Be FAIR - Time for Sports Interactive to buck the trend stop ripping customers off.

[Blanchflower1]

Thank goodness SI is not like EA! What are you guys complaining about SI for? Spoilt brats!!! This reminds me of my country Singapore where Singaporeans complain about every MINOR flaw in the system and don't realize how lucky they are to be Singaporeans living in a very efficient country!

The same is with SI! SI rocks and no other gaming company comes close!

However the only complain I have is the 127 goal per season issue! That needs fixing!

[B4L]

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not here to moan ...

...

So I know SI will never do this because of the amount of money they make from their customers every year doing things this way, and appreciate this post is pointless. But if someone from SI reads it then at least they'll know that we're not ALL happy sheeps delighted at being ripped off like this on a yearly basis, and they'll know that there is a different, more honest way of making money from FM.

Looks like moaning to me ...

From my point of view I get a lot of value for the money I spend on FM games compared to most (if not all) other forms of entertainment I enjoy and especially so when it comes to games. As perfection is an intangiable not to mention unobtainable state the important thing to me is weather or not the franchise is moving in the right direction. I have enjoyed each game I have bought (I tend to skip a version every now and then for various reasons) more than the previous one so for me the answer is yes.

I seriously doubt that you would get what you want if they adapted your business model. Obviously they would never ever do that because it looks like a awfully poor piece of business. Furthermore I think that your perception of concepts such as "being ripped off" and "making money in an honest way" etc etc are seriously flawed and will constitute a huge stumbling block in terms of you being taken seriously, assuming that was your intention in the first place.

[bigdunk]

Here's the simple idea. Or more like a dream since it's pretty unrealistic:

SI Release "FM 3". It is for the 2010/11 season. It costs £30, and is shipped with no major bugs and well developed long-term gameplay (finally regens are "fixed"), having been tested fully and for a lengthy period of time during it's open BETA. At the end of that season, they release DLC for 2011/12, costing around £9 - the database is updated, a few improvements and enhancements to the teamtalks, media handling, match engine, tactics, efficiencies, compatability, so on and so forth. FM 3: Season 11/12 is available for those who don't have FM 3. They do the same for DLC 2012/13 - but during this time, they start development on "FM 4". The match engine will be overhauled, new graphics, new interface, new media style talks, new hardware to work with (maybe 50+ core CPU's), maybe have radical ideas and changes like having yourself in the game and visible (so you're actually at press-conferences facing the press - like you see in the news), maybe you can even visibly see whats going on in training. Whatever. FM 4 is the full retail game, costing the full amount of £30, and SI takes it's time to develop it, and releases it again without the major hiccups they've experienced in 08-10.

Now, would that be so bad for SI and for us? I certainly think it's better than SI releasing a flawed, rushed version every single year because of the pressures of meeting deadlines and charging full amounts for it (or expecting customers to wait till the real-life footballing season is in it's final quarter before playing a fully patched version of the game initially released 6 months ago).

Anyway this is my last post in this thread, I think I've made myself clear and made all the points I wanted to make, so theres nothing more to add. Except for expecting more fanboys to post more nonsense in here defending SI to the hilt without bothering to read through it.

The fundamental problem with that is you're effectively asking SI to develop two games (the DLC from the older games and the newer game) instead of one, while their annual income goes down by over two thirds (a drop from an average retail price of £30 to £9 for the intervening years). No company is going to happily slash their income like that anyway and to ask them to take on additional work at the same time is ludicrous. That's before we get onto issues like having to have two separate codebases, so any features that appear in the DLC are going to need additional work if they are added to the new version of FM.

You have to realise that each FM being an upgrade of a previous one is a good thing. CM4 was in development for several years behind the scenes at SI before it was released, and that codebase has since had 9(?) years effort from the full development staff at SI since then. It was apparently designed to make swapping in new modules very easy which is why things like teamtalks, press conferences, the new tactics interface, the 3d match engine, the new training system etc have been added in without major rewrites elsewhere. Doing a full rewrite now makes no sense. You'd have to recreate masses of funtionality that wouldn't be significantly different from what exists in FM10.

[Neil Brock]

Some really amazing stuff in this thread, conspiracy theories galore, rantings, constructive criticism and people defending their opinions to the hilt.

Personally I don't think Football Manager is a "bug-plagued/flawed version", we work very hard trying to make the game as bug free as possible, with a full time testing team not to mention a Beta Testing group of hundreds of users which starts months before the game is released. Not to mention the fact we try to listen to our consumers, have a voice on these forums and attempt to rectify problems found as best we can. In the last two versions we have released patches pretty much on the day of release to help deal with issues we feel could be detrimental to our users and never has this company attempted to charge anything for patches or updates.

Every version there have been changes, some more obvious than others. This last version more time was spent on fixes 'under the hood' so to speak and trying to make the game as bug-free as possible. Some of the criticism we receive on these forums we do take to heart, I find it quite staggering when SI staffers are accused of being 'all about the money.' Put simply we play the game and we all want it to be as good as possible, so not only you can enjoy playing it, but we can too.

However business is business, if we don't make any money from the game we'd probably cease to exist and simply put there would be no Football Manager. For a game which can be purchased from as little as £20 on release day if you shop around (and to the person that says 50 Euros is £55 - you need to check your exchange rate calculator! ) - but even if paying closer to £40, the majority of users get hours and hours of gameplay - so do the math and for the majority it still works out as a bargain.

If you don't enjoy the game then that's your opinion. We don't force the game on people who don't want to play it. However we do listen to people who have good ideas and constructive feedback. so if you really want to help improve the game, volunteer when the chance arises to be on our Beta, post on these forums and generally get in touch. Cheers.

[bill93]

Totally agree with Neil Brock. I think the amount of playing hours I get is great value for money. The DLC is simply not a financially viable option, simple as.

Tmonkey,What do you think SI does with your money? sit on a pile of it and plot world domination or something . I think people should be less cynical, they are a company therefore they need money.

[x42bn6]

DLC is only viable for games that are purely additions (i.e. new levels, maps, new campaign) - not really things that need to be modified by quite a bit. It's quicker and cheaper - yes, cheaper - to make a whole new game.

[Gattacca]

With the advent of DLC, we're starting to see more companies release half-completed games with additional content released at later dates which customers have to pay for in order to get the full experience. The "new content" differs from game to game, it usually includes new maps/campaigns/stories, but also new weapons/equipment/abilities, game modes, additional characters, additional multiplayer features, etc etc.

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not here to moan about Sports Interactive rushing for the Christmas deadline every year and releasing a bug-plagued/flawed version of whatever new FM is released so that people can "get paid" and the top people can "get paid BIG", prior of course to patching it a few months later. Then dumping it officially when it comes to March the year after release.

What I am suggesting is that the changes between iterations of FM, e.g. from FM 2009 to FM 2010, is exactly what should be described as being DLC. You have "new" content such as a few minor additional features (camera improvements, crowds, match engine, media interaction, teamtalks, etc), some game enhancements/efficiencies, with the bulk of the new "content" being an updated official database. However, the core game is still the same as the previous iteration. Look beyond the sales marketing where minor things are made out to be major changes, and it's just an upgrade, nothing more, as opposed to being a whole new game itself.

So in the interest of fairness to the customer, shouldn't Sports Interactive just release FM 2011 as DLC for those who already own 2010? Instead of charging £25 retail for an upgraded version of FM 2010, charge us £7 for upgrading FM 2010 to 2011, and again charge a similar amount for the upgraded content for 2012, so on and so forth. Only charge us the full retail bang whenever we get a genuine new game with new code written from the ground up implementing new technologies. That way they're merely upgrading a good game every year (in between the iterations) instead of every year releasing a bugged game at full price (that is still an upgrade of the previous game), and furthermore gives them more time to release a proper, fully functionally, minimal bug-ridden full priced retail iteration when it comes to time to releasing one.

You might say "well then, noonce is forcing you to buy FM 11", which is true, but then by dropping FM 10 when it's still far from perfect, adding additional features that should be in FM 10 in the first place, and fixing some of the things that are wrong with FM 10 but in FM 11 only, I'm being forced to either buy FM 11 or just bin FM 10. And that's a shame, because FM 10 is alright, it just needs some upgrading and further enhancements.

So I know SI will never do this because of the amount of money they make from their customers every year doing things this way, and appreciate this post is pointless. But if someone from SI reads it then at least they'll know that we're not ALL happy sheeps delighted at being ripped off like this on a yearly basis, and they'll know that there is a different, more honest way of making money from FM.

Your an idiot. What the hell do you think EA do with Fifa? and the people who make Pro Evolution etc? They are all the same game with slight enhancements. Jeez get a life loser

[x42bn6]

What did he ever do to you?

[FrazerBleedsLiverpoolRed]

You pay your money and play solidly for 12 months. Good for you. I'm not, as for the most part the game is bugged (10.3 came 6 months after release - so for 6 months we had a flawed game, and that's only a few months before the real world season is over). And I don't like the same game being released with minor enhancements. Hence why I'm complaining.

I just don't understand all this hype about bugs. You expect one or two because that's modern software for you. I've never encountered a bug to be honest, probably because i don't go looking for them.

On the other hand, some of your points I agree with for example SI abandoning the old version after releasing the new game. But what would be the cut off point? SI is a small company with specialist staff and they can't exactly continue with 2005 just for the minority surely?

[Neil Brock]

Oh to be fair about 'abandoning' older versions, yeah we just don't have the resources to spend time on improving older versions in any way, but if you need support and get in touch we'll try to help in whatever way we can. I still get the odd email about EHM and we help where we can!

[Finknottle]

I feel that the FM series are very good value, just take a look at any and all of the dreadful EA football games. I would like SI to improve the scouting and transfer market to be made more realistic. Scouts still come back with players that you have not asked the for. In the transfer market it sometimes seems to be either too easy to get a new player or that he will not come at all, no matter who you are. Finally, I hope that SI will improve the already very good 3d match. Kind regards.

[champ 01/02]

tbh i agree with neil brock and I think fm is excellent value for money

[Myros]

To be honest I agree with some of the points the OP makes. I have long advocated an abandoning of the short develoment time (ie about 6 months) as it does nothing to really advance the genre. It ends up being very small changes that improve things but do not push the game or genre forward.

Revolutionary changes and groundbreaking new features would take far longer than the normal development cycles used here and at the other dev teams, they all seem to be trapped in this same rut.

SI did show some sense though when they developed the 3d engine, with a seperate team working behind the scenes for an extra year. Thats the kind of thing that should always be done.

To be honest I just dont buy the game if I dont see enough large changes between versions. Im just not paying full price for the same game with an 'updated scouting system' or something. What you do with your money is your own business of course ;p For me I end up paying for the game every 2 years as thats usualy about how long it takes for any real change to be made.

[grade]

Oh to be fair about 'abandoning' older versions, yeah we just don't have the resources to spend time on improving older versions in any way, but if you need support and get in touch we'll try to help in whatever way we can. I still get the odd email about EHM and we help where we can!

Well it is nice to hear when you resolve old FM games problems (like installation problems or the save game won't load kind of problems) that you are ready to help. And I congrats you with that.

My problems with FM si basically, something you no longer support. Like changing the 5 subs to 7 in english league, for example. And was stated by someone from SI here don't recall who that said it, during the FM08 had that sub change in one of its updates, that stated quite literally: "We no longer support FM07!"

So sorry for the confusion.

However business is business, if we don't make any money from the game we'd probably cease to exist and simply put there would be no Football Manager. For a game which can be purchased from as little as £20 on release day if you shop around (and to the person that says 50 Euros is £55 - you need to check your exchange rate calculator! ) - but even if paying closer to £40, the majority of users get hours and hours of gameplay - so do the math and for the majority it still works out as a bargain.

Well the exchange rate was using last week exchange rate between the Euro and the Pound, it is simply checking what is the current one and make the calculations. However I can guarantee you that the price in majority of stores here is whopping 50 euros... ok it is really 49.99€.

I know that SI doesn't set the price and all of that, and I even don't know if it is Sega. But 50 euros is little bit much.

[SFraser]

Some really amazing stuff in this thread, conspiracy theories galore, rantings, constructive criticism and people defending their opinions to the hilt.

Personally I don't think Football Manager is a "bug-plagued/flawed version", we work very hard trying to make the game as bug free as possible, with a full time testing team not to mention a Beta Testing group of hundreds of users which starts months before the game is released. Not to mention the fact we try to listen to our consumers, have a voice on these forums and attempt to rectify problems found as best we can. In the last two versions we have released patches pretty much on the day of release to help deal with issues we feel could be detrimental to our users and never has this company attempted to charge anything for patches or updates.

Every version there have been changes, some more obvious than others. This last version more time was spent on fixes 'under the hood' so to speak and trying to make the game as bug-free as possible. Some of the criticism we receive on these forums we do take to heart, I find it quite staggering when SI staffers are accused of being 'all about the money.' Put simply we play the game and we all want it to be as good as possible, so not only you can enjoy playing it, but we can too.

However business is business, if we don't make any money from the game we'd probably cease to exist and simply put there would be no Football Manager. For a game which can be purchased from as little as £20 on release day if you shop around (and to the person that says 50 Euros is £55 - you need to check your exchange rate calculator! ) - but even if paying closer to £40, the majority of users get hours and hours of gameplay - so do the math and for the majority it still works out as a bargain.

If you don't enjoy the game then that's your opinion. We don't force the game on people who don't want to play it. However we do listen to people who have good ideas and constructive feedback. so if you really want to help improve the game, volunteer when the chance arises to be on our Beta, post on these forums and generally get in touch. Cheers.

Two points:

1: I think the level of improvement over the last couple of "seasons" has been impressive. The match engine/mechanic changes for FM09 were impressive despite the widespread criticism of immense difficulty and user-unfriendliness, while the interface and "superficial" changes for FM10 made the whole FM09 engine so much more playable and deeply engaging.

The last two versions of FM have been my favourites by far, and show a trend that I would not be unhappy paying for each year if it continues with the same level of quality of development.

2: If you want more/other people to join the beta, stop sending e-mails that need to be signed by hand. FM has by far the most inhibitive beta testing process I have seen, purely because it demands either a printer or access to a library with a printer. It might not seem to be a major issue for you, but it can be quite a problem for others. I have been invited several times and failed to join several times purely because of this issue. I'm thinking of mail ordering a printer for FM11 but spending £50-100 quid purely to say "yes I agree" makes my teeth clench. Can you not send letters instead, or atleast send letters to those that ask for one? I.e. any chance you could send me a letter I could return with my signature?

[edgar555]

Your an idiot. What the hell do you think EA do with Fifa? and the people who make Pro Evolution etc? They are all the same game with slight enhancements. Jeez get a life loser

Dude, I clearly had issues with the idea, but do you really think your post is the best way to express your disagreement? Poor form.

Would like to thank Neil for his comments, good to see SI continue to listen to their customers (not that some of us ever doubted that).

How does one become a beta tester?

[grade]

Dude, I clearly had issues with the idea, but do you really think your post is the best way to express your disagreement? Poor form.

Would like to thank Neil for his comments, good to see SI continue to listen to their customers (not that some of us ever doubted that).

How does one become a beta tester?

You put a very well place question.

[ToffeeDave]

I got fed up reading about how we do all the hard work to find all the bugs and that the people at SI are required to find all of them and then finally release it. If you agree with that point, hit alt+F4 to fix bugs. In seriousness, think about how many hours are spent by the amount of users on this game, then think of how much that would cost paying minimum wage for them to be testers. As an avid pc-gamer, I have no problem buying a game and reporting back to a company about minor bugs I found and they fix in FREE patches which then ensures I have a quality game to enjoy for years when the process is done(maybe 6 months). If you have a problem with it, what is so hard about simply leap-frogging your game purchase. I bought FM10, wont buy FM11, cant wait for FM12.

[Daffie]

Well the exchange rate was using last week exchange rate between the Euro and the Pound, it is simply checking what is the current one and make the calculations. However I can guarantee you that the price in majority of stores here is whopping 50 euros... ok it is really 49.99€.

I know that SI doesn't set the price and all of that, and I even don't know if it is Sega. But 50 euros is little bit much.

Ever heard of online internet shops?

You should try it and get yourself a VISA or MASTERCARD (or loan it from someone if you are not 18 years old yet)

[Nobby_McDonald]

I noticed tmonkey conveniently ignored me when I asked if he buys every version of FM. He's clearly seen it too, given that one of his posts immediately followed it.

His silence kind of makes his argument mute.

[edgar555]

I noticed tmonkey conveniently ignored me when I asked if he buys every version of FM. He's clearly seen it too, given that one of his posts immediately followed it.

His silence kind of makes his argument mute.

Of course, he ran away when the going got tough.

It was just an attention seeking thread.

As I said before, it was a shame because in his one moment of lucidity he made some good suggestions. Wonder if he's added them to the wishlist?

[Neil Brock]

Dude, I clearly had issues with the idea, but do you really think your post is the best way to express your disagreement? Poor form.

Would like to thank Neil for his comments, good to see SI continue to listen to their customers (not that some of us ever doubted that).

How does one become a beta tester?

In the past we have used an 'open invite' system where we have simply created a thread on the forums asking who wants to take part. Now we've got a few beta testers who have helped out over the last two versions I'm not certain what procedure we'll go with this year, but if you post often on the bugs forum and in GD then you're only helping your cause if you want to be involved.

[edgar555]

In the past we have used an 'open invite' system where we have simply created a thread on the forums asking who wants to take part. Now we've got a few beta testers who have helped out over the last two versions I'm not certain what procedure we'll go with this year, but if you post often on the bugs forum and in GD then you're only helping your cause if you want to be involved.

Thanks.

[grade]

Ever heard of online internet shops?

You should try it and get yourself a VISA or MASTERCARD (or loan it from someone if you are not 18 years old yet)

Well at least I learn my lesson from my PS3 games and started to order every game that i order them through amazon. Since the price of PS3 game here in Portugal is 70 euros. I was kind of shocked to see how cheap the games were in the UK. So now if there is game I want I always order it through amazon.

Ever since FM07 I order FM through amazon. But I hear the nagging of my friends that paid 50 euros for it and me the game with expenses of postal services and VAT was half the price.

What I don't agree is that the difference of price here is almost twice then it is in the UK.

[Brian Shanahan]

What I don't agree is that the difference of price here is almost twice then it is in the UK.

Well then, the problem is almost definitely going to be with the Portuguese shops. Being Irish, the shop price is slightly dearer than the UK one. €34.99 compared to £30 for release day FM10, with the conversion rate most of the difference was taken up by the VAT differential.

If you really wast shop prices to come down, an organised boycott of the particular shops is probably the best option.

[Ranbir]

If DLC can provide further match engine updates (instead of just stopping at January, while FML continually getting improvements) and it maybe sort of allows a longer game between each main title, I'd be for it.

But apparently SI must release a new FM game annually so meh.

[Whoofe]

i've been quite happy with the patched version of the game, and i think they are charging a fair price.

(if i didn't think it wasn't a fair price, i wouldn't buy it - thats how pricing works, duh)

keep up the good work and keep improving the game each year!

[DirtyACE]

Some of the posts here are surprising to say the least. The lack of appreciation of what you actually have in FM is a bit sad. A game that is made essentially by players for players. Plus you get the type of interaction between the developers and the community, which is rare in this day and age. I'll be honest, FM is not the only game I enjoy, however, my scope of game titles is slowly shrinking because more and more developers seem to be becoming EA clones.

I'll give one good example of this, Creative Assembly Studios (CA), the makers of the Total War series. Some of you are probably familiar with it. They used to have great reputation for the product they released and the interaction with their fan base. However, the last couple of releases have been, well, rather horrible. Their title, Empire Total War, was basically released in its Beta stage, yet labeled as a finished effort. Something that the developers would never admit, even though it was extremely obvious by just how much the game was incomplete. Prior to the release, there was a considerable marketing campaign which promised so much for this title. It was going to be a revolutionary step in strategy game genre. What the players got was almost a half-complete piece of software. Then CA announced that they were happy with their effort and were not going to support the game. This caused a huge outrage from their community. Only after that did the developer decided to release some patches (3 or 4), which I might add solved very little and the game remained very much incomplete. Eventually CA simply said that they were done with it and were moving onto other projects. They essentially dumped the whole game, washed their hands of it, and then crossed their fingers in hope that their community would somehow forget about it and buy their next title.

[chob]

I'm very happy with SI and FM as a whole, so I don't really agree with the OP.

However I do have 1 problem with FM10 and that's the crash dumps. I can't get a long term save going because of it but apart from that the game is great. Maybe I need a new desktop as I haven't had a single crash dump on my newer laptop (which runs slower though).

I hope the crash dumps are sorted for FM11, if so I will defo buy it, probably still buy it anyway as I love FM lol.

[Guest]

For me, £25 a year is an absolute bargin for the amount of time i spend playing it..I just cant see how you can come to the conclusion that SI are trying to rip you off..

This..

[santy001]

Technically, every game is an upgrade from the very basics way back even before space invaders and the like. The simple matter of fact is, each of these 'minor' upgrades still take hours of testing, if SI moved out to asia and began embarking upon a bit of slave labour, sweat shop testing and the likes they might be able to make enough of a saving to sell the game for £7 and still turn a tidy profit. When it comes to games like FIFA, its left in the hands of EA canada I believe, its almost the same as asking someone who's dairy intolerant to do some taste testing on cheese, sure it can be done, but its a damn stupid idea.

With SI you first and foremost have people who understand what football is all about, but they employ people in this country too and don't go abroad where its cheaper or anything like that, so the game being £25 is a bargain considering how much extra that inflates costs. If you want to be angry at developers, go bug activision, because their plan is to get everyone to buy CoD4 again, to play on MW2 just so that MW2 becomes a good game. I don't know if they got rid of the old map designers, but now its all about bottlenecks and forcing the action into like 3 square feet - god knows whatever happened to open, fair and balanced maps.

The thing is FM is always going to be 'in-progress' as it works towards emulating real life football more and more, if you don't like it too much, take a break from the series for 10 years and come back, technology should have moved on sufficiently enough then for the game to show massive improvements, like FM10 does over the version of the game back from the 99/00 season.

[animal]

Fm2010 = Great

Form consistancy = Fake

fm2011 = FIX FORM CODE

[Almondo]

Technically, every game is an upgrade from the very basics way back even before space invaders and the like. The simple matter of fact is, each of these 'minor' upgrades still take hours of testing, if SI moved out to asia and began embarking upon a bit of slave labour, sweat shop testing and the likes they might be able to make enough of a saving to sell the game for £7 and still turn a tidy profit. When it comes to games like FIFA, its left in the hands of EA canada I believe, its almost the same as asking someone who's dairy intolerant to do some taste testing on cheese, sure it can be done, but its a damn stupid idea.

With SI you first and foremost have people who understand what football is all about, but they employ people in this country too and don't go abroad where its cheaper or anything like that, so the game being £25 is a bargain considering how much extra that inflates costs. If you want to be angry at developers, go bug activision, because their plan is to get everyone to buy CoD4 again, to play on MW2 just so that MW2 becomes a good game. I don't know if they got rid of the old map designers, but now its all about bottlenecks and forcing the action into like 3 square feet - god knows whatever happened to open, fair and balanced maps.

The thing is FM is always going to be 'in-progress' as it works towards emulating real life football more and more, if you don't like it too much, take a break from the series for 10 years and come back, technology should have moved on sufficiently enough then for the game to show massive improvements, like FM10 does over the version of the game back from the 99/00 season.

This says it all to me. Especially about Activision I mean they're actively seeking to rip off the customer (come on a RRP of £55 for MW2). Oh and about the open and fair maps get Battlefield: bad company 2 for those.

[edgar555]

Fm2010 = Great

Form consistancy = Fake

fm2011 = FIX FORM CODE

Don't know about anyone else but I have no idea what you mean.

[Cougar2010]

Fm2010 = Great

Form consistancy = Fake

fm2011 = FIX FORM CODE

Don't know about anyone else but I have no idea what you mean.

and what has it got to do with this thread?

[Bakkels]

I too am surprised at the cynical attitude some people have.

FM I think is the most rewarding game in terms of price / quality. If I calculate the price I paid per hour of playing time, FM is by far the cheapest game I ever played. (just wondering btw, if you guys at SI ever did some research into the average per user playing time?). Besides that, FM10 is the best version since a while when it comes to bugs IMO. Proving SI are genuinely making an effort there. (Though the language bugs keep annoying me, playing the Dutch version). Also the developers keep finetuning every release, like DirtyACE said, and name me one other game where you can directly discuss with the developers about the game?

Anyway, there's my two cents.

[anthony wright]

They released FM 2010 in mid to late October 2009. They then patched it up to 10.3 at the end of Feb 2010. That's 6 months. That's the last of their updates. That's the end of their support for FM 2010, a game still retailing at around £15-20 in many places. Do you find this acceptable, irrespective of whether EA & Co do the same with FIFA or not?

You pay your money and play solidly for 12 months. Good for you. I'm not, as for the most part the game is bugged (10.3 came 6 months after release - so for 6 months we had a flawed game, and that's only a few months before the real world season is over). And I don't like the same game being released with minor enhancements. Hence why I'm complaining.

No, I'm not their accountant. Given that you aren't either, and that YOURE the one who said they'd go bust if they used chargable DLC instead of full priced retail games, surely its your onus to explain what that's based on? Mine is the simple logic that if they took the DLC route, then they'd reduce their expenses based on whatever the budget for DLCs is in relation to expected revenues, whilst focusing additional resources on whenever a genuinely new FM was to be created.

I know the hidden attributes are rubbish because I use in game scouts. Why am I looking? Because I want to find good players and because I have vain hopes of the standard of players in year 20 being similar to the standard of player in year 1 (i.e. at the start of the game). Because SI couldn't care less about long-term games it seems based on the fact that it's still abysmal/sub standard compared to start-game stats, playing a long term FM game isn't very enjoyable for me personally. Others like it and adapt to whatever the game throws at them. To each their own.

Who supports games for years - many developers do. Valve with Team Fortress 2 being the best example. They've added massive changes for free - new maps, new modes, new weapons, so on and so forth. Others will constantly bring out improvements and bug fixes, even Infinity Ward do this. Granted, some like EA will dump their sports titles after the year is over, but then we're not talking about them - go to EA forums and you'll find a few similar complaints.

If you dont understand how they'll make FM11 whilst they continue to work on FM10, then you don't have much of an idea about business or how the gaming industry works. How do you think development studios who haven't released a big game in the past year manage to fund the project for a new game?

SI is quite a smal company with less resources than some of the big boys. If time is taken up on patches for FM10 it will have a detrimental effect on FM11.

I have happily played both FM09 and FM10 straight out of the box, I think that patches seem to create more problems than they solve, I know that is just my opinion but for me it works and I agree with one of the other posters that if you look for bugs you can always find them.

My only concern is that with the competition so weak will that drive sufficient improvements.

My suggestion would be that if you are not hapy with the series then don't play it. Your suggestions are not that constructive to be honest.

[Rossi23]

YOU MUST WORK ON THE VISUAL SIDE OF THE GAME!

-SI must include many more types of stadiums within the game so as nnot to be so boring visually.

They should include some traditional European stadiums, like Bernabeu, Nou Camp, Allianz, etc. This would enhance the feeling of success of getting there.

If they cannot do it they may leave it open for the modders to add stadiums that can index with certain teams in the database. Stadium1,stadium2, etc.

We are in 2010, the graphics are 20 years back even for a management game.

A-lso an opening ceremony for European games would be fantastic. Let us add the CL details if there is a licence problem

ALSO

-It should not be so easy. It is not possible to achieve CL status with any team in 2-3 years time

- More AI tactical flexibility. They need a goal to go ahead in CL in the dying minutes and they keep the same defensive formation that they started with

- Enhance Managers Personal Status improvement through different ways apart from reputation (bank account, etc)

Perhaps allow the maanger to define the exact positions of players for corners, free-kicks etc.

- Allow the manager to decide the pre-season. When, where (Dubai, Switzerland, Austria, Italy), and relate this to status and results of pre-season.

- Allow the manager to define the pre-season in such a way so as to aim for full form on a certain period of the year

- Opposition scounting is currently dreadful. We need analysis with numbers, opposition game plans, etc

- Relate certain teams to certain ways of play (i.eBarcelona attacking play)

- We know the world of football with certain big teams today. I would like to see new teams to pop up but it is not possible to see Barcelona, Juventus, Inter, Man Utd in local leagues after 10 seasons. Reality must be sustained

-Include managers future trasfers in the editor (i.e Mourinho to Real).

-Include Managers' interest for certain players (i.e guardiola -villa) so as to become future transfer targets for the club

After so many years of a good game that is being stable but more boring year after year, are you ready for some radical imporvements at last?

[SFraser]

Some of the posts here are surprising to say the least. The lack of appreciation of what you actually have in FM is a bit sad. A game that is made essentially by players for players. Plus you get the type of interaction between the developers and the community, which is rare in this day and age. I'll be honest, FM is not the only game I enjoy, however, my scope of game titles is slowly shrinking because more and more developers seem to be becoming EA clones.

I'll give one good example of this, Creative Assembly Studios (CA), the makers of the Total War series. Some of you are probably familiar with it. They used to have great reputation for the product they released and the interaction with their fan base. However, the last couple of releases have been, well, rather horrible. Their title, Empire Total War, was basically released in its Beta stage, yet labeled as a finished effort. Something that the developers would never admit, even though it was extremely obvious by just how much the game was incomplete. Prior to the release, there was a considerable marketing campaign which promised so much for this title. It was going to be a revolutionary step in strategy game genre. What the players got was almost a half-complete piece of software. Then CA announced that they were happy with their effort and were not going to support the game. This caused a huge outrage from their community. Only after that did the developer decided to release some patches (3 or 4), which I might add solved very little and the game remained very much incomplete. Eventually CA simply said that they were done with it and were moving onto other projects. They essentially dumped the whole game, washed their hands of it, and then crossed their fingers in hope that their community would somehow forget about it and buy their next title.

CA created Empire : Total War. (Which I didn't buy because the above was obvious before release.)

The Europa Barbarorum team created this:

And ofcourse when you select the unit, it calls out it's name in proto-Germanic.

There is nothing quite like your Xosenthōzez Xazdādoi and Xerunoudōzez being hard pressed in a battle in the middle of a dense forest against the Romani, and then hearing the proto-Germanic call of your Worgōzez emerging from the black at the crucial point of the battle.

The closest thing is the call of the Belgae Milnaht or indeed the Gaesatae, but there is entire forum for this discussion elsewhere.

Safe to say I agree with you completely. Thanks to CA for making the engine, but the games they produce are terrible.

YOU MUST WORK ON THE VISUAL SIDE OF THE GAME!

-SI must include many more types of stadiums within the game so as nnot to be so boring visually.

They should include some traditional European stadiums, like Bernabeu, Nou Camp, Allianz, etc.

Just no. Not ever. See above.

[Wakers]

Sometimes I really do think that FM would benefit from a much longer development cycle. The last few versions have gone downhill for me - although FM10 is far superior to 09, it's still not got the playability factor of FM05 - 6 - 7. That and it's still very, very clunky. The game gradually bogs itself down over time, the long term issues haven't been looked at since FM05 either.

In a perfect world they would make a new version of the game every 2 years, with the season in between being released as either a free or micro-transaction update. Whether that works for them as a business is another matter, and they certainly get plenty from the enthusiasts and mindless sheep alike each season.

[silv3rf0xx]

i have read alot of these posts and think that both sides have a case but my thoughts are slightly different. i know its a rip off but i cant help it its the new season im an idiot football fan and want the new season game almost all the time if i cant afford it i wait till i can i was thinking maybe they could rotate developers might not work but cod uses this and i found it generally pleases all as you get the support for an entire year well as much as is needed and a new game soon to be released. i must appologise if im wrong but it was just a thought that popped in my head i didnt research or think for days its just something that came up when reading these.but to get too serious over opinions is silly although i do it at times you all have valid cases but there is a middle ground the game! otherwise why is the conversation happening

[VMX]

lol, are you kidding?

You seem to forget what the prices of those games and their "DLC's" are, compared to FM. FM is already ridiculously cheap for such a dense and replayable (up to infinity) game, as you can keep playing any FM version for as long as your hard drive allows (the only limitation being the size of your savegame file). Not to mention starting a new challenge with a new team anywhere in the world. Most games aren't like that, because once you finish the storyline, the real fun (or even the game itself) pretty much ends.

The fact that SI release a new FM iteration every year doesn't mean that less effort goes into it. You say that it's just an update which includes things like "(camera improvements, crowds, match engine, media interaction, teamtalks, etc), some game enhancements/efficiencies". First, you obviously have very little knowledge of what the game actually has inside it. LOTS (hundreds) of additions go into each new version. You just can't see them when you play your first match, unlike PES or FIFA, because those games' content is 90% about the match engine, while FM content is not. And second, you don't seem to realize that other games do the same thing, with an improved graphics engine. The fact that FM doesn't need a new "plot" every year or that its graphical appearance doesn't significantly change doesn't make it any less of a "new game" than the others.

It's like saying that once you buy a book of a trilogy, you should only pay a little fraction of the price for the second and third ones because the external shape and physical aspect of the book hasn't changed much. All books look similarly, it's the content that changes. Most version of FM look very similar, despite the graphical changes. And that's because the actual content of the game is hidden beneath the skin you use to play it. Proof of this is the vast amount of skins designed for free by FM users after the each iteration comes out, some of them changing the game's look radically. This goes to show how insignificant and unimportant the graphical work is compared to the rest of the game.

And then, they don't charge a cent for the Christmas update with the new database... which is exactly what other kinds of games would classify as DLC and charge for.

Seriously dude, you can question several things about FM... but the pricing model is NOT one of them.

[Lankylars]

I played FM09 for 667 hours (sad, I know). It cost me $30 US. Simple math tells me that it cost me $0.045 - four and a half cents - per hour of game. When some other entertainment medium can rival this price, maybe you will have a point. FM is an incredible value for the money.

[Nobby_McDonald]

I've not got my game running right now, but my current save is approaching 22 days. Round up to that, that gives 528 hours. I think I paid £30 if memory serves (maybe a little less), but at £30 that is 5.68p per hour.

I'd say that's excellent value.

And there is still another five months until the next version, if I get it.

[crouchaldinho]

2: If you want more/other people to join the beta, stop sending e-mails that need to be signed by hand. FM has by far the most inhibitive beta testing process I have seen, purely because it demands either a printer or access to a library with a printer. It might not seem to be a major issue for you, but it can be quite a problem for others. I have been invited several times and failed to join several times purely because of this issue. I'm thinking of mail ordering a printer for FM11 but spending £50-100 quid purely to say "yes I agree" makes my teeth clench. Can you not send letters instead, or atleast send letters to those that ask for one? I.e. any chance you could send me a letter I could return with my signature?

Scan in or photograph your signature, then insert it into the document, and send via e-mail.

Easy.

[edgar555]

Scan in or photograph your signature, then insert it into the document, and send via e-mail.

Easy.

Or just use a signature generator off t'internet. They won't know its not your 'actual' signature! Well they will now, sorry!