Be FAIR - Time for Sports Interactive to buck the trend stop ripping customers off.

[backpackant]

Re the bugs thing, and customers having to "test" the game. Those commenting so far have no idea what they are talking about.

WAY more bugs are found in one week of beta testing than a year of customer use. Things like the corner bug are often spotted but left in due to the effect changing that would have on the rest of the game.

[tmonkey]

I hope you understand that it is impossible for SI to find all the bugs in the game. They only have a finite number of testers who check for bugs and such. Everyone at SI doesn't work on the game 24/7. They have deadlines to meet before the game goes gold and they got lives too. It's impossible to make a completely bug-free game without any patches because someone's bound to find something wrong.

And at least their patches are on time. I hope you realize SI are a lot better than other gaming companies.

I've done Comp Sci at Uni. That doesn't mean ****, but it means I know that no piece of software is ever going to be bug free - apart from that one which runs a French train or something.

But there's a difference between a bug in the game, and completely undeveloped areas of a game that need major patches to "fix". And again, as per the original post, my complaint wasn't about the fact that FM is released completely under-developed and rushed every year in time for Christmas sales. It was about the notion that what we're getting is just an upgraded version of the previous game, and that chargeable DLC would suffice and be much fairer given that we've already paid nearly £30 for the same core game.

It's the exact same complaints aimed at FIFA, Pro Evo, etc etc. But just because other companies do this, doesn't mean SI have to follow suit (or more accurately, continue their current form of exploitation). One can only hope that one day a competitor comes along who takes over the market in areas where EA and SI are dominating by offering both a superior product at a considerably fairer price.

[endtime]

In the end, all it boils down to is: don't buy it if you think you're getting ripped off.

[Pangaea]

I can understand your criticism to a degree. But SI isn't a huge company. They basically have one foot to stand on: Football Manager. They need the income from that each year to continue producing that (and other) games.

The alternative, I think, isn't some solution where we pay only a tenner each year or so. The alternative is between paying 30 each year for FM, or not getting any more FMs.

Having been a game tester I know it's no small task to get games bug-free. You just can't throw in a big number of new features each year and in addition expect everything to run bug-free from the off on all kinds of specifications. Put in one small new feature, and 5 others may go haywire. Producing a game like Football Manager is about evolution - not revolution.

[edgar555]

I apologise profusely for having a life and a career.

Where have you shown me up? Please do tell.

You asked how other companies survived without making a game a year, I pointed out how. No I don't have specifics but nor do you so we should leave that be.

I'd like to ask you though, you say the game is not good enough yet apart from the regen issue you've not given any specifics. Care to elaborate.

Also since when was this thread, you v me? Like all ranters you've gone off base when challenged and started spouting abuse.

That's the reason I will step away from this now, because you will only continue down that road and if I want to be abused this isn't the place I'd choose to come.

Anyway, in 6 months time another, better FM will be released and you'll be sitting there moaning about dlc still.

[Pangaea]

Re the bugs thing, and customers having to "test" the game. Those commenting so far have no idea what they are talking about.

WAY more bugs are found in one week of beta testing than a year of customer use. Things like the corner bug are often spotted but left in due to the effect changing that would have on the rest of the game.

I can only concur with this. It's a shame really that the average user doesn't know the immense work that goes into producing a game like Football Manager. Those who have been lucky enough to be beta testers appreciate the difficulty, as we have seen first hand the huge progression a game goes through during some months, and the big number of bugs which are reported and fixed.

Some things simply can't be fixed due to game designs that need improving in future versions. Or the knock-on effects can be too serious - especially when running close to deadline.

I think it's safe to say FM2010 is a very good game though. It's not perfect, but I can't exactly say I run across a lot of bugs while playing the game. And the few I notice have a negligible impact.

[JonnyCurrie]

imo i think SI have screwed themselves over with FM10

now we can edit the datbase in any way we want, and easily upload/download them, by the time the 2010/11 season starts (which will be waaaay before FM11 comes out) someone will have created an updated database and made it available for free.

anyone who has FM 10 doesnt need to buy Fm11 or 12 etc, unless they make MASSIVE changes to the football manager series.

I've done Comp Sci at Uni. That doesn't mean ****, but it means I know that no piece of software is ever going to be bug free - apart from that one which runs a French train or something.

But there's a difference between a bug in the game, and completely undeveloped areas of a game that need major patches to "fix". And again, as per the original post, my complaint wasn't about the fact that FM is released completely under-developed and rushed every year in time for Christmas sales. It was about the notion that what we're getting is just an upgraded version of the previous game, and that chargeable DLC would suffice and be much fairer given that we've already paid nearly £30 for the same core game.

It's the exact same complaints aimed at FIFA, Pro Evo, etc etc. But just because other companies do this, doesn't mean SI have to follow suit (or more accurately, continue their current form of exploitation). One can only hope that one day a competitor comes along who takes over the market in areas where EA and SI are dominating by offering both a superior product at a considerably fairer price.

Actually a Comp Sci degree is a pretty decent thing to have. Which confuses me more considering the lack of sense in your argument. That's not me calling you a liar or anything.

As for your description of the flaws that exist with FM, they are a very large exaggeration. Every FM that has come out, has improved in some way. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it wasn't to everyone's taste (hence why some people still prefer FM07) but for the majority, SI do improve their product every single year without fail.

The rest of your argument just doesn't stand up to reality and quite frankly, this is where I do doubt you as a Comp Sci graduate because I would think if you were, you would have some common sense and realise that SI cannot just a) release a small update every year or b) lower their REASONABLE price drastically.

If you honestly believe that FM10 is just a tweak of FM09 then you need your head looking at. There are considerable difference - blatant obvious ones!

As for your last line about your hope that a competitor comes in to give you what you want. Well that isn't going to happen. Because your competitor, whoever that would be, will need to make profit like the rest of the game development studios.

[Cougar2010]

I've done Comp Sci at Uni. That doesn't mean ****, but it means I know that no piece of software is ever going to be bug free - apart from that one which runs a French train or something.

But there's a difference between a bug in the game, and completely undeveloped areas of a game that need major patches to "fix". And again, as per the original post, my complaint wasn't about the fact that FM is released completely under-developed and rushed every year in time for Christmas sales. It was about the notion that what we're getting is just an upgraded version of the previous game, and that chargeable DLC would suffice and be much fairer given that we've already paid nearly £30 for the same core game.

It's the exact same complaints aimed at FIFA, Pro Evo, etc etc. But just because other companies do this, doesn't mean SI have to follow suit (or more accurately, continue their current form of exploitation). One can only hope that one day a competitor comes along who takes over the market in areas where EA and SI are dominating by offering both a superior product at a considerably fairer price.

I'll ignore the rubbish from the recent posts and get back to your original comment which you've restated above.

Personally I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain extent with some of it.

Much of a new release of FM is an upgrade (player attributes, league tables, ME changes, additional graphics etc) along with some new features. The price varies and I've been able to purchase a new release for under £20 most years which makes it towards the cheap end of the market for new releases.

The problem I have with your post is when you say they exploit the market and that they overcharge for the product.

By now every experienced FM gamer should know that the game is released around October followed by three patches (on release, Decemberish & Marchish). This has been the policy for years and as such users can make an informed choice as to if they feel a new release is worth the money before they purchase it, even trying a demo if the feel the urge.

With no-one forced to buy a new release I don't see how you can say they are exploiting the market. Whilst I personally choose to buy the new version every year I also have friends that buy versions every 2-3 years.

In terms of value for money again personally for the amount of gametime I get from FM compared to the price I paid it I would rate it very highly. At what level would you consider you didn't get value for money? under 30 hours? under 15 hours? Even people who haven't liked this version I would have thought would have played a few hours before coming to that conclusion.

I'm confident we've all bought other games in the past that we've played much less and probably paid more for.

[earmack]

Every FM that has come out, has improved in some way

---

I know its all relative but for me 06 was worse than 05 and 08 was worse than 07, as in waaaaaaay worse.

If you honestly believe that FM10 is just a tweak of FM09 then you need your head looking at. There are considerable difference - blatant obvious ones!

----

Id say FM10 is very similar to FM05. The match engine has changed only a tiny ammount. To me its 90% the same. (play both games).

[pooman2279]

£7!? 7!? Do you have any idea how much it costs to create FM every year? £7 simply would not cover the budget of the game. Like someone else has said, £25 is actually pretty fair considering most new games are at least £35. If you had sense you would do what many people do: buy the game in February or March when the game is much cheaper and when the game has been updated. Ridiculous post, and is reflective of society these days.

[paulscholesisalegend]

football manager is worth the price we pay i know it has bugs in but what game is perfect nowadays ? at least they bring the patches out to try and rectify them. Also they answer your questions when you ask them its like lifetime technical support thrown in and who offers that ?? i for one will be buying fm 2011 when its released. but for now ill enjoy fm 2010.

[champ 01/02]

I just want to say that S.I are an example to other game companies who charge extra for patches. They produce a stunning game every year for 25 quid and e.a produce many crap games for 40 quid. I have played over 500 hours on fm 10 for 25 quid, cant argue value for money. People who complain you try and do what s.i do and see where you get without dedication and charging more than 7 quid, and then we can all go on your official forum and moan about your product and how it's full of bugs and how it's so rubbish and your ripping us off, see how you like it, i just want to say thanks to everyone involved in the making of football manager and long may it continue:D

[drmanley]

£7!? 7!? Do you have any idea how much it costs to create FM every year? £7 simply would not cover the budget of the game. Like someone else has said, £25 is actually pretty fair considering most new games are at least £35. If you had sense you would do what many people do: buy the game in February or March when the game is much cheaper and when the game has been updated. Ridiculous post, and is reflective of society these days.

Absolutely spot on. How anyone can expect a company to continue to support numerous legacy products and also develop new ones on c.25% of their current budget is utterly baffling!

[Fade2Black]

Hey Monkey you make some good points and i partly understand/agree with your frustration.

I've been a gamer for years, i can take you as far back as '' Jet Set Willy '' OOOOH YEA, there's one for the kids on this forum.

Anyways one of the main reasons i didn't and still haven't jumped on the ''Xbox/Ps3'' bandwaggon is because i just see it as nothing more than a blatant money snatching routine and for the money i'm handing over i always feel as if im getting screwed by the end of it all. i still play my mates consoles whenever i'm over and i have to say i am indifferent with the games but a big part of me still refuses to run to a shop with my tongue hanging out and my trousers around my ankles because of the latest game that looks exactly like the last one.

HOWEVER!

I share your frustration with some of Fm's minor points, like the press cons and all the little gimmicks that are 1 pointless and 2 extreamly annoying and repedative.

BUT!

I have to say, Football manager is a game i have very little truck with. I enjoy it alot and it is one of the best games out their in general nevermind in the football department.

If SI charged us for the patches they provide then i'd be on your side alot more but the patches are really in my reading of things, a better the devil you know situation.

I doubt the boys n girls at SI are sitting around playing solitaire and just recycling stuff. FM is a versatile game afterall. it's no Super Mario. You can't hire 50 folk to run the game and test all it's flaws and then ship it out. This game has so many ways of playing it that it would take a bloody year to fish out all it's snags.

it's forums like this that make the FM fans and developers a close unit that ultimately brings in a better product.

I personally didn't buy fm2010 until the 3rd patch was released because of the history of the game being bug ridden in the past on launch. I'm a Rangers fan so when that bug in 08 i think it was appeared where you couldn't go further than the 1st season in the spl due to a faulty fixture list i got really mad! but these things happen.

Although truth be told, i was more gutted at Mika Aartilo being down graded heheheh! but anyways!

this is just my opinion.

Do i think your critisism of SI is fair ? No but i do believe alot of what you say can be aimed at alot of other game companies who just blatantly rip the hell out of their customers.

SI do a good job in my book and at the same time you make some valid points so good on you for speaking your mind.

[Nobby_McDonald]

Tell me something tmonkey... do you buy every release of FM, or do you miss some out?

[tmonkey]

I apologise profusely for having a life and a career.

Where have you shown me up? Please do tell.

You asked how other companies survived without making a game a year, I pointed out how. No I don't have specifics but nor do you so we should leave that be.

I'd like to ask you though, you say the game is not good enough yet apart from the regen issue you've not given any specifics. Care to elaborate.

Also since when was this thread, you v me? Like all ranters you've gone off base when challenged and started spouting abuse.

That's the reason I will step away from this now, because you will only continue down that road and if I want to be abused this isn't the place I'd choose to come.

Anyway, in 6 months time another, better FM will be released and you'll be sitting there moaning about dlc still.

You first said SI would go bust if they had to go down the DLC route, and then mockingly asked if I was their accountant when I responded that they wouldn't. I've responded by using your own line of questioning against you - i.e. how do YOU know they'd go bust, what is that based on? etc. You've failed to answer me, except for a rather miserable "some games devs only release games every 2-3 years based on business models". As though that means anything. You've not responded to any of the questions in the last post regarding what YOU have stated, so quite clearly you're forming arguements out of thin air without any industry knowledge. The difference is, I'm not the one pretending to know what the industry is like and making exaggerated claims like "SI WILL GO BUST IF THEY RELEASE DLC".

As for the game not being "good enough", certainly the long term aspect of the game needs fixing, and has done for a long while. Threads on this board go back a decade from what I remember, back to the earlier iterations of Champ Man - it was alright back then because of the system of regens whereby a retiring player would respawn in the game (so Maldini for example would retire, and a new player with the same CA/PA/mental stats/etc would regenerate in the game). Now, although the regens are better than what they were in FM 09, you'll not get anywhere close to the start game players you get when you look at both hidden and non hidden attributes. The match engine needs fixing with excessive goals being scored whenever teams fall behind, player relationship needs to be improved, the transfer system needs to have more depth to it (for example the ability for clubs to hold talks over players, instead of actual bids for individuals - real life example would be Juve's chairman holding talks with Real's President over who was available or not etc), more agent interaction, the ability to set a player's defeault role for each position, so on and so forth. There's a ton that could be done with FM 2010 10.3, but this is all irrelevant anyway. My point is a very simple one - unless FM 2011 genuinely brings in a large number of major changes and overhauls instead of "minor" tweaks to things like tactics, media handling, etc, then it should just be DLC.

[Praczy]

FFS...

1. Nobody is forcing you to buy a new game every year.

2. Nobody is forcing you to buy game on release, you can wait for 2nd/3rd patch.

Is that so hard to understand? If you don't want to be "ripped off" then don't.

[AnfieldRoad10]

Your profile says you were born in 2003. Judging by your posts that makes perfect sense.

If i don't like something, a game, a pair of jeans, food etc..i don't buy it. Simple really. What i find quite idiotic is buying a game (which you seem to already know that you dislike) and then you complain about it...take it back to the shop if its that bad.

[tmonkey]

FFS...

1. Nobody is forcing you to buy a new game every year.

2. Nobody is forcing you to buy game on release, you can wait for 2nd/3rd patch.

Is that so hard to understand? If you don't want to be "ripped off" then don't.

What might be harder is for you to actually read the arguements put forward, because both points have already been covered.

I like FM, I like FM 2010 but feel it needs to be improved, I want to play FM 2011, but I resent paying £25 for what will be FM 2010 10.4 with lots of gimmicks marketed as being major overhauls. Whether I buy it or not is irrelevant - fact is I want to complain that SI have chosen this route and in the same year as 10.3 was released will be again charging me full whack for an improved version of the game game.

Now is that hard to understand?

[tmonkey]

Your profile says you were born in 2003. Judging by your posts that makes perfect sense.

If i don't like something, a game, a pair of jeans, food etc..i don't buy it. Simple really. What i find quite idiotic is buying a game (which you seem to already know that you dislike) and then you complain about it...take it back to the shop if its that bad.

I never said I hated FM 2010. I'm merely saying that a FAIR price structure relating to the changes we actually see would be to have DLC's for those of us who paid for FM 2010.

I find it pretty idiotic that people are struggling to grasp this concept. If I didn't like FM, would I actually be on this forum? Jesus.

[edgar555]

No I don't have specifics but nor do you so we should leave that be.

That bit up there is where I answered all your questions in one go.

My knowledge of the games industry is gleaned from the internet and the odd copy of EDGE or Gamestm. No more than that, so as I stated I can't answer you honestly and factually so we (or at least, I) should leave it alone. I have.

The shame of this is, that the bolded bits below are actually very valid and good suggestions in giving the game more depth and appeal. If you'd of started with those and steered clear of this DLC nonsense then you'd have had a lot of people onside with this thread.

I call the DLC thing nonsense, because lets face it, it ain't going to happen. However if people continue to contribute their ideas and suggestions then what we will get is closer and closer to what we all desire the (as close to) perfect (as humanly possible) management sim.

I do need to point out that I don't see the tactic creator as a minor tweak, its a massive leap, maybe not what goes on behind the scenes, but certainly in what we see. This has been embraced by many, but lampooned by a healthy minority. To my mind, a good move, lets hope there are more to come.

You first said SI would go bust if they had to go down the DLC route, and then mockingly asked if I was their accountant when I responded that they wouldn't. I've responded by using your own line of questioning against you - i.e. how do YOU know they'd go bust, what is that based on? etc. You've failed to answer me, except for a rather miserable "some games devs only release games every 2-3 years based on business models". As though that means anything. You've not responded to any of the questions in the last post regarding what YOU have stated, so quite clearly you're forming arguements out of thin air without any industry knowledge. The difference is, I'm not the one pretending to know what the industry is like and making exaggerated claims like "SI WILL GO BUST IF THEY RELEASE DLC".

As for the game not being "good enough", certainly the long term aspect of the game needs fixing, and has done for a long while. Threads on this board go back a decade from what I remember, back to the earlier iterations of Champ Man - it was alright back then because of the system of regens whereby a retiring player would respawn in the game (so Maldini for example would retire, and a new player with the same CA/PA/mental stats/etc would regenerate in the game). Now, although the regens are better than what they were in FM 09, you'll not get anywhere close to the start game players you get when you look at both hidden and non hidden attributes. The match engine needs fixing with excessive goals being scored whenever teams fall behind, player relationship needs to be improved, the transfer system needs to have more depth to it (for example the ability for clubs to hold talks over players, instead of actual bids for individuals - real life example would be Juve's chairman holding talks with Real's President over who was available or not etc), more agent interaction, the ability to set a player's defeault role for each position, so on and so forth. There's a ton that could be done with FM 2010 10.3, but this is all irrelevant anyway. My point is a very simple one - unless FM 2011 genuinely brings in a large number of major changes and overhauls instead of "minor" tweaks to things like tactics, media handling, etc, then it should just be DLC.

[Northernpilgrim]

The way I see this is like the Darwinian theory of evolution. From one year to the next, not much has changed perhaps. But compare 2010 with 2007 for example, and it's a different animal. You can't get to the giant leaps without first taking baby steps. I've bought every game since the very first Championship Manager, through all the FM incarnations, and the game just feels so much more slick now. The next thing for me is actually being able to hold discussions with players, rather than just send a one line message chosen from a list of options, and to actually go into the dressing room and hear your half time and full time team talk, and see the effect visually on your players, so you know if you've got it right.

[AnfieldRoad10]

I never said I hated FM 2010. I'm merely saying that a FAIR price structure relating to the changes we actually see would be to have DLC's for those of us who paid for FM 2010.

I find it pretty idiotic that people are struggling to grasp this concept. If I didn't like FM, would I actually be on this forum? Jesus.

But the price is fair.

Look at the fifa series, a very successful series of games, every year that seems to be 'just' an updated version on the previous game, yet it sells every year for £40 a time.

Irrespective of that, every year SI do make big changes to the game, they don't 'just' fix bugs.

Do you honestly expect them to be able to spot every single bug prior to release? I can't comment on the hours or number of testers involved, but whilst it is vast, it is nothing compared to the amount of people who play the game so of course the consumers are bound to notice more bugs than the testers, purely by virtue that there is more of us.

SI do update the game constantly, they release patches, and listen to the community, you mention the game 'team fortress 2' now i've never actually heard of the game before, but how complex is the game? As well as that, you say they still work on it now....is there a Team Fortress 3? Do they have plans for another game in the pipeline? If not, then thats why they still work on the game they have on the market now.

[Cougar2010]

What might be harder is for you to actually read the arguements put forward, because both points have already been covered.

I like FM, I like FM 2010 but feel it needs to be improved, I want to play FM 2011, but I resent paying £25 for what will be FM 2010 10.4 with lots of gimmicks marketed as being major overhauls. Whether I buy it or not is irrelevant - fact is I want to complain that SI have chosen this route and in the same year as 10.3 was released will be again charging me full whack for an improved version of the game game.

Now is that hard to understand?

I think its worth pointing out that in this field there is little in the way of "new" features that could be added especially after all these years.

Its more a case of overhauling/expanding/streamlining the current features which to be fair is what most of the community have been asking for over the last few years and what SI have been doing.

[tmonkey]

Here's the simple idea. Or more like a dream since it's pretty unrealistic:

SI Release "FM 3". It is for the 2010/11 season. It costs £30, and is shipped with no major bugs and well developed long-term gameplay (finally regens are "fixed"), having been tested fully and for a lengthy period of time during it's open BETA. At the end of that season, they release DLC for 2011/12, costing around £9 - the database is updated, a few improvements and enhancements to the teamtalks, media handling, match engine, tactics, efficiencies, compatability, so on and so forth. FM 3: Season 11/12 is available for those who don't have FM 3. They do the same for DLC 2012/13 - but during this time, they start development on "FM 4". The match engine will be overhauled, new graphics, new interface, new media style talks, new hardware to work with (maybe 50+ core CPU's), maybe have radical ideas and changes like having yourself in the game and visible (so you're actually at press-conferences facing the press - like you see in the news), maybe you can even visibly see whats going on in training. Whatever. FM 4 is the full retail game, costing the full amount of £30, and SI takes it's time to develop it, and releases it again without the major hiccups they've experienced in 08-10.

Now, would that be so bad for SI and for us? I certainly think it's better than SI releasing a flawed, rushed version every single year because of the pressures of meeting deadlines and charging full amounts for it (or expecting customers to wait till the real-life footballing season is in it's final quarter before playing a fully patched version of the game initially released 6 months ago).

Anyway this is my last post in this thread, I think I've made myself clear and made all the points I wanted to make, so theres nothing more to add. Except for expecting more fanboys to post more nonsense in here defending SI to the hilt without bothering to read through it.

[pnefc22]

Happy 7th birthday in 6 days!!! Woop woop, I got you the new actionman!

[Cougar2010]

Here's the simple idea. Or more like a dream since it's pretty unrealistic:

SI Release "FM 3". It is for the 2010/11 season. It costs £30, and is shipped with no major bugs and well developed long-term gameplay (finally regens are "fixed"), having been tested fully and for a lengthy period of time during it's open BETA. At the end of that season, they release DLC for 2011/12, costing around £9 - the database is updated, a few improvements and enhancements to the teamtalks, media handling, match engine, tactics, efficiencies, compatability, so on and so forth. FM 3: Season 11/12 is available for those who don't have FM 3. They do the same for DLC 2012/13 - but during this time, they start development on "FM 4". The match engine will be overhauled, new graphics, new interface, new media style talks, new hardware to work with (maybe 50+ core CPU's), maybe have radical ideas and changes like having yourself in the game and visible (so you're actually at press-conferences facing the press - like you see in the news), maybe you can even visibly see whats going on in training. Whatever. FM 4 is the full retail game, costing the full amount of £30, and SI takes it's time to develop it, and releases it again without the major hiccups they've experienced in 08-10.

Now, would that be so bad for SI and for us? I certainly think it's better than SI releasing a flawed, rushed version every single year because of the pressures of meeting deadlines and charging full amounts for it (or expecting customers to wait till the real-life footballing season is in it's final quarter before playing a fully patched version of the game released 6 months ago).

Anyway this is my last post in this thread, I think I've made myself clear and made all the points I wanted to make, so theres nothing more to add. Except for expecting more fanboys to post more nonsense in here defending SI to the hilt without bothering to read through it.

First, don't call people "fanboys" just because they don't agree with your point of view, its disrespectful.

We would all like games released without bugs but as things are at the moment it will never happen.

SI did do an open Beta for one of the versions but it was abused by a minority and they haven't done one since.

Whilst you feel your plan for FM is workable SI have stated in the past it isn't and that yearly releases are needed.

Don't forget its not just SI that get your money. There are wages, production costs, distribution costs, advertising, retailer margins & tax all to pay before they see any profit.

[pnefc22]

Oh, and you know when you buy a CD, why don't they release their next CD for £2 as DLC, as it is just the same thing?

[edgar555]

Happy 7th birthday in 6 days!!! Woop woop, I got you the new actionman!

Oh, and you know when you buy a CD, why don't they release their next CD for £2 as DLC, as it is just the same thing?

Comedy gold

First, don't call people "fanboys" just because they don't agree with your point of view, its disrespectful.

We would all like games released without bugs but as things are at the moment it will never happen.

SI did do an open Beta for one of the versions but it was abused by a minority and they haven't done one since.

Whilst you feel your plan for FM is workable SI have stated in the past it isn't and that yearly releases are needed.

Don't forget its not just SI that get your money. There are wages, production costs, distribution costs, advertising, retailer margins & tax all to pay before they see any profit.

Knew I hadn't just pulled it out of thin air. Should've known it was SI themselves that I'd heard it from.

[nev147]

The way I see this is like the Darwinian theory of evolution. From one year to the next, not much has changed perhaps. But compare 2010 with 2007 for example, and it's a different animal. You can't get to the giant leaps without first taking baby steps. I've bought every game since the very first Championship Manager, through all the FM incarnations, and the game just feels so much more slick now. The next thing for me is actually being able to hold discussions with players, rather than just send a one line message chosen from a list of options, and to actually go into the dressing room and hear your half time and full time team talk, and see the effect visually on your players, so you know if you've got it right.

Great post.

[grade]

Here's the simple idea. Or more like a dream since it's pretty unrealistic:

SI Release "FM 3". It is for the 2010/11 season. It costs £30, and is shipped with no major bugs and well developed long-term gameplay (finally regens are "fixed"), having been tested fully and for a lengthy period of time during it's open BETA. At the end of that season, they release DLC for 2011/12, costing around £9 - the database is updated, a few improvements and enhancements to the teamtalks, media handling, match engine, tactics, efficiencies, compatability, so on and so forth. FM 3: Season 11/12 is available for those who don't have FM 3. They do the same for DLC 2012/13 - but during this time, they start development on "FM 4". The match engine will be overhauled, new graphics, new interface, new media style talks, new hardware to work with (maybe 50+ core CPU's), maybe have radical ideas and changes like having yourself in the game and visible (so you're actually at press-conferences facing the press - like you see in the news), maybe you can even visibly see whats going on in training. Whatever. FM 4 is the full retail game, costing the full amount of £30, and SI takes it's time to develop it, and releases it again without the major hiccups they've experienced in 08-10.

Now, would that be so bad for SI and for us? I certainly think it's better than SI releasing a flawed, rushed version every single year because of the pressures of meeting deadlines and charging full amounts for it (or expecting customers to wait till the real-life footballing season is in it's final quarter before playing a fully patched version of the game initially released 6 months ago).

Anyway this is my last post in this thread, I think I've made myself clear and made all the points I wanted to make, so theres nothing more to add. Except for expecting more fanboys to post more nonsense in here defending SI to the hilt without bothering to read through it.

That was pretty much SI business plan when they where in charge of CM. Then came along Eidos partnership and something got very wary where CM4 has become so famous for the wrong reasons.

Despite the fact I kinda like the current business of Si release every year, but what I'm against is SI idea of releasing the game with a bunch of gimmicks that don't work as it supposed to be (Press Conferences and staff meeting) and screw features that where already there that worked fine (Team Talks, the 2D (classic) representation, the automated switch between window where the kits are and the actual key moment view in the match, the making sub the clock stop and transfers).

We even had bugs return, like the super GK, goal galore and injury prone, which makes me abysmal and thinking what in hell are the people working for SI doing? I feel that these are kinda of bugs that where resolved and should not have come back. It is like they are fix the bugs blindfolded and praying for the best that doesn't affect anything else.

Yes, I do think that FM should at this point be light years away from where it stands now, maybe it is why i find the last 3 games (FM08, FM09 and FM10) are plain boring.

But the price is fair.

Look at the fifa series, a very successful series of games, every year that seems to be 'just' an updated version on the previous game, yet it sells every year for £40 a time.

The Price maybe fair on UK, but where I live they charge 50 euros (about 55 pounds). I consider it hardly fair, compared to the UK.

The way I see this is like the Darwinian theory of evolution. From one year to the next, not much has changed perhaps. But compare 2010 with 2007 for example, and it's a different animal. You can't get to the giant leaps without first taking baby steps. I've bought every game since the very first Championship Manager, through all the FM incarnations, and the game just feels so much more slick now. The next thing for me is actually being able to hold discussions with players, rather than just send a one line message chosen from a list of options, and to actually go into the dressing room and hear your half time and full time team talk, and see the effect visually on your players, so you know if you've got it right.

It may be a different animal, but FM10 is game full of gimmicks that some don't work as they should and those that are simply boring that I question if SI did even think that majority of the users of FM go for the long career.

[Cougar2010]

The Price maybe fair on UK, but where I live they charge 50 euros (about 55 pounds). I consider it hardly fair, compared to the UK.

It should be noted that SI don't set the retail price the stores do although Sega possibly have some input.

[Bojan11]

Hey Monkey you make some good points and i partly understand/agree with your frustration.

I've been a gamer for years, i can take you as far back as '' Jet Set Willy '' OOOOH YEA, there's one for the kids on this forum.

Anyways one of the main reasons i didn't and still haven't jumped on the ''Xbox/Ps3'' bandwaggon is because i just see it as nothing more than a blatant money snatching routine and for the money i'm handing over i always feel as if im getting screwed by the end of it all. i still play my mates consoles whenever i'm over and i have to say i am indifferent with the games but a big part of me still refuses to run to a shop with my tongue hanging out and my trousers around my ankles because of the latest game that looks exactly like the last one.

HOWEVER!

I share your frustration with some of Fm's minor points, like the press cons and all the little gimmicks that are 1 pointless and 2 extreamly annoying and repedative.

BUT!

I have to say, Football manager is a game i have very little truck with. I enjoy it alot and it is one of the best games out their in general nevermind in the football department.

If SI charged us for the patches they provide then i'd be on your side alot more but the patches are really in my reading of things, a better the devil you know situation.

I doubt the boys n girls at SI are sitting around playing solitaire and just recycling stuff. FM is a versatile game afterall. it's no Super Mario. You can't hire 50 folk to run the game and test all it's flaws and then ship it out. This game has so many ways of playing it that it would take a bloody year to fish out all it's snags.

it's forums like this that make the FM fans and developers a close unit that ultimately brings in a better product.

I personally didn't buy fm2010 until the 3rd patch was released because of the history of the game being bug ridden in the past on launch. I'm a Rangers fan so when that bug in 08 i think it was appeared where you couldn't go further than the 1st season in the spl due to a faulty fixture list i got really mad! but these things happen.

Although truth be told, i was more gutted at Mika Aartilo being down graded heheheh! but anyways!

this is just my opinion.

Do i think your critisism of SI is fair ? No but i do believe alot of what you say can be aimed at alot of other game companies who just blatantly rip the hell out of their customers.

SI do a good job in my book and at the same time you make some valid points so good on you for speaking your mind.

great post mate looking forward to see more made me laugh aswell.

[nev147]

great post mate looking forward to see more made me laugh aswell.

I'll second that.

[MikeTrus]

D

See above, I've learned over the years that as much as we would like bugfree software its simply not going to happen in the real world.

Best example of this is GranTurismo5. People have been waiting YEARS whilst they integrate damage and the like.

Personally, I'll happilly spend my £29 each year for the little box. I'm not a huge fan of FML, too much money, but for 20 odd quid for a year's entertainment, I'll have it.

You talk about new technologies that should be in FM10 but wont so they can make money on FM11, fact is this happens everywhere. Technology is so advanced, phones can carry unlimited megapixle cameras, but if they stick the best one in right away, what do they release next year? or the year after that?

I do agree to an extent with OP, but I think the price is very fair.

[Fade2Black]

great post mate looking forward to see more made me laugh aswell.

I'll second that.

Lol, Thanks guys i forget half the things i type on this forum! but i know where the OP is coming from he's just chosen the wrong Forum to do it in. Maybe he lost a cup final 5-4 with the last kick of the ball and 3 minutes over the alotted extra time or something who knows!

judging by the reaction on these boards you'd have thought the SI team had been round our houses shagging our birds.

SI are and always have been one of the most open and progressive developers out there and with the help of this community they strive to bring out the best management game on the block, which they have done, every year since they started. Long may they continue to do so.

LOL, DAM! EDGAR!!! I was slurping on a nice big cold glass of irn bru wich has been plastered allover my new monitor with that SI pimpin our ladies line! lol:p

Dunno if there is such a thing on this forum but a Post of the week should be opened for that one line alone!

Lets hope the OP realises that SI works very well with the people on this forum and they are one of the few, very few companies infact who keep in regular contact with their fans/customers.

[StevoRobbo]

Wow, Ive just read every post. That took a long time. I had to log in again

Op, I understand where your coming from with some respects. Personally, if somebody managed to make a mod to the game where I could start FM10 in July 2010 and get an updated database then I probably wouldnt buy FM11 because im happy with the game how it is now.

I would only really buy a new version if there was new feature introduced that I liked. Heck I'd even buy a new version if only press conferences were removed

I only play one game and that is Football Manager so £25 a year is good value to me.

I understand Sega/SI's position though. I bet a lot of people are like me and would stick with an older version if they could change the game start date to the current season and get an updated database. With the new editor, its easy to download somebody elses new database so in effect some people are buying the new game just to start a game from the current season.

This is why SI would never release such a mod because I think they would lose a lot of sales (enough for them to notice anyway).

It annoys me that every year you know the game is going to be bugged badly on release and we know it wont be fixed (as near as damn it) until the 3rd patch but what annoys me even more is when bugs that have been fixed by the 3rd patch reappear in the next years game. For me there is no excuse for that but its something I have come to expect.

I have said quite a few times in the past that Id rather SI release a 'new' game every 2 years and for the year inbetween just release a patch (one which you need to buy) to update the game start date, a new updated database and some more tweaks but this just isnt possible for a business to do, and lets face it, it is just a business. If it means paying £25 every year to keep getting the best god damn game in the world then so be it.

When you look and see the alternative is CM, theres not really much you can argue about is there.

[lutontown1991]

edgar555

[Pangaea]

Here's the simple idea. Or more like a dream since it's pretty unrealistic:

SI Release "FM 3". It is for the 2010/11 season. It costs £30, and is shipped with no major bugs and well developed long-term gameplay (finally regens are "fixed"), having been tested fully and for a lengthy period of time during it's open BETA. At the end of that season, they release DLC for 2011/12, costing around £9 - the database is updated, a few improvements and enhancements to the teamtalks, media handling, match engine, tactics, efficiencies, compatability, so on and so forth. FM 3: Season 11/12 is available for those who don't have FM 3. They do the same for DLC 2012/13 - but during this time, they start development on "FM 4". The match engine will be overhauled, new graphics, new interface, new media style talks, new hardware to work with (maybe 50+ core CPU's), maybe have radical ideas and changes like having yourself in the game and visible (so you're actually at press-conferences facing the press - like you see in the news), maybe you can even visibly see whats going on in training. Whatever. FM 4 is the full retail game, costing the full amount of £30, and SI takes it's time to develop it, and releases it again without the major hiccups they've experienced in 08-10.

Now, would that be so bad for SI and for us? I certainly think it's better than SI releasing a flawed, rushed version every single year because of the pressures of meeting deadlines and charging full amounts for it (or expecting customers to wait till the real-life footballing season is in it's final quarter before playing a fully patched version of the game initially released 6 months ago).

Anyway this is my last post in this thread, I think I've made myself clear and made all the points I wanted to make, so theres nothing more to add. Except for expecting more fanboys to post more nonsense in here defending SI to the hilt without bothering to read through it.

How will less income result in better testing and a better final product?

[Paulo1985]

To be honest I think this guy was just attention seeking and wanted a reaction and he got it.

The Football manager series and the CM series before that have and always will be among the best games released every year and I for one don't mind parting with £25 every year on release day for the hard work and support that we all receive both In game and on this forum.

Yes i do think of myself as an FM fan but if there was ever to be a better game i would buy it but as it goes many have tried to come close and have failed (Fifa Manager, New CM series). That is the reason that alot of the people on these forums and alot of people that don't come on here keep buying the game year after year.

On the Bugs making the game unplayable. My friend has the game has been playing out of the box with no patches and has not found there to be a problem. He does not visit this forum and does not use FMrte has been playing a long term game. He does not go looking for problems so he does not find them.

I suggest that if you want to play the game out of the box from Day one to get your full years worth install by steam and don't visit this forum. you will get all the updates just like you would from any other games but you will not be reading about every little problem that may be included in the game.

[numbas2]

He's right. And this is the plague of the game industry - pushed and pushed so games are no longer released fully tested.

NOT GOOD ENOUGH. I point at FIFA my primary target.

SI, well, I have always known it to work this way... with the competition in the same boat, nothing changes.

Ideally they would break for a year so they can get the game PERFECT.

Like COD, where Activision and ****** (whoever made COD:WoW) alternate to allow more game development and bug killing.

[Smurf]

All software across the planet now releases the software to the public domain, the biggest testing ground there is. There is no way software (or hardware) companies can test the product for every computer system, for every flaw or glitch. There simply wouldn't be time. The World is the testing stage.

I remember when I used to buy computer games before the Internet was even invented. There was no way to contact the software vendors, there was no way to report bugs. You had to open up the game code and make corrections to it yourself (at least I could with my basic level of coding).

Today's society is blessed that they can report bugs, get patches and updates literally while sitting on the couch. I don't have to leave my house or workplace to buy software. I just download it. I download patches. I talk to people on forums on how to solve problems. None of this was available even 10 years ago.

Nobody here has the right to complain about the game having bugs or requiring patches? For €30 you're getting access to a great game, the ability to have your voice heard and YOUR changes that you want implemented to the game.

That's why the game is so fantastic, there are literally MILLIONS of people reporting bugs, requesting improvements, wanting tweaks here and there. There's only so much they can do. So much they can get right. So many systems they can test. So many scenarios they can get through.

Football manager is ONLY around €30 and it's every year. Yeh I can keep playing FM 2010 for as long as I like. Or I could get my copy of FM 2009/08/07 etc. and install that and play them any time I like.

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy FM 2011, it's not a requirement. If you're worried about bugginess and game play then wait until the patches roll out in January.

Or I'm sure if you keep playing FM 2010, then someone can release a database update to include all the new players for 2011 and you can continue playing FM10.

It's only €30 or so. Yeh it might be a bit buggy, but you should get a solid 10 month of game play out of that. What other game do you play for 10 months without getting bored? Perhaps WOW or some other like Oblivion or Final Fantasy. But Football Manager is a roll playing game of a different nature. And let me tell you, there's not a day I can't turn on my playstation or Xbox or Laptop or Macbook or work computer without a Download being available to upgrade the system.

So perhaps I should write to PS and XBOX and Apple and Windows and Linux and tell them "I bought your software it's buggy I don't want you to release your New OS until you have all the bugs ironed out..."

[Nadessico]

oh dear, people complaing about a game that's never completed, make sure they never discover the EA forums

[numbas2]

I know, EA drove me mad! I don't have a problem with FM/SI, but I have a problem with EA ignoring simply-to-fix issues with FIFA, problems which present themselves in each version of the game!

Just sort it out EA!!! The most ridiculous things happen on FIFA and they don't fix them. They prefer to spend money on DLC/Xbox Live/PSN etc. So, so angry... but that's not for these boards... so I'll get my coat...

[The Lambs]

The Lambs looks around at the circle of people, takes a deep breath, stands up and speaks:

"My name is The Lambs, and I a Fan Boy!"

"It is 3 years since my last game of FIFA!"

[ATW]

He's right. And this is the plague of the game industry - pushed and pushed so games are no longer released fully tested.

NOT GOOD ENOUGH. I point at FIFA my primary target.

SI, well, I have always known it to work this way... with the competition in the same boat, nothing changes.

Ideally they would break for a year so they can get the game PERFECT.

Like COD, where Activision and ****** (whoever made COD:WoW) alternate to allow more game development and bug killing.

Activision publish both... It's Infinty Ward and Tryarch that alternate between the games. Saying that IW/Activision released Modern Warefare 2 - a supposed ground breaking game.

I have to admit it was groundbreaking.... for the amount of bugs! The amount of glitches, especially on Multiplayer was rediculous.

[numbas2]

I never got too much into MW2. COD4 they fixed online bugs very quickly. Online issues are separate issues to offline gameplay - and that's where games are failing at the moment IMO. I remember the old days when internet wasn't associated so heavily to gaming, and the games were released and i never really saw any bugs!

[backpackant]

The other thing to consider, of course, is what a bug-free game will actually look like? What IS "bug-free"? Perfection?

Someone mentioned newgens "actually getting fixed", well I've not really got many complaints, aside from how reputation affects their decision making, but overall it's very subjective.

Much like the game engine itself. What is "perfect"? A computer game that absolutely 100% reflects real football? Sorry, but it is simply impossible to programme that level of complexity in 1, 2 or even 10 years. It'll never happen. Those dreaming of a perfect game, please remember, what you are actually discussing is a

SIMULATION

of

REAL LIFE.

Even if the Starship Enterprise were to open up its holodeck to the FM programmers, I doubt they'd get it spot-on.

Beta testing detects the worst of the bugs every year and the programmers squash them; then the smaller bugs are highlighted and squashed; and the nearer to release date, the more bugs get elliminated, but of course not all are spotted, or if they are there simply isn't the time to fix them properly. Fix one bug and that fix can have a worse knock-on effect elsewhere, such is the complex nature of football and the even more complex nature of programming a simulation of football.

It'll never be perfect. All we can do is continue to push and highlight those bugs we feel are game breakers. Personally, this year, I didn't find any game-breakers. A few annoyances, but nothing to stop me playing altogether.

[pnefc22]

Also, you can't complain about the standard of footballers in the future, as you don't know what they are going to be like IRL. They could be a lot worse than they are now in the future.

[Blanchflower1]

I know, EA drove me mad! I don't have a problem with FM/SI, but I have a problem with EA ignoring simply-to-fix issues with FIFA, problems which present themselves in each version of the game!

Just sort it out EA!!! The most ridiculous things happen on FIFA and they don't fix them. They prefer to spend money on DLC/Xbox Live/PSN etc. So, so angry... but that's not for these boards... so I'll get my coat...

Thank goodness SI is not like EA! What are you guys complaining about SI for? Spoilt brats!!! This reminds me of my country Singapore where Singaporeans complain about every MINOR flaw in the system and don't realize how lucky they are to be Singaporeans living in a very efficient country!

The same is with SI! SI rocks and no other gaming company comes close!