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Djuicer

Will my team be able to pass their way to world domination?

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56 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Brilliant stuff!!!!

Thank you! the ME seems to like it too, unbeaten 37 games in :D

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Nice, im really waiting for the roles part. I fully go with the lower tempo and shorter passing way of seeing the total football the way we met it through guardiola.  I play almost the same with only pass into space added. Even went with much shorter and much lower and gone very good.

I have one question that's not exactly for your tactic or for you to answer but whats wrong with the inverted lust? If SI comes up with an inverted GK everybody will use him? I dont want to use that roles but can it be a possession 433 fully working tactic without that roles? The mentality issue you mention might be the missing part of what i look for.

Also funny is the whole trend with the possession with "intent"! Of course there is intent and, as you say ,you want to attack, but the same was with Sassuollo i played against who had 23% and they used that to attack 5 times, make 2 shots and score 1 goal. The same goes for RL Liverpool who doesnt care about having the ball a lot but winning the ball back quickly high up and burst with three passes.  There are only two ways of possession, defend and attack. Its really funny reading all of this, cause its as like we re trying to be academics here. :D  :D  :D 

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Awesome thread! Can't wait to read more mate. You are making it a hard act to follow for my next Total Football update :lol: Will need to step up my game 

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13 hours ago, Djuicer said:

This was originally my plan, to use one of each on either side, but there was a huge but here - the inside forward could not paired with the rest of the tactical setup get a mentality lower than very attacking and with the trequartista already being at that mentality I decided against that role. So now the only role left is the inverted winger.

And this is why it's important to look as player's mentality and not just team mentality. I've achieved great success when my IW's have "get into opposition area" trait. They will become goalscorers, but don't tend to be as "selfish" as Inside Forwards.

Alternatively, if you use the Overlap/Underlap/Focus down the flanks instructions, that will decrease the IFs mentality which will help increasing compactness.

Excellent thread.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

Nice, im really waiting for the roles part. I fully go with the lower tempo and shorter passing way of seeing the total football the way we met it through guardiola.  I play almost the same with only pass into space added. Even went with much shorter and much lower and gone very good.

I have one question that's not exactly for your tactic or for you to answer but whats wrong with the inverted lust? If SI comes up with an inverted GK everybody will use him? I dont want to use that roles but can it be a possession 433 fully working tactic without that roles? The mentality issue you mention might be the missing part of what i look for.

Also funny is the whole trend with the possession with "intent"! Of course there is intent and, as you say ,you want to attack, but the same was with Sassuollo i played against who had 23% and they used that to attack 5 times, make 2 shots and score 1 goal. The same goes for RL Liverpool who doesnt care about having the ball a lot but winning the ball back quickly high up and burst with three passes.  There are only two ways of possession, defend and attack. Its really funny reading all of this, cause its as like we re trying to be academics here. :D  :D  :D 

Pass into space is something I personally like but Im not sure its fitting for this purpose. Also, my possession numbers won't be acceptable with any more aggressive TIs.

I can try answer this though. Its a mix between flavour of the month, relatively new roles (this leading to them possibly being OP in the ME?) and probably Pep Guardiola. He used versions of the inverted players in all of his three clubs (Abidal, Lahm/Alaba and Zinchenko/Delph). When you think of it, it does make sense for JDP, if someone leaves a field of the pitch, you will try to fill that with an other player. Pep always want two players in every lateral zone. (which are those) in vertical lines. 

 JG4ETTo.jpg

 

Think thats also a victim of flavour of the month, and for someone like me (not native talker, only once been to UK) it might just be a lack of better words for it (but you are kind of right, Im attending university at this time :p). I would still say you miss one and possibly the most important aspect. The one inbetween defense and attack. The transition, Klopp has based his whole career around mastering this. 

 

12 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Awesome thread! Can't wait to read more mate. You are making it a hard act to follow for my next Total Football update :lol: Will need to step up my game 

Crumbling under the pressure are ya mate? :) Haha just kidding, you are far more accomplished at this than Im. Your total football saga was an inspiration for this.

 

3 hours ago, MadOnion said:

And this is why it's important to look as player's mentality and not just team mentality. I've achieved great success when my IW's have "get into opposition area" trait. They will become goalscorers, but don't tend to be as "selfish" as Inside Forwards.

Alternatively, if you use the Overlap/Underlap/Focus down the flanks instructions, that will decrease the IFs mentality which will help increasing compactness.

Excellent thread.

This! :applause:
Sterling for example has that trait. Very powerful combined with the right player.

Spoiler

U/Olap was considered but the full backs was getting attacking and that was a notch to much for my liking.

 

Edited by Djuicer

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Brillant. And moving from theory to fm is the real challenge. I wish you success in your ambitious project.

The JDP is for me a little bit ambivalence. It requires a lot of creativity and at the same time a lot of discipline. 

Juanma Lillo will be proud to see your desire to reproduce JDP in a game. :)

 

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8 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

Brillant. And moving from theory to fm is the real challenge. I wish you success in your ambitious project.

The JDP is for me a little bit ambivalence. It requires a lot of creativity and at the same time a lot of discipline. 

Juanma Lillo will be proud to see your desire to reproduce JDP in a game. :)

 

Thank you!

 

Yes, the things I think is the hardest to reproduce are the following. 

1 Players can not take turns at being offesive/holding. You have to choose one or the other. Which  reduces fluidity greatly. IRL the LB for example can attack and the RB hold his position at one time and the next time the relation is the opposite.

2 Roles, IRL a player can have one job during defensive play, another during transitions and a third when you are attacking. In the game you can only pick one.

A Solution might be to not only have three kind of TIs (possession, out of possesion and transition). But three whole fields, one with possession, one for transitions and the latest wo the ball. (I think they had this in like oold CM versions?)

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Posted (edited)


This is the third part of this series. First of all, I will try to give an explanation to some terms. First and most important the half space, what is it really? It is quite similar to the channels, but running into the channels is relative, it's always between a central defender and a full back. The half space is not relative, it's a fixed position. An important key aspect of JDP is to always keep two players in every vertical zone (wing, halfspace, centre, halfspace and wing).
JG4ETTo.jpg

 

According to https://www.scisports.com/the-half-spaces/
The halfspace is defined like this “The centre zone is closest to the goal and you can pass in every direction (left, right, forward, backward and four diagonals). However, this zone is also often the most crowded. The wing is usually less crowded, but has the disadvantage of the sideline, which allows players from passing to only half of the directions (forward, backward, left or right and two diagonals). When a player has the ball in the half space, he can still pass in every directon, similar to the centre, but he has the advantage of having more space than in the centre. It also has the added benefit of facing the goal diagonally instead of vertically, meaning that the player does not have to face away from the goal”.

 

Now lets move on to the midfield, I created this thread a while ago. It brought many thoughts and ideas about how a midfield can work, a lot of users chipped in great intel. I decided that my preferred midfield would include three different roles. Loosely based on some early to mid 2000 midfield trios, but also quite close to the one Manchester City uses today (Fernandinho, De Bruyne, D. Silva). The parts I want my midfield to have is a destroyer, a passer and a runner or if you will, a holding midfielder, a playmaker and a dribbler. Additionally to follow some requirements of the JDP the midfield must help the front three to occupy the half spaces.

 

First out from the team will be the right central midfielder. A role that all Pep Guardiola's team have used, the playmaker or “the main conductor”. The player responsible for linking together different parts of the team. I also wanted this player to be able to follow the play and take up good positions at all times. This leaves me with only one role really because the deeplying playmaker is too static, the advanced playmaker can do all this but is less involved in general play. So my first midfielder is the Roaming playmaker, a demanding role but with the right player it can and will be dominating matches. Regarding mentality the player will get a positive mentality. Which I think is great for the purposes and intentions this team has. The role comes with two preset instructions (roam from position and take more risk), I more than doubled those when I added three more PIs, moves into channels, run wide with the ball and more direct passing. With those additions I intended to get the RPM to play as close as possible to a mezzala. I have decided to call this role the roaming-mezzala-maker (I will keep RPM as the shortname). A secondary effect I hope this will have is that the RPM will help overloading the half spaces.
bIoyO5g.jpg

 

Roaming Playmaker Pros and Cons.
Pro’s
*Versatile playmaker
*Defends and attacks
*Roams around the pitch looking for space
*Likes to hit key-passes

Con's:
*Physically very demanding role.
*Due to the roaming he might get caught out of position at times.
*As the main conductor, the AI might mark him out of games.

 

The role who plays side to side with the playmaker/passer is the runner/dribbler. Popularly called the needle player, or in sweden the it-term is pocket player. This player has to be agile, a good dribbler and relatively fast. A drive to pick up good positions in and around the half space will also be important.I also want this player to be able to pick a pass and to chip in the additional goal. Regarding duty I would like this player to have an attacking one, but that will give him a very attacking mentality and I think the trequartista is the only free-loader the team can carry. Otherwise my whole pressing system probably would fall apart. So the duty can at most be a supportive one, and a defensive one will not be able to do those things often and with enough risk. At this point there have been zero roles excluded (but some duties A/D). But I suppose the ball winning midfielder nor the playmakers (if I want the RPM to truly be the “main conductor) will be getting the nod for this. The carrilero is probably not adventurous enough either. So this leaves us with the central midfielder, the box to box and the mezzala. The central midfielder support has zero presets which can be good, but not when you know what the player is supposed to do, box to box midfielder has roam which is great but the best of them all, the half space merchant, the “inside winger”, will be used. This is the mezzala and that will be my choice for this role. I added no PIs.
WdeE4CU.jpg

 

Mezzala pros and cons:
Pro’s
*Halfspace merchant - takes up good advanced positions.
*Defends high up the pitch.
*Creative.
*Positive mentality.

Con’s
*Due to aggressive positioning it might make us conceivable for counters.
*Defending high might add to this.
*Is there actually a need for more creative + positive players?

 

And lastly the holding player, or the destroyer. Some might call him the water carrier. The (defensive) running the other two does not do, this guy will have to do. So what does this mean? I want the player to be positionally aware, a good tackler and if he can play some expansive passes that will be a bonus, helping the RPM link defense and midfield will be a duty for this player. The player will be fielded in the centre of the DM strata. I do not want this player to be a playmaker which excludes the deeplying playmaker, RPM and the regista. Secondly I do not want this player to be a runner (attacking wise). This removes the defensive midfielder with support and the segundo volante is not an option in the central zone. Now there are three roles standing, the anchorman, the halfback and defensive midfielder defend. The anchor will pass with less risk, which means he will not play expansive passes. The halfback will drop too deep. Now there is only the defensive midfielder defend that is not excluded. No PIs were added.
54ilfHq.jpg


Defensive midfielder pros and cons:
Pro’s
*Holds position, important when most others have more expansive roles.
*Flexible role, not so many hard-coded behaviours.
*Balanced mentality, will not be too cautious.
*Does not dribble, speeds up the tempo.

Con’s
*Holds position, won’t interchange positions and combine with fluidity as others. 
*Will not help out the attack much.
*Pressing, will the player put in pressure soon enough? (due to lower mentality and more).

 

So this is the midfield trio:
XYfXlQN.jpg?1

 

That leaves us with this at this point:
SoYAzom.jpg?1

 

Player profiles, I have quite a lot of gifted midfielders that actually can play all of the roles. I will here show six with different unique selling points (might be due to attributes or PPMs). For starters, Rodrigo Betancour. Extremely well rounded, jack of all trades. Weaknesses you might say? No there is none. Model Citizen with 15 determination, 3 attributes under 12 (corners, long throws and penalties). Average for his mentals are 15, the same for the physicals.
nmEDMMS.jpg

 

Second man out, Dominik Szoboszlai. Fast, good vision, passing and first touch. Has great PPM for the MEZ role, but also decent for the RPM slot. Can also play in the DM slot versus weaker teams. The personality here is not the greatest but at 24yo it can still increase.
za0hz1U.jpg

 

Lewis Cook is a very talented playmaker. Also capable of playing all midfield positions. The PPM area is a bit clotted for my taste but at least they are all good for our style (more or less). Stand out attributes are balance, vision and the technical ones. Anticipation, teamwork and off the ball are all top standard. Resolute personality is also acceptable. Its a bit of a mystery that this man has only been called to the national team 40 times. But the competition for places is enormous. Mason Mount, James Garner and the former Manchester City profile Phil Foden who left for Barcelona bringing the club £119M (this was not my work).
VTeH47U.jpg

 

The fourth we will look closer at is Neymar. He does not play in the DM slot. His attributes are great versus weaker teams but he seldom starts versus top teams. Against the weaker teams he plays a lot and they always have problems containing his 20 flair and technique. The 18 first touch and dribbling aint bad either. The PPMs I have actually cut out because they are terrible! Neymar being a perfectionist is great too. The salary might be high, but PSG let me have him for free.
rXyoSmJ.jpg

 

Rodri is the most defensively balanced midfielder of this lot, only playing in the two more advanced positions if there is a crisis. Stand out abilities are positioning, decisions, antipacition and concentration. The PPMs are good for our style and his personality is professional with 13 determination. Rodri is also at times fielded in the heart of the defense.
VyUqqT9.jpg

 

I saved the player I like the most for last. Sebastian Savoldi, who I bought for Fulham. Developed him into a beast only to see my current employer meet his release clause. For those interested this is what I bought (the second player profile in that post). Today he is a complete player, even though he could use more flair and aggression. I tend to use him in the DM slot but he can offer something in the other roles too. Strengths are definitely the mentals but he also has an impressive physique. The resolute personality is acceptable and I'm a big fan of his PPMs (I have developed them). He was a big reason for me going to City (I had an offer from PSG too).
OotHc6u.jpg

Additional players used here are newgen Galeano and previously showed Bernardo Silva. Some players from the reserves (U23) also get a game at times.


Mentalities is something I will keep track of during this journey, so Far there is a striker with Very Attacking mentality and two wide men with positive mentalities. The three additions to this are two central midfielders with positive and a defensive midfielder with balanced.

Very Attacking (Treq).

Positive (IWFs) - Positive (IWs)

Positive (MEZs) - Positive (RPM)
Balanced (DMd)

or easier to grip:

VA

POS - POS

POS - POS
BAL

Later the back four and the goalkeeper will be covered.
 

Edited by Djuicer

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15 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

 


Mentalities is something I will keep track of during this journey, so Far there is a striker with Very Attacking mentality and two wide men with positive mentalities. The three additions to this are two central midfielders with positive and a defensive midfielder with balanced.

Very Attacking (Treq).

Positive (IWFs) - Positive (IWs)

Positive (MEZs) - Positive (RPM)
Balanced (DMd)

or easier to grip:

VA

POS - POS

POS - POS
BAL

Later the back four and the goalkeeper will be covered.
 

great post mate and very helpfull this mentality explaining is. Many people, like me, dont even see that particular description in the role. My teams are playing so much clear in their positioning and interchanching (?) now. Not a native speaker too. Thanks a lot!

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

great post mate and very helpfull this mentality explaining is. Many people, like me, dont even see that particular description in the role. My teams are playing so much clear in their positioning and interchanching (?) now. Not a native speaker too. Thanks a lot!

I can strongly recomend Tad 20. Its my favourite skin of this version (20). If you would like to be able to see the mentality. Im also a fan of the rensi skin (not sure this has the mentality part though).  Have you found better balance between mentalitys? example if both players on a flank are close mentality wise the will also combine more/better.

 

AFAIK the things affecting individual mentality is first team mentality, then duty, strata and last overlap/underlap and focus of the play. The individual mentality really makes more diffrence than the team mentality and with correct roles you can use almost any mentality to create which ever playing style you prefer.

Edited by Djuicer

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Another great analysis 👍 Was just what is the custom skin you use for your player attribute pics? Looks really neat. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Djuicer said:

I can strongly recomend Tad 20. Its my favourite skin of this version (20). If you would like to be able to see the mentality. Im also a fan of the rensi skin (not sure this has the mentality part though). 

I have tried a lot of skins for this version, but this is my fav (tad 20). Im also a fan of work the space’s version of tcs skin. @crusadertsar

Edited by Djuicer

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i tried to use your example of one very attacking mentality player, the Mez(a), surrounded by positive mentality roles. I use a f9 so there is a balanced mentality in the mix. Also had one wb in attacking duty and mentality. It's rolling m8. I suppose this is what they call balance most of the people here, or it includes that thing too. 

Do you get one two's in front of the box and horizontal passes in the box? I get my WB(a) in great positions to do it but with WBIB i can't make full use of it. Of course maybe the roles surrounding him might influence his decisions, not that he's great at decision making but it seems the natural to cross.

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14 hours ago, MadOnion said:

And this is why it's important to look as player's mentality and not just team mentality. I've achieved great success when my IW's have "get into opposition area" trait. They will become goalscorers, but don't tend to be as "selfish" as Inside Forwards.

I had a player like this actually who was shocking as an Inside Forward but with this trait was a completely different player played as an Inverted Winger. Scorer and creator. I didn't realise at first until I watched more closely and could see how influential he was within the bigger picture of things. He linked well with my False 9 in that system. He did have excellent off the ball ratings too which helped I think.

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Really enjoyed this thread. I like to create overloads so your IWF role really interests me. What training schedules do you use for both senior and youth squads. And how do you develop your youth players to implement this style of play?

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KUTGW Djuicer. Enjoying your threads and a welcome addition to the forums :thup:

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

i tried to use your example of one very attacking mentality player, the Mez(a), surrounded by positive mentality roles. I use a f9 so there is a balanced mentality in the mix. Also had one wb in attacking duty and mentality. It's rolling m8. I suppose this is what they call balance most of the people here, or it includes that thing too. 

Do you get one two's in front of the box and horizontal passes in the box? I get my WB(a) in great positions to do it but with WBIB i can't make full use of it. Of course maybe the roles surrounding him might influence his decisions, not that he's great at decision making but it seems the natural to cross.

Balance is they key to any sucessfull setup, and that often icludes some extremes (VD, D, C, BAL, P, A, VA) but atleast I try to keep most players near the ubold mentalitys.

I have a goal that I shall try to show, must learn to create a gif and find some time. Actually this goal made me feel like, yes Im done. I won. JDP complete. (Or something like that ;)). My full backs often take on opposition and passes inside the area. I  suppose one being Alphonse Davies dosen't hurt.

 

1 hour ago, stuartlaw11 said:

Really enjoyed this thread. I like to create overloads so your IWF role really interests me. What training schedules do you use for both senior and youth squads. And how do you develop your youth players to implement this style of play?

It makes me happy that you liked it.  The IWF and IW are great for overloads.  I have recently taken control of the club and the training is something Im not that good at, anyhow i have started creating some schedules which will be discussed later. The inspiration for this was Mikaelinhos post regarding training. The goal is to get well rounded players in the techincal and mental area. Physique is a bonus. PPMs that fits the roles I use. Common ones are get further forward. Plays one-twos and comes deep to collect ball. Its also important that the PPMs matches the style Im trying to create.

 

58 minutes ago, Justified said:

KUTGW Djuicer. Enjoying your threads and a welcome addition to the forums :thup:

:hammer:

Edited by Djuicer

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Really nice write up.  I enjoyed reading through that, good stuff.

 

2 hours ago, Amazingortega said:

Really nice thread thanks for sharing 

Thank you both!

 

I made a darn gif! and got it to work, yea the "production" will need some work but its something. This is a great goal IMO (not the one I talked about earlier though). Op. Team? current champions Liverpool.

40c0167dc998cf4c9b773a465311ff51.gif

Edited by Djuicer

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About player mentalities, these are some topics discussing it. For everyone who want to find that side of tactical creation may be helpful. The discussion in there was for me and under communication with the OP, here they are. 

 

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Posted (edited)

In the spirit of @DimitrisLars post I will add some more. I know some are old but the concepts at large is still valid.

No pics left, still fantastic.

 

A mad tactic that seems to work. That squad though..

 

The most current of those threads. All concepts (?) are still possible to do.

Edited by Djuicer

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2 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

(Do you make your choice for the GK and the back four?)

Yes, @herne79s work is always good.

 

the back four and gk part is a wip. There is a lot on my plate at this time but I have completed the roles part. There is just parts regarding the players and maybe some concepts I need to finish. Hopefully It will be completed before monday.

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The explanation in the OP is that he wanted an attack duty and that is not available with a False Nine.

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18 hours ago, sniper234 said:

Why Trequartista and not False Nine?

 

17 hours ago, Clifton said:

The explanation in the OP is that he wanted an attack duty and that is not available with a False Nine.

Clifton is correct :brock:

But I do use two tactics and will cover the other one (not as in depth) later. It is my awayt actic (or underdog) and it uses the false nine.

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On 30/04/2020 at 11:03, Djuicer said:

 

I The inspiration for this was Mikaelinhos post regarding training. The goal is to get well rounded players in the techincal and mental area. Physique is a bonus. PPMs that fits the roles I use. Common ones are get further forward. Plays one-twos and comes deep to collect ball. Its also important that the PPMs matches the style Im trying to create.

Not going to lie that thread was brilliant too, thanks for sharing.

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@Djuicer

Nice thread. Great job. I like the in depth explanations and logic behind your choices. I'm a long time Barca fan since 1990 (because of Stoichkov who I know personally) and I generally always play some version of possession football.

I'm also using a lot of Support duty roles with Trequartista at ST in one version and False 9 in another version. I even have a Strikerless version as well. However, I have gone for IF-S roles rather than IWs. I like the more attacking nature of the role. My roles in defense are SK-S, 2 BPDs and 2 CWB-S. It's the roles in midfield where I change often depending on what I want each match and how I want to dominate. It also depends on the formation of the opponents and how I can create the advantage which I can then use. 

My DM roles tend to rotate between DM-D and HB-D. For MCR I use AP-S or DLP-D. At MCL is where I use a lot of different roles - MEZ-S, AP-S, AP-A or CM-A. My general rule is to use at least 1 playmaker and never more than 2 (in midfield). HB-D + DLP-S + AP-S is a combo that really focusses on keeping the ball and dominating possession in midfield. On the other hand, DM-D + AP-S + CM-A gives me more attacking punch at opening defenses. 

As for TIs, pretty similar to yours with a few exceptions. I use much shorter passing with normal tempo. If needed I add Overlaps. In transition, I use Hold Shape but I remove it if I need a goal. And distribution is to CBs. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, yonko said:

@Djuicer

Nice thread. Great job. I like the in depth explanations and logic behind your choices. I'm a long time Barca fan since 1990 (because of Stoichkov who I know personally) and I generally always play some version of possession football.

I'm also using a lot of Support duty roles with Trequartista at ST in one version and False 9 in another version. I even have a Strikerless version as well. However, I have gone for IF-S roles rather than IWs. I like the more attacking nature of the role. My roles in defense are SK-S, 2 BPDs and 2 CWB-S. It's the roles in midfield where I change often depending on what I want each match and how I want to dominate. It also depends on the formation of the opponents and how I can create the advantage which I can then use. 

My DM roles tend to rotate between DM-D and HB-D. For MCR I use AP-S or DLP-D. At MCL is where I use a lot of different roles - MEZ-S, AP-S, AP-A or CM-A. My general rule is to use at least 1 playmaker and never more than 2 (in midfield). HB-D + DLP-S + AP-S is a combo that really focusses on keeping the ball and dominating possession in midfield. On the other hand, DM-D + AP-S + CM-A gives me more attacking punch at opening defenses. 

As for TIs, pretty similar to yours with a few exceptions. I use much shorter passing with normal tempo. If needed I add Overlaps. In transition, I use Hold Shape but I remove it if I need a goal. And distribution is to CBs. 

This is all very close to my setup, guessing they play out very much the same, I would like to have responded  much more comprehensive on this but it will spoil too much of my next post :)

 

edit: about stoichkov, was he a regular smoker as an active? Impressive being so awesome as a player and still being supposedly not all that serious about nutritioning and such. This might ocf just be roumors..

Edited by Djuicer

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6 hours ago, Djuicer said:

This is all very close to my setup, guessing they play out very much the same, I would like to have responded  much more comprehensive on this but it will spoil too much of my next post :)

 

edit: about stoichkov, was he a regular smoker as an active? Impressive being so awesome as a player and still being supposedly not all that serious about nutritioning and such. This might ocf just be roumors..

No, I don't want you to spoil too much of your next post. I'm curious to see more of your set up, including training. 

Stoichkov was not a regular smoker but he did smoke occasionally, especially towards the end of his career. 

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14 hours ago, yonko said:

@Djuicer

Nice thread. Great job. I like the in depth explanations and logic behind your choices. I'm a long time Barca fan since 1990 (because of Stoichkov who I know personally) and I generally always play some version of possession football.

I'm also using a lot of Support duty roles with Trequartista at ST in one version and False 9 in another version. I even have a Strikerless version as well. However, I have gone for IF-S roles rather than IWs. I like the more attacking nature of the role. My roles in defense are SK-S, 2 BPDs and 2 CWB-S. It's the roles in midfield where I change often depending on what I want each match and how I want to dominate. It also depends on the formation of the opponents and how I can create the advantage which I can then use. 

My DM roles tend to rotate between DM-D and HB-D. For MCR I use AP-S or DLP-D. At MCL is where I use a lot of different roles - MEZ-S, AP-S, AP-A or CM-A. My general rule is to use at least 1 playmaker and never more than 2 (in midfield). HB-D + DLP-S + AP-S is a combo that really focusses on keeping the ball and dominating possession in midfield. On the other hand, DM-D + AP-S + CM-A gives me more attacking punch at opening defenses. 

As for TIs, pretty similar to yours with a few exceptions. I use much shorter passing with normal tempo. If needed I add Overlaps. In transition, I use Hold Shape but I remove it if I need a goal. And distribution is to CBs. 

Enjoyed this post & I like how you change the midfield roles around depending on what you want from a game. It seems the games go to for a possession system is usually DM-D / DLP-S / Mez-S. Typically what you'll find Guardiola / Klopp etc using to start games when you play against them.

With "much shorter passing" on a positive mentality, doesn't it naturally lower the tempo? 

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14 hours ago, yonko said:

@Djuicer

Nice thread. Great job. I like the in depth explanations and logic behind your choices. I'm a long time Barca fan since 1990 (because of Stoichkov who I know personally) and I generally always play some version of possession football.

I'm also using a lot of Support duty roles with Trequartista at ST in one version and False 9 in another version. I even have a Strikerless version as well. However, I have gone for IF-S roles rather than IWs. I like the more attacking nature of the role. My roles in defense are SK-S, 2 BPDs and 2 CWB-S. It's the roles in midfield where I change often depending on what I want each match and how I want to dominate. It also depends on the formation of the opponents and how I can create the advantage which I can then use. 

My DM roles tend to rotate between DM-D and HB-D. For MCR I use AP-S or DLP-D. At MCL is where I use a lot of different roles - MEZ-S, AP-S, AP-A or CM-A. My general rule is to use at least 1 playmaker and never more than 2 (in midfield). HB-D + DLP-S + AP-S is a combo that really focusses on keeping the ball and dominating possession in midfield. On the other hand, DM-D + AP-S + CM-A gives me more attacking punch at opening defenses. 

As for TIs, pretty similar to yours with a few exceptions. I use much shorter passing with normal tempo. If needed I add Overlaps. In transition, I use Hold Shape but I remove it if I need a goal. And distribution is to CBs. 

Do you find much shorter passing giving you the teamplay you need up front too? I've been trying to make up a young team in Lazio and switched to shorter but much shorter gives me better combinations. Also in your begining set up, do you use max of one attacking duty for the fluidity of the team? 

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Posted (edited)

This is the fourth part of the series, in sweden we recently celebrated Walpurgis night, anyhow. This post will cover the back four and the goalkeeper. Show the full mentality structure and dig in to some more concepts of Positional play (JDP). Pending on time and more aspects there will be some small sample analysis (11 games) here or in a future post. In the game I have now played around 6 months (38 games). Still unbeaten.
 
I will list some creators that I personally find among the best. People with great insights and thougts.

Spoiler


Now is the time to get this going, shall we? 


Salida Lavolpiana. Let's start with an other key part of JDP, which i'm not really using in this piece (but its something the DMd does at times), to fully achieve this you must have a HB or a playmaker in the DM slot in my opinion. FM Rensie gives good food for thought. In the future I probably will try this.

Salida Lavolpiana is a variation in which the central defenders fan out wide and a central midfielder drops into the resulting space. This briefly creates a back 3 in addition to having the goalkeeper as a base for the progression of the ball.
-Adin Osmanbasic
 
“Positional Play consists of generating superiorities out of the defensive line against those who are pressing you. Everything is much easier when the first progression of the ball is clean.”
– Juanma Lillo

“Pass to the next lines of play.”
– JL

“Do you know how Barcelona win the ball back so quickly? It’s because they don’t have to run back more than 10 metres as they never pass the ball more than 10 metres.”
– Johan Cruyff

All quotes comes from Adin Osmanbasics excellent work over at Spielverlagerung.com

Regarding Salida Lavolpiana it's something that in my mind Busquets mastered at Barcelona during Peps tenure. Later with Guardiola at the helm in Bavaria Xabi Alonso also excelled doing this job. Greatly influencing play with a more varied passing-style than what (short passing) Busquets used.

The Cruyff quote is something that will be even more relevant for the away tactic I use, it's largely the same as this one but some changes in TIs and some roles, more on that later.

In the game, which PPM’s might we be looking at here? How can we get my team to really play out of the back? It is all relative with factors such as roles, system, style and more mattering most. I personally like one, two or sometimes even more of those PPMs in my back four and the deepest midfielder. Something that can be good is for example Rodri’s stops play. But that won’t be something you want in every system nor situation.
*Brings ball out of defense.
*Tries to play out of trouble.
*Runs with the ball through centre/Left wing/Right wing.
*Pass alternating PPMs (not more than two). 
*Comes deep to collect the ball.

If one of the players preferably the DM or one of the central defenders can be a leader and a bit more stable that's something that clearly can give an advantage. Good PPMs for this would be.
*Gets crowd going.
*Argues with the officials.
*Marks opponents tightly.
*Stay back at all times, but I feel this one i situational. Im not really a big fan of PPM’s that restricts behaviour.

Let's move on the the roles now. There are actually just 3 more roles to be presented for the following five positions, both full backs and center backs have the same roles. We start out wide, the full backs must be somewhat responsible hence I will not use attacking duties. This removes FBa, WBa, IWBa and CWBa. Secondly, given the responsibility I want the wide defenders to take, I do not want them to just sit back and protect. Which means no role that only comes with defend duty will be used (no nonsense full back). This also removes all defensive duty alternatives for roles that come with this option. The rules standing now are FBs, WBs, IWBs and CWBs. According to JDP two players ideally shall always remain in all 5 (wing x2, half space x2, centre) vertical zones. This means that the IWBs is out of the question (it will move inside too much). The standard full back will probably be to conservative overall. Both roles still standing are valid. The WBs is a good role for what I want, but I think the complete wing-back is better for JDP. Adding more players who are roaming is something useful trying to play possession football. The CWBs can and will also cover much of the wing by himself, allowing the IWFs and IWs to focus more on scoring and creating chances. I added one PI for each but they are not the same, for the right CWBs I added cross more often. The left CWBs was given the shoot less often PI. The reasoning for this was personal and fits well with each players PPMs and attributes. (This shows the right sided CWBs)
ToQRYQ8.jpg

Complete wing-back Pros and cons:
Pros’:
*Can cover a flank all alone.
*Creative for a player in the back/defence strata.
*Roams from position.
*Positive mentality.

Con’s:
*If the CWBs are covering the whole flank, there will be space for opposition to counter.
*Creativity is good, but that close to the own penalty area. Is it worth it?
*Roaming, Is this really something you want a defender to do?
*The mentality, is it safe enough?

Next up, the central defenders. Important aspect here is firstly the most basic one. Those guys must be able to safeguard Ederson and keep opposition away. This means they must be competent defenders. For the central defenders that's not all though, as stated by Juanma Lillo the defenders must be able to pass the ball forward to the next line. This means my defenders will not be the standard central defender, they are too cautious with the ball. I'm not going to achieve what I want with the hoof-balling no nonsense center back either. That leaves me with just the ball playing defender. This is something a lot of players might find controversial due to the high risk and partly contradictory to the POD TI. Still for me, if I shall be able to create a progressive style without a playmaker fielded deeper than the central midfield strata this role is a must, just not for one of the CB but for both of them. To be able to bypass pressing opponents effectively on both sides. Using both the highest possible defensive line and the offside trap means both BPD will be given the same duty, and as you probably can guess they won’t be stoppers or told to cover so they will be given the defend duty. Here there will be no added PIs.
4Lf37pY.jpg

Ball playing defender pros and cons.
Pro’s:
*Adventurous for a CB.
*May act as a quarterback.
*Still supposed to act as a standard CB wo. The ball.
*Balanced mentality


Con’s:
*Two BPDs might be too much. Might kill possession numbers.
*The risk taken so deep and close to goal, Ederson will get unwanted surprises.
*Balanced mentality added to this, it's quite attacking for central defenders.

So this is my back four.
lzhuJKn.jpg?1

The last and final role for the hometactic. The Goalkeeper. If you want to succeed with any kind of possession game you can not rely on just 11 players being able to take part in the passing game. You will need all twelve. This means this position won’t be the standard keeper. The sweeper keeper comes with three possible duties. Defend, Support and Attacking and I do really like the locked in PIs that come with both attacking and support duties but on attack, my keeper gets a very attacking mentality and that seems just silly. On support he gets attacking and that's still too positive for me. With a defend duty the goalkeeper will be balanced in this system (positive mentality and focus play through the middle affects his personal mentality) and that is what I will use. To get the keeper to still be closer to other duties I have opted to use two PIs. More direct passing and take more risk
XkvFcYV.jpg

Sweeper Keeper Pros and Cons.
Pro’s
*Will help the high defensive line by leaving his area. Rushing out and one-on-ones is important.
*Can recycle possession.
*With the PIs and the TI distribute quickly the SKd will be able to start counters to catch opposition off guard.
*Balanced mentality. Risk won’t be extreme, but still taken at times.

Con’s:
*It's a keeper, the main job is to stop shots.
*Can be rounded by quick forwards if he ventures too far out.
*Direct passing + more risky passes will lead to him losing possession and also as the last man it will cost us clean sheets at times.

Here is the keeper.
KzEZyzZ.jpg?1

Now I will show some of the key players, following the same order as before, CWBs, BPDd and SKd. First out will be the player I think is the weakest link in the whole eleven. Still this is a well rounded player with few or no weaknesses. It's just that he doesn't really stand out in any aspect except for his pace and the great crosses. Yet this is a stable and competent player. The resolute personality is acceptable and science this screen he have learned cross the ball early. This is not something that is a given for JDP, but I feel that it might mix things up a little, all over sudden there is someone crossing from deep, it might catch the opposition's defenders out of position. The player is Reece James.
lF1FkXh.jpg

Next out is the one I consider to be my best defender, a perfectionist with 17 determination and someone that will lead with example on the pitch. He has a lot of good PPMs for a solid defender and leader. His attributes are amazing with no flaws even though jumping and heading could be higher but 14 is enough, especially considering our front foot defending. The three I like the most are probably marking, leadership and concentration, but I could easily have picked three completely different attributes. Name of this portugese international is Ruben Dias.
X8prc9h.jpg

Partner in crime to Dias is a completely different profile. This player possibly has the most JDP friendly PPMs you can find in a central defender. The current season is his ninth in the club, slowly getting closer to that testimonial. John Stones is his name and he is a spirited individual with 13 determination. He has developed nicely and has almost no flaws either, even though he could have been stronger (still 13). My favourite attributes are probably composure, passing and tackling. The former two will add to his ability to bring the ball out of defence and his tendency to try to play out of  trouble.
augsWxR.jpg

The last part of my back four is the former Bayern München player Alphonso Davies. He’s lightning fast, works hard, good dribbler and aggressive, and at the same time he’s being resolute. PPMs are good for an attacking full back and even though he has some defensive shortcomings (9 marking, 10 tackling is not exactly champions league level) this is a player I really feel adds something to the team and at just 24 years of age there is still time for him to develop to a more stable and secure defender.
gbIi9kG.jpg

I'm having one reserve defender for every position but they do not really compete with those guys, or at least not at this time. Worth of mention is Sergino Dest who is competent and actually not that far off Reece James. I will mention one more player here though, I also own £37.5M valued Strahinja Pavlovic who also gets his games every now and then.

Last one I will show is the new/re/-gen Romuald Fournier. Not a starter now, he is still very raw but with correct training I think he can replace Stones or Dias in the future, I would even consider him for a CWBs slot. He is 19 years and a perfectionist with good mentals and impressive physique. PPMs are decent and both Tixi and my scout ranks him highly.
TfSUVRR.jpg

Last man out in the whole team is Ederson, he is a fantastic sweeper keeper with skills on the ball that probably are unmatched by any other keeper or what about 20 kicking, 17 passing, 15 first touch and technique. This guy would have been able to take place in my own midfield instead of being kept in the net. As a shot-stopper he is decent but not one of the greatest. Still he’s not bad in any attribute important for that either it's just that he is not otherworldly at the actual shot stopping. Ederson is a spirited guy with 16 determination. He has one PPM and I think it's something that adds to his game considering he has 18 throwing and 17 vision and 16 decisions. 
BdFBlAm.jpg

For backup we have Zack Steffen who is a competent number two and can fill in when called upon, as a shot-stopper he is not that far off from Ederson, but considering Ederson is a playmaker that can save shots. It is not really any competition for the first spot. The third man will probably not see much first team action so here I'm having Gavin Bazunu, mostly because he adds to the homegrown quota. Speaking of which I'm still owning Morgan Rogers, Ante Palaversa, Finley Burns, Louie Molden, Liam Delap, Felix Correira and a few others. I recently sold Tommy Doyle due to that he was never going to be anything more than a stop gap solution. Some other players that are under contract but spending their time at other locations at the moment are Cristian Pulisic and Joaquin Correa. Adding to that my U23 is having quite a lot of wonderkids.

That's a reasonable squad assessment to give you some understanding of my players, strengths and weaknesses. Overall the squad is very good in my opinion. I will now show the full tactic before I will try to explain some more thoughts about mentality.
w2Pw5S7.jpg

 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
Have some great ideas regarding playmakers, structure and spacing.

1. My playmaker should have a positive mentality; most commonly in the 10-12 range but I'll go up to around 15.
 -I hate having a cautious playmaker playing backwards and sideways passes.
2. My holding midfielder should have the same mentality as my centre backs for defensive compactness.
3. My playmaker should ideally be my deepest midfielder, optimising passing options ahead of him.
#3 is italic as it's most negotiable.
Sometimes meeting #1 and #2 means I have to play a holding midfielder behind my playmaker (in more Structured systems).
The mentality parts are of course not the same for me ( @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Is still on FM18). But overall this is something I find very useful. 

Spoiler

Edit: I think I messed this up. I will try to correct the organization of this. /Edit out Edit2 think this is more correct /Edit2out

For me to get the DMd, and both BPDd to get the same mentality and a balanced one, the focus play through the middle was a must. With the new roles it gives me this spread of mentalities across the team.

Very Attacking (TRQ.)
Positive (IWFs) - Positive (IWs)
Positive (MEZ) - Positive (RPM)
Balanced (DMd)
Positive (CWBs) - Balanced (BPDd) - Balanced (BPDd) - Positive (CWBs)
Balanced (SKd)

Or the one with the better overview.
VA
POS-POS
POS-POS
BAL
POS-BAL-BAL-POS
BAL

Next post will cover the first 11 league games numbers and I will show and analyse some gameplay. After that I will show my second or away tactic which is roughly the same but some changes with roles and some TIs. I will also share some thoughts regarding training and the building of a “winning environment”, or club DNA. Probably this will be divided into more than one post. The training Im currently using will need some more actual playing time to show if it really works, they (the schedules) won’t be shown if those green little arrows don’t spread like a wildfire in the team.

 

I can give you this as a glance of the football we produce when it all clicks, this is a goal I consider shows a perfect goal from my team facing qualified opponents in Arsenal. The game actually ended 2-2 but I did not really care after this. It is my RPM (I think, the game is not running, can not control at this point) who hits a great diagonal pass to the LCWBs who cuts it back to IWFs who then finds the TRQ who simply places the shot.
9c4d39e3aea1755b77a88e8e24981577.gif

 

Edited by Djuicer

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Great post Djuicer!

Do you feel not selecting Ederson as a SKsu instead of one of the BPDde's could be a good idea? 17 vision for a GK is just insane :D 

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20 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Let's move on the the roles now. There are actually just 3 more roles to be presented for the following five positions, both full backs and center backs have the same roles. We start out wide, the full backs must be somewhat responsible hence I will not use attacking duties. This removes FBa, WBa, IWBa and CWBa. Secondly, given the responsibility I want the wide defenders to take, I do not want them to just sit back and protect. Which means no role that only comes with defend duty will be used (no nonsense full back). This also removes all defensive duty alternatives for roles that come with this option. The rules standing now are FBs, WBs, IWBs and CWBs. According to JDP two players ideally shall always remain in all 5 (wing x2, half space x2, centre) vertical zones. This means that the IWBs is out of the question (it will move inside too much). The standard full back will probably be to conservative overall. Both roles still standing are valid. The WBs is a good role for what I want, but I think the complete wing-back is better for JDP. Adding more players who are roaming is something useful trying to play possession football. The CWBs can and will also cover much of the wing by himself, allowing the IWFs and IWs to focus more on scoring and creating chances. I added one PI for each but they are not the same, for the right CWBs I added cross more often. The left CWBs was given the shoot less often PI. The reasoning for this was personal and fits well with each players PPMs and attributes. (This shows the right sided CWBs)
ToQRYQ8.jpg

Complete wing-back Pros and cons:
Pros’:
*Can cover a flank all alone.
*Creative for a player in the back/defence strata.
*Roams from position.
*Positive mentality.

Con’s:
*If the CWBs are covering the whole flank, there will be space for opposition to counter.
*Creativity is good, but that close to the own penalty area. Is it worth it?
*Roaming, Is this really something you want a defender to do?
*The mentality, is it safe enough?

 

That's the part i was waiting for atm. The question i have is, aren't you affraid of them dribbling and losing possession? it happened to me a lot with WB on Attack Duty and i hate it when that happens. Of course if you have dribblers+tries way out of trouble it might be incredible :) 

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3 minutes ago, Justified said:

Great post Djuicer!

Do you feel not selecting Ederson as a SKsu instead of one of the BPDde's could be a good idea? 17 vision for a GK is just insane :D 

That might be worth a shot I suppose. Even though an attacking (mentality) keeper is crazy :D

SKsu 

cd (dias) bpd (stones) should work!

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He might top your assists at the end, who knows ;) But in all honesty that's what I would do, gives you a bit of diversity. Hopefully they don't bypass the playmaker in midfield too much.

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2 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

That's the part i was waiting for atm. The question i have is, aren't you affraid of them dribbling and losing possession? it happened to me a lot with WB on Attack Duty and i hate it when that happens. Of course if you have dribblers+tries way out of trouble it might be incredible :) 

Yeah, sometimes we do. Seldom A.Davies though, James I did consider for another role but I think the upside is still worth more to the JDP style than the risk of conceading some more goals. I have always tried to balance out JDP vs results. What can i sacrifce? When does it stop being close to JDP? When does it just become too much? Hard questions to consider.

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4 minutes ago, Justified said:

He might top your assists at the end, who knows ;) But in all honesty that's what I would do, gives you a bit of diversity. Hopefully they don't bypass the playmaker in midfield too much.

I will try this and get back to you! Hopefully I will play some games tomorrow, havent really got any games the latest 5 days.. or well.. one cup game where we crushed Arsenal 4-0.

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3 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Yeah, sometimes we do. Seldom A.Davies though, James I did consider for another role but I think the upside is still worth more to the JDP style than the risk of conceading some more goals. I have always tried to balance out JDP vs results. What can i sacrifce? When does it stop being close to JDP? When does it just become too much? Hard questions to consider.

i think everybody trying to play JDP has been in an extremely nervous period recently considering the posts searching for help here :D  :D 

Do you use a DLP, instead of the RPM or RPM witha player who's got comes deeper to get ball, when facing a better opponent? 

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Lovely write up detailing your reasoning behind each decision. 

It's giving me that itch to play the game again as I have fallen out of love with it recently trying to futilely solve the problem of AI teams that play peak tiki taka in their own half racking up at least hundreds of more passes than my team, sometimes 200 or a couple times 300. 

Although I have tried so many things already, your inspiring post has given me new ideas to try, so I'm eagerly waiting for your next post and numbers. 

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3 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

Do you use a DLP, instead of the RPM or RPM witha player who's got comes deeper to get ball, when facing a better opponent? 

No, but I would use the away version of this tactic. Its very similar with some changed roles, some Ti and Pi. No DLP though. I would probably use Rodri deepest, Savoldi as RPM and Betancour as the MEZ if they are equally as good and us and we are away team but Im probably the strongest team in the div (or atleast as strong as Liverpool). Barcelona and R.madrid might be better than us if you look at squads.

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an other question, just to keep it rolling, since you use extremely high LOE but you dont have close down more on your IWs, does extremely urgent pressing compensate for that? Cause the pressing attitude on the description sais that its activated as soon as the enemy goes beyond your LOE.

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il y a 58 minutes, Djuicer a dit :

Or the one with the better overview.
VA
POS-POS
POS-POS
BAL
POS-BAL-BAL-POS
BAL

The PI " focus play through the middle" increase the mentality for your DM and your CB. Did you notice that or its an error and its doesn’t makes difference for you ?

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2 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

Enjoyed this post & I like how you change the midfield roles around depending on what you want from a game. It seems the games go to for a possession system is usually DM-D / DLP-S / Mez-S. Typically what you'll find Guardiola / Klopp etc using to start games when you play against them.

With "much shorter passing" on a positive mentality, doesn't it naturally lower the tempo? 

For me the best combination for controlling possession is HB-D with DLP-S and AP-S. The MEZ stays wider and that sometimes allows opponents to cut off passes towards him. The AP gravitates towards the ball and together with the DLP they form nice passing combos to transition the ball or circulate possession. It forces the AI to get really aggressive with the tackling and pressure, which in turn results in red card eventually for someone. :D

 

With Much Shorter Passing the tempo is described as Slightly Lower on Positive Mentality but the notch is in the middle of the line, therefore normal for the mentality. This is what I meant. 

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2 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

Do you find much shorter passing giving you the teamplay you need up front too? I've been trying to make up a young team in Lazio and switched to shorter but much shorter gives me better combinations. Also in your begining set up, do you use max of one attacking duty for the fluidity of the team? 

Yes much shorter passing gives me the play I want. If you look at the individual player instructions, the passing for the front 5 players is not at the lowest settings. You can lower it even more though if you wish.

What do you mean by "the beginning set up"? Generally I tend to have the Trequartista as my Attack duty player. But I can use AP-A or CM-A in midfield on occasion. 

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