above. On FM17 though i'm only in the VN League and so obviously haven't seen any yet.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

FM16 was a nightmare for me... didn't matter what team I was if I played 532 with wing backs .. even if they were rubbish I would win everything. Players like Haidara getting 50 assists per season.

Anyway here is PKM for my keeper not getting sent off it happens around 53rd min. @herne79

animation not as good as I remember it lol.

 

Blackpool v Crewe keeper handball.pkm

I haven't been involved in this thread, any particular reason you want me to look at that pkm?

[Cougar2010]

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

@westy8chimp: I have no experience of FM16 or, indeed, FM15. How was it worse? I'm genuinely interested. The last one I had was FM14, which I think was pretty much the same game as this new one is.

 

Obviously, as far as football manager simulations go, it has no competitors.

I can't believe anyone can say FM14 is pretty much the same as FM17 with a straight face.

 

[westy8chimp]

39 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I haven't been involved in this thread, any particular reason you want me to look at that pkm?

apologies I meant hunter. edited.

[herne79]

2 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

apologies I meant hunter. edited.

Roger .

[RobertPage]

 

18 hours ago, Preveza said:

It comes down to one thing. The ME is no where near as advanced as we would like. I am confident all this, plus more will be added over the next few years. Let SI do their thing. Im sure they have a lot on their plate in terms of where they see the ME going. Patience lads. Im disappointed overall with the current ME, but I have faith in the developers. 

I second this. IMO the game is ugly in terms of watching matches. I try to get my friends to play the game but with no luck. Reason? Graphics. Understandable that it may not be possible to have it all but despite the additional animations the matches still look very rigid and lack fluidity in everything. Often good goals looks bad due to body shape and movement and watching defensive and goalkeeping errors make you want to rip your hair out when it's against you or make you laugh when for you.

I'd love something to be made for those with Hi End PC's to play the matches on with good quality graphics and animations.

[warlock]

I wonder if there's anyone who watches a season the way most of us do in real life - ie, MoTD-style highlights of every PL game? I know I don't.

Because I think a lot of these complaints arise from watching just the highlights (key or extended) of our own games. Many of these things (rounding the keeper, lobbing the keeper, overhead kicks) are rare in real life so they should be rare in game. If we only watch our own highlights, we're not going to see many of them. That said, I've seen - from common to more rarely - strikers scoring from overhead kicks; strikers rounding the keeper (often putting the shot wide, but scoring too), and lobbing the keeper. In my current save, I've had one breathtaking goal, away to Liverpool, where De Gea played it out to Jones, who carried it forward to the halfway line, and then played a through ball to Ibra, who picked it up 30 yards out, took a touch and - as Mignolet advanced to the edge of the area - hit the lob which found the top far corner. A definite lob and the ME showed it beautifully!

Also, in the current match engine, I've often seen goals that look very definitely like dummy moves - a cross comes in, striker moves towards the ball but doesn't play it, while a teammate steals in behind and lashes it home. In previous MEs I don't remember seeing that, or if I did I'd have written it off as bad play or an animation limitation, but in FM17 it definitely looks like a deliberate play.

Point being, to see really great football you have to watch a lot - a lot - of football, and that applies to FM as well as real life.

[Preveza]

For me, its mostly about the animations. Yes graphics play a role aswell, but the animations are so clunky and off looking, I only watch in 2D. Havent played in a couple months. And thanks to the Moderator Madsheep(Or whatever her/his name is) for re opening an already locked thread to remind me I cant sell the game. Cheers buddy. Its called sarcasm. 

 

[HUNT3R]

9 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

FM16 was a nightmare for me... didn't matter what team I was if I played 532 with wing backs .. even if they were rubbish I would win everything. Players like Haidara getting 50 assists per season.

Anyway here is PKM for my keeper not getting sent off it happens around 53rd min. @HUNT3R

animation not as good as I remember it lol.

 

Blackpool v Crewe keeper handball.pkm

Thanks, but it still needs reporting as a bug.

[Guest]

Oh, for me, the graphics are completely secondary. I mean, I'm happy with the 2D. The 3D view is so awful that I have no interest in it at all. And I don't mind that: if I want to watch football, I'll watch football, not some game.

 

The management side is the interesting bit.